TIMESPIRAL in TYPE 4

[WhiteWolf]

darkmindtone: I would do the following:

- Keep Bringer and Colossus because they're free and lose the rest. I play Living Hive, Penumbra Wurm and Gigapede in my stack but they would be in the first load of cards to go probably. I sometimes think some cards like Penumbra Wurm and Gigapede stay in my stack because they have been there from the beginning an they've become something of a 'given'. Actually, maybe there not that strong.
- Lose the Tome and Grimoire (if you already have other and better drawing). They are somewhat slow. Again I play them myself but they are in the 'could be cut' heap.
-  Meddlings Kids I never tried but it seems too conditional. Etched Oracle I play but is underwhelming and definitely cuttable.
- I would keep Future Sight and Ach Hans run because they're very strong, especially Ach Hans Run if you play firebreathers. Dreams of the Dead is pretty conditional (white or black creature) and so is Yet Another Aether Vortex (also symmetrical). I do play the last one in my 'chaos' or 'critical mass' stack however because it's loads of fun.

The beacons are strong I think. The conditional hard counterspells however I find are not powerful enough, hence don't have that 'Type 4 feeling' to me.

Ixidron: kind of a mass removal and big creature (depending on the amount of players) in one but it draws some fire. Being beaten to dead by a horde of 2/2's is an ugly dead. I f you like these kind of things I think Reiver Demon is better. Maybe a combo with your own Morph creatures but that's again pretty conditional.

WhiteWolf

[Mr. Type 4]

I think White wolf is right on for most of this stuff.  My stack, too is removal heavy, and I've found that my creatures need to do one of the following:
1. Dodge at least 50% of the removal or have some kind of sick effect when it hits (like Nicol Bolas)  Regenerating, protection from colors, untargetable, indestructable are all good qualities.  In addition to dodging the removal, they need to be pretty damn strong.  The better it is at dodging the removal (Mist Dragon is probably the best) the weaker the creature itself can be.  Even here, though, I've found that large beaters that don't do much else (see Autochron Wurm) are just not very interesting, and don't really get picked very highly.  In Type 4 you can win in any number of ways, it's not necessary to have a big beater to finish the game, you're better off with something that...

2. Can do something amazing. Creatures that have a strong effect on the board or gameplay are the best creatures.  Strong utility cards like Azorius Guildmage or Glory are among the most sought after in the stack.  I'm under the personal opinion that there are enough creatures that fall into this category, that you won't need too many from the other. 

I cut cards like Gigapede and Penumbra Wurm a long time ago, and no one has ever suggested I bring them back.

I like Yet Another AEther Vortex, but honestly, it's just not that good.  People are apprenhensive about playing cards that are so symmetrical.  I cut it from my stack a while ago.

The strength of Ach! Hans Run is directly proportional to the number of killer dudes you play with.  It's much better in White Wolf's stack (firebreathers!!) than it is in mine.  The closest thing I have to a firebreather is Phage, but you won't be using Ack! Hans on her. 

I'm not a big fan of Future Sight.  It gets clogged up a lot of times and when you have it, everyone knows what you have in your hand.  Still, I'm pretty sure that what else is in your stack will makes this better/weaker.  Just like Ach! Hans.

@Harlequin & Critacal Mass deck players: Ixidron sounds like an awesome addition to a critical mass stack.

Reiterate Yeah, this card is awesome.  Of all the cards in Timespiral, this is the one that I feel will have a good home in just about ANY Type 4 stack.  Well, and Trickbind, too. 

[RaZe]

As it stands the card ratio for my Stack is...

300 Cards

100 Creatures
35 Counters
15 Enchantments
25 Artifacts
25 Wrath Effects
55 Spot Removal
5 Lands
10 Draw/Tutor
30 Misc/Broken Spells

Coldsnap wishlist as it stands [28]
* = probation status

Creatures [8]
- Teferi
- Ixidron
- Vesuvan Shapeshifter
- Voidmage Husher
- Bogardan Hellkite
- Kaervek, The Merciless [at worst, someone will take 1 dmg to get rid of it]
* Stuffy Doll [If it stays, Crimson Hellkite will not be cut]
* Lim-Dul - The Necromancer

Counters [4]
-Draining Whelk
-Spell Burst
-Trickbind
*Cancell

Wrath Effects [1]
- Squall Line

Spot Removal [8]

- Return to Dust
- Snap Back
- Wipe Away
- Dark Withering
- Sudden Death
- Krosan Grip
- Molder
- Phthisis

Misc/Broken Spell [3]
- Evangelize
- Reiterate
- Word of Seiziing

Chaos Stack [4]
- Restore Balance
- Living End
- Wheel of Fate
- Hyper Genesis

There are some easy changes like Vesuvan Shapeshifter - Vesuvan Doppleganger. Although I do disagree to the opinions about Penumbra Wurm not being 'strong'. Being able to get another free creature save of the maybe 6 cards that can rfg it is one of those lil card advantage that sometimes helps out to push through the last bit of extra damage through. Especially on the later part of the game where everyone has depleted most of their hands from the earlier threats. Or they can just counter it. But it's always frustrating to counter a simple 6/6 Tramplers considering the other things that are just waiting to come down. I do run Autochton Wurm [which WILL be cut] for one simple reason. Convoking a spell counts as an ACC.

I would like your opinions on some of these cards though.

Aven Fateshaper vs Tommorow, Azami's Familiar [4/5 Flying Body + Triggered Ability vs Deeper 'dig']
Blazing Archon [Seems to only give you a false sense of safely except on end-game where it's such a life-saver]
8 1/2 Tails vs Kira, The Glass Spinner [Maybe keep both?]
Greater Morphling vs Morphling [more a question of should I bother to keep Morphling?]
Konda, Lord of Eganjo. [If he had flying, he wouldn't be on this list]
Living Hive [Win more card?]
Palinchron
Silvos, Rogue Elemental [considering the new creatures from TS, does he still deserve a spot?]
Sister's of Stone Death [it's wicked good if it would get to attack, it hasn't EVER since Ravnica was relieased]
Arcane Denial vs Vanilla Counterspells [with such good cards, the card disadvantage is sometimes too retarded]


I will keep the ratio and cut the weakest cards among each category. If I was to increase the stack, it would go up to 360 as it's the lowest number [above 300] than you can evenly Solomon draft up to 6 players. But it's just quite frustrating to draft for 1 full hour sometimes. And having a 'small' stack really helps with having such a strong power level as almost every draw is good unless you drafted haphazardly without thinking about your threat:answer ratios.


Squall line might be borderling wrath effect but I have a house rule that purposely killing ALL players with a spell/effect results in that player losing. So no Spikes in my playgroup. Plus I already run Fault Line anyways.

Ixidron is going into my MS [Main Stack] as considering the creatures I have, it's rather them be 2/2 vanilla creatures than what they are. Plus, nothing beats Tempting Wurm in that slot.

Futuresight has always been a huge bomb whenever it stays for a few turns. [With me being the most notorious about it as I seem to be the Yugi [top-deck monster] among my playgroup.] I don't see ever cutting it from my stack.

[Luiggi]

Some other cards that haven't been mentioned and might be worth trying:

- Sudden Shock (depends on how many low-toughness utility creatures are in your stack)
- Avoid Fate (if you don't already have it)
- Ith, High Arcanist (another Maze of Ith effect, but attached to a body)
- Magus of the Mirror (might be too vulnerable [like Magus of the Jar and Magus of the Disk], but could be good)
- Sengir Nosferatu (similar to Mist Dragon in its unkillability, except it dies to Wrath effects)
- Thelonite Hermit (Deranged Hermit #2, except you can't abuse a CIP trigger)
- Vesuva (copies good lands or kills legendary ones)
- Careful Consideration (not much card advantage, but good card selection, as well as a discard outlet)
- Haunting Hymn (instant-speed discard; better if played on your turn, though)
- Smallpox (could be pretty busted)

Luis

[Mr. Type 4]

Ill answer Raze's first:

-Aven Fateshaper vs Tommorow, Azami's Familiar [4/5 Flying Body + Triggered Ability vs Deeper 'dig']
I play with Descendant of Soramaro, which isn't too exciting, but itsn't bad. These cards are decent because they are easy to resolve.  Still, they are easily on the edge of being cuttable.

Blazing Archon [Seems to only give you a false sense of safely except on end-game where it's such a life-saver]
I cut this guy, he didn't seem that strong.  He doesn't do much to keep hmself alive, and usually isn't too relevant.  He is an alright sized guy, though.

8 1/2 Tails vs Kira, The Glass Spinner [Maybe keep both?]
Haven't played with Kira, but I draft Tails pretty highly.  He's very good, IMO.

Greater Morphling vs Morphling [more a question of should I bother to keep Morphling?]
I've cut greater morphling a few times for being too strong, but he always finds his way back in.  I think regular morphling is pretty good, he beats for 5, doesn't tap, has infinite toughness, untargetable.

Konda, Lord of Eganjo. [If he had flying, he wouldn't be on this list]
I think this guy is boring.  Cut it a long time ago.

Living Hive [Win more card?]
Haven't ever played with this.  Seems ok, but not ultimately that exciting.

Palinchron
Seems boring.  Did you ever untap a land with this and have it be really cool?  I guess it's good that it returns to your hand, but then you have to play it again and stuff which seems pretty clunky.

Silvos, Rogue Elemental [considering the new creatures from TS, does he still deserve a spot?]
I cut this for being boring.

Sister's of Stone Death [it's wicked good if it would get to attack, it hasn't EVER since Ravnica was relieased]
The criteria for ANYTHING that you have to wait a turn to use is pretty high.  I've used this a few times to good effect, but I wouldn't say it's anyone's favorite.  Fairly cuttable.

Arcane Denial vs Vanilla Counterspells [with such good cards, the card disadvantage is sometimes too stupid]  I like Arcane Denial (combos with Mind's Eye, BTW).  I think it makes the person you counter feel less bad about getting countered.  Sometimes getting my spell countered is all the motivation I need to try to kill someone.  Persoanally, I prefer more interesting cards over less interesting ones any day of the week.

Your ratios look pretty good.  I don't know how mine breaks down anymore, but I know that back when I cared about ratios I felt that 10-15% counterspells was right.


Comments on Luiggi's picks:

- Sudden Shock (depends on how many low-toughness utility creatures are in your stack)
I'm not sure too many people will be able to justify this one, but it would have been a lot better if it weren't for that rule that you can activate Morphs in response to a split second card.


- Avoid Fate (if you don't already have it)
Good enough?

- Ith, High Arcanist (another Maze of Ith effect, but attached to a body) He seems fragile, but he is suspend whch makes his essentially a free play.  Not terrible, but somewhat eclipsed by the other goodness in the set.


- Magus of the Mirror (might be too vulnerable [like Magus of the Jar and Magus of the Disk], but could be good)
I used to have Reverse the Sands, which is objectively more powerful, but everyone seemed to think it was boring, myself included.  I'm afraid that whenever this is relevant it will be quickly killed, and that won't be too often.

- Sengir Nosferatu (similar to Mist Dragon in its unkillability, except it dies to Wrath effects)
I think that "dies to wrath effects" is big.  Still, this might be a better creature than a lot of things I've seen in people's type 4 decks over time, so I'm sure it will find a home in a lot of things.  Kevin Cron told me he thinks it will be really good in his stack, and that guy plays ALOT of type 4 (even more than I do, and I play at least once a week).  This is waaay weaker than Mist Dragin.

- Thelonite Hermit (Deranged Hermit #2, except you can't abuse a CIP trigger)
I think this is pretty good.  I put Fortune Theif in to test, but this is actually probably better as far as morphs go.

- Vesuva (copies good lands or kills legendary ones)
CIP TAPPED!  just kidding, I'm not sure that will make a big difference on this one.  Does anyone value lands enough in their stack to make this worth it?  Hmm, you can't respond to playing lands, so this could kill Dark Depths if they decided to leave it as a land for a while.  Still, seems marginal to me.

- Careful Consideration (not much card advantage, but good card selection, as well as a discard outlet)
I think this card is fine.  I play lost of dumb draw spells and dont think I need another, but if you dont have too many, this could be a good adition.

- Haunting Hymn (instant-speed discard; better if played on your turn, though)
Instant speed discard is pretty good in type 4 because you can catch people that can't respond.  There's no "in response Brainstorm" here. You can also use it on yourselfto discard Glory or something.  How effective is making someone discard 2?

- Smallpox (could be pretty busted)
This gets better in larger games, but it still isn't much more than a pumped up Innocent Blood.  I have really high standards for Sorceries so I probably won't include this, but some of you might feel like it would be good to have more ways to deal with Indestrucatbles and such.

[WhiteWolf]

Mr. Type 4: Indeed, Ixidron would make a very nice addition to my Chaos Stack. It turns out as a 'fun' wrath effect. I delibirately left real wrath effects out of the Chaos Stack for fun reasons. It's just stupid when you're both building an army and it all gets wept away by a 'coincidence'. I know there are wrath effects in my Main Stack but there they have a more strategic purpose. Anyway, thanks for the tip, I missed it.

RaZe:

- Aven Fateshaper vs Tommorow, Azami's Familiar [4/5 Flying Body + Triggered Ability vs Deeper 'dig']
I never tried Familiar but Fateshaper looks stronger, wich is going to get cut in my stack to make roomfor Time Spiral.

- Blazing Archon [Seems to only give you a false sense of safely except on end-game where it's such a life-saver]
One of those very strong 'castle' permanents (other great ones are safeguard and Fyndhorn Pollen) that are very good when you can protect them for some time with counters. I play a lot of 1-on-1 where this strategy is stronger.

- 8 1/2 Tails vs Kira, The Glass Spinner [Maybe keep both?]
I think Tails is a LOT stronger and not on my cut-list.

- Greater Morphling vs Morphling [more a question of should I bother to keep Morphling?]
Morphling, although very good, is on my cut-list because he's inferior to his bigger brother and I need room.

- Konda, Lord of Eganjo. [If he had flying, he wouldn't be on this list]
I'm in doubt of this one. He isn't a very big beater on the attack but Indestructible IS strong.

- Living Hive [Win more card?]
Cute ability but I can't remember the last time it mattered. Probably getting cut to make room.

- Palinchron
Like Mr. Type 4 said: taking him back costs too much 'tempo' for too little reward (whoohoo a 4/5 flyer)

- Silvos, Rogue Elemental [considering the new creatures from TS, does he still deserve a spot?]
Personaly, I find it hard to cut him because he's there from the beginning but maybe his time has come when room is needed. Don't get me wrong, for a 'dumb fat beater' he's very good (much better than Penumbra or Hive or something I think).

- Sister's of Stone Death [it's wicked good if it would get to attack, it hasn't EVER since Ravnica was relieased]
Less powerful than Memnarch, but I'm not going to cut it yet.

- Arcane Denial vs Vanilla Counterspells [with such good cards, the card disadvantage is sometimes too stupid]
It hink vanilla counterspells are boring and miss the Type 4 feeling. Arcane Denial may be worse than a vanilla one but it could have nice politcal effects.

I think Mr. Type 4 is on to something when he states his conditions for the inclusion of creatures. With more and more nice creatures comig out the 'vanilla' fat beaters like Silvos, Penumbra, Colossus of Sardia, ... are getting pushed out by great utility creatures like Azorius Guildmage. A little sad because everyone likes beating down with 9/9's and the like. Of course the best are big monsters WITH a useful ability like Hypnox, Nicol, Sisters, ...

Luiggi:

I don't rate any of those cards very high. They seem too narrow (Avoid Fate, Vesuva) or too slow (Magus of the Mirror). I admit I liked some of them in the beginning (like Mirror) but after thinking about them some more ... Maybe Sengir Nosferatu, although like already said, Mist Dragon or Tatsumasa are better.

About Stack volume and ratios: I no longer really care for that. I don't want my stack to be too big but I don't care if it can't be perfectly divided by 6. The ratios probably drifted of but I haven't noticed any real imbalance. In the beginnig I cared but it was taking away from the 'casual' feeling for me and preventing me from playing some cards I really wanted to play.

WhiteWolf

[darkmindtone]

Thank you WhiteWolf as well as everyone else for the card choice discussion.  I'm in the process of getting the stack down to around the 400 area (which is quite difficult considering how insane TS is).  I've already cut around 50-60 cards so far, and am working on the last few, so I have a few questions on how other people value these cards (some are in my stack, and some I've just wondered about):

-Volrath The Fallen (I've had him in since the start and never really thought to question him, but he really isn't that overall impressive without any evasion and the likely possibilty of losing card advantage to a removal spell should you use the ability)

-Lifeline (doesn't seemt to do enough on it's own w/o a creature, but probably a possibility for some creature heavy stacks)

-Adarkyr Valkyrie / Lim-Dul, The Necromancer (I recently cut Valkyrie due to her relatively unimpressive stats and having a mildly needy ability.  Lim-Dul seems to suffer from the same (albeit slightly less) symptoms)

-Silver Wyvern (I am definetly considering this card as an alternative to Quicksilver Dragon.  Although it's slightly smaller w/o Morph, the ability to redirect abilities is quite handy to have as well.  It could be argued though that the new Vampire does a similar effect much better, so he's probably much better for the slot)

-Searing Touch (I personally love this card, as it gives you something to do each and every turn without being damaging enough to necessarily make yourself a target.  The pings do add up over time, and it's not as overly insane as Blast From The Past)

-Moratorium Stone (I run it currently, but it is non-cantripping/creature/instant graveyard removal, making it pretty limited in how good it can be.  I'm undecided on this, and I'd like to hear what your thoughts on it are)

Looks like I'm gonna have to bite the bullet and fork over some cash for stuff like Illusionary Mask and Overwhelming Forces if I want my stack to be all it can be.  Both definetly seem to be worth it. 

And BTW Whitewolf, I play a slightly less extreme version of this format w/o alternate casting costs = free spells and no-restriction tutoring effects such as Planar Portal and Soothsaying.  It's not as insane as your Firebreathing/Fist of the Suns/Nezumi Graverobber-style stack, but people do get to live a little longer, which around here seems to be pretty popular 

[Hi-Val]

I think T4 should have a viable attack strategy instead of just who can draft the best castle cards.

Core to this seems to be stuff that lets you get out lots of dudes or give them haste or protect them. Ach Hans, Anger and Glory all fall under this.

I think Teferi is probably the best of the bunch for helping out dudes but I figure he's going to be far higher picked than Anger ever will be.

If I were winnowing a stack down, I'd start by cutting removal and lackluster dudes. Removing Wraths and Masticores makes the game really interesting because it rewards you for playing creatures and cards on your own turn, which currently T4 punishes. Cutting counters also seems good.

I figure my T4 style of playing and thoughts about what makes a good game is likely far different from other peoples preferences though.

[WhiteWolf]

-Volrath The Fallen (I've had him in since the start and never really thought to question him, but he really isn't that overall impressive without any evasion and the likely possibilty of losing card advantage to a removal spell should you use the ability)
I only recently cut Volrath from my stack to make room. Like you say he has no evasion but he can be a beating in a creature heavy stack. The fact that he's black makes him a little more dificult to emove

-Lifeline (doesn't seemt to do enough on it's own w/o a creature, but probably a possibility for some creature heavy stacks)
Although it's symmetrical I could see the benefits. People are gonna like you for keeping their creatures alive. Just make sure  the creatures you combo with it aren't too 'obvious'. Perhaps some things like life gaining creatures, echo creatures (Radiant's Dragoons), ... I would keep it with a creature heavy stack. On a sidenote: another nice Chaos card.

-Adarkyr Valkyrie / Lim-Dul, The Necromancer (I recently cut Valkyrie due to her relatively unimpressive stats and having a mildly needy ability.  Lim-Dul seems to suffer from the same (albeit slightly less) symptoms)
Hard to say right now how good Lim-dul is. I'm definitely going to test him. I don't have a Valkyrie in my stack (don't own one) but I'm not sure she and the Necromancer are very good. The removal spell you 'protect' another creature from will just be pointed at these first. Ok, you could reanimate creatures slain in battle but that's again conditional. I think your better of with things like Volrath and Wyvern. Without testing them I could be completely wrong however. Anybody?

-Silver Wyvern (I am definetly considering this card as an alternative to Quicksilver Dragon.  Although it's slightly smaller w/o Morph, the ability to redirect abilities is quite handy to have as well.  It could be argued though that the new Vampire does a similar effect much better, so he's probably much better for the slot)
I still think the Dragon is better than the Wyvern because he's free. I would use Wyvern i addition to the Dragon, not in stead of. Of course that could be under the assumption you already have Mist Dragon (and Tatsumasa)

-Searing Touch (I personally love this card, as it gives you something to do each and every turn without being damaging enough to necessarily make yourself a target.  The pings do add up over time, and it's not as overly insane as Blast From The Past)
I use Blast from the past but if that's too powerful for your stack maybe Searing Touch is a nice replacement. I would mainly use it to pick of utility creatures an then the occasional opponent. Do you use Whispers of the Muse?

-Moratorium Stone (I run it currently, but it is non-cantripping/creature/instant graveyard removal, making it pretty limited in how good it can be.  I'm undecided on this, and I'd like to hear what your thoughts on it are)
I never used this and it seems underwhelming. I'drahter use the cantripping grave removal like Cremate and Headstone or the more powerful Reito Lantern and Night Soil.

Looks like I'm gonna have to bite the bullet and fork over some cash for stuff like Illusionary Mask and Overwhelming Forces if I want my stack to be all it can be.  Both definetly seem to be worth it.
--> I know the feeling. I still need a Mask. The Overwhelming Forces is really worth it though. Devastating thing.

And BTW Whitewolf, I play a slightly less extreme version of this format w/o alternate casting costs = free spells and no-restriction tutoring effects such as Planar Portal and Soothsaying.  It's not as insane as your Firebreathing/Fist of the Suns/Nezumi Graverobber-style stack, but people do get to live a little longer, which around here seems to be pretty popular  Wink
--> Yeah, I know a powerful stack with firebreathers and such can sound dumb and not a lot of fun, but you would be surprised what intense and long games we could have. People are constantly jockeying for position often just one turn awa from death (staring at a firebreather or someting). The swings are enormous. I tried toning down the stack a few times but my friends just ask me to put the insane stuff back in. All a matter of playstyle I guess. Combined with some small money on the line (you can raise and that kind of stuff) and some good Belgian beer we have very nice evenings.


Hi-Val: Yes, I think to Type 4 at his core should be about the Fat Men. Sometimes with all those neat spells and nice new utility creatures its' hard to stay balanced. No sense in having everybody hide behind their walls and forcefields waiting for their superbomb to deploy (although there's always someone doing it).

WhiteWolf

[RaZe]

Aven Fateshaper vs Tommorow, Azami's Familiar [4/5 Flying Body + Triggered Ability vs Deeper 'dig']
- I kinda want to keep 1 of 'em.

- Silver Wyven > Azorious [depending on rules], Legacy Weapon, Visara, Avatar of Woe, Duplicant, 'Masticores', etc...
The new vamp dodges spells. Wyvern makes it usefull for you. It's no comparison. And it's strictly worse than Mistdragon.

- The bigger the group you play with the weaker Volrath is.

- Moratorioum isn't strong. Sure you practically waste a turn casting it. But consider wasting a spot removal on this just cuz you have Genesis. Even though worse things are sure to come. I have 4 Incarnations, 2 Recover, Eternal D, Firemane, 4-5 flashback, Chainer, Graverobber, Hymn of Rebirth, M.Recovery, Volrath's Stronghold, etc...so it has it's uses.

[WhiteWolf]

- Aven Fateshaper vs Tommorow, Azami's Familiar [4/5 Flying Body + Triggered Ability vs Deeper 'dig']
-->If I had to choose, I would keep Fateshaper. This based almost entirely on the facht that a 4/5 flyer is better than a 1/5. The abilities are pretty alike in my eyes, although being 'activated' can be a disadvantage. On the other hand you would think people keep their 'stifle'-effects for more important things than Fateshaper. Also, the 'filtering' effect of the Familiar isn't that strong in this format I think (every card is strong, you don't have to Brainstorm away lands and the like).

- Silver Wyven > Azorious [depending on rules], Legacy Weapon, Visara, Avatar of Woe, Duplicant, 'Masticores', etc...
The new vamp dodges spells. Wyvern makes it usefull for you. It's no comparison. And it's strictly worse than Mistdragon.
--> Yeah, the Sengir dodges pinpoint removal but no wrath effects. Hard to say about cards I haven't tested yet but Wyvern seems stronger than the vampire.

- Moratorioum isn't strong. Sure you practically waste a turn casting it. But consider wasting a spot removal on this just cuz you have Genesis. Even though worse things are sure to come. I have 4 Incarnations, 2 Recover, Eternal D, Firemane, 4-5 flashback, Chainer, Graverobber, Hymn of Rebirth, M.Recovery, Volrath's Stronghold, etc...so it has it's uses.
--> That's my point, with such strong 'graveyard'-cards, you need strong graveyard killers. Maybe Reito Lantern is a bit too much but stuff like Mnemonic Vexus is strong an can have some other strategic possibilities. At the moment, Nexus is in my Chaos stack otherwise it would be in my Main Stack.

WhiteWolf

[Mr. Type 4]

As far as powerlevel goes, I've noticed that Type 4 stacks tend to work out if they meet two conditions:
1. The power level is fairly consistent: meaning you don't have Greater Morphling in the middle of a stack where everything else is weak.  There should be a lot of cards on a similar level.  If you have firebreathers, it should still feel like there are plenty of win conditions that are trump. 

2. There are enough cards to keep degenrate strategies in check:  If you have firebreathers, are there a lot of ways to deal with them?  The most unfair cards are ones which seem like there are just not a lot of good options for how to deal.  Firebreathers are nothing compared to something like Nezumi Graverobber which can potentially win the game "in response" to anything anyone tries to do to stop it, save a few split second cards.  (supposing the cards needed to win are in the grave)

Creatures with firebreathing aren't really all that unfair in the grand scheme.  They just deliver the death blow to a player if they are unable to block and unable to remove the creature.  Are other creatures in Type 4 not similar?  Don't you still lose if you get hit with Nicol Bolas and then are agressively finished off?  Getting killed by a firebreathing creature just accelerates the inevitable: if you can't block and you can't kill a creature, then you were probably in trouble already. 

That said, I still won't be having firebreathers in my stack, but just because my group isn't into that sort of thing. 

Maybe Reito Lantern is a bit too much but stuff like Mnemonic Vexus is strong an can have some other strategic possibilities.

Reito Lantern is great card for keeping graveyard in check.  Personally, I hate that card, it always seems weak to me, but I understand that it's necessary to make sure the graveyard doen't become an out of control strategy, and it has some interesting combos (here's a new one kids: Reito Lantern + Scion of Ur-Dragon).  Back in the days of Judgement, the graveyard proved to be one of the most dominant strategies, but it has faded in popularity a lot over time.  I cut Menonic Nexus a while ago, and I also cut Night Soil recently.  Right now I just have the foillowing cards to control graveyard: R. Lantern, Withered Wretch, Chainer, Sway of the Stars, Decree of Annihilation, Dimir Doppleganger.  I think that all of them. 

-Searing Touch (I personally love this card, as it gives you something to do each and every turn without being damaging enough to necessarily make yourself a target.  The pings do add up over time, and it's not as overly insane as Blast From The Past)
I use Blast from the past but if that's too powerful for your stack maybe Searing Touch is a nice replacement. I would mainly use it to pick of utility creatures an then the occasional opponent. Do you use Whispers of the Muse?

  I just cut Shivan Gorge, which I would argue is a lot better than touch, as you'll almost never kill a creature with the touch.  I love Blast from the Past, or as we call it "Cycle Madness Kicker Buyback" because that's how you announce the abilities every turn.  It IS really really nasty.

I cut Silver Wyvren in like 2002.  My arguement against this guy is that he often gets into this situation where there aren't any legal targets for him to misdirect to.  I think the morph and the sengir nosferatu are both better (even if Morphs count as your one spell).  At least the morph has surprise value (you can get a 2 for 1), and the nosferatu is harder to kill. 

I cut Volrath at about the same time.  In my stack it's hard to justify throwing away creatures.  He's not that bad, though, if you have a creature heavy stack.  I agree that he's ALOT weaker in a larger game.

I've never tried Lifeline, it seems kinda nutty.  I might leave that in for fun (i can think of like 10 combos right off the top of my head), but I can't imagine it being that popular. 

The verdict is still out on Lim-Dul.

[WhiteWolf]

Creatures with firebreathing aren't really all that unfair in the grand scheme.  They just deliver the death blow to a player if they are unable to block and unable to remove the creature.  Are other creatures in Type 4 not similar?  Don't you still lose if you get hit with Nicol Bolas and then are agressively finished off?  Getting killed by a firebreathing creature just accelerates the inevitable: if you can't block and you can't kill a creature, then you were probably in trouble already.

Yup, firebreathers are actually very much like Door to Nothingness. They can also have a political function. Believe me, people don’t get killed all the time by firebreathers, even in 1-on-1 games. Most of the time, people have an answer like removal, damage prevention, … My group just likes the tension that hits when a firebreather comes to the table. Firebreathers can even backfire with some of the damage-redirection cards. I have known situations where people didn’t dare to attack with their firebreather in fright of this, be it bluff from the opponent or not (insert chicken-sounds from the rest of the table here)   

That said, I still won't be having firebreathers in my stack, but just because my group isn't into that sort of thing.

Did you ever try them out. If yes, how did that go?

Right now I just have the foillowing cards to control graveyard: R. Lantern, Withered Wretch, Chainer, Sway of the Stars, Decree of Annihilation, Dimir Doppleganger.

How could I forget about Withered Wretch? I have to include that one, thanks! And how is Dimir Doppleganger?
Mnemonic Nexus by the way is great in a Chaos stack.

I cut Silver Wyvren in like 2002.  My arguement against this guy is that he often gets into this situation where there aren't any legal targets for him to misdirect to.  I think the morph and the sengir nosferatu are both better (even if Morphs count as your one spell).  At least the morph has surprise value (you can get a 2 for 1), and the nosferatu is harder to kill.

I’m not going to include the Nosferatu I guess. I don’t like cards that serve more or less the same function in my stack if one of them is obviously weaker (I have some exceptions). Mist Dragon and Quicksilver Dragon seem much stronger to me. Is Nosferatu that good you think?

On another note, yesterday I’ve been trimming my stack to make room for all the great things Time Spiral will bring. The most victims fell in the creature category and the mass removal. I removed the more ‘dumb’ fat men like Living Hive, Penumbra Wurm, … For mass removal I made some sort of personal rule for the future: ‘Vanilla wraths’ like Wrath of God don’t cut it anymore. A mass removal needs to remove multiple types of permanents like Plague Boiler and Obliterate, remove creatures at instant speed like Dwarven Catapult or have some additional advantage like drawing (Dregs of Sorrow), blockers (Kirtar’s Wrath), … This also fits in the mindset of ‘if two are (more or less) the same cut the worst’, like Obliterate > Jokulhaups, Overwhelming Forces > Wrath of God. The effect this has on my stack will be seen in testing …

WhiteWolf

[Mr. Type 4]

Sengir Nosferatu will probably be weak in a stronger stack, and will be great in a weaker stack.  Also, the more targeted removal there is in the stack, the better he will be.  This guy doesn't make the cut in my list.

Withered Wretch is great.  Dimir Doppleganer is also very good.  By the time you play him there are usually lots of options for killer recursion.  He is kind of a more fair Chainer (which I think is one of the best cards), but he does have some advantages, the most significant being he can grab a creature with regenerating or something to help him dodge removal.  He won't let you recur Voidmage Prodigy for 3 life a pop, but he can RFG every creature in your opponents' graveyards if he's about to die.

As far as Wraths go, I've been following the same rule for sometime.  Wrath of God isn't good enough in my opinion, and honestly, I don't think Kirtar's even cuts it comparitively to the ones I have in.  Anything that's a Sorcery needs to be REALLY good, so as far as sorcery speed wraths that just kill creatures go, I only have Plague Wind, Decree of Pain (even the cycle ability is somewhat useful) and  Final Judgement(kills indestructable guys, pretty good).  I also have White Myojin, which is essentially a sorcery speed wrath.  At instant speed I have Rout(very good), Dwarven Catapult (which sadly is errated to target one person) and Starstorm.  Obviously mass removal effects that hit several card types are usually more useful (red decree, obliterate, sway of the stars, Pernicious Deed, Akroma's Vengence, Nev's Disk, Oblivion Stone)

[WhiteWolf]

This guy doesn't make the cut in my list.

No, I won't be including Nosferatu either.

Dimir Doppleganer is also very good

Yes, I just took another look at Doppelganger and he's actually very good. I believe I missed him the first time around. He can copy the best critter AND remove all creatures in graves when needed. He's also different enough from Wretch to be put in. Maybe Reito Lantern can come out then. I completely understand your hate against the Lantern, it 'only' removes' graveyards and sits there. Its doesn't have that 'power' feeling. At least Wretch can attack. But at the moment it's a necessary evil.

As far as Wraths go, I've been following the same rule for sometime.  Wrath of God isn't good enough in my opinion, and honestly, I don't think Kirtar's even cuts it comparitively to the ones I have in.  Anything that's a Sorcery needs to be REALLY good, so as far as sorcery speed wraths that just kill creatures go, I only have Plague Wind, Decree of Pain (even the cycle ability is somewhat useful) and  Final Judgement(kills indestructable guys, pretty good).  I also have White Myojin, which is essentially a sorcery speed wrath.  At instant speed I have Rout(very good), Dwarven Catapult (which sadly is errated to target one person) and Starstorm.  Obviously mass removal effects that hit several card types are usually more useful (red decree, obliterate, sway of the stars, Pernicious Deed, Akroma's Vengence, Nev's Disk, Oblivion Stone)

I currently use:
Akroma’s Vengeance
Balance
Balancing Act
Decree of Pain
Devastation (on the edge of cutting, lands aren't that common)
Dregs of Sorrow
Dwarven Catapult
Evacuation
Fevered Convulsions
Flowstone Slide (on the edge of cutting, pumps your crits in weird situations and kills regenerators)
Hour of Reckoning (Convoke acc)
Inferno
Kirtar's Wrath (2 extra crits are indeed underhelming, will be replaced by the Final Judgment in the mail)
Obliterate
Overwhelming Forces
Pernicious Deed
Plague Boiler
Plague Wind
Planeswalker’s Scorn
Rout
Soulscour
Starstorm

Red Decree went in and out of my stack a few times because it also removes your own hand. Maybe I should give it another try. Sway of the Stars is in my Chaos stack (because of too symmetric), Disk can be pretty slow, don't you think? (although a nice deterrent) and Oblivion Stone is on my 'to buy' list (with some other staples like Vindicate and Akroma).

WhiteWolf

[RaZe]

My Reset Cards

Apocalypse
Catastrophe
Decree of Annihilation
Decree of Pain
Akroma's Vengence
Devastation
Distorting Wake
Dregs of Sorrow
Dwarven Catapult
Evacuation
Fault Line
Final Judgement
Flowstone Slide
Forced March
Hour of Reckoning
Jokulhaups
Obliterate
Oblivion Stone
Pernicious Deed
Plague Boiler
Plague Wind
Rout
Solar Tide
Soulscour
Starstorm

[WhiteWolf]

RaZe: Wow, I never thought about Distorting Wake. Selective Mass Removal! Very very strong I think. I need to get one. How's Fault Line? Doesn't the 'Fireball' part lead to too many 'stupid wins'? I love my superpowered stack but Fault Line seems too much.

About missing cards: who knows wich wonderful Type 4 gems are hidden in the dark ... Has anyone ever went over ALL the cards in existance to search out Type 4 cards?

WhiteWolf

[RaZe]

Spikes aren't that welcome in my play group. Putting everyone to 1 is okay. Killing everyone is just plain dumb. Part of the House rules is "intentional kamizaze taking the entire playgroup results in an automatic game loss". You're welcome to kill all but one person, but not everyone. Hence Squall Line is an auto include once TS comes out.

The only cards I remember playing with from the dark are Fissure, Inferno [dark art looks sick on both] and Amnesia. But Amnesia got cut among the other 'target player discards card'.

[DeadHead]

The problem with Sengir Nosferatu is that he doesn't dodge mass removal. One way or the other, he's going to be in play when the Wrath hits. I think that Mist Dragon and Tatsumasa are both MUCH better because when someone Obliterates (or whatever) they're still there.

D'oh! Thats silly. That would mean mr. Nosferatu wont make the stack for sure.

... is on my 'to buy' list (with some other staples like Vindicate...

Don't bother buying Vindicate, it's horrible. It's too slow because it's a sorcery and the effect isn't all that. You're better of playing the 5/5 angel with the Vindicate abilty (Angel of Dispair). If you really want a Vindicate, you can always play Desert Twister (4GG || Sorcery || Destroy target permanent)

About missing cards: who knows wich wonderful Type 4 gems are hidden in the dark ... Has anyone ever went over ALL the cards in existance to search out Type 4 cards?

We play a lot of 'weird' cards in our stack because we have a fruitcake in the group who likes bad cards with silly abilities. Think of cards like:
- Cold Storage (4 || Artifact || 3: Put a creature on Cold Storage || Sac CS: Put all creatures under CS in play)
- Sway of the Stars (7UU || Sorcery || Start over with 7 hp)
- Invasion Masters (2/2 critter with 2 odd abilities)
- Suns Bounty (1W || Instant || Gain 4 life || Recover)
- Radiate (3RR || Instant || Fork something on the stack and let it target everything)
- Pit Spawn (4BB || 6/4 || First Strike || Damage to creature = removed from the game)
- "Forgot its name" (3U || Instant || When an opponent draws a card, you draw it instead)


This is all stuff we've grown accustomed to and don't remove from the stack no more. We have a lot more and I'll look them up one day.

[WhiteWolf]

RaZe: Even putting everyone at one or killing everyone except one seems not very fun. Or am I wrong? And I meant 'the dark' in a metaphorical way, not the set.  Or are you kidding me?

DeadHead: Maybe you're right about Vindicate. I already have Angel of Despair wich is strictly better. And I already use Desert Twister.
Of those cards, how does Pit Spawn perform? The rest looks kinda underpowered. The card you're lookin for, by the way, is Plagiarize.

WhiteWolf

[Luiggi]

Luiggi:

I don't rate any of those cards very high. They seem too narrow (Avoid Fate, Vesuva) or too slow (Magus of the Mirror). I admit I liked some of them in the beginning (like Mirror) but after thinking about them some more ... Maybe Sengir Nosferatu, although like already said, Mist Dragon or Tatsumasa are better.

I don't rate them particularly high, either. I just suggested them as possible alternatives for people with weaker stacks, are just getting into it, etc.

Currently the only TS cards I put into my stack are:

Bogardan Hellkite (Flash is great; ability is great; he's a Dragon)
Evangelize (might not be good enough, but since there are generally not that many creatures in play, could be busted)
Fortune Thief (might be too weak)
Haunting Hymn (seems good, can be great)
Krosan Grip (obviously better than a vanilla Disenchant/Naturalize)
Lim Dul the Necromancer (might be too fragile, but I want to give it a try)
Molder (obviously better than a vanilla Disenchant/Naturalize)
Mystical Teachings (I'd missed this when looking at the spoiler the first time, and I tend to not run that many tutors, but it seems quite good)
Return to Dust (obviously better than a vanilla Disenchant/Naturalize)
Sudden Death (seems awesome)
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir (da bomb)
Thelonite Hermit (nice Morph)
Urza's Factory (twice as good as Vitu-Ghazi, which can get annoying if left unchecked)
Vesuvan Shapeshifter (cool ability)
Voidmage Husher (cool ability, but might end up being sort of weak)
Wipe Away (nice trick)
Word of Seizing (I love Split Second)

I also put in a foil Nicol Bolas, which I was fortunate enough to trade for on the day of the Pre-Release. The other guy valued it at $7-$8, .

Question: how many spells that can only kill artifacts/enchantments does everybody run? I'm trying to gauge whether I have too few/many...

Luiggi

[Mr. Type 4]

Mass Removal: I DO have Evacuation, forgot about that one, pretty good.  I think Distorting wake is less good BECAUSE it's targeted.  The best thing about mass removal is that it DOESN'T target.  I think Dregs of Sorrow is much better, but i cut that a while back, too.

Hot tip: Molder can destroy Gleemax and then you gain a million life.  There's a clause on there that says casting cost = X, so even if there's another artifact in play you get to kill the Gleemax.  Hott.

SO I played some games with Time Spiral in yesterday, and I kicked some serious ass.  Check this game out:

So it's down to 3 (Me, Dave and Brian) Dave tried to get out Glarecaster+ Masticore, but it got batted down. I used Crime/Punishment early on in the game to destroy Retio Lantern after my Sneak Attack + Arcanis combo got stopped by Word of Seizing and the Arcanis was put on the bottom of my deck so I couldn't Corpse Dance it back up.  I was glad I did that, because I needed that graveyard later. I have Corpse Dance, Congregation at Dawn, Blast From The Past, and Starstorm in hand.  Winding Canyons and Shield of the Ages in play.  Dave has Praav and Brian has Stuffy Doll targeting me (not that I care with shield of the ages out). I congregate on Dave's EOT for DIMIR DOPPLEGANGER(soooo good!!) and Eternal Dragon.  My plan is to cast the Dimir through Winding Canyons the next time I have a good opportunity, and if it doesn't work out, I can Plaincycle for Decree of the Creator and cast Corpe Dance to get the Doppleganger AGAIN.  Dave counter's Brian's spell on his turn, so I take the oportunity to cycle my Blast from the Past (they don't know i have Starstorm) and cast the Dimir.  I then turn the dimir in to MASTICORE and put 1000 damage on the stack targeting my doppleganger, then I try to shapeshift into Glarecaster in response to the damage.  Dave Channels Juwari, the Earth Aflame (a GREAT card, get this if you don't have it already) and I'm so shocked I forget that my Dimir is a Masticore and can regenerate. I put the Dimir into the yard, leaving the Glarecaster RFGed.  I now have to play perfectly for the rest of the game to be able to overcome that major error. 

Brian plays Red Myojin and uses it to kill my Winding Canyons, and it also destroys Dave's Praav.  I grab the reins on the Myojin and throw it at Brian putting him to 2 On his following turn, I used Corpse Dance on Dimir to steal a Voidmage Prodigy out of Dave's graveyard to counter Brian's Scion of Ur-Dragon.  On my turn I play Corpse Dance returning Dimir, which I turn into Flowstone Overseer.  I attack Dave, who is at 10, and he declares no blocks, so I respond by putting 3 +1/-1's on the stack then I shapeshift into Scion of Ur-Dragon in response, and still in response activate the Scion.  While searching my deck I use Infernal Spawn of Infernal Spawn of Evil to deal Brian 2 damage, killing him.  I get Nicol Bolas (pretty sweet, I had a shapeshifted shapeshifter).  Dave takes the 10 and he's out, too.  I win. 

So yeah, Dimir Doppleganger is good!  Timespiral stuff is awesome. I won a game against Teferi, but it was really close and I have to say, I'll be watching that card.   

Overall, I've been really pleased with the cuts and additions I made to the stack.  Has anyone else played yet?

[WhiteWolf]

Question: how many spells that can only kill artifacts/enchantments does everybody run? I'm trying to gauge whether I have too few/many...

I run (pre Time Spiral):
- Nantuko Vigilante
- Altar’s Light
- Dismantling Blow
- Orim’s Thunder
- Ray of Distortion (love it)

I'll probably add Krosan Grip and Return to Dust.

Mass Removal: I DO have Evacuation, forgot about that one, pretty good.  I think Distorting wake is less good BECAUSE it's targeted.  The best thing about mass removal is that it DOESN'T target.  I think Dregs of Sorrow is much better, but i cut that a while back, too.

I was thinking the targetting of Wake could be good to preserve your own things (and some of your opponent's for politics) but I can see the targetting being a drawback. I 'm still going to try it out however.

That seemed to be some nice games! I haven't had the chance to play around with TS yet. A buddy and I bought a box together (he because he loves boosters and collecting a little, me for Type 4 and the all-around coolness of this set). I can't wait to welcome that thing in the mail and spice up my stack.
Yeah, Dimir Doppelganger seems really good. I'll have to include him for sure. He's like a Vesuvan with more available targets (in the later game). Plus he removes annoying creatures from the grave.
I see you use Sneak Attack. How's that? I was planning to include one myself.

WhiteWolf

[Mr. Type 4]

You might like Sneak Attack, Jan.  I mean, you guys like powerful cards, and Sneak Attack sounds like a must-counter for anyone who's not ready to get a firebreather up the ass.  It's less broken than Call of the Wild, which you allow.  SA is REALLY powerful in my stack, and is often countered.  It has lots of cool interactions with utility creatures that you can use to surprise your opponents, like Angel of Dispair or Ertai, Wizard Adept.  It's pretty strong, and isn't recommended for more conservative stacks. 

BTW - Juwari, the Earth Aflame is one of the best cards to use against Teferi.

I run ALOT of artifact/enchantment kill cards.  After Mirrodin came out we all wanted a bunch of these inthe stack.  I'm a bit concerned sometimes that I run too many, but it seems to work out ok. Artifacts are probably the most dangerous cards in my stack if they are allowed to resolve. Cards that just kill artifacts/enchantments off the top of my head:

-Dismantiling Blow (easily one of the best removal spells, the gold standard)
-Ray of Distortion (yes, this is good)
-Naturalize (probably the weakest one in here)
-Return to Dust
-Mystic Melting
-Shattering Pulse (VERY STRONG, gamebreaking)
-Allay
-Shattering Spree
-Molder
-Smash
-Gorilla Shaman (and Deepfire Elemental, but he also kills creatures)
-Uktabi Kong
-Alter's Light
-Orim's Thunder
-Mortify
-Putrify

Vindicate:
Is Vindicate good?  I think it's an ok card, it's versitile, but slow.  It's actually inferior to Desert Twister(because it's black, and Akroma & Spirit of the Night are problack, and I don't think there's really anything good in Type 4 that's just Pro Green), but I like the art better on Vindicate.  I wouldn't run both.

[WhiteWolf]

Allay is one of those cards I missed. I know how good Shattering Pulse is, so Allay can't be bad. Cantripping one-kill things like Smash (and Aura Blast) are on my list of cards that can come in when it's needed. Naturalize is just too "un-Type 4'ish" (what a word) to include for me.

I already have Desert Twister so I don't really need Vindicate. I'll have to find a blackbordered one though ...

Sneak Attack + firebreathers ... ah, the sweet insanity ...

WhiteWolf

[darkmindtone]

Do you all think Smash and Allay are better than say, Rain of Rust and Purify? While Purify is a sorcery, it's a pretty solid wipe the board clean effect for brokenness. 

And Sneak Attack is a really fun card.  Just wait until somebody gets Sneak Attack/Greater Good going on in a creature-heavy draft deck.  It's insane. 

[RaZe]

@ 'dark' cards

I used to run three [didn't want more than that]

-Reverse the Sands
-Biorhythm
-Sway the Stars

but now i've moved the above cards to the chaos stack i'm adding to the gameplay. As for the list of the chaose stack...I'll post about it when I have a more concrete list.

@ Rain of Rust vs. Purify

Rain of Rust can destroy lands. Very few things can destroy annoying lands like when a friend of mine got Volrath's Stronghold + Azorious + Flowstone. It was a nightmare.

@ Disenchant Effects

Altar's Light
Artifact Mutation [Gleemax ftw]
Dismantling Blow [one of the best]
Hit/Run
Mortify
Mystic Melting
Orim's Thunder
Putrefy
Rain of Rust
Ray of Distortion
Seed Spark
Shattering Pulse
Wear Away [been spliced once]

[Luiggi]

I wanted to get people's opinion of Vhati il-dal, since I hadn't seen him mentioned. I guess he's not really a Time Spiral card, but now he's much easier to find and add to people's stacks... He seems pretty good to me, since you can use him offensively and defensively, but I wanted to get some second opinions.

Luis

[WhiteWolf]

I wanted to get people's opinion of Vhati il-dal, since I hadn't seen him mentioned. I guess he's not really a Time Spiral card, but now he's much easier to find and add to people's stacks... He seems pretty good to me, since you can use him offensively and defensively, but I wanted to get some second opinions.

Luis

I think Vhati il-dal is pretty versatile but underpowered. On it's own he can do combat tricks or 'Forcefield' an attacking creature. Together with another critter or 'pinging' / 'damage-based' removal spell he can kill an oppossing creature. Last but not least he can tone down a x/x Firebreather. Like I said, pretty versatile in some stacks but I wouldn't include him in my stack.

(to top it off, he has some nice art with the whole 'human-faced-Predator-look). 

On another Time Spiral note, I still haven't had the chance to test the new Time Spiral additions. I'm still in the process of getting some of the cards I want (after that my stack is completed like I want it, disregarding Illusionary Mask ) and me and my Type 4 buddy were pretty busy the last weeks. I'll definitely post my updated stack and play results/stories when I get some games going.

WhiteWolf

[Luiggi]

Yeah, I can definitely see him as being underpowered... If I find something in my stack that feels less powerful, or that hasn't been up-to-snuff maybe I'll try him out a bit.

Luis