Empty the Warrens

[desolutionist]

Although Empty the Warrens is inferior to Tendrils of Agony in Gifts and in Long, certain attributes of the card seem viable and possibly broken in a deck that wants to abuse it.  The only apparent advantage that Empty the Warrens has over Tendrils of Agony is obvious; mini-storm still gets the job done, opening the possibility to be less reliant on a particular succession of cards. 

Consider topdecking an Empty the Warrens in the control mirror and adding it to your collection of idle moxen and other spells:

Spell 1: Mox.
Spell 2: Mox.
Spell 3. Repeal (Mox).
Spell 4: Mox
Spell 5: Empty the Warrens.

You've successfully generated 8-10 unanswerable, unpredictable, and uncounterable goblin tokens that will win the game within the next 2 turns without revealing any intentions of going on the offensive until EtW is actually played.  No prior set-up is required.  Almost any given hand is an ideal EtW hand. 

ToA requires a conditional environment and is more prone to disruption, elongating the game anyway.  It isn't truly an instant-kill.

2 Empty the Warrens 
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tinker
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Repeal
2 Impulse
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
5 Island
4 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy

*Not much thought was put into the particular card choices or the ratios because the deck is only being used to illustrate my idea.

The deck itself is completely invulnerable to graveyard hate and isn't slowed by an other commonly played sideboard card other than Trickbind, Pryoclasm, and Massacre (All of which demand a solution, I just haven't thought of it yet...  Conversion?).  Echoing Truth to an extent is also a definite problem; however, because the deck is packing 4 Repeals, 1 Chain of Vapor, and 12 counterspells it shouldn't be too devastating most of the time.

I'm not even sure myself if it will work as flawlessly as I hope it to, but the logic seems to favor it.  Any refutations?

[lordmayhem]

Any refutations?

Its very vulnerable.

Balance
Pyroclasm
Massacre
Engineered Plague
Echoing Truth
..
etc

[Vegeta2711]

It doesn't kill immediately. Tapping out (or being damn close to it) just to win 2 turns later is begging for any combo or opposing gifts deck to run you over with their Tendrils kill. I much rather spend a turn or two 'setting up' while keeping myself protected than throw out an early Warrerns.

It isn't truly an instant-kill.

Um, yes it is. You make 9 storm and play ToA. Seems pretty instant-death situation to me.

[zulander]

The same disruption that hurts TOA hurts empty the warrens as well. The only difference between the two is that TOA kills this turn, and warens kills in 2 turns.

[desolutionist]

The only difference between the two is that TOA kills this turn, and warens kills in 2 turns.

It cannot be simplified to this. (There are 2 differences)  If ToA caused 6 loss of life per copy, then you would have a valid argument.  The other difference is that EtW can be played at almost any given time while ToA can only be played under conditional circumstances.

So,

ToA: Wins instantly in a conditional environment

EtW:  Wins second to instantly in an unconditional environment (recurring damage at a turn's expense)

It doesn't kill immediately. Tapping out (or being damn close to it) just to win 2 turns later is begging for any combo or opposing gifts deck to run you over with their Tendrils kill. I much rather spend a turn or two 'setting up' while keeping myself protected than throw out an early Warrerns.

The only motivation behind using EtW is that you're able to use it (and win) before you would be capable of resolving a lethal ToA.

The tapping out argument is trivial.  That is more of a question of whether or not you're making the correct play.  No one ever complained about tapping out to Tinker for Colossus -- There are just certain circumstances where it isn't a wise maneuver.


** I want to make this clear: I am not claiming that Empty the Warrens should replace Tendrils of Agony.  I am merely suggesting it as an alternative. **

[Vegeta2711]

The tapping out argument is trivial.  That is more of a question of whether or not you're making the correct play.

Except it's not, because you don't kill on the same turn you cast the Warrens. 

If the correct play is to wait, then Tendrils ends up being superior. If it's not to wait, you still open yourself up for a turn which is only somewhat offset by FoW and Mis-D.

[ashiXIII]

If this were viable, (and I don't think it is) it would probably be in a U/R Gifts shell with Recoup/Burning Wish to recur Time Walk so that Warrens actually wins. You could argue that if you're doing this, it would be the same (or easier) to use Colossus, but it wouldn't be. This isn't vulnerable to Goblin Welder or Bounce. It might be worth testing, but I don't think it'll make the cut, ultimately.

[The Atog Lord]

Sadly, this card is vulnerable to Echoing Truth, a very popular bounce spell.

[ashiXIII]

Sadly, this card is vulnerable to Echoing Truth, a very popular bounce spell.

It's very popular, yes, but mostly just in Slaver. Gifts and Storm combo opt for other spells over this almost always. Since right now Slaver isn't seeing a lot of play, I wouldn't be too worried about E-Truth.

[desolutionist]

I mentioned Truth near the end of my first post. 

Echoing Truth to an extent is also a definite problem; however, because the deck is packing 4 Repeals, 1 Chain of Vapor, and 12 counterspells it shouldn't be too devastating most of the time.

---

Even if EtW isn't so good that it deserves to be mained in any deck, it should at least find refuge in a Gifts SB because it is excellent in several matches.  As Colby pointed out, Stax has no answers to 6-10 gobos.  It also consistent against Fish and probably would be a better counter-strategy than Duress when encountering Trickbind because multiple EtWs in addition to ToA and Colossus are more threats than Fish has answers (Trickbinds) for.

Nevertheless, It is understandable to be skeptical but it definitely merits testing in more than just the areas that I originally considered.

[unknown.root]

As Colby pointed out, Stax has no answers to 6-10 gobos. 

We have Balance and 3 tutors to find it.

[Evenpence]

As Colby pointed out, Stax has no answers to 6-10 gobos.

We have Balance and 3 tutors to find it.

1)  Ubastax has no tutors for anything that can win against multiple little goblins.
2)  They have counterspells.
3)  You have no other way to beat it.
4)  That's only 4 cards in your deck, and you may have already used tutors.
5)  Even if you do find balance, you can only cast it once, while they can cast Empty many times via Recoup and Will.

Luckily, however, it's only good against us and possibly Fish.

[zulander]

Yeah, fish doesn't play stifle or meddling mage. You are correct.

[Evenpence]

Yeah, fish doesn't play stifle or meddling mage. You are correct.

Luckily, however, it's only good against us and possibly Fish.

RTFP.

[desolutionist]

Yeah, fish doesn't play stifle or meddling mage. You are correct.

If Stifle should prevent the use of cards with activated and triggered abilities in the Fish matchup, then Counterspell should prevent the use of spells in the control matchup.


If EtW resolves, it is going to be difficult for the Fish player to recover.  It gives the Fish player more threats the worry about, more cards to counter, and more situations where he is going to have to avoid playing a Meddling Mage so that he can leave mana open for a Trickbind.  EtW doesn't demolish Fish as it does Stax, it merely improves Gifts' chances at winning.

[dicemanx]

EtW is an interesting option, but also deserving of consideration is Grapeshot. While Grapeshot is more difficult to win with, it is also more flexible in that it can serve to remove Welders or Fish's problematic creatures. I have a feeling though that neither card is optimal in Gifts, which wants to minimize the number of "dead" (conditional) cards as much as possible. Even the idea of maindecking Tendrils doesn't sit well with me unless its brought in to replace Burning Wish (which seems like a mistake to do in the first place). About the only configuration that involves a main deck Tinker DSC, Burning Wish, and storm kill spell that I would consider is one that involves Grapeshot owing to its flexibility as a potentially important removal spell.

[brianpk80]

This is a nice card with a lot of potential applications.  I wouldn't dismiss it just yet.  I have concerns about some of the counter-moves I'm hearing to address it post-resolution.  If an opponent cracks a Lotus, a Sol Ring, a Brainstorm and then throws out 8 Goblin tokens with ample cards still in hand, then passes the turn, unless I'm playing Storm combo (where I outright won't care), having to tutor up Echoing Truth (if I even run it) or Balance ASAP (or tutor up Burning Wish for Pyroclasm; Massacre's no good without opposing Plains/Tundras) isn't a comfortable position in which to begin the game.  I think 10 or 12 Goblin tokens could easily outrace a DSC.  Empty the Warrens has a notably more favorable mana cost than Tendrils (Lotus not required) and there's no pressure to make it lethal when resolved.  EtW for 4 tokens, 6 tokens, 8 tokens, 10 tokens, etc. would be the correct play from time to time given the circumstances.

The shock factor alone would swing a lot of game 1's also, with a Goblin nightmare walking all over a True Believer and his Meddling Mage buddy naming "Tinker."  Drain mirrors would also be warped.  Go ahead, Tinker up your Titan... now take 11.  En garde!   

That given, like dicemanx touched upon, this doesn't strike me as a card that can just be thrown into a Gifts skeleton.  It calls for something more specifically tailored to iron out its strengths.  Alt-kill in Belcher or Egg Tendrils maybe.  There's only a slim chance it would pan out, but it's worth noting there might be a "sacrifice a creature: do X" that makes it worthwhile, like Altar of Dementia but something more synergic overall.

My sum: No obvious use for it right now in any existing major archetype but a good idea to keep on the back burner.  File it with those Suppression Fields which will one day return to haunt us all.

-BPK

[lordmayhem]

Perhaps this could find a place with Food Chain or Siege Gang Commander or Goblin Warchief for haste?

[policehq]

I wanted to test the idea of the card in a variation of Meandeck Tendrils. Here is my list:

4 City of Traitors
1 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Shadowblood Egg
4 Chromatic Star
4 Chromatic Sphere

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Frantic Search
4 Night's Whisper
3 Perilous Research
3 Repeal

1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Empty the Warrens

Without getting involved with too much discussion of Meandeck Tendrils (eg Land Grant vs. City of Traitors, etc.), I want to point out the pros and cons, as well as basic strategy.

The easiest way to learn Meandeck Tendrils (with Land Grant) is that you keep practicing without mulliganing. The idea is that your hand is seven spells: you need to find two more, BB2, and a Tendrils. Then you win the game.

With this deck, you have an opening hand of 5-7 spells which generally produce the mana required to play Empty the Warrens for 10 1/1 Goblin tokens.

5 Goldfishes for the deck:
1 turn 1 Empty the Warrens with 5 storm (turn 3 win).
1 turn 2 Empty the Warrens with 8 storm (turn 4 win).
1 turn 1 Empty the Warrens with 8 storm (turn 3 win).
1 turn 1 Empty the Warrens with 5 storm (turn 3 win).
1 turn 1 Empty the Warrens with 11 storm (turn 2 win).

I think the times that I was <10 storm count made up for the delay in winning. Winning on turn 3 > fizzling turn 1.

However, I often found that the R3 casting cost was often less convenient than Tendrils' BB2. All of the mana accelerants point to Tendrils of Agony.

Still, it is a very easy play to accumulate three mana, Shadowblood Egg, Dark Ritual, Empty the Warrens with 5/6 storm.

I'm quite positive this isn't the optimal decklist for Empty the Warrens, perhaps not even the best skeleton. Still, I think there's something out there for it.

Pyroclasm, Massacre, and Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast are easy to fit into the sideboard to combat the hate listed thus far (except Trickbind, but you could include Duress).

If someone were to find the optimal decklist for producing 5 storm turn 1 for Empty the Warrens, I am quite positive it would be a competitive deck, especially if it contained Duress/Pyroblast and maybe Burning Wish for Pyroclasm/Massacre.

Playing a couple of live games, I noticed that the deck is pretty resilient to graveyard hate and Null Rod, which is saying something for combo.

I hope this helps to break a decent new card.

-hq

[Nomad]

1)  Ubastax has no tutors for anything that can win against multiple little goblins.

There's always Ensnaring Bridge, but you have to remember to weld it in...

[Evenpence]

1)  Ubastax has no tutors for anything that can win against multiple little goblins.

There's always Ensnaring Bridge, but you have to remember to weld it in...

Haha Simon.  Just be glad I was playing another match at the time and wasn't thinking straight, else you wouldn't have that half-mox. 

That's SB, and it's conditional.  I mean, I suppose I could start playing something incredibly janky like Caltrops, but I really don't want to have to play horrible cards in my SB for a Time Spiral common. 

[zeus-online]

The suggested list has no draw-engine...People will probably point out the lack of a draw engine in MDG - BUT that deck has 4 Gifts this got....1 FoF 1 Ancestral, thats it. And to be honest, i find the kill to be alot easier to answer.

1) You can answer it afterwards, where as with ToA you can't answer anything after getting blown down to 0 life and a game loss.

2) Creature hate is commonly played in SB's against fish, as others have mentioned.

Just my 2cents.

/Zeus

[desolutionist]

The suggested list has no draw-engine...People will probably point out the lack of a draw engine in MDG - BUT that deck has 4 Gifts this got....1 FoF 1 Ancestral, thats it.

The list isn't an acurate representation of a deck seeking to abuse Warrens.  If you have a better list, then share it.

You can answer it afterwards, where as with ToA you can't answer anything after getting blown down to 0 life and a game loss.

EtW isn't replacing ToA; they both fill completely different roles.  In 9-storm.dec I want ToA.  In 4-storm.dec I want EtW.

Creature hate is commonly played in SB's against fish, as others have mentioned.

very insightful.

We've been exploring possibilities to invalidate Pyroclasm and Massacre.  The consensus seems to be that EtW will probably only see play in 1 game during the matches against Gifts and Long.  (The only decks that really use Pyroclasm or Massacre)

But then again almost every deck plays multiple bounce spells and the other decks play Welders...  Colossus still manages to dominate.

[zeus-online]

It might be useful as an additional win condition, but i really don't see it being better then ToA or DSC.

/Zeus

[brianpk80]

You can answer it afterwards, where as with ToA you can't answer anything after getting blown down to 0 life and a game loss.

Definitely.  Tendrils of Agony is bar none the best kill culmination in the format.  Its uncounterability is what it makes such an excellent choice.  I don't think many people would be playing Long without such a grand kill condition.  Otherwise players would just sit around watching you go off and then Misdirect/Force of Will the Stroke of Genius which was the hallmark of older combo kills.

That given, this does spring into a further example why an AEther Vial @ 2 is one of the most powerful counter-utensils available in the format right now.  Barring Trickbind, Stifle and Gilded Light, the latter two which can be countered, Vial + True Believer is the only way to completely negate Tendrils of Agony.  You won't always be lucky enough to have the right combo of cards in hand and a developed Vial, but when you have it, you win.  With Tendrils on the stack, there is no real occasion to Massacre (sorcery) or tutor (sorcery) for bounce, especially when Tendrils usually signals the end of the chain and not much mana/cards at disposal.  It's almost impossible to lose a storm match-up with Vial @ 2 + True Believer.

We've been exploring possibilities to invalidate Pyroclasm and Massacre.  The consensus seems to be that EtW will probably only see play in 1 game during the matches against Gifts and Long.  (The only decks that really use Pyroclasm or Massacre)

Massacre is only a major problem if you're running Tundras, which it appears you wouldn't be.  If an opponent wants to blow their Lotus, a Ritual, and/or a tutor on a 2BB defense spell, so be it.   

The more I think about it, the more it looks like this card has some serious abusive applications in Vintage now.  It's going to take a really specialized deck skeleton to exploit it correctly, but its effect is nothing to scoff at.

Good find,

-Brian

[desolutionist]

Massacre is only a major problem if you're running Tundras, which it appears you wouldn't be.  If an opponent wants to blow their Lotus, a Ritual, and/or a tutor on a 2BB defense spell, so be it.

 

I guess I'm used to associating Massacre with creatures that I assumed it was a problem subconsciously.

It's going to take a really specialized deck skeleton to exploit it correctly

I agree.  Ameliorating the deck that I suggested wouldn't even touch the potential potency that this card is capable of generating.  I'm not quite sure how to abuse it, but at least we identified why it can be abused.

Brian, thanks for the approbation.

[zulander]

How about some red/white with eggs second sunrise, and mass hysteria?

[ashiXIII]

How about some red/white with eggs second sunrise, and mass hysteria?

You're trying to build a really bad combo deck out of this. No, I think it wants to be more control-oriented. I'd imagine it would want Force of Wills and at least one other disruption (IE: Duress, Drain, Leak, etc.) spell to protect this win condition, since it isn't immediate. The deck also wants to support Time Walk, and probably Burning Wish. I think the list is fairly close to current Gifts lists, but much more specialized.

[brianpk80]

Perhaps this could find a place with Food Chain or Siege Gang Commander or Goblin Warchief for haste?

Definitely.  The applications for this thing are limited only by imagination.  An uncounterable legion of Goblins that can easily come down in the early game is amenable to many different frameworks. 

That leads to another point.  I think the storm mechanic is pretty inherently broken in most formats and has actually done more harm to the game than good.  To say that Tendrils of Agony and Mind's Desire are over the top in Vintage would be an understatement.  Empty the Warrens looks like it may one day find itself in that league as well.  Brain Freeze is busted in half in Legacy Solidarity and Dragonstorm is getting there in Standard.  The end result is a swarm of masturbatory decks that ends up derailing the sportsmanlike engagement factors that make Magic such a worthwhile hobby and game.  Imagine a tennis match where only one player had mobility while the other stood there paralyzed the entire time.  Sure, some players get a boost out of playing Magic: The Solitaire but diminishing the game's interactivity doesn't seem wise or preferable as a whole. 

The most controversy-free way of dealing with this would be to print explicit strategy hosers.  Restriction and banning should be last resorts. If Wizards is open to letting storm run wild in its cash cow (Type 2), they must have something up their sleeves in Planar Chaos or Future Sight (the next expansions) to bridle it.  Children of Korlis is a good start but it only addresses Tendrils.  Even then, it can be played around.  I wouldn't be surprised to see (a really well-needed) Arcane Laboratory on a 1/1 for W in the near future or something comparable.

-BPK   

[dicemanx]

To say that Tendrils of Agony and Mind's Desire are over the top in Vintage would be an understatement.

Just out of curiosity, why do you say this? ToA/Storm decks do not dominate this format, they aren't the most popular decks in most metas, and many strong players shy away from Storm based archetypes (typically gravitating towards Drain archetypes, because interactive decks that are flexible and least susceptible to hate cards are usually the best choices when trying to maximize differences in playskill). To say that ToA is "inherently broken" isn't something that has any particular relevance or consequence in a format where the same could be said about half of the cards.

It's the same argument that we periodically hear about YWill - Will itself is deemed to be "broken" because of the strategy that a Will deck is trying to execute - when Will resolves people will typically point and say "look, that single card is too powerful!", when in fact the actual execution (casting of the Will) is the culmination of a strategy that has its own respective vulnerabilities and weaknesses which prevent it from dominating the format.