Time Spiral's First Restricted Card

[Komatteru]

Forget about Lotus Bloom.  Check this thing out:

Magus of the Jar
Creature-Human Wizard (R)
T, Sacrifice Magus of the Jar: Each player removes his or her hand from the game face down, and draws seven cards. At end of turn, each player discards his or her hand and returns to his or her hand each card he or she removed from the game this way.
3/3

Can you say insane?  Given that passing the turn after casting Jar is usually a given, the fact that this is a creature is pretty irrelevant.  In fact, being a creature is better than being an artifact, as this can't be Welded or Rack and Ruined.  Null Rod doesn't stop it, and if it gets Pithing Needled, it still does something.

And don't bother with the "well, you can't Tinker for this."  Jar is not insane because of Tinker, nor is Tinker insane because of Jar.  Tinker is insane because it's fucking Tinker, and Jar is, hands down, the best draw 7 ever printed.

We now have another Jar.  And it's blue.  Yes, blue.  This means that it goes even better with Force of Will (and Misdirection).

Is this one headed for the restricted list instantly?  I think so.  Jar is not restricted because it's an artifact, and therefore abusable with Tinker and Welder.  Jar is restricted because it is an unbalanced effect, and usually leads to a win.

[freakish777]

You can also activate Jar immediately if you've got the mana to make use of it.

I don't think this will be restricted.  If any creature is going to get itself restricted, it's Goblin Welder.  And that's not happening for some time still.

[Whatever Works]

It will probably be restricted because of hype more then anything else if it does get restricted. However, I still think jar is 100x better because its weldable, and that its generic CC makes it easier. This card is very very hard to abuse b/c of the casting cost that makes it essentially a slightly worse version of diminishing returns (w/o card loss), and only slightly better then time spiral (if better at all)...

The double blue makes it hard to abuse in combo.

Is this card great? YES... How great it can be will remain to be seen... Well designed card regardless.

Kyle L.

[Machinus]

Jar is better for two reasons:

1) Colorless cost
2) Instant activation

Do you really think this is good enough to be restricted?

[kirdape3]

This guy's still retarded.  Creature removal is only barely relevant in this format, so it's a Jar for 3UU that makes you pass the turn.  I'm pretty sure that effect is still ridiculous.

That being said, what would you cut from a current combo deck to pack a couple of this guy?  5 mana is a lot, especially since you have to have double blue mana.

[houseplant]

I almost like the idea of siding this in against a fist deck that runs null rods and such. Play this guy, which will hold off their mage or whatever creature they have because unless it's a Grunt, or a thresh Bear this will kill them all, then next turn win.

but maybe siding in colossus would just be better. 

But if you want to stick with strickly combo, then he is kinda cool.


or maybe some slower combo deck with him and bobs, more control combo, with drains, then when you set up with mana pop him and win. Drains will help out since Drain could definitely get you the 3 colourless, and you already have to have UU for Drain.

[freakish777]

Passing the turn in a combo deck after investing in a 5 mana permanent isn't exactly something you want to do (I can see passing the turn after a 2nd turn bargain, that's about it, and even then if they try to destroy/bounce it, you draw in response).


EDIT:  I can definitely see it getting itself banned in Extended though.

[Moxlotus]

Passing the turn in a combo deck after investing in a 5 mana permanent isn't exactly something you want to do (I can see passing the turn after a 2nd turn bargain, that's about it, and even then if they try to destroy/bounce it, you draw in response).


EDIT:  I can definitely see it getting itself banned in Extended though.

What are you talking about?  Why would you want to try to go off when you probably don't have any lands untapped because you just cast this thing?

The double blue would probably keep it from decks like Pitch Long, but for its definitely worth testing in decks like Drain TPS.

This thing isn't nearly as insane as Jar, but with WotC's pre-restriction of Chrome Mox I predict this thing will start off on the list.

[warwizard87]

Its possable this could be used in a diffrant deck archtype. Perhaps a oath combo type deal.

[Komatteru]

EDIT:  I can definitely see it getting itself banned in Extended though.

Doubt it.  There's too much creature removal played in other formats.  Plus, I think activating this thing against Ichorid will make you lose instantly.  The point is this

Creature removal is only barely relevant in this format, so it's a Jar for 3UU that makes you pass the turn.  I'm pretty sure that effect is still ridiculous

[Tin_Mox5831]

Jar's effect is absurd. Period. This card is going to be an auto-restrict or else it will be abused in unrivaled fashion until they wise up about it. Sure, playing this thing in multiples would require a shift in the way decks are built in order to make efficient use of it, but the ability is so freaking bent. Also, Pitch Long always seems to have one spot that is up for debate and I think that a Jar that can pitch to Force and Mis-D is a pretty stellar candidate.

Later,
Dave

[Methuselahn]

Tap Bazaar, cast Shallow Grave.  Any number of ways to cheat guys into play could break this guy.  So yes, insane.

[The Atog Lord]

Well, I had before criticized the set for having old flavors but not being useful in older decks. This card is proof that I am wrong. Will Jar Person see Type One play? I'm not sure. But is it powerful enough that it will warrent serious testing? Absolutely. Oftentimes playing Memory Jar involves passing the turn. This card requires that passing of the turn, but oftentimes that's the right play anyways.

I view this card very much like a Battle of Wits that can be played in a sixty card deck. You play it, and if it and you survive to your next turn, you probably win.

And, for what it's worth, there has to be a fun (though likely non-Vintage) deck involving her and Teferi.

[M.Solymossy]

Leave it to me to make a drain deck that's kill is:

1 Tendrils
4 Magus of the jar
1 Recoup
1 Yawgmoths Will.

[Gabethebabe]

This card is not going to be restricted! How can you say that? it is completely unplayable in the combo decks we have now because the reasons already stated. You can´t make it cost 2U, you can cast it with Rituals, you have to wait a turn and you can´t weld it in.

It IS an interesting card and everybody will take a good look at it before deciding that it isn´t much better than Arcanis the Impotent. I mean decks with reanimation strategies haven´t worked in a while, why would they start working now.

[sundering jerk]

This card looks cool but it just doesn't have synergy. With jar you can weld it, tinker it, drain a force into it(and leave two blue open for drain instead of casting this), pitch it to thirst, and pump it out with a factory no problem. And with all this you can activate it immediately! this guy has to be cast normally and is a one time deal. Synergy is to important in our epic format to even consider this for testing. Magus of the Inferior would be more appropriate.

[Vegeta2711]

So you're saying decks may have to play creature removal now? Decks actually adapting to shit? How terrible.  :lol:

Though to be fair, the main reason the Jar decks were so broken was because they had so many cards that said 'make 3 mana' and you never actually needed colored mana to get the combo started.

Saying this however, it's a very strong ability and it wouldn't suprise me if it was found to be very abusive. I just think the leap to 'auto-restrict' is a bit much.

[Dxfiler]

This is definitely the most overhyped card I've seen so far from the set.  More powerful than all the other previews thus far?  Yes.  So much more poweful he's clearly going to be restricted?  Highly doubtful. 

While I'm shocked he's not legendary, he's still a creature.  If goblin welder is still unrestricted, so too will this card be.  He's a much easier drain target than welder.  You can't just sneak this guy out there.  Yes, you can whoop him out off a ritual and that will randomly steal games, but I don't think it will be enough to matter.  He seems primarily fine as a random one of in combo, then additional ones can and will probably be sided in against fish.  Seems a hell of alot more threatening than Xantid Swarm post board.  Still, I cant't get past the 3UU that more often than not will result in a hardcast.  I wouldn't be surprised if drain decks came back in full force because of this card.  This has to be the biggest drain target since mindslaver.  Again, the big difference there, as with Jar, was the fact that slaver could be snuck out through tinker or welder.  This guy on the other hand...I just don't forsee alot of sneaking this guy out through alternative methods.  Discard to thirst/bazzar only to shallow grave (or corpse dance? :p) it back doesn't seem to be anywhere near the power level of what decks have been doing with Memory Jar.

So, in my eyes, Magus is good... possibly even really good.  Really good does not = broken 

- Dave Feinstein

[Liam-K]

The key point is he doesn't combo with himself.  You can't chain through them like draw7.dec wants to do, so building a deck around him without concordant crossroads is not going to fit the long template well.  As a one of, one more mana gives you time spiral right now, and that untaps some land.

I'm not impressed.

[The Witch-King]

Maybe some deck with Bazaar and Anger might be viable, that way you can chain them together, even with animates. Just a random idea, but it might be good. It's still an insanely broken effect, but certainly it ain't as good as Jar.. I think it will be broken as a four-off though. Only time will tell i guess

EDIT: I didn't find anything on the internet confirming this (and others) are real, only that they were rumours, which might or might not be true. Something I missed?

[dicemanx]

Eh, I'm not too excited. Jar is good because you can cheat the cost with Tinker or Welder in addition to being able to hard-cast it. This guy will be more difficult to hard cast with the colorless/black acceleration - getting UU and 3 additional mana will be no small feat. It will be possibly a very good card that might spawn a new archetype, but I'd reserve the speculation of restriction for the time being.

[Komatteru]

Ok, enough with the Welder.  How many decks that abuse Jar actually play Welder as well?  Jar is in and out of Slaver (usually out, although it's somewhat re-appeared recently), and no Long variant has ever played Welder.  Jar hasn't seen play in Stax since 2004, and Workshop aggro doesn't really exist.  That makes the only deck that actaully sought to abuse Jar and Welder together Belcher.

The question is this: is Jar good because of the effect it provides, or because it has bonuses like being Weldable or able to be fetched with Tinker?  The latter two don't make the Jar fantastic, they make the cards in question fantastic (and just add bonuses to Jar).  Now, the mana cost might be somewhat prohibitive, but whoever said that tossing Magus here into any old existing combo deck was the thing to do?

I reserve that Memory Jar is the best Draw7 ever printed because you can untap with the cards before your opponent ever gets a chance to see them, thus making sure you have the best opportunity to abuse them. In addition, if your hand is bad, and your opponent's is awesome, it won't come back to hurt you, as the cards are gone EOT.  This is what makes it superior to every other Draw7, in my opinion.

[dicemanx]

The question is this: is Jar good because of the effect it provides, or because it has bonuses like being Weldable or able to be fetched with Tinker?

You should add one more there: Jar's cc is colorless, so it's not so tough to hard-cast.

Jar is good for a number of reasons. Why do we have to isolate one?

[BreathWeapon]

The key point is he doesn't combo with himself.  You can't chain through them like draw7.dec wants to do, so building a deck around him without concordant crossroads is not going to fit the long template well.  As a one of, one more mana gives you time spiral right now, and that untaps some land.

I'm not impressed.

That doesn't matter; he may not combo with himself, but he does combo with every other card in your deck. As an unrestricted card, I could see Jar.dec being viable for those of us with out Grim Tutors. The only defensible argument has been 5cc vs 3UUcc, but all that really meens is that you are going to need Black Lotus, Lotus Petal, Mox Sapphire, Chrome Mox, Mox Jet, Crop Rotation, sufficient colorless acceleration and land or Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor or Imperial Seal for Black Lotus.

This demands more of a TPS esq deck tho', it's not fit for Long. Nevertheless, this card doesn't scare me even remotely as much as Grim Tutor scares me, so saying it should be restricted is certainly more absurd than the arguments to restrict Grim Tutor; I say give the card its moment in the sun.

@DiceManX, because whether or not this card has synergy with Goblin Welder is topical to a conversation regarding whether or not this can be used in combo, which was the explicit premise of JDizzle's argument.

[Evenpence]

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Creatures
4 Magus of the Jar

Enchantments
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
1 Chain Of Vapor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Force Of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Grim Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mind's Desire
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Basic Lands
1 Island
1 Swamp

Lands
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea

Legendary Lands
1 Tolarian Academy

------------------------------------------------------------

Boy, that was hard to break.

This deck is insane.  Just take Mastrino's T8 Pitch Long deck, take out the Windfall and Misdirections for Magus as a starting point.  Original Grimlong only played 4 Duresses (so 4 Forces is enough for me), and with more threats (4 more Magus), this deck is insane.  It could use a little help in the manabase department - perhaps going down on a Magus and up on a Cabal Rit or steady source of mana (land) is correct.

I've been doing some testing.  This card is stupid busted and will CERTAINLY be restricted.  I have no idea how you guys can say it won't when you've played this deck.  It's RETARDED busted.

[Whatever Works]

You think your list is good evenpence... you have no idea how broken the card really is w/the right cards. I personally also think you just made a deck that can already play "clunky" at times even less consistent, but thats another story.

The title that best fits that we have come up with was 8 Jar.dec

And no... the deck doesnt pass the turn... I dont want to say to much b/c I like the deck to much to get it restricted by blowing the lid off not that hard to find tech/synergy.

[Vegeta2711]

I can only hope everybody who puts this into decks keeps thinking they'll play it consistently on turn 2 with mana base that only support UU about 35-40% of the time depending on the exact land composition. Oh and this is before taking into account the limited colored amount necessary for other cards (Like I don't know... Rituals maybe?) they can produce each turn without Chromatic Sphere. 

EDIT:

And no... the deck doesnt pass the turn...

Concordant Crossroads.dec! YAUS! WINNAR!

[Whatever Works]

I can only hope everybody who puts this into decks keeps thinking they'll play it consistently on turn 2 with mana base that only support UU about 35-40% of the time depending on the exact land composition. Oh and this is before taking into account the limited colored amount necessary for other cards (Like I don't know... Rituals maybe?) they can produce each turn without Chromatic Sphere. 

EDIT:

And no... the deck doesnt pass the turn...

Concordant Crossroads.dec! YAUS! WINNAR!

lol thats pretty funny actually. However, incorrect =p

[nataz]

combo oath ftw, uhh...with anger, AND a mountain!

[BreathWeapon]

Using Magus of the Jar with Grim Tutor is a mistake because the two cards have little if no synergy with each other, and you don't want to be using Cabal Ritual over Chrome Mox and land. I don't think you will win a single game against a MDGifts player, you need 4 Force of Will and 4 Duress if you want to even stand a chance.

You can't just port Long or Pitch Long or even TPS into a Jar.dec, you have to realize that you are aiming for a turn 3 or turn 4 kill, and you will have time to Brainstorm, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, Demonic Consultation, Mystical Tutor or Personal Tutor and Duress before you try to go off. You want to be able to take advantage of this as much as possible, so about 15 land and a full set of Duress is mandatory.

This seems to be about the best base I can come up with

14 Lands (8 Blue Fetch, 2 Underground Sea, 2 Island, 1 Swamp, 1 Tolarian Academy)
12 Artifact Accelerants (Usual suspects plus Chrome Mox)
1 Time Walk

4 Dark Ritual

4 Force of Will
4 Duress

1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Magus of the Jar
1 Memory Jar

1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Windfall

1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor

4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall

You may need 2 Tendrils with 6 Jars, which is fine because you wont lose games to MD Hide/Seek, SB Extract and you can use Demonic Consultation. As it stands I just take the mulligan if I have a Jar and a Tendrils in hand, because I just can't find the space for two extra cards. Mind's Desire sucks with out Grim Tutors or Wishes, turning over a Magus of the Jar is so "bleh"

I really don't think this thing is broken, atleast no more so than Gifts Ungiven is. Your only a turn faster than Gifts and you have less disruption, and about the most broken thing you can do is Dark Ritual into Necropotence turn one, which isn't as bad as a Tinker into Darksteel Colossus turn one.

You also get mauled by those Fish players that feel like they need to play with 4 Swords to Plowshares

I seriously couldn't see any one playing a deck like this over Gifts Ungiven, it may be good as a singleton to increase threat density tho'.