Vintage Zoo

[forests failed you]

This is a list I have been toying around with lately.  It has tested fairly well, and might be a worthwhile budget deck for players to try out.  I have been recomending it to players who are trying to transition from newer formats into vintage. 

Enjoy.  Comment.  Criticize.  Et Cetera

Vintage Zoo
a deck by Brian DeMars

2 Sphere of Resistence
2 Null Rod
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Tangle Wire
2 Root Maze

4 Kird Ape
4 Savannah Lions
2 Issamaru Hound of Konda
2 Grim Lavamanecer
4 Jotun Grunt

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Shrapnel Blast
2 Fireblast

2 Orim's Chant

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Wooded Foothills

4 Plateau
3 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains

1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus

Sideboard

3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Lightning Helix
1 Root Maze
1 Rey of Revelation
2 Shattering Spree
2 Kataki
1 Disenchant
1 Orim's Chant
2 Rule of Law


Some explaination of card choices:

The deck runs on the basic premise that fish does:  Disrupt an opponent in the early game while getting hits in with two power creatures.  However, this deck does more damage faster than Fish can, as well as has better guys for fighting in an aggro mirror.  All of the drops in the deck are either on board disruption or two power creatures that cost one. 

The disruption package in this deck relies around tying up thier mana.  Sphere or Resistence, Tangle Wire, Wasteland, Strip Mine, Root Maze, and Null Rod all are good ways to keep an opposing deck (especially mana hungry decks) from executing their game plans.

The deck also has cards that deal a lot of damage for finishers.  Shrapnal Blast, Lightnight Bolt, and Fireblast, are all good ways to kill an opponent once you put them into the danger zone of between 6-10 life with creature beats.

You may have noticed that there are a lot of two ofs, rather than four ofs.  When I build decks I prefer to look at a curve and play cards that fit my game plan that way.  It often allows you to have a more diverse threat base and keeps you from drawing cards that you don't want in multiples.  For instance drawing two Null Rods in the same game with this deck would be bad, but a Rod and a Sphere is just fine.

The Orim's Chants have been pretty great.  THey disrupt combo decks, and have been good in a race against Oath or Tiner Colossos.  Tinker Colossos has been a problem if it comes down really fast, but it is possible to race with Chants, guys, and Burn spells.  Red blast out of the board really helps against control decks.  As do Rey of Revelation against Oath.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

You have to go big or cut it all. I know drawing multiples sucks, but you need to draw it when you need it. Playing a card as a two of, especially Null Rod is super risky. Also you will have a good chance of running into a FoW with one.

Chalice for one is game over as well I see, maybe Jotun Grunt can replace the Jackyl Pups?

[forests failed you]

Jotun Grunt is actually a really good suggestion. 

The problem I found was that drawing multiple rods did very little in progressing my game plan.  Also, if  they counter your Rod, you still have any number of other annoying cards they still need to deal with.  Sphere, Chalice, Wire, Root Maze.

Not to mention that the deck does put an opponent on  a pretty fast clock, and you almost can't lose to fish ever.

The most difficult match ups by far are Oath and Gifts; and both get much better post board.  I'm going to edit the initial list, Grunt is a great include.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Jungle Lion in place of Isamaru would let you fetch for W turn 1 less regularly.  Would that stabilize your mana base enough to warrant its inclusion?

Choke and Tangle Wire do fairly similar things though scale oppositely with time.  Any thoughts on the place of Choke in this deck?

How does Reckless Abandon compare with Fireblast?  My thought is that a countered Reckless Abandon is less likely to be crippling in the mid game.

This last one is a bit of a stretch, but, might Granger Guildmage be superior to Grim Lavamancer due to your use of Jotun Grunts?

[forests failed you]

These are all very good ideas.

I think that Tangle Wire is also a better card in the maindeck than Choke, just because it is less likely to be dead in some match ups.  Tangle Wire is also one way to beat a quick TInker Colossos.  The deck is capable of racing with a wire down. 

Fireblast was really good in testing, just because of the ammount of damage it deals.  However, it is a possiblity.  When I was building the deck I essential approached it from this perspective.

Disruption
Guys
Burn (finishers)
Mana

And built for a curve in each color.  Jungle lion seems like it could also be a fine card, but I ultmately cut if from the deck because I didn't want as many Green cards.  However, it could very easily change over to more of a RG beats stratagy with a Splash of white for more guys and Chant.  Chant is really important to the maindeck, since most of the cards that beat you are Sorceries, Chant serves as a counterspell for your fireblasts and shrapnal blasts, as well as a time walk.

Feel free to post revised lists in this forum.  I actually like playing this deck quite a bit, and I would be very interested to see what other people come up with.

[Pathian]

If you were to choose a green 2 power 1 drop, I would probably look at Skyshroud Elite before Jungle Lion since it's nearly always a 2/3

[Dxfiler]

No Gorilla Shaman in this list makes my head hurt.

I don't think sphere of resistance is worth it maindeck.  Shrapnel blast is meh.  I agree with Elias on the weird numbers.  Go big or go home on the good cards.  Anything less than 3 null rod seems wrong.  Basically, the deck has no card draw and has to rely on redudancy to get the job done.  Not crazy about the white, but it gives you Orim's chant so that's fine. 

If you're going white, you might as well have the best spot removal card of all time.  Swords doesn't have to be main, but I would think its mandatory in the sideboard.  Seems better than lightning helix when against fish.  You don't want to lose to opposing grunts.  I do like helix, for the record.  Just not over plow.

Here's my untested list:

3 Chalice of the Void

3 Isamaru
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Gorilla Shaman
3 Orim's Chant
3 Swords to Plowshares/Rootmaze
4 Kird Ape
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Savannah Lions

3 Jotun grunt
3 Kataki

1 Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

2 Fireblast

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Wooded Foothills

4 Plateau
3 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains

(your lands seems perfect)

Sideboard-
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Lightning Helix
3 Shattering Spree
3 Swords to Plowshares/Rootmaze (whatever you don't play maindeck)
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Nullrod
1 Seal of Cleansing

Rootmaze seems great in the deck, I just don't know if it's needed main.  I get very scared about having no maindeck way to deal with grunt and colossus.  I don't count fireblast as an effective way to deal with grunt.  You pretty much never want to be put in that scenario.  Plow is not exactly a perfect fit in the deck, as mentioned earlier, but I think its too good not to run main so I'd lean towards that.  Hidden Gibbons is a card I considered in the maze/plow spot, just because the card gives ridiculous tempo against 90% of expected opponents.  Sometimes it just sits around doing nothing until the opponent is ready to have their 'big turn,' so that's why im against it over plow.  I know it was more often than not phenomenal in GR beats, because drains were at an all time high.  this deck seems to have plenty of game against drains as is, so gibbons is probably not needed... just keep it in mind.

I basically just tuned your list to include more copies of good cards.  I agree with you that it could be a good T1 beginner deck.  Nice job on suggesting it.

- Dave Feinstein

[Tobi]

About the manabase:

4 Wooded Foothills

4 Plateau
3 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Plains

The single Plains makes no sense if you have no fetchland to get it. Have a look on how TMWA manages it's basic-land fetchability:

1x Mountain
3x Plateau
1x Badlands
1x Scrubland
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Flooded Strand

or

1x Mountain
4x Plateau
1x Plains
1x Badlands
1x Scrubland
3x Bloodstained Mire
3x Flooded Strand

So it's either a mix of fetchlands for Mountain and Plains or no basic Plains at all (or both  ).

On a side note:
Root Maze and Fetchlands may seem couterproductive, but in fact are not. Most of the time you will find yourself fetching first and then playing Root Maze, having a "normal" land next. Even if your next land is also a fetchland, it does not slow you down as much as it does slow you opponent, since your deck operates on one mana quite good.

On the inclusion of green:
If it is only for Kird Apes and Root Maze it may not be worth it. I love Kirds, but overall, green is too weak. It yould probably be better to stick to RW and replace Kirds with more Mancers and Vandals, or even Mishra's Factories.

[forests failed you]

In testing Shrapnel Blast was very strong.  Five to the dome for four mana was absolute insane.
I also like the idea of play Skyshroud Elite in the deck.


I tested a version last night with some of the suggested changes and it did run more smoothly.

GUYS (18)

4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Skyshroud Elite
2 Jungle Lion

3 Jotun Grunt
2 Kataki, Wars Wage

BURN (8)

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fireblast
2 Shrapnal Blast

DISRUPTION (12)

2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Null Rod
2 Root Maze
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Orim's Chant

WASTEEFFECTS (5)
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

NON STRIP MANA (17)

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl

4 Wooded Foothills

3 Plateau
3 Taigia
2 Savannah
1 Mountain

SIDEBOARD

3 REB
3 SPREE
2 REY OF REV
1 STP
2 HELIX
1 DISENCHANT
2 ORIMS CHANT
1 RULE OF LAW

I didn't test out any Shaman in the Maindeck, but it is possible that he would make a nice fit.  I would probably only want to play 2 though, since he is only one power and has no incentive for multiples in play at the same time.  It is possible that cutting the Kataki's for Shamen would be a nice fit, or cutting 2 Jungle Lion, or 1 Jungle Lion and 1 Lavamancer.

Thanks for the helpful suggestions!  Keep up the good work and good posts,  please!

[orgcandman]

Here are my thoughts on this, just because we've tested many of these cards for TMWA, and while I understand that this is not TMWA, it follows a very similar want for game progression.

Firstly, Fireblast is really terrible. Not only is it not good as a finisher, since it walks right into drain, but it sets you back, so that even if it ONLY walks into force / daze / some other counter, you're WAAAYYY behind on mana.

You have a small "Oh crap, tinker!" button. As in two swords. TMWA has 4 different approaches to tinker: 1 - Blast it via pyro main. 2 - swords the man. 3 - hide / seek. 4 - welder. You're stuck waiting until game two to have adequate blast backup.

Shrap blast is really bad here. Your only artifacts are cards you WANT to have kicking around on the board. This means that shrap blast will sit in your hand. And in this sort of deck, you don't want to be stuck with dead cards in hand. You want to be able to cast any spell you draw, and not have it negatively affect your board position. Shrap Blast situationally fits this, in that if your opponent goes for one of your artifacts, you can "counter" their spell by putting 5 to their dome. I understand its there as a finisher, but its a really weak finisher, unless your opponent has no cards in hand. Then, sure, it wins games.

I would suggest pyrostatic pillar rather than rule of law against combo. Pillar does something very well - Eat at their life total while they try to hit 10 spells. The amount of damage that a pillar does means that the combo deck HAS to go for the multiple small tendrils plan. However, most true combo decks are ill equipped to do this. They only run one tendrils, for efficiency reasons. This is why pillar is good. Their answers, their cards to find their answers, and their utility spells all get hit by pillar. Rule of law just says "Play the slow game until you blammo all over the face'

Not a fan of lightning helix. Two mana for +3 life isn't all that hot unless you're facing off against other aggro. However, the advantage you have against other aggro is your lightning bolts, and swords. Just make sure to clear the opposition, and you're golden.

One card in particular I'd like to talk about is magma jet. TMWA has a love-hate relationship with this card. We don't like that there are no really good draw engines for red, and so we're forced into filtering. However, Jet is NEVER dead, gets rid of bad draws, and fits the curve nicely. I'd really suggest testing it.

What does green really give you in this deck? Just root maze? Is it really as good as it used to be?

As far as matchups go, how is the TMWA matchup for this? My guess is that its not as good, as TMWA runs more efficient burn, and doesn't get hurt by a lot of your hate, AND runs a larger variety of utility creatures (plus I hear 2/2s, 3/3s, and 4/4s are pretty good).

[Implacable]

2-ofs (excluding legends) are just terrible in a deck with 0 card draw.  That's just the way it is, and I've tested Fish so much that the thought of playing it again, like I plan to do, makes me physically ill.  I strongly disagree with Orgcandman regarding Shrapnel, because I think it's one of the best finishers in the game if you can consistently cast it, which this deck can.  When building this deck, it should be recognized that each color gives you something that you absolutely need; white gives you Swords and Grunt, red gives you dudes, REBs, Pillars, and Shrapnel, and green gives you Maze (the flat-out best combo-hoser ever printed) and more dudes.  Accordingly, I propose the following list:

4 Kird Ape
4 Skyshroud Elite
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
1 Savannah Lions

4 Root Maze
3 Null Rod
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Shrapnel Blast
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Swords to Plowshares

4 LoMoxen
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Strip Mine
2 Forest
2 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Mountain
1 Plains

SB:
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Orim's Chant
3 Ronom Unicorn
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Pyrostatic Pillar

[diopter]

I just did a Gatherer search and Jungle Lion appears nowhere. Are we talking about Mtenda Lion?

[forests failed you]

Is Pillar really that good in a deck that plays exactly 0 spells that don't burn itself?

I would rather move that to the sideboard and replace it with something that helps you win, rather than is a combo hoser.

How do you guys feel about Rancor as a possible card for this deck?  I know, I know it screams newbaliscious, but it gets in there for a bunch of damage.

Also, Implacable, the last list you've posted cut Lightning Bolt.  Everytime I play with the deck I gain a bit more respect for this card, and am very happy that when I play somebody in an event who has this card that they are an idiot, have misbuilt their deck,  and don't know what they are doing.  



Perhaps replacing Pillars with Bolts would be acceptable?

Jungle Lion is from Portal.  It cost G and is a 2/1 Lion that can't block.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Is there a reason why you aren't using Artifact Mutation?  Making 11 1/1 dudes to attack past a DSC or nailing a Smokestack or Uba Mask at instant speed and getting dorks to tap/sacrifice seems really good.

[Methuselahn]

Is Pillar really that good in a deck that plays exactly 0 spells that don't burn itself?

When you're running Hide/Seek alongside Pillar, it's really not that bad.  Pillar is obviously insane vs. any sort of storm deck, having Seeked out Colossus first, you'd be all too happy to drop it vs. Long or Gifts.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

This reminds me of a zoo list I saw T8 at RIW a while back... Although he had black for the mighty Dark Confidant. What's your opinion on this? It seems like Zoo needs a card advantage engine to restock on burn and beats.

Four color Zoo... Such a bizarre concept. Yet at the same time, theoretically, it could handle just about anything... Especially if you get some Hide/ Seek action going. Just my two cents though...

Edit: Heres a list I bs'd together...

4 Dark Confidant
4 Kird Ape
4 Skyshroud Elite
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Gorilla Shaman

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Hide/Seek
3 Null Rod
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Swords to Plowshares

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
2 Badlands
2 Plateau
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

MB blows but welcome to Zoo... Can't do Pillar cause of Confidant, but SB is definitely an option. Are we no longer advocating MD REBs?

I dropped Root Maze to give myself a hopeful stability with the MB... Chalice ain't half bad though.

[Mith]

I'm just not so sure that Green has all that much to offer. Sure Kird Ape and Rootmaze are nice, but by switching to Black...you get MUCH better options. Hide/Seek is just too good, and Confidants keeps you pumping out threats. Here's what I've been messing around with in the B/R/W realm:

Mith's Dark Zoo Redux

4 Dark Confidant
4 Duress
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Lightning Bolt
4 StP
4 Savannah Lions
3 Kataki
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Null Rod
4 Hide/Seek

1 Lotus
3 on-color moxen
6 Fetch lands
3 Scrubland
3 Plateau
2 Badlands
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine

The curve is very decent, there's PLENTY of combo/artifact hate, and the deck has more than enough removal. I'm still messing around with the numbers in the deck, but so far I've been happy. The deck has faired very well against U/W fish as well

[Cthulhu1975]

@Mith: What does your sideboard look like? Must say that your MD looks interesting.

I've been playing RG beats a lot and this is my current list:


Maindeck

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Wild Mongrel
3 Goblin Welder

3 Hidden Guerillas
3 Hidden Gibbons
3 Hidden Herd
3 Artifact Mutation
4 Root Maze
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Tormod's Crypt

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby

4 Taiga
3 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
2 Forest
2 Mountain

Sideboard (constantly changing depending on meta)

4 Maze of Ith
4 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroclasm
3 Sudden Shock

Unfortunately the vintage scene is very small where I live so I don't get to test my deck(s) a lot 

[FlamingCloud]

This deck is really only budget for a player who plays type 2, legacy and extended.  A players that plays only vintage would find this deck extremely expensive 10 proxy.  G/R Fetches, Chants, Isamaru, Lions, Tiaga, Plateau, Savannah, etc.  Normally vintage players would have Blue fetches, FoWs, Oaths, Misdirections, Gifts Ungiven, Goblin Welders, Volcs, and Underground Seas in the same relative price range.  Personally I can do every major deck of the last two years 10 proxy, and I would be lucky if I could 25 proxy this.

Aside from that I nitpick I really like the deck, and it would be very good against alot of decks.

[Mith]

I haven't even come close to finalizing the sideboard. Off the top of my head, I'd most likely include a combination of the following:

- Red Elemental Blasts
- Planar Void
- Seal of Cleansing
- Umezawa's Jitte
- Orim's Chant
- Rack and Ruin

Between Jittes, Swords, and Bolts...you should have enough removal for other weenie decks. REB's, Planar Voids, and Orim's will help seal the coffin on combo. Rack and Ruin cobined with your maindeck artifact hate should be enough for Stax and the like...but I have yet to test that. Overall, I really think this deck has a good balance of speed and hate to help keep a weenie deck afloat amongst some of the better decks in the format. Anyways, test it out for yourself and see how it goes 

[ReAnimator]

This might be a terrible idea, and it might be hard too squeeze in, but considering you are going for a resource denial strategy this might fit in:

Destructive urge 1RR
Enchant creature
Whenever enchanted creature deals combat damage to a player, that player sacrifices a land.

It is probably too expensive, but it does have an interesting effect that can help buy turns. The potential for card disadvantage isn't too great, as there are a lot of decks that don' t really have removal, and if this connects once you break even.
I've always wanted to squeeze this into UR fish but it obviously lost out to curiosity when you are tight for slots.

[Implacable]

It's too much mana for a weak effect.  Sorry to be blunt, but there are many cards that I would play before that.

[Bubbydan]

  Have you considered running Watchwolf? your running both w+g and a 3/3 creature for that much could be better than most at that cost. I think the only one better would be Jotun Grunt.

Dan

[Special K]

how hot would armadillo cloak be in the aggro mirror? you put it on anything they have to trade 2 for 1 to block it but swords and other direct removal would indeed suck. I've used it before in gro based decks to make dryads more aggressive and not have to sit back as walls. Along that note how fast could a dryad gro in this deck? could it possibly get up to grunt size in a few turns?

[forests failed you]

It probably wouldn't be as hot as you'd like it to be, because 'in response, Lightning Bolt, STP, or Lightning Helix' are all pretty painful pre combat phase two for ones.

I had a game yesterday that played out so spicily it was insane.  I was on the play against Gifts.

Turn one

 fetch land, Savannah, Mox Ruby, Kird Ape, Root Maze. go

He Plays Island, Jet go.

Turn Two

I play Strip Mine, Grunt Go

He Plays Recall, Mox, Underground Sea

Turn 3

I strip Mine his land and drop Shaman

He plays Force of Will.  I drop another land and play Issamaru.

He leaves up Drain Mana on his turn.

Turn 4

Chant, Shrapnel Blast attack win.

What a beating.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

It probably wouldn't be as hot as you'd like it to be, because 'in response, Lightning Bolt, STP, or Lightning Helix' are all pretty painful pre combat phase two for ones.

I had a game yesterday that played out so spicily it was insane.  I was on the play against Gifts.

Turn one

 fetch land, Savannah, Mox Ruby, Kird Ape, Root Maze. go

He Plays Island, Jet go.

Turn Two

I play Strip Mine, Grunt Go

He Plays Recall, Mox, Underground Sea

Turn 3

I strip Mine his land and drop Shaman

He plays Force of Will.  I drop another land and play Issamaru.

He leaves up Drain Mana on his turn.

Turn 4

Chant, Shrapnel Blast attack win.

What a beating.

I think this game illustrates in part at least why Root Maze is insane.  The card really is annoying as hell to play against, and because it's not very commonly played now many people won't be used to playing against it.  It slows almost every deck down drastically, as well as having great synergy with Gorilla Shaman.

About Black and Confident: Draw is good in every deck, but not always necessary, and I don't think that Bob is necessarily a very good fit here, because he's not aggressive enough for what the deck is trying to do.  A 2/1 2 drop that doesn't actively disrupt your opponent seems too slow, when the deck packs aggressive 2 power 1 drops and a 4 power 2 drop in comparison.  Dying to common creature hate and trading with Welder makes him even worse.

I do feel that it is annoying for the deck to not have any answers to Colossus pre-board; although none are very suitable in R/G/w (swords seems to go against what this deck wants to do (beat down quickly) and unless you are expecting a great deal of workshop decks maindeck artifact mutation seems stupid).  Maze of ith would work too but also sits there doing nothing without the opponent having Colossus in play.

Maindeck REB could be a possible solution, since it can hit Tinker and also take out counters, draw spells, etc, although it admittedly sucks against workshop.  From the perspective of a control player this deck would seem much scarier to me with REBs, because I wouldn't be able to count on any of my blue spells resolving.  I realize that the deck disrupts the opponent through mana denial, but I think that this would be even scarier backed by counters.  I suppose this comes down to how many Blue decks one expects to play.

I think that Pyrostatic Pillar is better against combo than Rule of Law, if only because it is 1 mana cheaper, because that makes it generally come down 1 turn ealier, which can be critical against combo.  Rule of Law is also good when in play though, because I know from experience with combo that I absolutely HATE playing against Rule of Law/ Arcane Lab, especially when backed with counters (ie, REBS) for chain of vapor.  The fact that I can only play one spell/turn makes it that much more difficult for me to get an answer to it, and even if I do it's impossible to protect it when I cast it even if I have a counter (although on the flip-side I know my bounce will resolve if I play it on their EOT after they have already cast a spell).  Pillar does damage and helps you put pressure, but doesn't actively stop them from doing anything (ie, they can still go crazy with a draw 7, tutor, then bounce it, although your Pillar is much more dangerous when backed also by instant speed burn, especially with the amount of damage combo decks tend to do to themselves.

Although Pillar hurts you, too, the fact that you can put a clock on the board and then sit back with instant speed burn in hand makes it much more difficult for the combo player.  I would only hesitate to play it if I was running Bob (which I don't think is very good in the deck anyway, as I already said).  Another factor is that Pillar gets even better in multiples (4 to the dome per spell cast is insane), whereas multiple Rules of Law are useless (unless 1 gets countered/chained).  And as a last argument for Pillar, I think that is has more synergy with the beatdown/damage dealing aspect of the deck overall, whereas Rule of Law is "just hate."

Hidden Gibbons, as suggested, could be a cheap and significant contribution to your clock.  He's great when he works, the thing is that I hate playing cards that rely on my opponent doing a certain thing.  Not only does this card simply suck against Workshop decks, even in the case of decks that it is 'good' against it can be played around by your opponent.  I want my cards to do something all the time and their effect to be in my control, not that of my opponent.  The same thing goes for the other Hiddens.  Gibbons as a possible 4/4 for G is probably the only one I would even consider playing; the others are all significantly worse.

[Implacable]

I disagree with you, Gandolf, about the Hidden creatures.  While most of them, including Gibbons, are undeniably bad, Hidden Herd is very, very good, because it always a 3/3 for G, as opposed to Gibbons, which can be played around. 

[silvernail]

4 Savannah Lions
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Duress
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Null Rod
4 Hide/Seek
3 Vindicate

3 on color mox
1 black lotus
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
4 Plateau
3 Scrubland
3 Badlands


SB:
3 REB
3 Orims Chant
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Ronom Unicorn
3 Shattering Spree

This post violates Rule 4, Lack of Content.  Decklists, standing alone, do not constitute useful posts.  Verbal warning. 
-DA

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I disagree with you, Gandolf, about the Hidden creatures.  While most of them, including Gibbons, are undeniably bad, Hidden Herd is very, very good, because it always a 3/3 for G, as opposed to Gibbons, which can be played around. 

I'm confused.  None of the Hiddens are "always" creatures.  Both Gibbons and Herd require specific actions from your opponent in order to be effective, so they can both be played around and/or end up useless (for example, if your opponent misses a land drop).  I'll admit that it Heard is better than Gibbons against Workshop decks, but there's a big difference between a 3/3 and a 4/4 when it comes to the pressure you put on other archetypes.

[Implacable]

Herd is not just always a 3/3 for G against Workshop decks; it is always a 3/3 for G against any deck.  I literally cannot recall a game in the past 6 months where a player has gone the first two turns without dropping a nonbasic land, regardless of the archetype.  Gibbons, on the other hand, is much more situational, and thus has no place in a deck thats entire point is consistency (the hallmark of any good aggro deck).