Transitional Sideboard: A two for one Deck Discussion.

[wethepeople]

Lately I have been working on a slightly different deck idea, that has been done before, just not exactly like I chose to.  I am starting this thread to gain feedback on where I should go with the deck, there is no final list created just yet.

Introduction:

The sideboard USUALLY consists of metagame hate, or additional cards to help the deck play properly in some specific matchups. I however chose to build my list differently, using the sideboard in a way that it wasn't originally intended to be used as. I am sure many of you know where I am getting at, if not, I will continue.

A "transitional sideboard" is a term occasionally used in Magic where one particular deck is changed into a very different deck post board, and that is what I have been trying to take advantage of lately.

Metagame

In my metagame, there is A LOT of Fish, it's kind of ridiculous if you think about it. However, I really shouldn't be one to complain due to the fact that I play it often myself. For a while I tested with several different Oath of Druids builds because I knew that they have such a strong matchup versus the common Fish deck. I myself, along with other local players have begun to play the deck so long that most of which playing aggro have changed there list, and sideboard to beat Oath.

I have seen players running five or six slots in their board completely dedicated to Oath of Druids, the rest of which is for other Aggro, Stax, and so forth. Whenever I try playing game two I am quickly stormed with numerous Seal of Cleansings and other hate. This is why I have been trying to find a way to play Oath, without really playing Oath.

I am sure that last statement kind of lost you, but I would like to get back to the term "transitional sideboard". I am trying to perfect a deck that game one will be something entirely different than game two. This is where I think I need your help.

I have been trying to find the right deck to play game one that is limited to a small number of cards that makes it that particular deck AND has a fairly good Fish matchup. I know these are tough guidelines to follow, however I am sure it can be done.

The common Oath Engine has just a small number of cards. Most of which go like this:

4x Oath of Druids
4x Forbidden Orchard
2-3x Creatures (Angels, SSS, etc.)

The rest of the list is often times just a large Draw/Tutor Engine that allows you to get the Combo on the board. So what exactly I am trying to do is run the normal Oath engine, just in my sideboard, not maindeck. The rest of my deck will probably consist of cards that would work in both Oath of Druids and Deck X (let's just call it that for now, shall we?)

Deck X, the list I will be playing game one, will consists of 10-12 cards that can easily be sided out for the Oath engine. One example is this particular list I have tried working with:

4x Juggernaut
4x Dark Confidant
4x Mishra's Workshop

This list was obviously a Workshop-based list. Game two, I would side out Workshops for Orchards. Juggernauts for Oaths. And lastly, Dark Confidants for two Simic Sky Swallowers, a Tropical Island, and one other card that would help improve that matchup.

In order for this plan to work out properly, I had to take out all the creatures, if I did not, I would end up Oathing in a Dark Confidant or some other unwanted creature.

The last three or four slots consisted of one to two cards to help improve matchups in most other decks common to my metagame, just as a normal sideboard would do. These slots usually consisted of:

1 for Fish, which was mainly UW/x, so Massacre seems like a strong spell for this slot
1-2 Graveyard control for Combo, Gifts, Ichorid, etc. Tormod's Crypt currently seems like the best choice.
1 Artifact removal- Null Rod or Oxidize were usually it.


So my sideboard currently looks something like this:

Sideboard:
4x Oath of Druids
4x Forbidden Orchard
2x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Tropical Island
1x Massacre
2x Tormod's Crypt

The single Massacre and Tormod's Crypts arent something I really rely on. They are usually just something that I can use to be sure I dont have useless creatures or Workshops getting in the way. The Tropical Island is for similar reasons, but also to make sure that I am able to obtain green mana without having to get a Forbidden Orchard.

I think it is about time that I get to the actual deck.

Deck X: (X meaning I have not decided on what it is yet)

I have made a few attempts at decks taking advantage of a transitional sideboard, all of which have done fairly well. I am trying to find a Fish list that is able to play with a low amount of creatures, and is still good with a main board that plays unlike your average Fish deck. It doesnt need have any green either, the sideboard has got that covered. This deck must do well versus Fish. I really hate having to design a deck around one of the Timmys of our format, but since my metagame is just so corrupted, I think I have to. There is of course the common appearance of Gifts, Combo, and Stax, but not nearly as much as Aggro.

As I mentioned above, I have a Workshop deck that turns into Oath game two. The whole purpose of this list was to trick my opponent into bringing in artifact hate such as Energy Flux and what not while I turn my deck into Oath. This list is hard to do because the two decks are just so different, but I have tried putting together a more Control Workshop list that turns into an Oath list with a few unecessary lock-pieces such as Crucibal of Worlds, Chalice of the Void, and 3Sphere.

Having a few artifact lock pieces was not bad because I could always use Thirst for Knowledge to throw them away, I just did not always like drawing them without acess to Mishra's Workshop. Crucibal of Worlds always came to me as a strong card in most situations because I run four Wastelands maindeck, and it also allowed me to stabilize my mana base when needed. One other advantage to playing the Workshop list is that I can still run Tinker and Darksteel Colossus, then game two when I transition to Oath, they still work well.

In many games from my testing, my opponent has quickly dropped a Meddling Mage on something like Juggernaut, thinking that I will no longer have a strong kill. Or in other situations they will bring in Energy Flux or additional Katakis, while I sit back and silently laugh at their unsuccessful gameplan.

Other:

Keep in mind that the idea of this deck is to win game one, then trick them by making them think you are playing the same deck game two, when really, you are not. Incase however that this plan fails, I lose game two, and they know my plan. I like to mess with them by dumping my entire sideboard into my deck, so they think that I am switching back to Fish/Workshop/whatever, then simply remove each of those cards. I believe this trick was explained in a SCG article.

Anyway, I am asking that people give me some feedback on which deck I should play game one, and if I have mentioned any ideas that have seemed relatively good to you, please tell me. The whole purpose of me starting this thread was to help get an idea on where others feel it should go. If the whole idea of one deck turning into Oath of Druids seems stupid to you, please speak up, because I do not want to try and work with an idea that was dead in the first place.

I will of course return with additional lists that I have found sucess with, as well as try new ideas that my fellow Mana Drainers reccomend. Thank you. 

//wtp.

[dicemanx]

I can offer two suggestions for deck X.

I have been playing GiftsX for about half a year with a significant measure of success (4th at SCG Rochester in its only SCG appearance, and plenty of local t8s). GiftsX is a TfK-based Gifts deck that runs the transformational Oath SB:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=15240

The list has since been updated to include 2 Simic Sky Swallowers over 1 Razia and 1 Blessing. I also vary my Pithing Needles with an extra Duress and Tormod's Crypts, depending on the meta.

Another option is to run WGDX:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=17462

With this transformational SB:

4 Orchard
4 Oath
3 Simic Sky Swallower
3 Bounce spells/meta slots
1 Stroke of Genius


WGD is even more suitable for transformational Oath SB strategies, because it can actually utilize its Bazaars and animates to get Sky Swallowers into play in case an SS is drawn or an Oath is dealt with.

[Roxas]

Why would the Dragon transformational sideboard run Orchards? Did you just forget to include Oaths, or am I missing something?

[dicemanx]

Oops! I'll edit my first post - forgot to add a pretty important SB card .

[nataz]

Another idea for a SB that doesn't take up much space is to run mask and dreadnaughts. This may not be such a good idea in a workshop based deck, but other then that it is fairly similar to an oath SB.

[That0neguy]

The problem with a mask/drednoughts, Shop Aggro, and dragon as deck X is that a common card that UW fis will likley side is seal of cleansing.  They may dodge some of the hate like with dragon their GY hate will be almost dead (unless you have to go animate SSS plan).  And Eflux will be dead against the other 2, but they will still most likley have the seals.  If possible I would atempt to find a deck that also plays around this constraint, although its getting pretty difficult, pretty fast.

[dicemanx]

Another idea for a SB that doesn't take up much space is to run mask and dreadnaughts. This may not be such a good idea in a workshop based deck, but other then that it is fairly similar to an oath SB.

Indeed. This has already been successfully tried in WGD and Aggro-Shop (although as a hybrid plan, not SB, in a Shop deck).

The problem with a mask/drednoughts, Shop Aggro, and dragon as deck X is that a common card that UW fis will likley side is seal of cleansing.  They may dodge some of the hate like with dragon their GY hate will be almost dead (unless you have to go animate SSS plan).

It's only a problem if they play Seal of Cleansing in the first place in the SB (not all Fish do). Even with Seals, its all the more reason to either try some transformational SB (even if its susceptible to Seals).

[That0neguy]

The point that I was trying to make with the seal of cleansing, was that both of the deck X options, and the Oath Sideboard, are effected by the seal of cleansing equally.  It seems to me that most UW fish decks run seal of cleansing.  Although, If the meta does not have a lot of oath or stax to begin with, you might get lucky.  And like I said as long as its not the only thing they bring in, the other cards that they bring in will probably still be dead.

[policehq]

Would Forbidden Orchards be absolutely necessary for the Oath plan? Would the sideboard be too narrow if you chose to bring in Oath + fatties against creature-based decks?

-hq

[Duncan]

I once played a tournament with a Oath deck with a transitional Gro sideboard. I don't know if those two are the best to combine, but it was relatively easy. Against a fish player i won the first game, transformed into gro and bashed him game two as he had useless seal of cleansings and meddling mages naming oath.

I think oath is the best strategy to put into a transitional  deck.

[wethepeople]

I once played a tournament with a Oath deck with a transitional Gro sideboard. I don't know if those two are the best to combine, but it was relatively easy. Against a fish player i won the first game, transformed into gro and bashed him game two as he had useless seal of cleansings and meddling mages naming oath.

I think oath is the best strategy to put into a transitional  deck.

I am glad that so many of you were able to respond so quickly, nine or so posts within the first 24 hours. I also thought of the Oath/Gro thing, just game one it would play Gro, then transform into Oath of Druids. The problem I see with playing Gro is that there are so few creatures that the deck relies on to win, and almost all UW Fish variants run four Swords to Plowshares main board. Playing Oath game one does seem like a good idea, only if you run Simic Sky Swallowers though, because Fish players tend to side out their creature removal because they are a dead card versus this type of creature base.

I looked at LSD/Cruise's Gro list in the Improvement forum and took quite a bit of consideration into trying to make it transitional due to the fact it runs just 7 creatures, and so much disruption that is strong in both Oath of Druids, and Gro.

I will try the Worldgorger Dragon list that DicemanX posted, it certainly would be unexpected in a meta such as my own. I also saw the problem that when Fish players bring in enchantment hate, it would be playable versus Oath and WGDx, even if they did not plan for that to work out. One last question of mine regarding the deck is involving a few specific matchups, most commonly FISH , Gifts, and less-commonly CS, Combo, and Workshop-based decks.

In the Fish matchup I am afraid that four Stifles, four Swords to Plowshares, and Seal of Cleansing may have an advantage of WGD, so that particular list may  not be an option in such a Fished out metagame.

Would Forbidden Orchards be absolutely necessary for the Oath plan? Would the sideboard be too narrow if you chose to bring in Oath + fatties against creature-based decks?

It may be possible. I do not know, I personally have never tried it. This may be, because if I am playing Oath by surprise, it is common for my opponent to lay a Meddling Mage, Bob, or some other random critter within the first turn or so.

It seems to me that most UW fish decks run seal of cleansing.  Although, If the meta does not have a lot of oath or stax to begin with, you might get lucky

Unfortunately, most Fish players do have Seal of Cleansing, Disenchant, etc in their board. This is because so many people start playing Oath for a short while because it practically hosed Fish, and everyone began to tweak out and run an ass-load of Enchantment removal. This is the whole reason why I chose to play Oath "by surprise."

Thank you for such great amounts of feedback. Keep it coming. I will return after I have tested a few different lists I have had on my mind, as well as the two Diceman suggested.

[dicemanx]

Would Forbidden Orchards be absolutely necessary for the Oath plan? Would the sideboard be too narrow if you chose to bring in Oath + fatties against creature-based decks?

-hq

Orchards in the SB are not absolutely necessary, but you still have to consider some factors:

1. Playing enough green sources - in WGD and Gifts I play 1 Tropical and 5 fetches main, but I still need additional G sources to cast Oath more consistently.

2. The Oath plan can be a very good option against Stax/Uba Stax, and that requires Orchard to work in case they don't cast a Welder. You also might want to retain the option of bringing in the oath plan against non creature decks if they are bringing in heavy graveyard hate against you.

3. If people play Oath in the meta, the Orchards are solid SB cards without even bringing in the Oath plan.

[Fall-Titan]

It seems to me, that if fish is as abundant in your metagame as you describe, why would you not run Oath as your Deck X and then sideboard into a different strategy. This allows you to almost always win game 1 versus fish, then as they bring in oath hate, and sideboard out swords because they know your running simic sky swallower, you bring in your gro plan. This signifigantly increases your chances of winning with gro and even if you lose, you still have the mental advantage of sideboarding into oath again or tricking them and remaining with the same gro list... and effectively giving yourself a chance at winning game 3. The fact that both lists are primarily the same colors, and are hurt by complete opposite spectrums of hate, seems like the best option. Regardless of whether you choose to run oath or gro as your game 1 list, I personally think this is your best option for transforming.

[Duncan]

My sideboard looked something like this:
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Meddling Mage
3 Werebear
3 Energy Flux (or any other meta slot)
1 Land (or another meta slot)

Exchanging the 4 oath, 4 orchard, 2 angel, 1 blessing for the 11 gro guys. Since gro is a deck which is able to run less lands the loss of 4 orchards without replacement is not bad.

Note also that i ran an UWG oath deck with maindeck swords, which i think is usefull in your meta, because it has a better fish matchup than UBG or UB oath, enlarging your possibility of winning game 1. To optimize the gro plan, you can change your maindeck a little bit, adding more cantrips or misdirections and playing without drain.

[Evol daN]

I read many of the responses to your original post. And I must agree with you, that the transformation into Dragon would be a great error.

SoC + STP > Oath… and… SoC + STP + Stifle > Dragon.dek

The Gifts idea presented by Dicemanx is far more solid. However the Oath build that you play determines the viability of this game plan. I have seen Oath builds which are not centered on the Drain platform… in fact they are not even close to Drain territory. This is an Oath list my friend has had some luck with, and IMO is easily adaptable.

3 x C.O.B.
3 x Gemstone
4 x Forbidden Orchards
3 x P. Delta
1 x bayou
1 x Underground

5 moxen
1 sol ring
1 Black lotus
1 lotus petal
1 mana crypt

4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
4 M Drains
--3 Thirst for Knowledge
--4 Oath
2 Gifts Ungiven
--2 Choke
1 Mystical tutor
1 ancestral recall
1 vampiric tutor
1 Timewalk
1 Demonic
1 Regrowth
1 Burning Wish
1 Will
1 Tinker
1 Rushing River
1 DSC
--1 Akroma
--1 Gaea’s Blessing

SB: 2 tormods
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Recoup
SB: 1 ToA
SB: 1 REB
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Merchant Scroll
SB: 1 Gifts Ungiven
SB: 1 Volcanic Island
SB: 1 Island
SB: 1 Memory Jar
SB: 1 Mana Vault

(my recommended SB outs are marked --)

I agree with Fall Titan to a point, by the sound of your post you are enjoying success in the game 1 with Oath, and it is only after the board that you are facing piles and piles of hate. I question (simply because I do not know) why you would want to side in the Oath rather than playing Oath main. After all, would it not be better to win the favorable match then transform, while they bring in ineffective cards? The SB effect would be the result either way, but it seems that you have a close knit group where people know each other, and know what to expect from each other. Changing your maindeck would immediately arouse suspicion, as this post also does.

But Gro VS Fish? IMO you would be trading down, BIG TIME!!!!
Their creatures are better matched to the rest of the deck's clock and their clock is faster. the moral is IMO go combo, or heavier control

Hope this helped!

[wethepeople]

My sideboard looked something like this:
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Meddling Mage
3 Werebear
3 Energy Flux (or any other meta slot)
1 Land (or another meta slot)

Exchanging the 4 oath, 4 orchard, 2 angel, 1 blessing for the 11 gro guys. Since gro is a deck which is able to run less lands the loss of 4 orchards without replacement is not bad.

Note also that i ran an UWG oath deck with maindeck swords, which i think is usefull in your meta, because it has a better fish matchup than UBG or UB oath, enlarging your possibility of winning game 1. To optimize the gro plan, you can change your maindeck a little bit, adding more cantrips or misdirections and playing without drain.

In your sideboard list, it looks a little more like Birdshit with Dryads rather than Gro, unless that is your maindeck is full of cantrips that will really load up on counters. I am going to put together a Hybrid list, similar to LSD/Cruise's (using Grunts) because it has so few creatures, making the transition from Oath far more easy. After I have tested it a bit, I will post what I've got on here for comments/critizm.

I see strength the Transformation Gifts lists, both the ones posted by Diceman and Evol daN. I am afraid however that Gifts hasnt been doing as well lately in a Fish heavy environment. Especially for a fairly unexperienced Gifts player, such as myself.

I have found that the players making top eight with Gifts Ungiven decks have been doing so well not necessarily because of their deck, but because of their playskill. And if you take a look at several tournament reports throughout the country, you will see that the better players have been doing so well with the same exact deck that others scrubbed out with in the same tournament simply because they tried to pick up the deck in such short time. So what I am saying is, I am no Gifts Ungiven player, and I don't need Gifts to allow me to do well. I don't feel like going over this again, but, I personally don't like the deck itself much at all, and I have no interest in playing it.

If anyone else decides to test a Transitional deck of any sort, please reply with feedback on your list you tested and how it played out. I'd like to discuss all of these different ideas on this little piece of sideboard tech.

Thank you.

[LSD/Cruise]

Gro is usually a land light deck. Game 2, you can easily side out Forbidden Orchards and Oaths, and bring in the Gro plan. Using Oath as a win condition doesnt really change the way the deck is played, as it uses the same disruption for the same purposes, it's really only the effectiveness of that win condtion. Luckily, both Gro and Oath are viable plans against Aggro, and Combo, as they both can win very fast. Versus Drain, you may want to side out the Oath plan and use the Gro plan as the most powerful tool against them is the Merchant Scroll/Jotun Grunt chain, which gives you all the fuel you need.

I was thinking something like this....


// Mana 24
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
4 Forbidden Orcahrd
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra


// Creatures 2
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Simic Sky Swallower


// Spells 35
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Gush
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
1 Wipe Away
4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Oath of Druids
3 Misdirection
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Null Rod
3 Stifle


// Sideboard 15
1 Simic Sky Swallower
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Quirion Dryad
3 Trygon Predator
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Stifle


I wanted to fit Shadow of Doubt in here... I suppose another day.

[joe]

If you want a transformational sideboard, you need to side in something that has a different game plan and is not hit by the hate they are bringing in.  If it has a different game plan, it means they will be taking out cards they need to fight against the one you switch to.  If it is not hit by the splash hate, this means that the cards they bring in will not be helpful to them. 

It seems to me, that if fish is as abundant in your metagame as you describe, why would you not run Oath as your Deck X and then sideboard into a different strategy.

QFT.  Start with oath and switch to something else.

If you're trying to beat fish specifically, I think that switching to Gro or Dragon would not be the best way to go.  Gro is still a creature based strategy, so they will probably keep their STPs and possibly bring in even more creature hate.  Dragon, although a different strategy, is very much hurt by both creature removal and enchantment removal, so their sideboard cards will still work very well.

I would suggest playing an oath list similar to GWSOath (linl)(not the most current list, but a decent starting point), then switching to something like storm combo where you SB something like:
-4 Oath
-4 Waste
-2 Angels
-1 Blessing
-?? Leak

+4 Dark Rit
+?? Cabal Rit
+1 YagWin
+1 Necro
+1 Tendrils
+?? other stuff

This way, they would sideboard creature/enchantment hate, be naming the wrong thing with meddling mage, and have a grip of dead cards against you.  With fish's slow clock you should be able to sculpt a hand to win through some Force/Stifle with your own forces and duress. 

I think there might be an article/thread about this somewhere on starcity or here on TMD. 

Anyway, hope that helps.  Goodluck.  Transformational sideboards kick ass.

-Joe

[wethepeople]

If you're trying to beat fish specifically, I think that switching to Gro or Dragon would not be the best way to go.  Gro is still a creature based strategy, so they will probably keep their STPs and possibly bring in even more creature hate.

From my testing versus Fish using Oath game one, it is common for that player to actually side out their Swords to Plowshares, because when using Simic Sky Swallower as your kill, they are one of the worst cards you can draw. The empty slots that were onces taken by STPs are now something like Seal of Cleansing, which is exactly what I want to trick my opponent into doing, because they do virtually nothing at all once I have transitioned into Gro.

EDIT: Instead of creating a double-post, I decided to just edit in my info from testing the Oath/Gro build. I liked Oath game one alot, simply because it kicked Fish in the nuts. However, game two I was begining to feel like a was playing a very poor deck, probably because it is a poor hybrid list, but whatever it was, it didnt do as well every game as I though. I am going to continue to find another list that also is strong game two, if anyone thinks of anything, I would greatly appreciate it.