Time Spiral's First Restricted Card

[Whatever Works]

Another thing to remember is that you are handing an opponent several new full hands of cards. I could easily see a control deck drawing into 2+ counters during your combo. At least with Dragon, the opponent doesn't draw extra cards until they've lost.

Jury's still out on this card though.

Your opponent gets to draw 7 new cards with memory jar too, and that never seems to matter all that much.

@ Bad Wolf - I have no idea what your talking about by "losing to bad decks" . If this card hits play and you draw 7 cards vs. a bad deck what are they going to do to stop you??? Lightbolt, lightningbolt, fireblast? I am sorry, but dont dont really see that happening.

This card will be restricted, and then it will become a 1 of copy in perhaps dragon, but still kinda unlikely b/c this card cant be abused as a 1 of really.

Kyle L

[jcb193]

This thread is about the restriction of Mangus.  Has anyone thought about how reluctant Wizards is to restrict creatures?  We've gone down this road with Welder and Psychotog. 

Are there any enablers (Shallow Grave, Dark Ritual, Animate, etc) that might get hit instead, if Mangus is as powerful as some people are saying?

T1 shakedown!

[zeus-online]

Neither welder nor psychatog have ever needed restriction. So i don't get your point?

/Zeus

[cssamerican]

Neither welder nor psychatog have ever needed restriction. So i don't get your point?

/Zeus

People believed they did in the past. That is his point.

[jcb193]

There were dozens of calls for restrictions of those guys, especially Tog 2003-2004.  I don't care whether or not it was warranted, I am asking that if Mangus is powerful, could we see corrateral damage?

[Moxlotus]

Ravager and Disciple of the Vault got banned in Type 2 and Block and last time I checked they were creatures.

Don't forget, Ali from Cairo was restricted at one point.

[BreathWeapon]

I don't see the need for pre-emptive restriction, this card is no where near unrestricted Mind's Desire. It's a combo deck that uses the graveyard, just SB in Leyline of the Void and make them search for Wipe Out. I really think you guys are being a bunch of nancies, Fish can already handle this deck between Force of Will, Duress, Null Rod, Stifle and Meddling Mage/True Believer MD and Leyline of the Void SB and any Swords to Plowshares MD just makes things worse.

If this deck does break out and become popular, I think people will just use Null Rod instead of or in addition to Kataki, War's Wage and SB Leyline of the Void. Stifle is already popular, and a total beating on your Magus of the Jar, so you shouldn't be afraid of this deck if Fish is in your metagame.

[Whatever Works]

I don't see the need for pre-emptive restriction, this card is no where near unrestricted Mind's Desire. It's a combo deck that uses the graveyard, just SB in Leyline of the Void and make them search for Wipe Out. I really think you guys are being a bunch of nancies, Fish can already handle this deck between Force of Will, Duress, Null Rod, Stifle and Meddling Mage/True Believer MD and Leyline of the Void SB and any Swords to Plowshares MD just makes things worse.

If this deck does break out and become popular, I think people will just use Null Rod instead of or in addition to Kataki, War's Wage and SB Leyline of the Void. Stifle is already popular, and a total beating on your Magus of the Jar, so you shouldn't be afraid of this deck if Fish is in your metagame.

The deck would likely slaughter fish #1.... #2... You cant hope that a nich budget deck like fish that almost NEVER wins ANYTHING big... EVER... is going to be the deck that protects the format from a deck w/8tinkers in essense. Just not going to work...

Leyline is also extremely overrated in these kinda matchups. Im sure most combo decks would be happy to play vs. control that mulliganed is now running a hand of 5 b/c of leyline.

Kyle L.

[Liam-K]

Your opponent gets to draw 7 new cards with memory jar too, and that never seems to matter all that much.

That is unfair.  If you jar once and have a 15% chance of being unable to go off through the FoW your opponent draws, you have a 85% chance of winning this turn (assuming you have 0% chance to fizzle but that's beside the point really).

If you jar 4 times and have a 15% chance of being unable to go off through FoW each time, you have about 52% chance of winning this turn.  52 < 85.  Magus.dec is going to jar more than once a turn.

[Hi-Val]

Your opponent gets to draw 7 new cards with memory jar too, and that never seems to matter all that much.

I don't know what opponents you play against, but mine play counters. Jar can often get hamstringed by the opponent drawing, just like any other draw-7. That's why they're risky.

In summation, what Liam-K said.

[Moxlotus]

Your opponent gets to draw 7 new cards with memory jar too, and that never seems to matter all that much.

That is unfair.  If you jar once and have a 15% chance of being unable to go off through the FoW your opponent draws, you have a 85% chance of winning this turn (assuming you have 0% chance to fizzle but that's beside the point really).

If you jar 4 times and have a 15% chance of being unable to go off through FoW each time, you have about 52% chance of winning this turn.  52 < 85.  Magus.dec is going to jar more than once a turn.

If you draw 28 cards I would hope you can play through one counter.

I mean, think of your logic.  The more draw7s you play the less chance you have to win.  If that was true, then just activate Magus once.

[BreathWeapon]

I don't see the need for pre-emptive restriction, this card is no where near unrestricted Mind's Desire. It's a combo deck that uses the graveyard, just SB in Leyline of the Void and make them search for Wipe Out. I really think you guys are being a bunch of nancies, Fish can already handle this deck between Force of Will, Duress, Null Rod, Stifle and Meddling Mage/True Believer MD and Leyline of the Void SB and any Swords to Plowshares MD just makes things worse.

If this deck does break out and become popular, I think people will just use Null Rod instead of or in addition to Kataki, War's Wage and SB Leyline of the Void. Stifle is already popular, and a total beating on your Magus of the Jar, so you shouldn't be afraid of this deck if Fish is in your metagame.

The deck would likely slaughter fish #1.... #2... You cant hope that a nich budget deck like fish that almost NEVER wins ANYTHING big... EVER... is going to be the deck that protects the format from a deck w/8tinkers in essense. Just not going to work...

Leyline is also extremely overrated in these kinda matchups. Im sure most combo decks would be happy to play vs. control that mulliganed is now running a hand of 5 b/c of leyline.

Kyle L.

WTF?

Ever heard of SS? I heard that won some tournament or something. Who cares if Fish wont ever win a large tournament, it is the most commonly played deck in Vintage, if you can't get out of the first three rounds against a sea of Fish, it doesn't matter what the deck does in the Top 8.

Fish MAULS this deck, Jotun Grunt, Meddling Mage, True Believer are all serious problems, not to mention that Stifle iand Swords to Plowshares are hard counters. Leyline of the Void is an uncounterable ansers to your strategy, I don't buy that mulligan bull shit for one minute, you get it in your first hand around 40 percent of the time and in your first mulligan hand around 70 percent of the time, it's a serious bitch to deal with it.

I haven't seen anything that has convinced me that this is better than Long. It's slower, subject to more hate and relies more on D7's. I think the deck is definately viable, and quite possibly stronger against control, but it isn't doing anything that is format distorting,

If they pre-emptively restricted this I would be ashamed of Wizards for being such pussies. Oh no three months of possibly, maybe, not really brokenness in T1 ... the horror.

[Liam-K]

Your opponent gets to draw 7 new cards with memory jar too, and that never seems to matter all that much.

That is unfair.  If you jar once and have a 15% chance of being unable to go off through the FoW your opponent draws, you have a 85% chance of winning this turn (assuming you have 0% chance to fizzle but that's beside the point really).

If you jar 4 times and have a 15% chance of being unable to go off through FoW each time, you have about 52% chance of winning this turn.  52 < 85.  Magus.dec is going to jar more than once a turn.

If you draw 28 cards I would hope you can play through one counter.

I mean, think of your logic.  The more draw7s you play the less chance you have to win.  If that was true, then just activate Magus once.

My logic is the more cards your opponent sees the more chance they can stop you.  You can't tell me you enjoy going jar -> timetwister -> windfall with pitch long.

[Moxlotus]

not to mention that Stifle iand Swords to Plowshares are hard counters.

Will somebody explain to me how StP is a hard counter?  Can't you SG with buyback then activate without passing priority.

My logic is the more cards your opponent sees the more chance they can stop you.  You can't tell me you enjoy going jar -> timetwister -> windfall with pitch long.

Oh, definitely.  But the cards are still amazing enough that you still run them for a reason.

[BreathWeapon]

Because the deck has to get off its ass and actually hard cast Magus of the Jar every once and awhile, if your opponent drops a Leyline of the Void you are cut off from cheating him into play, and that makes all of his Swords to Plowshares hard counters.

[Vegeta2711]

You cant hope that a nich budget deck like fish that almost NEVER wins ANYTHING big... EVER... is going to be the deck that protects the format from a deck w/8tinkers in essense. Just not going to work...

You do realize a Fish deck nearly won PT Rome which was Academy and High Tide.format right? Fish is pretty much one of the supreme anti-combo strategies of all time. It's base blue and can easily run any kind of hate it needs to beat a specfic deck.

So it changes to running 4 Stifle and some amount of grave hate, you seriously don't think it could adapt to this deck if it was a big deal?

[Whatever Works]

Because the deck has to get off its ass and actually hard cast Magus of the Jar every once and awhile, if your opponent drops a Leyline of the Void you are cut off from cheating him into play, and that makes all of his Swords to Plowshares hard counters.

ummm... its called playing a bounce spell...

WTF you mean that fish "mauls" this deck. what testing are you talking about. Everything is speculation & theory until you test it.

I wont make redicules claims that a deck with 4 magus always beats fish, but I will make the claim that fish isn't tier 1 & hasn't been for a long time.

SS is not very good. I dont care what you say... It just isn't... Its like a bad stax deck that tries to flip an errayo & then stalls until it can get a confidant in play... Generally with a small hand that holds alot of cards that simply cant handle a tinker, or a real threat. It was a good deck for a few months, but its just not that good right now. So saying that this deck alters the metagame to not run a deck w/8 jar effects is redicules.

By those claims dragon should be completely 100% unplayable.

Also if you jar in theory you should generally win, and if you dont win that turn unless your playing vs. CS who honestly cares??? Generally only the Jar player can take real advantage of the jar, and if not win the same turn as jar set things up well enough to win the following turn. Regardless of % the deck can theoretically win on the same turn it doesn't matter, because it still is a freaking high percentage.

Saying graveyard hate makes this card not worthy of restriction is like saying that yawgs will isnt good b/c of graveyard hate...ummm...what?

Kyle L.

[Evenpence]

but I will make the claim that fish isn't tier 1 & hasn't been for a long time.

You need to read tournament results more often if you sincerely believe this.

Saying graveyard hate makes this card not worthy of restriction is like saying that yawgs will isnt good b/c of graveyard hate...ummm...what?

This is an extremely flawed analogy.

Ichorid is bad because Tormod's Crypt exists.  It's a deck which uses the graveyard as it's primary (and virtually only) resource.

Substituting Ichorid in for your sentence, we get something that looks like this:

Saying graveyard hate makes Ichorid not good is like saying that yawgs will isnt good b/c of graveyard hate...ummm...what?

The two have nothing to do with each other.  Likewise, Magus of the Jar and Yawgmoth's Will don't have anything in common.  You're trying to abuse the graveyard as a resource, something which decks which utilize Yawgmoth's Will do not need to do, as they also play Tinker-Colossus, or can just win without it.

I'm not trying to be a dick or anything here, but you're wrong, and you need to stop using faulty logic to try to prove your points.

[Dxfiler]

Kyle, your fish comments are scaring me.  You're the guy who once put spellsnare in his pitchlong board because you feared fish so much.  (In fairness, you did beat me with it) :p

To say that fish is just a niche deck that rarely sees tourney success is just plain wrong, as already pointed out by people. 

As far as Fish Vs. yet to be played in a tourney Magus.dec, who the hell knows what deck wins there?  It's asinine to argue which deck has the matchup advantage when the centerpiece of one of the decks is a card in an unresleased set that WE DON'T EVEN HAVE A FULL SPOILER OF.  What if Magus.dec gets some other big card in Time Sprial?  Or you could look at it the other way, and Fish gets some random card that could combat Magus. 

The point is, debate the card itself... not the theoretical matchups that the untested, unplayed and unknown optimal version that the deck could have.  It's just too early to debate that at this time.

- Dave Feinstein

[BreathWeapon]

Building Magus.dec is rather academic, people may argue over some of the card choices, but the cards that have synergy with Magus and the archetype are obvious. If Time Spiral has more than Magus of the Jar and Wipe Out to offer combo, and Wipe Out is sick, sick sick, god help us all, because I honestly don't believe they can offer combo better cards at this point with out truely going over the line to do it.

As far as Fish is concerned, Fish is going to PWN combo because that is what Fish is designed to do, I feel more than comfortable playing EBA against Magus.dec or Long or whatever else you want to throw at it.

This doesn't need to be pre-emptively restricted, it isn't Mind's Desire, for the love of god.

[Whatever Works]

Just to point out... chrome mox was also restricted before it became legal to my knowledge?

About Fish I was reffering more to traditional fish lists. I don't consider SS to be fish as much as a deck that plays like a stax varient.

@ Evenpence - Your arguement using Ichorid doesnt apply in the same way, because ichorid dedicates like 12 cards postboard to do nothing more then protect there graveyard vs. crypt. (null rod, chalice, pithing needle, etc.)

@ Feinstein - Good points. Trying to judge the strengt of a card this early & implementing it in decks is a bit much... Regardless it will be a dominant format defining card if unrestricted. Not so much if restricted.

Me running spell snare to beat fish (& MD gifts) in pitch long was just plain smart. Just because i dont think fish is a good or playable deck doesn't mean I wont spend the time to prepare for it if I feel it could potentially beat me.

Kyle L.

[cssamerican]

This thing is a creature that cost .
It is stopped by Pithing Needle, Damping Matrix, Stifle, and all creature removal. A deck based on this card would likely be hampered by Chalice of the Void, Null Rod, and Sphere of Resistance. If you tried cheating the card into play through reanimate effects you deck will be vulnerable to graveyard hate and be filled with a ton of chaff (Animate effects and discard outlets) which isn't exactly conducive to a storm deck's success. Dragon gets away with it because it wins or draw on the spot without being dependent on hoping for good draws and its combo isn't directly disrupted by cards like Pithing Needle.

Now how exactly is this going to be an unanswerable problem? Hell, I am curious if it is even going to playable in a deck that actually has a chance of winning a large tournament much less restricted.

[49 Cents]

Just to point out... chrome mox was also restricted before it became legal to my knowledge?

&

Me running spell snare to beat fish (& MD gifts) in pitch long was just plain smart.

Kyle L.

No, Chrome Mox was legal for like 1-2 months. And how does spell snare beats MD Gifts? Isn't REB plain better, and even that doesn't 'beat' MDGifts..

Dragon gets away with it because it wins or draw on the spot without being dependent on hoping for good draws and its combo isn't disrupted by cards like Pithing Needle.

Needle Bazaar isn't problematic?

[Moxlotus]

No, Chrome Mox was legal for like 1-2 months. And how does spell snare beats MD Gifts? Isn't REB plain better, and even that doesn't 'beat' MDGifts..

Completely off topic, but REB doesn't work well with a U/B manabase that Pitch Long plays.

[cssamerican]

Dragon gets away with it because it wins or draw on the spot without being dependent on hoping for good draws and its combo isn't disrupted by cards like Pithing Needle.

Needle Bazaar isn't problematic?

Not really because you have other cards that can fill the same role, Read the Ruin, Intuiton, and Cunning Wish are example of this. Needling Bazaar is an inconvience but it doesn't shut down the deck it stops one cog of the deck. Needling Magus would make any deck focused on that one card bend over and cry; therefore, I don't see any deck being able to be built that is focused soley on it (With the idea of cheating it into play). If your not cheating it into play it isn't that threating , it is just an expensive, slow, draw seven.

[Whatever Works]

No, Chrome Mox was legal for like 1-2 months. And how does spell snare beats MD Gifts? Isn't REB plain better, and even that doesn't 'beat' MDGifts..

Completely off topic, but REB doesn't work well with a U/B manabase that Pitch Long plays.

Exactly. Also let me make it a bit more clear that spell snare doesnt beat mdgifts, but it is a very usful card in the matchup, b/c it catches people very very off guard, and is still a fairly effective card vs. about 12ish cards in MDgifts. Does it win the matchup. That is so easy to discover that it suggests conspicuousness or little need for perspicacity in the observer. not... but its useful.

Kyle