[Deck Discussion] MUD

[WhiteWolf]

First the deck :

MUD

Beats - 3

3 Karn, Silver Golem

Disrupt - 30

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Winter Orb
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack

Draw - 5

4 Bottled Cloister
1 Memory Jar

Mana - 22

4 Mishra's Workshop
2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Metalworker

Sideboard - 15*

4 Defense Grid
4 Damping Matrix
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Orb of Dreams


* I know, these are 16 cards. More about that later.

Maindeck:

Karn: Turns the whole deck in an army. Eats Moxen. Blocks big creatures.

Rishadan Port: Taps basic lands, which Wasteland can’t hit. Has synergy with Winter Orb and Tangle Wire. Main task is delaying Rebuild and Hurkyl's Recall. Another nice trick against Drain decks is to tap an Island at the end of your turn, than tap another one during your upkeep. 2 less Islands to counter!

Wasteland: Has lost some power in the metagame but stays essential to kill Workshops, Bazaars, Academys, …

Strip Mine: right

Chalice of the Void: Off all the decks I ever played, this one would be the one with the most one-sided Chalices. Chalice for 0 and 1 gives no problems to you but more so for your opponents. Chalice for 2 after a Sphere of Resistance or Winter Orb is some nice icing. Good against Moxen on the play, against Welders, Brainstorms, Oath, Disenchants, whole Fish-decks, …

Sphere of Resistance: Although this card seems to have lost some of its value, its stays good, especially because this deck is almost not affected by it. One Sphere is an annoyance for the opponent, two or three are deadly. The biggest advantage is that it makes Rebuild, Rack and Ruin, … cost 4, which Trinisphere cannot.

Winter Orb: I first tested this card in a tournament in Eindhoven (made top 8 for the first time) and it seriously surprised me. Seeing that a lot of decks play basics to counter Stax and such, this gives the needed disruption. Winter Orb doesn’t gives a rat’s ass if you’re basic or not. It has awesome synergy with Tangle Wire. In that tournament alone Winter Orb alone caused me to win against a Tinkered Colossus: “Tap your Colossus to Wire ‘cause your lands stay tapped”. I presume this also works against Oath. It gives you some extra space to play stuff while your opponent can’t counter. It doesn’t affect me very much because my lands produce 2 or 3 mana and I use Metalworkers. This card is here to stay. Perhaps it could drop down to three but in this deck, without a lot of draw or tutoring I like full 4 of’s.

Tangle Wire: This card also surprised me that tournament. I used to think less of this card because it isn’t a permanent lock but it was the most countered card. Especially Combo and Control are often very afraid of this. Like I said it has good synergy with Winter Orb. The last one prolongs the effect of Wire and makes it a more ‘permanent’ lock.

Trinisphere: right

Smokestack: In this deck you can often drive Stack up to more than 1 soot counter. I play 60 permanents and you almost always have more than your opponent. Only UbaStax can follow you. Bottled Cloister helps with this. Also, Smokestack is for MUD the only hope to remove particular permanents.

Bottled Cloister: This is no more or less than an one-sided Howling Mine. A nice side-effect is that it protects your hand against discard. It’s the most ‘cuttable’ card of the deck because it doesn’t complement to the lock. It does deliver the needed card-draw and I’m afraid the deck could fizzle without it. Often the first card to get sided out.

Memory Jar: Great, especially with Metalworker. Just watch out for Rebuild / Hurkyls.

Mishra's Workshop: right

Ancient Tomb: I used to play 4 Tombs and 0 Citys but the damage could pile up sometimes.

City of Traitors: The drawback isn’t too bad. When you have to sacrifie it, it mostly is for a land that’s as productive or more productive than itself (Tomb, Workshop) or more useful (Port, Wasteland). I only play 2 so the chance you draw both of them is pretty low.

Tolarian Academy, Lotus, Mana Crypt, Moxen, Sol Ring, Vault: right

Metalworker[/b]: Makes a LOT of mana. A first turn worker that sticks means second-turn madness! Pretty good with Cloister and Jar.


Sideboard:

Defense Grid: Good against control and combo. With one of these on the table your opponent can forget about counters and end-of-turn draw. Two is just plain sadistic. Pretty worthless against aggro-decks.

Damping Matrix: Very needed protection against Welders, Viashino Heretics, Goblin Tinkerer, Goblin Vandal, ... Also good against Mindslaver, Jester's Cap, ... Too bad it turns Karn into a vanilla 4/4. I mostly just complete my lock, sac the Matrix and kill.

Ensnaring Bridge: Very effective against Oath and Colossus when it sticks. Also good against Ichorid and other aggro when your hand is depleted.

Orb of Dreams: Good against Combo (especially Dragon). Try to go off when your moxen, lands, … come into play tapped. Buys you time to play some more locks. Also handy against Ichorid. It not only slows his Bazaars but it especially turns off the Ichorids. The Ghouls shouldn’t pose a problem. Again, good in combo with Winter Orb.

Like you can see the Sideboard is 16 cards. No, I’m not a cheater, I just can’t decide at the moment which card to play 3 times. Any suggestions?

Also, the sideboard isn’t set in stone. Other options are:

Caltrops: Game over for Ichorid and some Fish. Its job is at the moment filled in by Ensnaring Bridge.

Pithing Needle: Against Welder, Bazaar, … At the moment I play Damping Matrix instead.


Why I play this deck:

I think at the moment MUD is one of the best versions of Stax, especially due to the Metalworkers, Winter Orbs, … Because I don’t play Welders (like Uba & 5cStax) or tutors (like 5cStax), a Chalice for 0,1 and 2 is no problem and very powerful. Because I’m colorless, I can play all 4 Rishadan Ports, wich I think is pretty powerful at the moment.

Thanks for reading

WhiteWolf

[MaxxMatt]

@About Bottle Cloister
It has a deadly drawback: H.Recall, Rebuild and even other global bouncers, can carry out of the game your entire board, if they are announced in response to the Cloister's trigger.
Because of them, I would opt for different solutions.

@About the entire deck.
I had an hard on for this kind of deck in the past and I made a primer, here on TMD, too.
I really like your deck's redundancy and mana development but I had this problem in the past: you can't keep the lock going for almost forever, so you have to couple threats to locking pieces.
Your deck didn't solve this problems because 3 Karns aren't enough to see them fast after a good lock.
You have to wait and this slowness can hurt you a lot.
I played 3 Karns and 3 Triskelions, both for threats density and for flexibility popouses.

You forgot CoWs too: they are key spells to fight mirrors and aggrocontrol matchup.
They help you killing opponents lands AND they save yours too.

Hope it can help.
Maxx

[WhiteWolf]

MaxxMatt:

@About Bottle Cloister
Yeah, I'm aware of the drawback although it never came up in real life (weird enough). Would you consider other draw-options (and if yes, which one in Mono-brown?) OR would you drop them to make room for stuff like CoW's and Trisks?

@About the entire deck.
The lock doesn't need to go on forever. With 3 Karn and 4 Cloisters you mostly draw a Karn in time and then it's game over in a turn or two. But I have to admit it sometimes takes too long. In the first versions of the deck I solved this by playing 3 Razormanes in addition to the 3 Karns. I like them above Trisk without welders because of the 5-power and they're better against modern fish I think (more 2/2's). Eventually the Razormanes got dropped to make room.

I didn't forget about CoW's. I know it's blasphemy to drop them from Stax but it happened after a lot of consideration:
- Thery're indeed key spells in the mirror but mostly ONLY in the mirror.
- They don't happen to help destroy my opponent's lands in a lot of cases (unless I draw my Strip). There are a lot of basics and fetches around. Winter Orb and Rishadan Port fill the purpose now.
- My mana-base doesn't need saving except against the Mirror, in wich case I still have jewelry and Metalworkers.
- All of the above is made even more relevant if you consider I wasn't expecting any Stax at the tournament. Not to say I would include Cow's in another meta, at least not in the maindeck.
--> I would conclude CoW's strenght kind of diminishes along with that of Wasteland. Like I said, their function is replaced in this deck by Winter Orb and Rishadan Port wich are better against basics. I think CoW is a lot better in UbaStax and 5cStax where they can recur utility lands like Bazaar and Barbarian Ring and (most important) recur Strip (accesible via tutors). In MUD CoW seems cuttable to me.

Hope that made sense ...

WhiteWolf

     

[TheDB]

You should try Staff of domination.

Staff of Domination is a much better for this deck than bottled cloister.  It has more options and you get a combo with metal worker.

[MaxxMatt]

MaxxMatt:

@About Bottle Cloister
Yeah, I'm aware of the drawback although it never came up in real life (weird enough).
Would you consider other draw-options (and if yes, which one in Mono-brown?) OR would you drop them to make room for stuff like CoW's and Trisks?

I made the HRecall_On_Cloister's tricks more than once, so it can happens
In the end, I have no good options for you rather then playing with more Triskelions.
Additional drawers weren't printed yet, so I think that your good lock plus additional real threats would easily kill opponents

@About the entire deck.
The lock doesn't need to go on forever. With 3 Karn and 4 Cloisters you mostly draw a Karn in time and then it's game over in a turn or two. But I have to admit it sometimes takes too long. In the first versions of the deck I solved this by playing 3 Razormanes in addition to the 3 Karns. I like them above Trisk without welders because of the 5-power and they're better against modern fish I think (more 2/2's). Eventually the Razormanes got dropped to make room.

So, we are going to approach the game almost in the same way.
Feel free to draw into Karns or add more threats.
Statistically speaking, the Cloister's drawback is rare, and it would help you finding things.
I suppose that Triskelions or Masticore are metagame's calls.
I would prefer the firsts, because they can kill multiple targets.
I keep Razormane in sideboard for those archetypes with Rods, too.

I didn't forget about CoW's.
I know it's blasphemy to drop them from Stax but it happened after a lot of consideration:
- Thery're indeed key spells in the mirror but mostly ONLY in the mirror.
- They don't happen to help destroy my opponent's lands in a lot of cases (unless I draw my Strip). There are a lot of basics and fetches around. Winter Orb and Rishadan Port fill the purpose now.
- My mana-base doesn't need saving except against the Mirror, in wich case I still have jewelry and Metalworkers.
- All of the above is made even more relevant if you consider I wasn't expecting any Stax at the tournament. Not to say I would include Cow's in another meta, at least not in the maindeck.
--> I would conclude CoW's strenght kind of diminishes along with that of Wasteland. Like I said, their function is replaced in this deck by Winter Orb and Rishadan Port wich are better against basics. I think CoW is a lot better in UbaStax and 5cStax where they can recur utility lands like Bazaar and Barbarian Ring and (most important) recur Strip (accesible via tutors). In MUD CoW seems cuttable to me.

It sound overall acceptable, but in the end, I have to add additional details to convince you about how good is CoWs' impact onto a lot of different games.

Drawback: When in enter in play, it almost do nothing by itself.

Reasons to really play CoW, even now.
You can try to optimize the impact of CoW with the addition of Ghost Quarters over some combinations of other lands. They would take care of opponent's basic lands and you would prevent him from improving his own mana fonts with  Wires and SoR and Orbs. It functions really well. R.Ports in conjuction with CoW+Quarter and Wires/Chalices/SoR/Orbs, almost prevent opponents from being able to play anthying useful.

There are a lot of decks that would play both Rods/Shamans and CoWs/Wastelands.
Playing against such an opponent, you would not be able to produce mana at all, without the healing impact of CoW.

While I noticed that Wastelands are always not more than a non-issue for a lot of decks with basic lands, during the entire game, their own mana base would be so stressed out that they would be forced to play with them too.
Quarters, Waste and CoW can singlehandly win entire matches, if you can, contemporarily, proactively prevent opponent from playing other threats.

This is a possible list that I can suggest to you.
IMHO, the NEED that this deck have, is to reach AT LEAST 3 mana as soon as possible with the minor number of cards available.
So, more "multimana lands".
I bolded the little differences between our decks.



Mono Brown Control 2006 - MUD - MaxxMatt version

Winners - 10
4 Metalworker
4 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Triskelion

Lock Pieces - 23
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
3 Winter Orb
3 Crucible of the World
1 Trinisphere

Draw - 1
1 Memory Jar

Mana - 27
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
3 Ghost Quater
2 Rishadan Port / City of Traitors
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring

Sideboard - 15*
4 Defense Grid
4 Damping Matrix
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Orb of Dreams


Enjoy,
MaxxMatt

[xycsoscyx]

So what ever happened to the old tech of Grafted Skullcap (instead of the Cloisters)?  I always liked Skullcap, but moved onto Stax before I had a chance to try them out in MUD.  They power your Ensnaring Bridge by always having no hand, you don't worry about getting stuff RFG thanks to trigger tricks, and it's still an extra card (at the same cost?).  It also works well with Null Brooch (which I've noticed some UbaStax players trying out again).  Ahhh, it all comes full circle!  XD

[Jacob Orlove]

Skullcap has the same auto-lose trick that Cloister does--they respond to the "discard your hand" trigger with Hurkyl's or similar, and your board disappears.

[Hi-Val]

I second Staves over Cloisters.

Also, it seems that Sundering Titan would have a home in here. Running 1-2 is pretty strong; Titan is basically an entire Stax lock in one card. Have you thought about it?

[Vegeta2711]

Have you considered 1-2 Mindslaver? You run Metalworker and Ancient Tomb (Which should be a 4-of btw, you pretty much ALWAYS want a land that makes more than one mana on turn 1) which makes it usable on turn 2/3 unlike in normal MWS decks.

[GUnit]

I like the Staff of Domination suggestion and Sundering Titan should definitely be in the deck. Have you considered Jester's Cap? It seems like a very solid inclusion considering the prominence of gifts and combo right now.

[MaxxMatt]

@About Mindslaver & Titan

While the first is a bit overkill ( opponent would usualyl have only a few resources to abuse of and your lock would usually be enough to win ), Titan would be a nice replacement, maybe in the Trisk/Razormane slots.

I tried 2 or 3 of them in the past, as additional finishers, but after an extensive test, I cut them again because of their total cc.

I would play a deck that would be able to resolve more than one threat during any single turn, being able to go around counters and possible removals: barring some lucky Metalworker or MultipleMWs combinations of mana fonts, you would consume all your mana for Titan.

While Titan wins alone ( as JD referred some lines above ), a lot of decks can keep staying alive if opponent would throw a single threat every turn.

I would suggest to lower the mana curve of the deck as much as it is possible, in order to consume the initial hand faster and put a great pressure on opponents soon


@ About Jester's Cap
These are more than metagame's calls.
I would add them into the side, because a lot of deck would be singlehandly killed by his first kick.
If you could have played some form of recursion for them ( Welders ), I would have suggested them in maindeck too, but because of the high number of threats and the impossibility to transform J-Cap in a winner againt all the opponent's deck, I think that leaving them in side ( 3of or a full set, depending on the field ) would be perfect. 



In a final instance, this deck would worry about
Ichorid ( it can went around your hate with recurring free threats )
Fast Combo going first ( you can't counter )
Control decks going first ( they can develop their own mana fast and keep you  low on threats with removals ).

If you add CoWs, as I suggested to you yesterday, aggro-control decks and aggro ones, would be a non issue, especially if coupled with the rest of the deck.


A possible sideboard could be:
4 Caltrops ( Ichorid )
4 Jester's Cap ( Combo - Control )
4 Granite Shard ( Welders )
3 Esnaring Bridge / Duplicant ( Aggro - Oath - DSC )

The loss of Defence Grids can be considered huge: I would add them back to my sideboard, if Ichorid would not be played in my area, instead of Caltrops.

[meadbert]

Karn is Legendary so 4 is probably too many.

[xycsoscyx]

Hmm, that's right, timing is everything, and without Welders, having to discard everything is as good as having to remove everything from the game.  I still like the deck, though, I may have to try it out.

[Evenpence]

@About the entire deck.
I had an hard on for this kind of deck in the past and I made a primer, here on TMD, too.
I really like your deck's redundancy and mana development but I had this problem in the past: you can't keep the lock going for almost forever, so you have to couple threats to locking pieces.
Your deck didn't solve this problems because 3 Karns aren't enough to see them fast after a good lock.
You have to wait and this slowness can hurt you a lot.
I played 3 Karns and 3 Triskelions, both for threats density and for flexibility popouses.

You forgot CoWs too: they are key spells to fight mirrors and aggrocontrol matchup.
They help you killing opponents lands AND they save yours too.

Hope it can help.
Maxx

This is an extremely good observation on the deck, however short it may be.  You'll see that Maxx has tried to go in more of a Workshop Aggro fashion.  Workshop Aggro doesn't necessarily just throw down Juggernauts or Triskelions and hope to win - it also has locks to delay the opponent from winning until you actually deal lethal damage.  My Day 2 Richmond List is workshop aggro Ubastax - it was packing 1 Karn, 2 Triskelion, 3 Juggernaut in addition to Smokestack, Crucible, Uba Mask, Jester's Caps etc (Oh man is Ubastax versatile).

@About Bottle Cloister
It has a deadly drawback: H.Recall, Rebuild and even other global bouncers, can carry out of the game your entire board, if they are announced in response to the Cloister's trigger.

NULL BROOCH.  It's basically the best card ever, and fits perfectly into this deck.

On to points about the deck (both decks) :

At the very least you need 24 mana sources.  Madmaxx definitely on the higher side because he has 27, excluding Metalworkers.  You have EIGHTEEN!  (don't count Metalworkers as mana - although they produce mana, you can't keep a hand with double metalworker, Sol Ring and 4 lock cards).

I'll post more about this later, but I have to go now.  MUD is by far my favorite deck of all time, and I love playing it.

[WhiteWolf]

I think MaxxMatt voiced my opinion and thougts pretty well. There are a lot of responses but I'll try to adress them all.

Mindslaver / Jester's Cap: I'd rather have Jester's Cap to fight combo and control. An activated Cap is almost always a game win against those kind of decks and cheaper than Slaver. 4 Caps in the sideboard are surely an option in my usually control and combo infested metagame. Probably in place of the Orb of Dreams.

Titan: although very strong when it hits (it can kill the Islands we are all afraid of) and a great and pretty quick finisher, I'm afraid 8 mana is a bit much. Yes, I know I can produce a lot of mana, especially with an active Metalworker, but I'd rather drop my hand (of cheaper artifacts) than pour it all into one Titan. MaxxMatt already mentioned some of the advantages about this strategy: more things to counter, 'dodge' removal, ... Also it's great to win the permanent war.

Staff: It's a nice combo with Metalworker, but is it good enough without it? I'll have to try it out.

MaxxMatt sideboard : I think Caltrops and Shard are too narrow. Ensnaring Bridge is already strong against aggro and Damping Matrix is not only effective against Welders but also Heretic, Vandal and various artifacts. One advantage I see in Shards is killing Confidants. The Caps I like. The loss of Defense Grid is indeed huge. A resolved Grid against control is pretty strong.

CoW: I'm still not convinced CoW is necessary for MUD. I know the power of CoW in 5cStax and UbaStax, I played them a lot (with CoW). But as I already said the main strenght of CoW seems to be in recurring Strip Mine and utility lands. I've never missed the CoW's in testing or tournament play with this deck. What are other people thoughts on this?

Null Brooch: this could be a good addition, seeing that my hand is always empty.

A lot of you suggested 1 or 2 of's like Slaver and Titan but I don't know that's the best idea. I believe MUD, without its tutoring and limited card-drawing, should play 4 of's.

Evenpence: I actually have 27 mana sources (without the Workers). I think you missed the Ports, Wastes and Strip because I listed them under 'disruption'.

Lastly, what's everybodys opinion on Winter Orb and Rishadan Port? I really like them in this 'basic lands' meta.

A new deck list according to your suggestions:

MUD

3 Karn, Silver Golem / 3 Sundering Titan

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Winter Orb
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack

4 Staff of Domination / 4 Null Brooch
1 Memory Jar

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra’s Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Metalworker

Sideboard

3 Defense Grid
4 Damping Matrix
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Jester’s Cap

Thanks for all the comments. Keep it coming. I'm a little surprised for all the intrest in MUD. I believe it's a very strong deck-concept because of its redundancy, mana consistancy, ...

WhiteWolf

[madmanmike25]

WhiteWolf is correct in that redundancy(4 of's) is the key in MUD decks just as in traditional UbaStax builds, or any decks that run ZERO tutors for that matter.  True, u may be able to randomly drop a titan and win a game here and there, but in my builds of MUD, spheres + extremely high casting artifacts = not good.  True, you have metal workers AND mishras, but they dont always come out.

I have tried the cloisters out and they seem ok i guess.  True, they can be bounced for devastating effects, but if you are laying out most of the cards you draw, who cares?  You arent going to keep your hand merely for metalworker if you have the chance to put artifacts on the board.

That being said, have u considered Mind's Eye?  They can work before your next turn(provided you have 6 mana) and if I'm correct multipe mind's eye's would trigger.  Your opponents brainstorms would be awesome for you.  I guess testing is in order to find out if that one extra mana is the difference.

Also, why not try the old school Icy Manipulator.  They work similarly to Rishadan's and can also tap Angels, Colossus, Fatty, etc.  Just an idea.  (Plus the Beta Icy is wicked looking)

And although Crucible is an AWESOME card, I have found that it slows mud down unless you have stripmine(as has been said previously) or maybe more aggro for a faster clock.  I think if you tried them with Ghost Quarters AND Orb of Dreams MAINDECKED, you might have something worthwhile.

Again, just for the record: Yes these types of decks can produce insane amounts of mana, but generally u want to max out your 4 cc and less artifacts because you arent going to get that mana that fast before your opponent might win.  Most of the time I average about 3 mana first turn(give or take).
Hope any of that helps.

mike

[meadbert]

Well Redunancy works in Uba Stax because Bazaar discards redundant cards.  Also Welder can Weld out a redundant card for one that you need.  This deck has no Bazaars and no Welders so you have to question if 3-4 of a Legendary Creature is a good idea.  I mean if you have Karn and Metalworker in play and another Karn in the yard then your opponent can weld out Metalworker for Karn #2 and you just lost all of them.

On the same note 4 Damping Matrix and 4 of anything that does  not help in multiples is sort of pointless since you have nothing to do with the extras.  Uba Stax can at least exchange them for other cards.

[WhiteWolf]

madmanmike25: I have the feeling you really understand what I'm trying to do with the deck. I'm happy someone else came to the conclusion that however good they are; CoW doesn't really belong in (all) MUD. You also make good points about the redundancy and mana costs. Mind's Eye I would have to try out. I can imagine it can be quiet cumbersome to need to leave mana open for drawing, although 'stealing' Brainstorms is hot. Icy Manupilator was the last thing I wanted to test out before I shelved the deck a few weeks ago. Now that I've taken it back up, I'm surely going test them. They seem great in theory: strangling mana, tapping big men (and ladies).

Aargh, there are so much possibilites for Monobrown it seems.

meadbert: I really feel the redundancy is a necessary evil. If you have 3 Karns you don't see a second one too often. And if you do, that's not really a problem. Your opponent is often dead anyway. I really don't see the use of including singletons in a deck without tutors. The reason to include a card is to use it (duuh) but if your chances to draw it are so slim, why even include it? (I hope that makes sense, would be much easier to explain in Dutch  ) Redundant artifacts can have their uses: a buffer against destruction, attacking with Karn, Smokestack fodder, ...

WhiteWolf

[WhiteWolf]

In the light of the vulnerability to Rebuild/Hurkyl's of Cloister and Skullcap (you lose your board and hand) I went on a search after other 'brown' carddraw and came up with this:

Mindstorm Crown          3

At the beginning of your upkeep, draw a card if you had no cards in hand at the beginning of this turn. If you had a card in hand, Mindstorm Crown deals 1 damage to you.

It's 1 mana cheaper than Cloister and the drawback is pretty irrelevant. You play your hand every turn.

During my search I also came across this one:

Culling Scales         3

At the beginning of your upkeep, destroy target nonland permanent with the lowest converted mana cost among nonland permanents in play. (If two or more permanents are tied for lowest cost, target any one of them.)

Maybe an extra Smokestack that can take care of opponents moxen, ... If you don't have 0cc (and 1cc) down yourself (unlikely) it could also take care of for example fishy creatures.

The last one is pretty farfetched but what are your opinions on these two cards?

The last thought I had was to incorporate Null Rod in MUD. Winter Orb + Null Rod (together with Wire and Chalice) is a pretty heavy lock. This would however take a complete revamping of the deck: probably no more Metalworker, Karn, ... I have a decklist in the workings and maybe I'll post it after some more refining. The greatest problem is a decent win-condition (Titan is too expensive so at the moment I play Mishra's Factorys). Anybody else think a Null Rod MUD version is possible? And any ideas for a good win condition?

WhiteWolf

[madmanmike25]

Metalworker is what makes MUD decks feasible imo.  But, honestly if u play 4 spheres, 4 chalice, 4 tanglewires, and trinishphere maindeck, that should be enough.  If you are more interested in hard locks by adding null rod, play ubastax.

The problem with culling scales is that they eat up your own moxen and chalice's.  Meantime, your opponent might just hold on to his own moxen until scales eats itself.  I would sooner run powder keg.  Im sure the scales could be good in certain cituations, but not good enough.  It may be nice against fish tho.  Also, what to take out??

The crown might be worthwhile as well, but u need to test and find out the average turn in which you have no cards in hand (i would guess 3rd turn on average).  In this case if the cloister comes down sooner, you would already have drawn cards off it.  But then again, you would rather lay down a lock/disrupting component down sooner over a card drawing artifact.

I have been testing orb of dreams maindeck and have been liking it.  It is great on the play, as well as good for slowing down fetch lands and combo, and are great combined with tanglewires and stax.  You should try it.

[WhiteWolf]

madmanmike25 : I agree that the loss of Metalworker changes the deck but you can't deny that Null rod is one of the - maybe the - best lock component you can play.

Culling scales is indeed propably too narrow. Just one of those cards that looks viable you know.

The Crown could be really something I guess if you're worried about a lot of Rebuild/Hurkyl's crap in response to your Cloister/Skullcap. The only drawback is that your hand MUST be empty to draw an extra card (the life loss is irrelevant), although that's not a big problem with MUD. It's like you say: you mostly play the Cloister as a finishing touch to replenish your hand. I'm going to test the Crowns out for sure.

I never really thought of Orb of Dreams as a maindeck card but it may be something to try. They're indeed godly against fetchlands and have nice synergy with the Winter Orbs I already play. Other things I think of are Ichorid, Oaths Angels, ... Isn't it a pain in the ass to have your Wastelands come into play tapped (I know the opp is tapped too)? How much do you play maindeck and how where they really? Maybe it would be interesting to post your list or pm it to me.

On another note: what are everybodys thoughts on Ghost Quarter and God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai. In my limited testing Ghost Quarter (+ CoW) takes too long to have an effect (most decks play 4/5 basics unless it's GrimLong, Ichorid, ... ). Could be better with Orb of Dreams. God's Eye looks crappy but was pretty nice. They have all sorts of little interactions: Eye + CoW = Smokey on 2, can be a finisher, helps win the permanent war in the mirror, ...

WhiteWolf

[vroman]

the best colorless draw engine is hands down bazaar. if you play bazaar in mud, you might as well play uba mask for disruption and to fuel the draw engine. if you play uba mask you might as well play welder to gain the ubalock, as well as further abuse bazaar, and just be awesome in general. you can see where Im going w this.

[WhiteWolf]

vroman: I can see where you're going yes. I don't want to turn this in UbaStax however. I played UbaStax and admit it's a very very strong deck but I just really love MonoBrown. I think adding the Ubazaar draw engine sucks up too much slots in this deck. That would take away of one of MUD's strenghts: the great quantity of locks.

In my eternal conquest to kill the basic Island, my arch-nemesis, I stumbled upon this one:

Ark of Blight          2

3, T, Sacrifice Ark of Blight: Destroy target land.

Pity the cc isn't 3 and the activation cost 2 but whatever ... Do you think this card could have its value to kill basic lands in MUD? I know it's farfetched.

On another note, in some sort of way Orb of Dreams is good against basic lands. Gifts for example plays 4/5 Islands. When they play them 'normally' they're okay but when they have to fetch for them they're slowed a lot because of both the fetch and the Island coming into play tapped. Buying you a few extra turns this way could give you enough time to bring a Smokestack or Wire/Orb or something online ...

WhiteWolf

[meadbert]

Regarding Karn, I still believe 4 is just too many.  I know he is good, but do you see why he is terrible in multiples.  All it takes is one artifact in the yard and your opponent play welder games with you all day long.

With any 4 of you have a 13% chance of seeing two in your first 11 cards.  That is too likely to be ignored.  Dropping down to 3 actually cuts the probability of drawing into 2 Karns in half so that right there makes a big difference.  3 is much better than 4 and at 2 you are quite safe.
I have been told never to run multiple Karns in a Stax deck but I personally like 2.  I do think that 4 is just too many.  Here is brief chart that summarizes the risk of drawing a second Karn in your first 11.

4. 13%
3. 7%
2. 2%
1. 0%

[madmanmike25]

He only has 3 Karn's in his latest decklist(as posted).  3 is fine. 2 is not enough, and 4 is too many.  Done.

Regarding the ark, all I can suggest is NO.  You will have too many cards devoted to land destruction and not actually do anything with your own deck.  This is especially true if you are on the draw and they go broken, what will all your anti-land cards do then? 

Regarding  Orb of dreams:

"Isn't it a pain in the ass to have your Wastelands come into play tapped (I know the opp is tapped too)?" -WhiteWolf

You have to remember that barring any workshop type deck that u are insanely slower than most decks out there.  This helps to level the playing field a tad, great 1st turn drop, and hurts them more than u.  After first turn, they have good synergy with tanglewire and stax.  I am currently testing Orb of dreams with ghost quarters.  The max for basics is about 4-5 correct?? (for most viable vintage decks that is)

I am finding the more 3cc and less artifacts i play with, the better my first turns are, even tho u lose some brokenness of casting the bigger chunks of metal.  It makes the deck more consistent.

BTW have you revised your list any?  Any matchup analysis?  Tru there are many possible card choices for mud, but VIABLE choices are limited, keep that in mind and good luck.

[WhiteWolf]

madmanmike25: Yeah, the Ark is probably a bad idea, mainly because it costs too much (mana-wise and slotwise) to just remove one land.

I'm definitely going to try out the Orb of Dreams asap. The more I think about them, the more I like them. Their synergy with Tangle Wire, Smokestack and in my deck Winter Orb can't be ignored. They also screw with combo and Ichorid. I would think you need to play all 4 of them because it's a card you want to see very early, even first turn in some match-ups. Luckiliy thanks to Karn you can turn extra copies into Hill Giants. Redundancy is just needed in MUD. Together with them I'm going to test the Ghost Quarters. I deem(ed) them to slow but this can be different with Orb of Dreams.

I can confirm your statement about the low cc's in MUD. It indeed makes the deck more consistent AND gives the opportunity to play TWO threats on turn 1 against counterspells.

I did some more testing against a friend of mine who's a pretty good Gifts player. In my eyes the games always come down to him reaching 3 mana or not (mostly 3 basic Islands). If I could keep him from reaching that I could abuse that timeframe, drop a Smokestack or Karn and finish him of. Otherwise he would Rebuild (Hurkyl after board) and Tinker-Colossus or Tendrils me out. Overall, I had a slight edge in game wins, although that could just be luck. I have good hopes for the Orb of Dreams to delay this "3 mana" threshold by at least a turn, even more if it concerns fetches.

The new list I'm going to test is this:

4 Karn, Silver Golem

3 Crucible of Worlds / 1 Quarter + 1 Waste + 1 Worb

3 Ghost Quarter
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Winter Orb
4 Orb of Dreams
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra’s Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Metalworker

Sideboard

4 Defense Grid
4 Damping Matrix
4 Jester’s Cap
3 Ensnaring Bridge / 3 Duplicant

As you can see some slots like the CoW's in the main and the Bridges in the side are in doubt. I still think the CoW's aren't needed but everybody on this thread seems to think they're needed. So I'm trying them at the moment. Honestly I believe them to be a bit underwhelming in this deck.

4 Karn is something most people disagree with. Only MaxxMatt's uses 4 of them too. I'm going to try them however. They're a prime weapon against moxen and speed your deck up. I noticed yesterday, while playing only 3 Karns that I had the opponent in a pretty nice lock but I didn't draw a Karn (or Stack) and in the end the opponent could wriggle out of the lock. Another option is Triskelions if you expect a lot of Welders (one of the biggest problem cards for this deck if you can't lead with a Chalice on one I think).

madmanmike25: Could I see your list. I'm very interested.

WhiteWolf

[WhiteWolf]

I did some more testing yesterday with my new list against UW Fish and Meandeck Gifts. These were my observations:
* Orb of Dreams is pretty good. It “steals” one or more turns (fetchlands) from the opponent. I haven’t tested against Combo or Ichorid however where they could shine.
* The deck needs some drawing OR more finishers. Often I have a nice lock on the opponent but it takes too long too kill him. Bottled Cloister/Mindstorm Crown OR Triskelions are the prime candidates at the moment. Triskelion could also be nice against Fish and Welders. The only problem is to find room.
* Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard isn’t a sure slot. Against Fish it bought me some time when I could keep my hand under 2 cards. Against Gifts the Bridge didn’t matter much. When they went for the Tinker-Colossus kill they often already bounced my board and the Bridge was gone. I can see the Bridge being good against Goblins, Ichorid and the like but Orb of Dreams already screws with Ichorid and Goblins I never see. A resolved Defense Grid is nice against Gifts (and Fish concerning their FoW's). The Caps were of course crippling but not always game ending for Gifts. Matrix never was needed in these match-ups.
* Ghost Quarter wasn’t that great. I’m in doubt between these and Rishadan Ports.
* Crucible is good in some match-ups, but almost useless in others. Against Fish it helped me too protect my mana-base but against Gifts it was never an issue. Also CoW-Waste never came up because I was busy casting other locks. I think I’d rather cut these in favour of more utility lands. That way the slots are always useful and the mana-base is ‘protected’ because of more lands.

So, the list above stays the same except for:

Main:
- 4 Orb of Dreams (they're good but seem the least powerful of the locks, maybe good sideboard material)
+ 4 Bottled Cloister/Triskelion (wich do you think is the best?)

Side:
- 3 Esnaring Bridge
- 1 Defense Grid
+ 4 Orb of Dreams

Maybe some of the 4'ofs in the main (Orb, Karn, Trisk) could be replaced by Orb of Dreams/Cloister but I really really like 4'ofs in MUD.

Madmanmike25: I like your sig. The Doors truly are one of the best bands ever.

WhiteWolf

[madmanmike25]

My list is quite similar to yours, here goes:

MANA: 26

5 mox
1 mana crypt
1 black lotus
1 sol ring
1 mana vault *edit, wouldnt it be nice to have 2 crypts tho?
4 workshops
4 ancient tombs
4 ghost quarter
3 wasteland
1 stripmine
1 tolarian academy

CREATURES:7
4 metalworker
3 Karn

CHUNKS OF METAL:27
4 smokestax
4 tanglewire
4 chalice
4 sphere of resistance
4 cloister/crown (im undecided)
3 orb of dreams
3 crucible
1 trinisphere


My reasoning again with only 3 karns is that i dont really want to see 2 of them in my opening hand.  Thats my personal rule for 4 of's.  If i would not be happy to have 2 in my opening grip(or its just too powerful to play less than 4), i play 3 max.  Chances are rare he comes down first turn anyways, and even if he does, thats hardly broken at all.  The deck isnt about gettin karn out fast, its about the lock(this deck anyway), if im trying to race them with karn, chances are ive already lost.  You try to win at your leisure after the locks come down(if thats possible) *note to all of you, stop playing combo already

Another personal rule is to have 26 mana sources unless it is one of the hated combo decks.  This type of deck REALLY doesnt want to mulligan.

Yes, you need 4 draw cards and i think i may be leaning towards crown a bit because as i stated earlier, you arent trying to put a card drawing artifact in play first.  You need to disrupt your opponent first THEN you can try to get some extra cards.

The reason im using 4 ghost quarters is that i want to TRULY test them before i dismiss them.  They have been hit and miss.  Use your wastes on the duals, then attack the basics with the G.Q.  Another think, the G.Q.'s also stop troublesome lands such as workshops and bazaars, so they get the job done in that sense.  But then again, i havent tried your rishadan ports.

And i also have not tested the winter orb either.  I think if the winter orb is better then it can take the slot of the orb of dreams.  But, the orb stops dragon and ichorid and is more detrimental on the play imo.

Also i have accepted that mud will never be a truly broken deck and may never top 8.  But that doesnt stop me from liking it That is, until another mirrodin-type block comes out of course.

So i think it comes down to G.Q vs Ports and Winter orb vs dreamy orb.  more testing is needed.

*The Doors/LedZep/Stones are like my holy trinity for music.  waaay to many good songs.
mike

[zulander]

The only suggestion I would have is to splash blue. Maybe I'm crazy but it adds a lot of solid cards to the pool without having to go into mono blue or even affinity. Ancestral/timewalk/broodstar/thoughtcast and others. Now that I think of it, oldschool affinity doesn't sound too bad.

[WhiteWolf]

(Sorry for the long post if someone is bothered by that, I just like it to have some real discussion about my favourite deck.)

madmanmike25: It’s nice to see that we came up with such close lists. The main differences are indeed the Winter Orb / Orb of Dreams and Ghost Quarter / Rishadan Port. On the other hand within MUD the core is pretty much set in stone: Chalice/Sphere/Wire/Stack/Shop/Tomb/Waste/ArtiMana. There are only a few slots open for testing. Maybe our differences aren’t that big: Quarter and Port both deal with basic lands and Worb and DreamOrb tap the basics (okay, DreamOrb does more than that).

Winter Orb / Orb of Dreams :

Regarding your list I would up the DreamOrb count to 4. To me it seems it’s a card you want to see first turn. One of the main duties of the card is screwing with fetchlands and dealing with fast combo, so they’re best first turn on the play. Pity they’re useless (outside of Karn animation) in multiples.

If I had to choose between Worb and DreamOrb I would need to test DreamOrb more but I would hesitate to cut Worbs. They’ve been very nice so long. Most control-decks see it as a real must-counter. I advise you to try them out.

Maybe it isn’t a choice between Worb and DreamOrb. They work very nice in conjunction. Many people ‘wait out’ the Worb by laying untapped lands until they have enough mana to cast their bomb (this is counting you don’t follow up the Worb with other disruption). With DreamOrb working with the Worb this strategy is not possible.

Ghost Quarter / Rishadan Port :

I think this depends on the inclusion of CoW or not. Without CoW the Ghost Quarters seem lesser than Ports. Even with CoW the Quarters can take 3/4/5 turns before they’ve ‘lessened’ their mana. On top of that CoW is still the most questionable card (in this deck!) to me. Like I said a few times already the CoW seem mostly there to protect my manabase against Fish and the like. The CoW/Waste lock was never an issue (although I haven’t tested against all nonbasics yet). Of course, the Quarter takes one mana and the Port two. Furthermore the Quarter can take out Shops, Bazaars, Academys, Mazes, …

Cloister / Crown / (Triskelion) :

Honestly I haven’t tested the Crowns yet. How have they been for you? The Cloister I did test and when left alone for a few turns they can give you enough cards to bury your opponent under an avalanche of locks. Also very good to smash through counter-walls. Another advantage that came up once or twice is that they protect your (small) hand against discard. I’m probably going to test the Crowns this evening and report tomorrow. After thinking some more about them I discovered a disadvantage. Imagine this situation: a Chalice on two in play (not so uncommon) and a Worb or Sphere in hand. You could keep the card in hand, take one damage (whatever) and draw 0 extra cards (damn!). This could be solved by playing the Worb/Sphere (countered) to empty your hand but that way you lose valuable mana. Of course this is just all theory, I would have to see it in real action.

At the moment the (4) draw-artifacts (be it Cloister or Crown) are in competition with (4) more win-conditions (most likely Triskelions) for the same slots. Although they both raise your win-conditions in a way (Triskelions directly, Cloister draws Karns faster), they both have other advantages: Triskelion is nice against aggro and Welders, the Cloister draws not only Karn faster but also extra locks. Both of them suffer from the same disadvantage: they don’t directly contribute to the lock while MUD must try to be all mana and locks because you’re so draw-independent. Karn is a win-condition and lock (mox munching).

Again, like with Worb/DreamOrb, a combination of draw and extra kills would be best.

A few questions for you (and others of course):

Speaking of win-conditions: do you ever have problems to draw your Karns fast enough or are the opponents wriggling out of your lock due to the slowness of your deck sometimes?

How do you deal with Welders? How much do they pose a problem?

How do you deal with the mirror (meaning MUD, UbaStax, 5cStax, ... ). I feel this match-up can be enervating.

About CoW: I thought you weren’t playing any. What made you change your mind? The inclusion of DreamOrb and Quarter?

What is your opinion on these cards: Null Brooch, maindeck Jester's Cap and Mishra's Helix (5cc; x,tap: tap x target lands)? Helix sounds fun and Null Brooch seems powerful when in play.

Do you think Sculpting Steel has merit: On its own (in a vacuum) it does nothing but it could:
- make a Chalice on 0
- make an extra Sphere
- make an extra Smokestack (with 0 counters)
- make an extra Cloister
- make an extra Metalworker
- make a fresh Tangle Wire (I often wish I could play 8 of these)
- copy an opposing Colossus to hold the original of
- when nothing of the above is needed, you can make a superflous extra of Worb, DreamOrb, ... in case of individual arti-destruction.
- ...

Also i have accepted that mud will never be a truly broken deck and may never top 8.  But that doesnt stop me from liking it  That is, until another mirrodin-type block comes out of course.

I wouldn’t underestimate the deck. The first time ever I played in a tournament I played MUD and made top 8. Then I was stopped by my own nerves (the pressure of a first top 8) and my opponent who played some sort of AggroShopAffinityModular deck. The MUD I played then was in my eyes inferior to the versions I’m testing right know. Had I played the sided Damping Matrixes then, I think I could have screwed that ShopAggro player (his engine was Skullclamp and only solution Heretic) but whatever. Also I had zero testing at that moment and just picked up the deck that morning. I really have good confidence in MUD. The only thing that really scares me is mass bounce (aka Rebuild and Hurkyl) and sometimes the unpredictable mirror. If we could find a solution to that, I suspect this deck to make top tiers. Anyway, talking like this isn’t really helping the deck and just speculation. And yes, we urgently need some MUD-loving from the new sets!

To conclude this is my test-version at the moment:

3 Karn, Silver Golem

3 Ghost Quarter
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Winter Orb
4 Orb of Dreams
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack

3 Bottled Cloister
1 Memory Jar

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra’s Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Metalworker

Sideboard

4 Defense Grid
4 Damping Matrix
4 Jester’s Cap
3 Ensnaring Bridge

The only suggestion I would have is to splash blue. Maybe I'm crazy but it adds a lot of solid cards to the pool without having to go into mono blue or even affinity. Ancestral/timewalk/broodstar/thoughtcast and others. Now that I think of it, oldschool affinity doesn't sound too bad.

Zulander: I appreciate every opinion, but I want to keep the deck MonoBrown. Adding blue could be something, but makes it a whole different deck altogether.

WhiteWolf