UW FISH: Teh Primer!

[Dxfiler]

It's been a while since I've posted in this thread, but I wanted something concrete to talk about before posting again.  In the past few weeks, I had put some serious thought into playing Daze in the deck.  I had been receiving constant praise about the card from various people who have used it to good results.  Joachim Freitag in particular had made a very strong case for it.  So I decided to give it a shot.  I had fiddled with some numbers to fit it in, at first cutting stifle.  The daze showed immediate results in testing games, often completely shutting down my opponent in a key turn.  Against gifts, which had shown increased popularity, it was particularly shining. 

With the addition of Daze, another card showed a decrease in effectiveness: Misdirection.  It was on the chopping block for me going several weeks back, but I always kept it in because it could randomly pull out those clutch games.  The problem is when it isn't randomly pulling out a game, it just sits there...forever  and ever and ever.  It's the energizer bunny I didn't ask for.  :p  Daze on the other hand, well it's usually out of your hand before you can blink.  And if it's sitting in your hand, that's probably because your opponent is playing around it.  If your opponent is playing around daze, that's a great thing.  It usually completely alters their game plan.  Playing around a misdirection is a hell of alot easier.  Also, it's hell of alot harder for the fish player to protect their mis D than it is daze.  You typically need a force with another blue card to protect the misD that you most likely just cast by pitching a blue card... that's 4 blue cards for those keeping track at home.  With Daze you just need force and any blue card... and sometimes an additional daze can actually protect the first one.  Basically it all came down to versatility.

So daze made it in, mis d went bye-bye.  This meant stifle kept it spot and one more card had to make way for 3 dazes... this ended up being true believer.  True believer is one of those cards I like to have at all times but not in big numbers, so going down to 2 wasn't a big deal.  With the addition of dazes, I found another card I could side out alot.  This card used to be true believer, but I'd rather be constantly siding out dazes, because people will still play around them regardless.

I decided to test my new version of UW at myriad games.  This was what I ended up with:   


4x  Brainstorm
3x  Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3x  Stifle
3x  Daze
4x  Meddling Mage
2x  True Believer
3x  Jotun Grunt
3x  Kataki, War's Wage
4x  Force of Will
4x  Swords to Plowshares
3x  Null Rod
1x  Ancestral Recall
1x  Time Walk
1x  Mox Sapphire
1x  Mox Pearl
1x  Black Lotus
4x  Flooded Strand
4x  Tundra
4x  Wasteland
2x  Island
2x  Plains
1x  Strip Mine
1x  Windswept Heath
1x  Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
3x  Orim's Chant
3x  Seal of Cleansing
3x  Energy Flux
3x  Umezawa's Jitte
3x  Threads of Disloyalty

No feinstein-esque report, just a quick summary.

Rd 1- Teh Bye.  I arrived an hour late, they held the tourney for me, and I still randomly got a match win.  To Dave Feinstein! :p

Rd 2- Teh Brassman /w Ichorid.  Losing to Ichorid is going to happen, even if it's piloted by Brassman.  He pounded my skull in.  Oh well.

Rd 3- Scott /w Sui Black Tendrils- Both games I lock him down with multiple meddling mgaes.  He didn't have massacres in the board so I was home free.

Rd 4- Mark "I'M FIFTEEN!" Tuttle /w Slaver- I had really nice draws, he didn't.  GG. 

Rd 5- Bill Copes /w Uba Stax- Nicest opponent on the day.  Tense 3 games, I remember they all came down to topdecking.  Game 3 I named duplicant with meddling mage when he had no cards in hand, but it probably should have been Balance.  I hadn't seen Balance out of him, but Balance just completely wins him the game where Duplicant would really really hurt but not auto lose me.  Lucily he doesn't topdeck balance and I pull it out.

4-1

Top 8: TRAVIS LA PLANTE /W MYSTERY DECK
I get him to one, he stabalizes.  I brainstorm a Jotun Grunt 2 cards deep and it ends up costing me the game.  The only way I end up losing is if he drops wasteland and sphere of resistance in the same turn, and he does.  I never can get grunt online and die due to this. 

I side out dazes and stifles for fluxes and seal of cleansings, as I always do in this match. 

Game 2 he gets out early seal.  I can't drop a flux because of this. I'm force to pitch the flux to FOW to counterTrinsphere.  He had sphere of resistance out, so if he just wastelands me first then I can't pay the 1 and cast fow.  He doesn't do this so I'm able to counter it.  It doesn't matter though as he eventually gets crucible online and wins.  I never saw kataki during the entire match.  Depressing loss, but I think I played correctly and still like my Stax matchup very much. 

Looking back on the tourney, I loved Daze.  If I play UW fish at the mana clash, I'll be running this exact same maindeck card for card.  The sideboard will probably include Tormod's crypt, to give me both a chance against ichorid and increase my odds of beating gifts/long.  Crypt on its own will not beat gifts/long, but when applied with all the other pain in the ass cards UW fish packs, it should be really good.  I worry about the non-interaction T crypt faces
with Null Rod, but I think it's a necessary evil to have both available post board.  Gifts is just too damn popular right now.  I think I'll cut the jittes or threads.  Not sure which one. 

I still enjoy UW fish very much, but may switch to something else in the near future.  I don't know how much more can be done with the archtype.  It's nearing the maximum in terms of optimization and options.  I like decks that can continue to thrive under different forms.  UW fish can't change very much in order to stay effective.  I'll probably branch out to other forms of fish very soon, specifically confidant based ones.  I still greatly love UW fish and recommend it to those who don't know what they want to play in type one.  It's a refreshing alternative to all of the other top performing decks. 

I hope my primer was of use and if anyone is attending Ray's Mana Clash tourney (HIGHLY RECOMMENDED), I'll see you there. 

- Dave Feinstein 

[Goblin Nabob]

Only because of your primer and your SCG report I decided to get the cards and play Fish. It's a very good deck. Ok, you don't get to make broken moves - but winning with white 2/2 creatures in Vintage is fun!

I don't like Misdirection, too. Supporting 4 FoW is hard enough sometimes. 1 or 2 more pitch spells is overkill. I switched Misdirection for Daze two weeks ago and it worked very well. Daze is a good addition to the mana denial strategy of Fish. I also think you want three of them, so I cut the 2 MisD and 1 Sword. I like True Believer a lot.

Is the Ichorid matchup so bad? Last month, my friend and I were both playing Ichorid and we feared fish. Jötun Grunt, Swords, Wastelands and Jitte can ruin the day.

I don't understand the Polluted Delta. Sometimes the deck plays like White Weenie with a blue splash, so I play 2 Windswept Heath. I often keep a fetchland for Brainstorm, and after a Brainstorm I want to fetch a white mana. But I don't think it makes a big difference.

Thank you for the primer and the report.

To Dave Feinstein!

[Dxfiler]

Ichorid, in my opinion, is the worst matchup for UW fish among the major decks that are played.  Yes, even worse than Oath. 

First off, you have about 20 cards that are pretty much dead maindeck.  Stifle/Daze/FOW are pretty much worthless, and meddling mage/true believer aren't much better.  The latter two creatures shut off cabal therapy, but Ichorid doesn't care.  There's really nothing you can counter that will stop them from summoning a horde of creatures.   

Swords to Plowshares is really only good in multiples, and by multiples I mean 4 :p  You simply can't plow all their gouls and ichorids. 

You would think Jotun Grunt would be DA MAN in this match, but he's really not that scary for the ichorid player.  If you play him early, they just wait him out and then dump their graveyard.  If you get him out while there's already a stocked GY, he still won't be able to handle the onslaught of hasted 3/1's that come his way.  For every 3/1 you put on the bottom, there's usually at least two more going back into the graveyard from Bazaar, Stinkweed, Golgari Troll, etc.

Wasteland is probably the ebst card in the matchup, as it nails bazzar.  The problem is they can start a dredge chain off just one activation.  This might mean that pithing needle needs to make its way to the sideboard, but I'm probably not gonna bother and just stick with the more useful tormod's crypts.
This match is horrific, but Ichorid isn't a very popular deck, so it isn't worth devoting pure hate towards it. 

I pretty much take the same approach towards Ichorid as I do Oath: Pray to God I don't face it, If I do then I call on my loyal henchmen to break their kneecaps.  'TONYA HARDING'D!'

Thanks for the questions

- Dave Feinstein

[brianpk80]

Ichorid, in my opinion, is the worst matchup for UW fish among the major decks that are played.  Yes, even worse than Oath. 

Hi Dave, I like your build.
You mentioned you were considering branching off into other incarnations of Fish.  I have a few ideas on improving the Ichorid match-up. 

Children of Korlis is a total house against Ichorid because each time you use them at the right moment, you undo a huge investment by the Ichord player.  Very often, a single Children is all it takes to swing the game back in your favor.  Gaining 12 life after 3 Ichorids and an Ashen Ghoul attack sets Ichord back by a turn, three black creatures (removed from game), and whatever mana was spent to bring the Ghoul back (usually a City or Gemstone).  Couple that with a few chump blockers, and eventually the Ichorids will start cannibalizing themselves doing less and less damage each turn. 

I've found the Grunt to be pretty spectacular in this match as well.  Unless they're reliably naming him with Cabal Therapy every time, holding him until the third or fourth turn when they have around 20 cards and 1 or 2 Ichorids in graveyard should hold them off for good.  Jotun Grunt out of an AEther Vial during their attack phase is huge shift in your favor.  A cheap mid-sized creature like Serendib Efreet in the sideboard is also great v. Ichorid, Stax, aggro, and Fish mirrors.
 
If you go with Vial over Null Rod, you can maindeck or sideboard Crypts, which come down faster, do more permanent damage, and are actually good in Stax/Ichorid/Combo-Oath matches unlike Null Rod.  The only match-ups I can think of where Null Rod is strictly better than Vial+Crypt are Slaver and Bomberman.  There's nothing worse than getting Yawgwill-Tendrilsed to death on the second turn with a Null Rod in hand that couldn't resolve on your only turn for lack of a Pearl, Sapphire, Lotus, etc.  I guess it depends on what kind of meta you expect to see, but Vial's gotten a lot stronger in the past year, even though it's not as popular.

Good luck w. your new build,

-Brian   

[kirdape3]

If Kids are on the board, they won't all-in you like that.  They'll just crash for 3 or 6 at a time, and then dare you to use the Kids when you absolutely have to.  THEN they'll all-in you and good night.

Vial's glacially slow.  Fish in most cases absolutely has to have their disruption pieces (the absolute best ones being creatures) on the second turn.  Vial at best will get that guy on the third turn - too slow in modern Vintage.  I like Vial, because it allows me to keep my mana open to annoy the opponent in other ways.  It's just a turn too slow now.

[brianpk80]

If Kids are on the board, they won't all-in you like that.  They'll just crash for 3 or 6 at a time, and then dare you to use the Kids when you absolutely have to.  THEN they'll all-in you and good night.

Ichorid attacking for only 3 or 6 damage each turn sounds like Fish is good shape, no?  I see what you're saying here, but even if Ichord modifies its playstyle as you indicate, giving Fish Time Walk after Time Walk doesn't sound like a great strategy for them.  Plus, they wouldn't even see the Children coming most of the time if they're shooting out of Vial @ 1. 

Vial's glacially slow.  Fish in most cases absolutely has to have their disruption pieces (the absolute best ones being creatures) on the second turn.  Vial at best will get that guy on the third turn - too slow in modern Vintage.  I like Vial, because it allows me to keep my mana open to annoy the opponent in other ways.  It's just a turn too slow now.

With a swarm of good 1 casting cost creatures now (Children, Stormscape, Martyrs, Weathered Wayfarer, Gorilla, Lavamancer), Vial comes online a lot sooner than the third turn.  I've always coupled it with maindeck Tormod's Crypt to help balance out the one turn investment in the Vial.  Crypt is an all around the board great disruption piece, very comparable to Null Rod in terms of power, but much cheaper, having applicability v. a wider array of decks, and an effect that survives bounce.   

Vial v. Null Rod depends on the build and preference of the player.  I think they're both viable in T1. 

-BPK

[Metman]

Vial vs. Rod is a metagame choice in my opinion.  It is what I base my fish deck on considering Fish is a metagame deck.  If I expect Drains or aggro than you better bet I'm going to be running the Vials.  If I expect combo/Gifts and Stax expect the Rods.  Both are relevant it just depends on the metagame. 

[Gekoratel]

Vial v. Null Rod depends on the build and preference of the player.

If modern fish decks are running 0 null rods, 0 chalice, and only 2 true believers it seems like the combo matchup goes from being good to terrible. Are you at least replacing the Rods with CotV?  Also are fish players dropping True Believers because combo is not a large enough part of the meta? 
From what I've seen most fish decks aren't running that many creatures which makes Vial an odd choice.  Two main benefits of vial is it allows you to play more guys than your mana allows and circumvent counters.  It seems like the average fish deck would only benefit from the latter.

[brianpk80]

If modern fish decks are running 0 null rods, 0 chalice, and only 2 true believers it seems like the combo matchup goes from being good to terrible. Are you at least replacing the Rods with CotV?  Also are fish players dropping True Believers because combo is not a large enough part of the meta? 
From what I've seen most fish decks aren't running that many creatures which makes Vial an odd choice.  Two main benefits of vial is it allows you to play more guys than your mana allows and circumvent counters.  It seems like the average fish deck would only benefit from the latter.

It depends on how the Vial list is built.  I run a lot of creatures at both the 1 slot and 2 slot, as well as Tormod's Crypt, Force of Will, and some other disruption based on what I anticipate.  Chalice is hit and miss and I can't justify running it anymore, especially with the rise of aggro and aggro-control.  It's horrible if you're not going first, and Chalice @ 1 messes up your own deck just as much as the opponent's unless (big if) you have a Vial that you're willing to leave stagnant @ 1 for the rest of the game.  Chalice @ 2 costs 4 and is the last thing Fish ever wants to see.  Chalice @ 3 just isn't happening with Fish until maybe the 8th turn when it's too late to really matter. 

I think Chalice is a great card in Workshop.dec but its strength doesn't translate reliably into Fish.  Daze is just as random and inconsistent but I'd run Daze over Chalice any day.  For disruption against broken decks, I find Tormod's Crypt to buy more time and do more than Null Rod.  It's quicker (0 casting cost) and harms the opponent in ways that can't be undone (Gifts/Long don't run Stifle/Trickbind/Wipe Away) by Rebuild/Chain/Hurkyl's which everyone seems to be running.  Plus, no matter what deck you're playing against, just about every realistic early kill out there involves the graveyard in some way (Will, Dragon, Ill-Gotten, Ichorid) and holding that off for just a turn or two is usually all it takes for Vial to handle the rest. 

The other two advantages to Vial, in addition to cheating mana costs and escaping counters, are negating bounce and having instant-responses in the form of creatures.  Vial -> True Believer in response to Tendrils or Mindslaver is such a huge swing in the game, it's almost always the deciding play when it happens (which isn't that rare).  Vial -> Gorilla Shaman at end of turn is also ridiculous in the early game.  Vial -> Jotun Grunt during opponent's attack phase is another big play in an aggro/Fish mirror.  Meddling Mage, Prodigy, Bouncer, and Gilded Drake also are insane with AEther Vial.

-BPK

[oneofchaos]

See you at the clash sir

[Metman]

Vial v. Null Rod depends on the build and preference of the player.

If modern fish decks are running 0 null rods, 0 chalice, and only 2 true believers it seems like the combo matchup goes from being good to terrible. Are you at least replacing the Rods with CotV?  Also are fish players dropping True Believers because combo is not a large enough part of the meta? 
From what I've seen most fish decks aren't running that many creatures which makes Vial an odd choice.  Two main benefits of vial is it allows you to play more guys than your mana allows and circumvent counters.  It seems like the average fish deck would only benefit from the latter.

I think that Brian summed up the strength of Vial well but I would like to add something.  It cheats casting costs and becomes an avalanche of threats that no deck can keep up with.  I would also submit that True Believer is not the only threat fish runs to battle combo.  Mage, Children, and to a lesser extent Grunt are must answer creatures that come down.  They have to counter them or bounce them which sucks up resources.  They pack the right tools to fight the critters but they are a thorn in their side.  Mages and Children are also better in multiples.  Vial helps accelerate them into play in turns 2-4 in addition to playing them at instant speed and uncounterable. 

[nataz]

In my experience,the UW fish match-up vs. Ichorid is positive against a 5-color mana base, and negitive against a 2 color mana base.

5 color opens up the ichorid player to an easier wasteland screw, doesn't reshuffle after grunt triggers (trapping important cards on the bottom of the deck), and loses out on some important hate cards like massacre and wonder.
 

[TheDeadMan]

It would seem to me the easyest way to deal with the ichorid problem would be: samurai of the pale curtain. I must admit the  WW might be abit of an issue, though if he does hit the game swings dramatically back in your favor.

[Dxfiler]

I've had some time to reflect on UW fish since SCG VA... here is my stance on cards right now-

Isamaru- Still as good as it ever was.

Savannah Lions/Stormscape Apprentice- Lions.  The clock is too good.  Apprentice's biggest plus is now mainly that it's blue.  The old 'it stops colossus' argument is outdated due to the printing of Wipe Away.  That one card just invalidates Tinker/Colossus.  That doesn't mean people will stop running colossus... they won't.  What it does mean, and was very present at the last SCG, was a massive decrease in maindeck colossus.  Alot of decks just went with different threats where Colossus would have been.  Pentavus was a big replacement card.  With colossus on the decline, there's just no real reason to cut your clock in half.  The extra damage each turn from Lions is well worth it.

Wipe Away- From my above description of the card, you'd think I would be a big fan of it in UW fish... I'm not.  I tried it as a one of to give it a test run and it was horrid.  The three mana threshold is a tricky one for this deck, and if colossus isn't waiting to be bounced then the Wipe Away would almost always be better suited as another spell.  I wished it was daze when I had it day 1. 

Mystical Tutor- I was not and still am not a fan of this card because it detracts from what UW fish wants to do.  UW fish isn't about card selection and silver bullets... it's about threat redudancy.  You just want to barrage the opponent with an endless stream of quick, expendable creatures whil constantly applying pressue through various disruptors.  Mystical does not help achieve that goal.  It more often than not fetches a card that will not resolve.  Fetching up Anectral Recall wth this is especially tricky right now because of all the Misdirections flying around.  Mystical just isn't worth the space due to this.

Misdirection- I've been previously big on this card, then not so big... I'm back to being big on it.  It's usefulness depends greatly on the metagame, and right now it's ridiculously good.  I had 0 on day one and wished it was included.  For day 2 I just used a single copy and it won me at least 3 games on its own.  The fact that it can just cripple an opponent who kept a risky hand with nothing grea but Ancestral more than justifies it in the deck.  I'm definitely running at least 2 copies of it in any future versions of the deck for the near future.

Stifle- Oh Stifle.  How I used to love thee.  Now I don't, let me count the ways :p   Stifle is just a card that's completely expected from opponents right now.  Everyone is playing around it, and that just won't do for a card that gives maximum value when unexpected.  That's not to say it won't have value later on, but right now it just isn't worth a spot in the deck. 

Trickbind- An entirely different card than stifle.  I look as Trickbind much in the way as I do Orim's Chant.  Unlike Stifle, Its job isn't to hinder an opponent's gameplan early.  Trickbind really shines as a backbreaker type card.  The problem is it isn't going to save you from a Yawg's will, where Chant Does.  Trickbind in theory saves you from a tendrils, but that's only if your opponent is a) stupid or b) desparate.  Any good combo player worth their salt is not going to just blindly walk into a trickbind.  It may be that they are forced to just go for a kill for whatever reason and if you have the trickbind, you have the trickbind.  Those scenarios will come up few and far between, and they should never come up post board.  Xantid Swarms and Duress put an easy stop to Trcikbind, where with Orim's Chant it will at least buy you another turn.  Trickbind just isn't worth it in my opinion.

Orim's chant- HI!  I'M ORIM'S CHANT.  I'M REALLY GOOD IN A FISH BOARD.  SOME PEOPLE WILL TELL YOU MY RETARDED LITTLE BROTHER TRUE BELIEVER IS BETTER...

THEY'RE LYING.  :p

I've just won too many matches off the back of Chant to buy the old argument that True Believer is better.  TB is certainly good, but as I've said countless times... if I have to choose between chant or TB, I'm going with chant every single time.  Nowadays chant is very expected from fish, and that's totally fine.  It keeps them guessing if you have it or not, and it can't just be massacred away like a TB.  Yes, if you have TB and Mage out it's almost impossible to lose... if massacre or pyroclasm isn't cast.  Pretty much all combo players have adjusted to fish creatures by now and include either massacre or pyroclasm in the board.  This is not a huge issue for the fish player if they don't devote their ENTIRE combo stopping strategy to on board creatures.  You need to mix it up with non creature threats as well.  Against combo there just is not better non-creature threat than an Orim's Chant.

True Believer- Someone just skipped over the last paragraph.  I'll add one more thing- the double white is actually tricky to consistently get, as no other creature in the deck requires double of one mana.  The WW in TB's casting cost restricts the number of early plays you can do alot, mainly dropping wastes/strips.  You want to be able to play those cards, and you still can if you run a card similar to TB but easier to cast... like Orim's Chant :p

Tormod's Crypt- I'm debating this in the board right now.  I don't think it's really good unless against Ichorid or Long... particularly Ichorid.  The sideboard slot for this card depends entirely on how much Ichorid is out and about.  The coming weeks will tell.  I suspect Ichorid to see a brief rise, then promptly go back down to the 1-2 seen at most per tourney... where it currently sits.

Energy Flux- Just not worth the sideboard space right now.  It's a solid but not really needed card against Stax...and it's really only good in that one match.  Most Stax players are used to Flux by now, and many of the good ones just ignore it.  A welder often works right around it, and opposing seal of cleansings are also good answers to flux.  I like the fourth Kataki in the board as well as the four seals.  I think that gives you a roughly 50/50 match on stax, and if you play right you should be able to come ahead when it counts.

Threads of Disloyalty- Every time I think of cutting this card, I run into a deck with dark confidants or jotun grunts.  Even better, a deck with both.  Then I realize it isn't going anywhere :p

Daze- <3 Daze.  Took me a while to really be sold on it, but I am definitely a big fan of it at the moment.  In a build packing rods/fow's/misD and the full complement of wastes/strip, it's absolutely golden.  Great late game, solid middle game, and mainly pitching to other cards late game... and that's totally fine.  UW Fish isn't about surviving the late game, it's about making sure the game never goes late.  Daze is just great at giving you that extra turn you need to finish them off.  It pretty much took Stifles spot in hindering the opponent because a) you don't need mana to do it B) it can theoretically counter anything and most imporantly c) Even if they know about it and actively play around it, Daze is buying you time that you wouldn't have otherwise.  I'm a fan of the full four right now, but I could see that number being cut back.  You definitely want at least two, just to keep the threat of one constant in the mind of your opponent. 

Those are all the questionable cards in my mind.  All of the other cards in the deck are staples that just don't need explanations as far as I'm concerned.  Grunt/MeddlingMage/Kataki/FOW/Brainstorm/Plow and the broken 1 of's have all done their job countless times and are proven staples.  However, they aren't THE BACKBONE...
that's right null rod, daddy still loves you.

If I were to play UW fish again in the near future, I'd stick with pretty much my card for card version of what I placed 3rd with on Day 2 of Star City Virginia.  Here's the list if you aren't familar with it:

// Lands
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    2  Island
    1  Plains
    4  Flooded Strand
    4  Tundra
    1  Polluted Delta
    1  Windswept Heath
    1  Hallowed Fountain

// Creatures
    4  Meddling Mage
    3  Kataki, War's Wage
    3  Jotun Grunt
    3  Isamaru, Hound of Konda
    3  Savannah Lions

// Spells
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Force of Will
    4  Swords to Plowshares
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Ancestral Recall
    3  Null Rod
    1  Time Walk
    4  Daze
    1  Misdirection

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 4  Seal of Cleansing
SB: 3  Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 3  Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1  Trickbind
SB: 3  Orim's Chant

I'd make that trickbind a fourth rod.  Possibly find room for another misdirection, cutting a daze or plow.  Other than that I'm very pleased with the above version of the deck and would recommend it to anyone thinking about trying UW fish.  I don't think it can evolve much further given the current state of the metagame, which is why I wouldn't really make many changes.  Gifts/Long/Stax are the big ones, with Bomberman sneaking up alot in the background.  I feel the deck has even to great matchups against all of those decks, you just have to practice alot.  Learn what the other lists have and anticipate how you'll play against them.  If you do that, you're in good shape

Long Live Teh Fish

- Dave Feinstein

[keys]

Why does Ninja of the Deep Hours not fit into the deck?  He's the second best draw engine available to fish, after Confidant, and it looks like your deck could support him pretty well with so many Lions.  He's also great at resetting Grunts or Meddling Mages if need be.  I think you could reasonably cut an Isamaru (I noticed how you drew too many during one of your SCG matches) and a Kataki for 2 Ninjas.  What are your feelings on that?

[Implacable]

I'm a big fan of Ninja, and have not looked back since cutting Brainstorms for them in my personal build.  In order to accomodate the change, which is not so friendly for the Legends in the deck, I cut an some legends for 2 Icatian Javelineers, which are excellent due to my metagame being packed with Confidants, Welders, and spirit tokens.  The big problem with Brainstorm is that it is not a threat in and of itself.  Many, if not most, of the decks in the format severely punish its casting; you need to be playing nothing but threats every turn just to keep up with Gifts or PitchLong.   

[kirdape3]

Ninja's both only good on the second turn AND it doesn't increase your clock any.  Fish's biggest problem isn't that it has too few cards - far from it.  It's that it doesn't have enough mana to deploy all of them in a relevant time.  Ninja costs 2 mana plus one or two for the guy you invested, doesn't disrupt the opponent directly, and generally is not a slot in my deck that I would want to spend on strictly card drawing.

I'm still completely convinced that True Believer's awesome, but I pack a lot more ways to gum up combo decks than the last list does.

[Nantuko Rice]

Standstill makes ninja good too. But if you play SS you might as well play factories too.

You know what would be a nice improvement to these boards... that little thing on top that says "You have 0 new messages." It needs to be made bigger because Dave can't see that he has 1 new message from Jason Zheng.

[Dxfiler]

The big problem with Brainstorm is that it is not a threat in and of itself.  Many, if not most, of the decks in the format severely punish its casting; you need to be playing nothing but threats every turn just to keep up with Gifts or PitchLong.

Brainstorm is not a threat in that it can't deal damage, but it keeps tempo flowing by manipulating what you'll draw.  Against gifts/pitchlong, just about the worst thing you could do is play nothing but threats with no backup.  If you play creature after creature, you might as well be playing goblins.  Against both decks, I find dropping a couple beaters (3 at max), is more than enough.  Gifts especially has to react quicker than planned.  When they react, you want to have the spells that bamboozle them.  Whether it's daze/misD/null rodForce/chant... any combination of that.  The point is to get the creatures down early and then just disrupt them non-stop. 

As for ninja, most of my arguments against it have already been posted.  Just to sum-up how I feel about it, I view ninja as a poor man's dark confidant.  It takes much longer to get online and if stopped by the opponent (main two ways probably plow and wipe away), it's a huge tempo loss.  If I wanted ninja in the deck right now I'd just add black for confidant.  Right now I don't think UW fish needs either one.  I respect people using ninja, and he's certainly good in alot of other versions of fish (particularly URBana).  I just don't like him in UW.

On Javilineers, they are a solid card but a little too narrow for my taste.  I view stormscape apprentice in a very similar light to them.  Both cards are reactionary and do not really beatdown.  My version concestrates heavily on just beating down with any two creatures.  They're all interchangeable.  If slaver comes back in a big, big way orconfidants start showing up in droves, I could see javilineers in the deck.  As for right now, I don't think the spot is warranted for them.  If they go in, a 2 power beater goes out...and that messes significantly with the clock on the deck.

As for Jason Zheng, check your AIM :p

Thanks for comments as always. 

- Dave Feinstein

[Implacable]

The big problem with Brainstorm is that it is not a threat in and of itself.  Many, if not most, of the decks in the format severely punish its casting; you need to be playing nothing but threats every turn just to keep up with Gifts or PitchLong.

Brainstorm is not a threat in that it can't deal damage, but it keeps tempo flowing by manipulating what you'll draw.  Against gifts/pitchlong, just about the worst thing you could do is play nothing but threats with no backup.  If you play creature after creature, you might as well be playing goblins.  Against both decks, I find dropping a couple beaters (3 at max), is more than enough.  Gifts especially has to react quicker than planned.  When they react, you want to have the spells that bamboozle them.  Whether it's daze/misD/null rodForce/chant... any combination of that.  The point is to get the creatures down early and then just disrupt them non-stop. 

As for ninja, most of my arguments against it have already been posted.  Just to sum-up how I feel about it, I view ninja as a poor man's dark confidant.  It takes much longer to get online and if stopped by the opponent (main two ways probably plow and wipe away), it's a huge tempo loss.  If I wanted ninja in the deck right now I'd just add black for confidant.  Right now I don't think UW fish needs either one.  I respect people using ninja, and he's certainly good in alot of other versions of fish (particularly URBana).  I just don't like him in UW.

On Javilineers, they are a solid card but a little too narrow for my taste.  I view stormscape apprentice in a very similar light to them.  Both cards are reactionary and do not really beatdown.  My version concestrates heavily on just beating down with any two creatures.  They're all interchangeable.  If slaver comes back in a big, big way orconfidants start showing up in droves, I could see javilineers in the deck.  As for right now, I don't think the spot is warranted for them.  If they go in, a 2 power beater goes out...and that messes significantly with the clock on the deck.

As for Jason Zheng, check your AIM :p

Thanks for comments as always. 

- Dave Feinstein

The Ninja is, in a lot of ways, a poor man's Confidant.  Unfortunately, in a U/W deck, he's all that we have in terms of card advantage, which I view as crucial.  I am also utterly unworried about having him get bounced, because if a control deck foolishly decides to bounce him, then they are not bouncing my Rods, through which they have trouble going off/broken.

I agree with you on the subject of Javelineers.  Unfortunately, my metagame is not a balanced one, and he will have a target in >90% of the games that I play, be the target Welder, Confidant, Shaman, or Lions.  Furthermore, because I run Ninja, his utility increases, which I appreciate.

[Dxfiler]

I change my comment on old man of the sea- I think it's a needed card right now.  Pwns the bomberman and the fact that it's a guy helps more than hurts in the mirror matches.  Against TMWA style creature hate decks, which have seen a massive rise in popularity in different forms (I consider Hide/Seek Control in the same vein), Old man is MUCH better than threads.  It's another guy they have to deal with, and those decks run less creatures than you so the fact that you have to wait a turn to use Old Man is usually meaningless.  It enables one bob flip, that's the major drawback.

Going back to bomberman, I expect its popularity to grow.  It's quietly put up top 8's in just about every big tourney for the last 6 months, and only one or two people pilot it per tourney.  I think Fish can have the edge in this match, but without Old man it's even at best.

So now I'm on the 'old man' train, but I still love threads.  Maybe 2 and 2 is right, cutting a jitte in the board.  2/2/2 doesn't change the 6 card swap I usually do of rods + 3 other cards, depending on the match. 

Another thing on sideboarding, I've changed my position on Daze and basically always keep it in.  This has paid huge dividends, as people think I board it out, much like I always did with stifle, so they no longer play around... hence walking into it constantly games 2 and 3.  I think the trick is to not side out ALL the dazes.  Keeping at least 2 in seems right against practically every match.

I'm on a new stance for Ancestral Recall as well.  I will no longer play the card without counter backup unless I'm in a desperation situation.  There's just too many Misdirections flying around.  Fish has enough early drops where not playing recall and waiting for backup shouldn't really hurt.  I know the 'wait to play the best card in the game' statement is probably blowing some people's minds... but the number of games I've seen people recover from where their opponent stole their Ancestral is next to none.  Obviously disregard this strategy if you're not against a deck with counters.  Be aware of it post board against a deck with potential to play REB's and Pyroblasts...and even be leary of a deck like URBana that maindecks blasts.

There's a ton of talk on Trickbind right now, but I'm still not sold on it.  You want a better hate card against gifts that costs 2 mana?  Shadow of Doubt.

That's all my updates for now.  I didn't play the deck in the last type one tourney I played, but my friend who doesn't play vintage borrowed it and made top 8.  He then lost to TMWA, which then beat me in top 4.  A curse upon Dan Yarrington.  :p

May fish treat you well.

- Dave Feinstein

[GrandpaBelcher]

You want a better hate card against gifts that costs 2 mana?

Speaking of...

Have you or anyone given any testing to Remand?  I've been using that for a while now, and it's awesome.  Actually, in my last tournament, I had it used against me, and I was even excited about it then.  So many times it's an instant-speed cantrip Time Walk.  Right now it's unexpected and nobody plays around it.  At mid-range it screws up mana-math, and at the very worst (i.e. when you don't even have a FoW to pitch to), you hit something stupid with it to draw a card.  I need some more chances to try it out against combo, but it's been terrific against Stax especially, but also against Drains and in the mirror.

Plus, it gives you that silly Type-2 feeling in a Type-1 environment.

[Dxfiler]

Have you or anyone given any testing to Remand?

Remand has been lurking in the back of my mind, but I just don't think it's worth it if you already have Daze/MisD/Fow in the deck.  There is another 1U casting cost card that I have been testing maindeck and it's been great...

and it isn't trickbind :p

Echoing Truth.

After going undefeated with fish last week at Myriad, I found that I was happy with the entire maindeck except for the 2 trickbind spot.  I wanted something that could get me out of a stax lock and also deal with colossus.  Also, you can do plenty of stack tricks with Etruth when you have creatures out that are about to die, esp. grunts.

So far the 2 echoing truths have been fantastic.  This is my most up to date version of the deck:

// Lands
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    2  Island
    4  Flooded Strand
    4  Tundra
    1  Polluted Delta
    1  Windswept Heath
    2  Plains

// Creatures
    4  Meddling Mage
    3  Kataki, War's Wage
    3  Jotun Grunt
    2  Isamaru, Hound of Konda
    2  Savannah Lions

// Spells
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Force of Will
    3  Swords to Plowshares
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Ancestral Recall
    3  Null Rod
    1  Time Walk
    4  Daze
    2  Misdirection
    2  Echoing Truth

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 4  Seal of Cleansing
SB: 3  Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3  Orim's Chant
SB: 1  Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3  Old Man of the Sea

I'm content with 3 plow main.  I don't think 4 is needed maindeck even if the fourth will be sided in more often than not.  I like the flexibility that two echoing truth gives.  I've completely fallen in love with daze and often double daze people.  Four seems like the right number, as it often changes how your opponent plays.  Old man seems like a top priority right now.  Too much bomberman flooding tourneys.  Against gifts and pitch long/grim long, I find siding out plows is fine.  With 2 echoing truths main I just don't fear colossus anymore.  I used to side out daze, but usually regretted it.  They are still good on the draw and simply amazing on the play.  Fourth Kataki could become a fourth rod, but I prefer kataki because he walks and is more effective against Stax.  Cutting down on isamarus/lions was painful, but I think the curve is just right.  I haven't really been creature light despite going down 2-4 creatures.  Old man helps up that creature count post board.  Too often I found myself stuck with threads in hand.  The only time it's clearly better than old man is when you're up against confidant.  Any other time old man is just as good if not better.  I really like Old man in the goblins matchup, since he blocks every non pile-driver threat.  I could see doing a threads/old man split of 2/2, but I prefer to just stick with the Old Man for now.  If bomberman dies down then Threads could certainly come back, but bomberman is VERY popular in my area.  It seems to be picking up in other areas as well.

Those are my fish updates for now.  I don't know if I'll run the deck at TMD 10.  Depends how I feel.  I believe this list could be piloted this a top 16 finish at the very least, but Waterbury doesn't cut to top 16 anymore.  Playing this deck is a grind over 8-9 rounds.  There are many tough decisions evert single turn, and they are usually subtle ones.  If you play this list or anything like it, I strongly urge to put the work in.  It's nowhere as easy to play as it looks.  Good luck to all fish mages.

- Dave Feinstein   

[Gabethebabe]

There's a ton of talk on Trickbind right now, but I'm still not sold on it.  You want a better hate card against gifts that costs 2 mana?  Shadow of Doubt.

Yesterday I ran UW Fish to lose two matches vs Gifts and going 4-2 overall.

I had 2 trickbind, 3 Chant and 2 Spell Snare to side in. Unfortunately I didn´t draw Chant/Trickbind but the spell snare treated me well. Rather than a 2-mana card I´d prefer a 1-mana card that works vs Gifts. Mana Drain, Scroll, F/I, Wish, Recoup, Walk, Demonic, Pyroclasm are all countered by the little unmisdirectable spell. Have you tried it?

I one game my opponent played Gifts with Drain backup, I had just two mana open, but could ancestral, he drained, I Spell Snared the Drain, drew 3, found fow and countered his Gifts. I lost anyway because he made a couple good topdecks, but without Spell Snare this game would have been lost turn 2.

[breed]

Hello all,

I played my first T1 tournament in France using a UW Fish UnPowered, here the decklist:

4 Toundra
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Lande Venteuse
2 Ile
2 Plaine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

3 Isamaru
3 Savannah Lion
3 Kataki
3 Ninja of the deep hours
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Meddling Mage

4 FOW
3 Daze
1 Misdirection
3 Stifle
4 Sword to plowshare
4 Brainstorm
2 Null Rod

Here my results:

2-0 against a Mono Black
0-2 against Bird Shit
2-0 against Dragon
0-2 against UR Fish (Lavamancer is so bad!)
2-0 against TPS
2-1 against Vial Goblins

I really loved to play with this deck, i will try to find pieces of power (tral and moxes are on the road). Against combo, the deck is really amazing, you have so much disrupts (daze, fow, stifle). I played in a field full of random decks (43 players), in such metagame, Null Rod were not really good. I really loved Daze, it's so good to use it. Ninjas were not very usefull, i will replace them in next tournament.

Thanks to Dave Feinstein for the reports and deck lists!

[CwaM]

I got few questions on your list Feinstein
Why 4 tundras? Are they really all needed? I think you can easily cut 1 tundra for 1 more basic land, which would change the mirror match quite a bit.
4 dazes?? I mean, ok you'll own your opponent with the first one, then he'll play around and they will be useless
Echoing truth for?
Isamaru and Lions: They do absolutely nothing but beat for 2, I can't support them anymore.

About the side:
Seal of cleansing? Stax will play chalice for 2 asap, so I think It'd be smart to play around
Old man? This guy is good but slow :\ and i Don't llike the UU in the CC


btw, FYI here's the list I played at the Vintage Side Event at Worlds (no top 8, 8 rounds):
4 tundra
1 lande venteuse
1 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
1 ile
1 ile enneigée
2 plaine
1 strip mine
4 wastelands
1 mox pearl
1 mox sapphire
1 black lotus

2 isamaru
1 lions des savanes
3 Jotun grunt
3 True believer
3 kataki
4 meddling mage

1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 daze
2 misdirection
4 force of will
3 null rod
3 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
3 stifle

//side
3 energy flux
3 samourai du rideau pale
3 seal of cleasing
3 Umezawa's jitte
3 Threads of disloyalty

R1: Pitch Long 2-0
R2: Mirror   1-1
R3: Absolutely no idea what he was playing since I helped him a bit in his mana screw  2-0
R4: Oath 2-0
R5: Fish with confidant 2-1
R6: French Deck (called ZeBrainStorm) 2-1
R7: Friend playing Dragon with Squee, he's the only being 6-0 so I concede and we'll split
R8: CSlaver 2-0

I did hate savannah lions and isamaru each time I was playing them
I'll cut a tundra, and change the SB, because playing cards with WW and UU in the casting cost sux

[bronaldo]

Is there any merit to the idea of adding crucible to fish as an added tool for disruption?

It only serves to make daze better, increase the time you have to kill them before they can recover from all the disruption, and generally increases the power level of null rod (not that it isnt high already).

I've been a fish player across the formats and type one is a format where resources matter the most.  This would also justify the reduction of the isamaru/lions counts as well, because if you complete the lock you have almost all the time in the word to kill them, barring bounce then resolved yawg will or something crazy.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Is there any merit to the idea of adding crucible to fish as an added tool for disruption?

It only serves to make daze better, increase the time you have to kill them before they can recover from all the disruption, and generally increases the power level of null rod (not that it isnt high already).

I've been a fish player across the formats and type one is a format where resources matter the most.  This would also justify the reduction of the isamaru/lions counts as well, because if you complete the lock you have almost all the time in the word to kill them, barring bounce then resolved yawg will or something crazy.

When I was playing WTF back in 2003 I added Crucible to the deck with some success (although never more than 1-2), but that was back when people still played stuff like 4cc and Tog and Wasteland was a lot better.  If it gets going it can be amazing, but I don't think that it's a very good addition to UW fish at the moment because it's too expensive and slow.  It also doesn't increase your clock or actively disrupt your opponent early on.  Look at a list, and then try to figure out what to cut for it---I'm pretty sure every other card will be better.

@Feinstein: I like the 4 Dazes in the new build because I always love seeing them in my opening hand.  Your opponent either has to wait so that they have 1 extra mana for every spell they cast (which gives you a lot of tempo by slowing them down) or risk walking their business into it and getting screwed.  It also make all of your other mana denial elements more potent.  And late games it gets brainstormeed back or pitched to Fow, of course.

I agree about the 3 Swords, also; I think that 4 is often excessive, and especially so with the 2 Echoing Truth (it's always frustrating to have your opponent cast some non-creature threat while sitting with multiple swords in your hand).  I've never really tried Echoing Truth so it's difficult for me to comment on it, but it sure is great for getting rid of Colossus and can buy tempo or take care of random hate, etc.

I'm not sure about decreasing the creature count so much (14 seems a tad low), but you certainly have a lot of disruption.

[wethepeople]

Is there any merit to the idea of adding crucible to fish as an added tool for disruption?

It only serves to make daze better, increase the time you have to kill them before they can recover from all the disruption, and generally increases the power level of null rod (not that it isnt high already).

I've been a fish player across the formats and type one is a format where resources matter the most.  This would also justify the reduction of the isamaru/lions counts as well, because if you complete the lock you have almost all the time in the word to kill them, barring bounce then resolved yawg will or something crazy.

I actually have a UW Fish build with a red splash that runs a Crucible of Worlds in the "Random" slot. Since the deck focuses on the mana denial plan so greatly, Crucible is great in addition to the four maindeck Wastes. I personally would never maindeck more than one in Fish, because they aren't something you want showing up all the time because they generally require a lot of work to get out.

If you are worried about your mana base, Crucible is a great card to help stabilize your land. Since I play a three color mana base, it is usually weaker than the common UW Fish build, but with so many fetches, it makes it easier to get what you need, and with Cruci, you can get just about whatever you need all game long.

I doubt Crucible would work in all Fish builds because it is hard to devote three mana in Fish because I frequently like to drop some dudes and build tempo before I mess around with them, but when it is playable, it is a powerhouse when teamed with any sort of Strip effect.

[Dxfiler]

I got few questions on your list Feinstein
Why 4 tundras? Are they really all needed? I think you can easily cut 1 tundra for 1 more basic land, which would change the mirror match quite a bit.

Why not 4 tundras? :p  I don't think switching one for a basic is going to change the stastistics in the mirror enough to be worth having only 3... I'm pretty much never sad to havea  tundra.  The beauty of UW is it can absorb lots of wastes/strip effects... everything in the deck costs 2 or less. 

4 dazes?? I mean, ok you'll own your opponent with the first one, then he'll play around and they will be useless
Echoing truth for?

Playing four daze means you have a high percentage of getting one opening hand... they are amazing opening hand.  Simply amazing on the play... solid on the draw.  They get better on the draw in multiples.  At worst you pitch them to MisD/Fow.  I look at dazes as the aggro version of mana drain.  Daze is just as key in this deck as mana drain is in slaver or gifts.  They increase your odds of winning so much more in UW fish.  On their own they aren't anything special, but in combination with wastes/strips/other counters/null rod and little beaters to apply pressure, daze wins MANY games.  I regret not playing with the card earlier.

Isamaru and Lions: They do absolutely nothing but beat for 2, I can't support them anymore.

For me personally, there's no reason I can justify to myself for not running them, but we live in completely different parts of the world... hence different metagames. 
All I can say personally is those two cards have singlehandedly won me alot of games.  People roll their eyes at the 2 power 1 mana beaters and I'm fine with that... a huge reason of why their so effective is because people don't respect them.  They easily average 6-8 points on their own.  With more than one of either out, it's very easy to just swing with them and never have to play another spell.  I can't tell you how many times my opponent is holding mana drains while they are drying to these 1 drops and I simply pass the turn instead of playing 2 drops.  My pressure is already on the board in the form of lions/hounds, why walk into drains?   

All I can say is we live on different parts of the globe, so maybe not running them will work out for you.  I noticed the fish that came in second at the tourney you played in ran stormscape apprentices over each of this.  It looks like that was a good call for him. 

About the side:
Seal of cleansing? Stax will play chalice for 2 asap, so I think It'd be smart to play around
Old man? This guy is good but slow :\ and i Don't llike the UU in the CC

Seal is for more than just stax.  It's pretty much your way to beat oath and can randomly be useful in other matchups.  I find myself bringing them in against other fish more and more, since you're pretty much ALWAYS up against a jitte or threads post board these days in the mirror.  My recent change to Old man is reflected in the greatly increased popularity of bomberman.  I didn't notice alot of bomberman in your Spain tourney, and did spot a good amount of fish... so threads is probably going to be better for you.  For me it comes down to thread or oldman, and although I'll probably never permanently go with one over the other, both have UU in the casting cost and it hasn't been a major problem for me yet.

 

btw, FYI here's the list I played at the Vintage Side Event at Worlds (no top 8, 8 rounds):
4 tundra
1 lande venteuse
1 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
1 ile
1 ile enneigée
2 plaine
1 strip mine
4 wastelands
1 mox pearl
1 mox sapphire
1 black lotus

2 isamaru
1 lions des savanes
3 Jotun grunt
3 True believer
3 kataki
4 meddling mage

1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 daze
2 misdirection
4 force of will
3 null rod
3 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
3 stifle

//side
3 energy flux
3 samourai du rideau pale
3 seal of cleasing
3 Umezawa's jitte
3 Threads of disloyalty

R1: Pitch Long 2-0
R2: Mirror   1-1
R3: Absolutely no idea what he was playing since I helped him a bit in his mana screw  2-0
R4: Oath 2-0
R5: Fish with confidant 2-1
R6: French Deck (called ZeBrainStorm) 2-1
R7: Friend playing Dragon with Squee, he's the only being 6-0 so I concede and we'll split
R8: CSlaver 2-0

I did hate savannah lions and isamaru each time I was playing them
I'll cut a tundra, and change the SB, because playing cards with WW and UU in the casting cost sux

I don't like True Believer very much in your version because the WW is very tricky to pull off early.  You know where I stand on 1 daze already, but just to repeat:

 I LIKE DAZE.  I THINK YOU SHOULD RUN MORE.  :p

Samurai of the pale curtain in your board doesn't seem very effective.  I'm guessing you board it in for combo... and quite frankly nothing shines better against combo in the sideboard than Orim's Chant.

I don't know what "land venetuse" is, but the mana base looks fine.

Thank you for showing me your list, it's good to hear from people outside of the U.S. playing the deck and sharing their thoughts on it.

As for other recent replies, it seems people are looking into crucible alot.  I don't personally think the card is needed but the train of thought behind running it is certainly reasonable.  It's probably never bad to have, but keep in mind it costs 3 and with 4 daze particularly, getting the card out early before walking into drains is very tricky.

If I'm going to play a 3 mana one of, i'd probably play frantic search first... but as I've said in the past, I personally don't think search is needed in the deck.

Thanks again for the comments

- Dave Feinstein