[Premium Article] Tweaking (and further exploring) Meandeck Gifts

[hitman]

Gandalf is right.  I don't think it's necessary but the options it leaves you is worth it to me.  I play against a lot of Stax and getting the necessary amount of black mana is hard sometimes.  The addition of Dark Ritual has sped the kill about 1 turn for me.  I'm admittedly not the best with the deck, but this has worked really well for me so far.  It also makes D.T. a lot easier to play twice off your Yawg Will. 

[desolutionist]

Gandalf is right.  I don't think it's necessary but the options it leaves you is worth it to me.  I play against a lot of Stax and getting the necessary amount of black mana is hard sometimes.  The addition of Dark Ritual has sped the kill about 1 turn for me.  I'm admittedly not the best with the deck, but this has worked really well for me so far.  It also makes D.T. a lot easier to play twice off your Yawg Will. 

Dark Ritual improves your ability to go broken with Tendrils against Stax, but it is easier and more efficient to win with Colossus.  Winning with Tendrils against Stax is tedious and often not possible because of the magnitude of mana denial and spell resistance.  On the contrary, an early Tinker normally always ends the game. (Or at least gives you the best chance at ending the game)

[Implacable]

I'm not sure that I agree, Desolutionist.  While it's true that an early Tinker can end the game against Stax, Goblin Welder puts the kibosh on that win condition.  Given that you have infinite ways to find your Rebuild, I prefer to simply wait it out and go off with an EOT Rebuild + oodles of artifacts. 

[desolutionist]

I'm not sure that I agree, Desolutionist.  While it's true that an early Tinker can end the game against Stax, Goblin Welder puts the kibosh on that win condition.  Given that you have infinite ways to find your Rebuild, I prefer to simply wait it out and go off with an EOT Rebuild + oodles of artifacts. 

The only place that Stax wants a Goblin Welder is in play.  If it is not in play, then that is a good indication that they do not have one or do not have the appropriate mana to play one.  Once Colossus is in play, the only threats (Or answers rather) that need to be countered are outnumbered by your FoWs and Mana Drains. 

Now obviously certain circumstances would nullify this strategy, but it is the best path to victory.

[Implacable]

I'm not sure that I agree, Desolutionist.  While it's true that an early Tinker can end the game against Stax, Goblin Welder puts the kibosh on that win condition.  Given that you have infinite ways to find your Rebuild, I prefer to simply wait it out and go off with an EOT Rebuild + oodles of artifacts. 

The only place that Stax wants a Goblin Welder is in play.  If it is not in play, then that is a good indication that they do not have one or do not have the appropriate mana to play one.  Once Colossus is in play, the only threats (Or answers rather) that need to be countered are outnumbered by your FoWs and Mana Drains. 

Now obviously certain circumstances would nullify this strategy, but it is the best path to victory.

Now, that's certainly true, but my point is that a 1st-3rd turn Goblin Welder definitely can resolve in this matchup, particularly if they successfully bait with a lock piece before playing it.  I therefore prefer to focus on winning with Tendrils in this matchup, because I feel uncomfortable aiming for a win that is so easily nullified.  I only use Tinker when the situation is perfect (i.e. 1st-2nd turn with Force backup), or if we somehow get to topdeck mode.

[desolutionist]

Now, that's certainly true, but my point is that a 1st-3rd turn Goblin Welder definitely can resolve in this matchup, particularly if they successfully bait with a lock piece before playing it.  I therefore prefer to focus on winning with Tendrils in this matchup, because I feel uncomfortable aiming for a win that is so easily nullified.  I only use Tinker when the situation is perfect (i.e. 1st-2nd turn with Force backup), or if we somehow get to topdeck mode.

True, Tinker is not ideal in a number of situations but my claim is that Darksteel Colossus is a much more reasonable goal to invest in assuming that Goblin Welder is only in their opening hand 40% of the time.  The longer the game is drawn out the more Stax is capable of gaining control of the game.

In relation to the original subject, it is better to improve a mathematically probable path to victory rather than one that is rooted in optimism.

[yespuhyren]

As a Stax player, I fear the Iron man MUCH MUCH MUCH more than someone going for the tendrils kill.  It might be because I do play a lot of answers against tendrils though.

[hitman]

The addition of Dark Ritual isn't because it's an auto win or anything.  I think it just gives me more outs.  I can play a Gifts off a Ritual and make a ridiculous pile and win next turn reusing stuff I played earlier.  My thinking is more along the lines of what gives me the better chance of winning quickly.  I cut V.Tutor because it costs me a card in hand, a draw, and black mana (which can be hard to get sometimes).  Dark Ritual nets me 2 mana to play early brokeness, is easy to reuse off a Yawg Will, and speeds up my plays because it nets me mana to play cards in the first place.  This is just my thinking behind the switch.  Desolutionist - I'm not knocking DSC.  I think i agree with you.  I'm just wondering what your success rate has been going that route.  It sounds like you prefer DSC in the Stax matchup.  I usually just look at my cards and see which is more likely to get me a protected, fast win.  Just looking for tips to win more.  Thanks.

[desolutionist]

The addition of Dark Ritual isn't because it's an auto win or anything.  I think it just gives me more outs.  I can play a Gifts off a Ritual and make a ridiculous pile and win next turn reusing stuff I played earlier.  My thinking is more along the lines of what gives me the better chance of winning quickly.  I cut V.Tutor because it costs me a card in hand, a draw, and black mana (which can be hard to get sometimes).  Dark Ritual nets me 2 mana to play early brokeness, is easy to reuse off a Yawg Will, and speeds up my plays because it nets me mana to play cards in the first place.  This is just my thinking behind the switch. 

If Vampiric Tutor costs you a draw, than it certainly doesn't cost you a card in hand.  The inverse is also true;  If Vampiric Tutor costs you a card in hand, then it certainly doesn't eliminate your next draw.  From either perspective, it only nets (-1).

Ironically, the logic used to degrade Vamp can also be used for Dark Ritual.

1.  It costs a B.
2.  It is card disadvantage.

Desolutionist - I'm not knocking DSC.  I think i agree with you.  I'm just wondering what your success rate has been going that route.  It sounds like you prefer DSC in the Stax matchup.  I usually just look at my cards and see which is more likely to get me a protected, fast win.  Just looking for tips to win more.  Thanks.

It is an unfavorable match; neither of the win conditions are anywhere near ideal.  Colossus will often be more successful than Tendrils.  (Not to say that you cannot win with Tendrils... tutoring for Tinker merely takes priority over establishing an ideal storm environment) 

[Evenpence]

I have been Tendrilsed out only once from Gifts in a tournament (that is, the only GAME ever), and that was this past Saturday (I was running 4x Duplicant, so I significantly weakened my defenses to Tendrils).

I have lost a few matches to Gifts, and it has always been by Colossus.  It is infinitely better in the Stax matchup.  I thought this was old news.

[Zarathustra]

I've beaten you with Gifts by Tendrilsing you out.  It's not all that hard with Rebuild.  However, since I'm now playing Hurkyl's, the best choice is probably a DSC.

[Evenpence]

I've beaten you with Gifts by Tendrilsing you out.  It's not all that hard with Rebuild.  However, since I'm now playing Hurkyl's, the best choice is probably a DSC.

A)  No you haven't.
B)  I said in a tournament.

[nataz]

One of the best things about darkrit MD in gifts is that it turns your gifts into super graveyard stocking cantrips when you need that early game edge.

[Zarathustra]

A)  No you haven't.
B)  I said in a tournament.

I do, in fact remember Tendrilsing you out before in play testing.  Does it really have to be a tourney game to matter?  Honestly, if the Gifts player cannot find a Tinker early enough, then finding a Rebuild is not hard at all.  Rebuild makes it so easy to Tendrils a Stax player.

-DShell 

[Implacable]

While I agree to an extent with people who are arguing for Colossus, it must also be recognized that Rebuild really does make it easy to go off against Stax.  However, Stax is obviously divided into archtypes.  The Tendrils combo loses some of its potency against Uba, because Uba puts down more nasty lockpieces and also puts them down faster.  5C Stax, on the other hand, focuses on playing broken cards, which is fine with Gifts, and thus makes it a better matchup for us to use Tendrils.  The problem with playing against decks like Stax is your Misdirections and your card disadvantage tutors; you need to have every card count when you're playing a war of attrition.

[desolutionist]

While I agree to an extent with people who are arguing for Colossus, it must also be recognized that Rebuild really does make it easy to go off against Stax.

easier*

That is why Rebuild is superior to Hurkyl's Recall.  (Beside the points that I presented on the first page)

The problem with playing against decks like Stax is your Misdirections and your card disadvantage tutors; you need to have every card count when you're playing a war of attrition.

Mystical Tutor and Vampiric Tutor are extremely useful against Stax.  Even so when you are pursuing the Tendrils win.  Resolving Gifts is often difficult and the tutors fetch key combo pieces or Tinker.

Also, the Stax - Gifts matchup is not a "war of attrition".  Gifts will either get lucky or lose.

[keratinx]

As a Stax player, I fear the Iron man MUCH MUCH MUCH more than someone going for the tendrils kill.  It might be because I do play a lot of answers against tendrils though.

I agree here. I've been testing the new MDG with the Tendrils main while keeping Rebuild in. Like what Smmenen said with Tendrils main, there are many situations you can just go off compared to the previous version of MDG which had the Burning Wish main. There were many times I was tempted to go off that I actually mis-cued and lost because I lacked that 1 Mana.

Anyway, I still feel that the Tinker-DSC plan still works for me against the Stax match-up. I don't normally have a lot of mana in play and before Stax can hard lock me, its better to win via DSC as the solution. Tinker-DSC with FoW means game most of the time.

[Implacable]

I will say that the fact that I run 1 maindeck Ritual does help me go off more quickly and more explosively with the Tendrils kill.  Previous builds of Meandeck Gifts were more suited for the Colossus win, regardless of matchup, but I feel that, because the Tendrils win is less vulnerable, it should be pursued in most matches, and my maindeck (MD Tendrils, Ritual, no Fact) reflects that.  I completely disagree with the assertation that Gifts will either get lucky or lose in the Stax matchup.  Intensive testing of any deck versus any other, regardless of the two deck types, will always add a degree of skill to a matchup that will make it a more even one.  Postboard, I find that Gifts pursues a strategy close to that of PitchLong: wait around, draw some cards, Rebuild/Hurkyl's EOT, and win.

[yespuhyren]

I do, in fact remember Tendrilsing you out before in play testing.  Does it really have to be a tourney game to matter?  Honestly, if the Gifts player cannot find a Tinker early enough, then finding a Rebuild is not hard at all.  Rebuild makes it so easy to Tendrils a Stax player.

Well, since I started playing Null Brooches, I have feared the EOT mass removal a LOT less than I used to.  With that out, and other lock pieces, I'm sitting pretty comfortable.  I can pretty confidently say that Colby has adopted the use of the brooch as well and has probably had similar results as I have.

[keratinx]

I feel that MDG proper role in most match-ups would be Control. Imo, the deck primary plan is to play control and build up its mana to 6-7 and win with the Eot Gifts Ungiven play. Since many Fish players are adapt in playing around Drains, MDG players should not be too dependent on their drain mana. I think with ToA mainboarded makes the deck extremely fast, which is plus point against combo decks like Grim or Pitch Long. Once you know that they have no counter-magic or bombs left to play, MDG switches role into beatdown/combo. In most situations, 1 Gift will end the game or give u a better board position. I'd say I Gift pile consisting of: Brainstorm, Merchant Scroll, Mana Drain, Force of Will is quite frustrating for the combo player.

How does Dark Ritual fair for some of the players who are mainboarding it now? What cards come out maindeck to allow Dark Ritual to be played? I think right now with the printing of Wipe Away, Trickbind and Children of Korlis, the metagame will shift. Some will find it desirable or undesireable. How would one build his/her SB in lieu of these new cards, not forgetting Jotun Grunt.

[hitman]

Dark Ritual makes Gifts piles ridiculously easy and very fast to win with. I think it acts a lot like Mana Crypt use to in my piles.  If I've already resolved a Ritual, I can just gifts for Crypt in its place.  You can use it to bust out a fast Gifts and win next turn.  If you have Ritual in your hand, you can cast D. Tutor twice on a Yawg Will turn.  So far i really like it a lot.  Desolutionist convinced me V. Tutor should stay in.  He was right. I put it in place of Fact or Fiction. 

I'm not really worried about Wipe Away/Trickbind in any deck except Slaver with Merchant Scrolls.  I play 3 Duress in my sideboard anyway.  Children of Corlis and True Believer is the best answer to Tendrils for Fish (because of Aether Vial).  Swords and any bounce or Stormscape Apprentice is enough to handle DSC.  I think the best way to beat their hate is to bounce their Vial in response to them activating it.  Chalice/Vial Fish is the best in my opinion.  It's a hard matchup.  Anyone that's played it knows they have to counter the Vial.  I read about a card called Lightning Dart for creatures.  It looks really good.  I'm probably switching Massacre to Lightning Dart because i can tutor it with Scroll and it kills Grunt. 

I just looked up Lightning Dart and it's red.  Nevermind about Scrolling for it.  It's still good though.

[AbouTreeFiddy]

you can always merchant scroll for PSIONIC BLAST.   OMG   it kills jotun grunt!

[keratinx]

you can always merchant scroll for PSIONIC BLAST.   OMG   it kills jotun grunt!

I've been using Seasingers against the U/W Chalice/Vial Fish match-up during testing and it is so good. I'm currently playing with 2 Seasingers but I'll be increasing them to 3.

@hitman
I haven't really tried Dark Ritual in my deck though but I've heard that it makes the deck even faster. Have you been in any situation that required you to win the following turn? Hence, the inclusion of Dark Ritual? For me, there weren't any problems playing the control role by tutoring for counter magic and just wait till you have 7 mana and just win.
Also, with cards like Trickbind and Wipe Away, how would one's SB tend to differ? I feel that REB/Pryos are important as you need to stop their business spells more than cards like Trickbind/Wipe Away, because these are the cards that will help them establish supriority.
Will Duress be worth the slot that REB/Pyro takes up?
Anyway, here is my current SB that I've been tesing with.

2 Pithing Needle
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Rushing River/Chain of Vapor
2 Massacre
2 Seasinger
1 Open Slot - Most probably a Seasinger or Pithing Needle

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I think the best way to beat their hate is to bounce their Vial in response to them activating it

Umm... I'm not sure how this does anything.  The ability of the Vial still goes on the stack and will use the last known information of the number of counters on the Vial if the Vial is out of play when the abilty resolves, so they will still be able to put the creature into play.

The reason why Fish can pose a problem for this deck isn't necessarily the hate against the win conditions, but rather the resource denail.  If Gifts can develope a certain threshold or critical mass of cards and mana, it will win.  Fish's goal is to win the game before that point is reached.  This is why Null Rod fish builds are scarier than Vial builds to me; by attacking your artifact mana sources in combination with daze/stifle/waste, etc, it can make it difficult for you to develop the necessary resources to go broken and win, while the Colossus hate stops you from taking the easy/mindless route of blindly Tinkering up Colossus for the win as you might be able to do against Goblins, for instance.  Vial just allows for some cute tricks.  Would I Drain either one?  Sure, because the Drain is pretty much useless after the Vial resolves anyways, but I'm much less worried about a Vial resolving than the Rod.

I haven't really tried Dark Ritual in my deck though but I've heard that it makes the deck even faster. Have you been in any situation that required you to win the following turn? Hence, the inclusion of Dark Ritual? For me, there weren't any problems playing the control role by tutoring for counter magic and just wait till you have 7 mana and just win.

Read my earlier post on page 2 for a discussion/examples of times when Ritual is actually needed.

Seasinger is a good idea, because unlike Old Man, it can steal Grunt (although it doesn't block well or dodge massacre/pyroclasm).  It's also cheaper than Old Man .

[keratinx]

@Gandalf the white:

I've been actually thinking of upping the number of Seasingers to 3 in view of the U/W Fish and BirdSh*t match-up. Like you said, fish attacks the Gifts player's mana resource with cards like Stifle/Wasteland/Null Rod or disrupts the play with tempo cards like Daze/MisD. Will you actually prefer Massacre or Pyroclasm knowing that the more popular Fish builds play with White nowadays? What cards will you board out against the Fish match-up assuming you're using a SB similar to mine. I will try not to board out business spells. With Seasinger boarded in, one might actually have to keep VT and DT main just to get them when needed.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

@Gandalf the white:

I've been actually thinking of upping the number of Seasingers to 3 in view of the U/W Fish and BirdSh*t match-up. Like you said, fish attacks the Gifts player's mana resource with cards like Stifle/Wasteland/Null Rod or disrupts the play with tempo cards like Daze/MisD. Will you actually prefer Massacre or Pyroclasm knowing that the more popular Fish builds play with White nowadays? What cards will you board out against the Fish match-up assuming you're using a SB similar to mine. I will try not to board out business spells. With Seasinger boarded in, one might actually have to keep VT and DT main just to get them when needed.

Most Fish builds do run white, in which case Massacre usually better than Pyroclasm.  I'm actually running a Pyroclasm in my sideboard, however, just becase I find that it's more versatile in general (can save you against Goblins or something too, even though the best way to win is usually to race them, this isn't always possible and a sweeper can buy you some time).  It can also kill Welders, Xantids, etc.

You probably want to board in all 4 Rebs, both Pithing Needles, and the Seasingers, and possibly artifact destruction if you are afraid of Rod (although your two maindeck bouncers+Scrolls might be just fine).  Now, it depends on if you're on the draw or the play (Drains are better on the play), but I find that Fish is designed to circumvent Fow and Drain so much that they are not as useful in the match up as other, cheaper hate cards, and you don't want to board out any business.  So you could board something like -4 Drain -4 Force -1 Vamp -1 Mystical (top of library tutors consume resources by giving you -1CA which can be troublesome against a deck like Fish) for +4Rebs, +2 Needles, +2 Seasingers, +2 Massacres.  10 cards is a lot and this might be overboarding (I'm not sure you need both Seasinger and Massacre), but Reb is great at protecting your spells and killing their dudes, and Needle on Wasteland helps to protect your mana base when you are fetching out all of the non-basics to cast your hate cards (Needle can also shut of Tormod's Crypt, Stormscape Apprentice, Waterfront Bouncer, etc).

 Keep in mind also that you've left in all of your business spells as well, so Fish has to deal with all of your hate as well as the main gameplan of Scroll/Gifts-->Craziness-->Go nuts.  Like I said, your goal is to develop enough resources to win.  With all of the removal Fish shouldn't be able to put any significant clock on you, thus allowing you to do your thing.

[keratinx]

@Gandalf,

That's a pretty neat sideboarding plan. However, I would want to keep the VT and MT in to find cards like Massacre or Seasinger. I never thought of ever boarding out 4 Fows and 4 Drains against U/W Fish though. I was actually planning on taking out 2 MisDs, 1 Rebuild, 1 MT and possibly ToA for 3 Seasingers and 2 Massacres. I can forsee 2 disadvantages with this boarding plan:

1. Having to fetch out Underground Sea means you're liable to Wastland. That may or may not be detrimental, as the game plan involves, like you said, bringing in hate cards (Seasingers, Massacres) and still playing with your business spells (Gifts Ungiven, Merchant Scroll).

2. The maindeck loses 4 blue cards which reduces the number of blue cards to pitch to FoW. As I still feel that MDG's role in proper against Fish should be control, losing the 2 MisDs will not be that bad as the deck gain other control cards (Seasinger, Massacre). Siding out MisDs reduces the number of pitch magic which I think is the right decision due to the number of blue cards that are being boarded out.

Another card that can be useful in the Fish match-up would be Rushing River for permanents like Null Rod. What are your views on this card? Another thing that can be noted is that since Seasingers can't evade Pyroclasm/Massacre, wouldn't it be better to have 1 Massacre and 1 Pyroclasm in the SB to add to the gift pile of lets say: Massacre, Seasinger, Pyroclasm, Tinker?

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

That's a pretty neat sideboarding plan. However, I would want to keep the VT and MT in to find cards like Massacre or Seasinger. I never thought of ever boarding out 4 Fows and 4 Drains against U/W Fish though. I was actually planning on taking out 2 MisDs, 1 Rebuild, 1 MT and possibly ToA for 3 Seasingers and 2 Massacres. I can forsee 2 disadvantages with this boarding plan:
Massacre, Seasinger, Pyroclasm, Tinker?

Oh, haha, I Forgot about misdirections since I don't run them in my build anymore.  They are probably worse than Fows most of the time against Fish, so I would take them out over Fow.  Maybe -3 Fow -3 Drain -2 Misd instead of the -4 Drain, -4 Fow, because this way you can Scroll for either one if necessary.

You can leave in the top of library tutors if you want, but IMO they're not really necessary when you maintain such a high density of business and answers post board (pretty much every card you draw is bad for the Fish player, because you are either drawing mana, removal, or business). 

I wouldn't side out TOA, though, since one of the best ways to kill Fish is with the Will+Tendrils plan (rather than Colossus, which they usually have plenty of hate for.  I've considered siding out Colossus against Fish, even, but couldn't bring myself to do it in case the Tendrils route ended up getting hit by hate (ex, Extract, Crypt, True Believer, Mage).  Even though Colossus isn't necessarily optimal, I feel more secure having 2 different possible win conditions against Fish, since both get taken out by different hate.)

I'd probably leave in Rebuild, because it bounces Null Rod even in multiples as well as upping storm so you can possibly use the Tendrils kill without Will

Rushing River is usually worse than Chain of Vapour, IMO just because of its cost.  The only times it's better than Chain or Rebuild is when you bounce both a troublesome creature and a Rod/Chalice (and if you are saccing lands you better be winning right away).  Since you have so much creature removal post-board anway, I'd just add in a Hurklys in addition to maindeck Rebuild and Chain if you are afraid of Rod.

[keratinx]

I'm actually quite suprised that you baorded out your counter magic for hate cards and REBs against Fish. How did that work out for you during tournament play? Was there any situation that you felt that the addtional counter magic of FoW and Drain were to be useful? I asking this because I feel that 4 REBs, on paper, seems very little to protect your own business (Gifts Ungiven, Merchant Scroll) and hate cards (Seasinger, Massacre, Pyroclasm).

[zeus-online]

Hmm how come you didn't keep the drains? Boarding fow's out is fine...but the drains are pretty good, even against fish.
Like draining a 2cc spell and then having about 5-6 mana on turn 3, thats good

/Zeus