[Deck Discussion] Null Rod MUD

[madmanmike25]

When you think of MUD decks, what's the first artifact that comes to mind?  Most people would probably say Metalworker.  The previous MUD thread(started by WhiteWolf) was starting to get sidetracked and lost focus.  It went on many different tangents (hence starting this new thread and not necro'ing the old one), but that is the beauty/dilemma of MUD decks.  The possiblities are almost endless. 

With many pm's between WhiteWolf and myself, we came up with a lockdown version of MUD that included Null Rod, one of the most powerful artifacts in vintage.  Here is my list that is only 4 cards different from WhiteWolf's list.

Chunks of Metal 25

4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tanglewire
4 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere

Creatures 3

3 Razormane Masticore

Acceleration 8

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol ring

Land 24

4 Mishras Workshop
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Mishras Factory
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Stripmine
1 Tolarian Academy

SB 15

3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Eon Hub
3 Orb of Dreams
3 Damping Matrix
3 Jester's Cap

WhiteWolfs maindeck is different by including +1 Bazaar, +2 Maze of Ith, +1 Mishras Factory, and -1 Mana Crypt, -3 Razormane Masticore.  He can list his SB and reasoning for including the above cards.

My current SB is a work in progress.  I realize that Caps dont work with rods, however the matches where rods do little(ichorid,fish, oath) are when I put in the caps.  I would prefer main deck discussion for now as I can tweak the SB later.

Allow me to explain some of the card choices.

Null Rod is a great mana denial artifact.  Period.  The fact that it also shuts down Mind Slavers, Triskelions, Charbelchers, and a host of other artifacts is a nice bonus.  One thing during testing that I found out is that the inclusion of Null Rod allows me to set my chalices at 1 more frequently.  Many times a Chalice at 1 has been more disruptive than set at 0.  Granted, if its first turn on the draw against any unknown deck you pretty much always want your chalice at 0.  Null Rod also makes the additional Chalices better in a sense.  Once the rod comes down your Chalices for 2 also become more frequent.  My point is that Null Rod helps to solidify the lockdown in this deck.

Smokestack is almost an auto-include as well, and is hardly "the worst misguided rage ever" when used in this particular deck.  The effect is too powerful not to include this card.  It's almost a 'cure all' for most situations.  I'm not talking about seeing smokestack in a vacuum, but when used in conjunction with the other lockdown pieces.

Spheres, Trinisphere, and Crucible should be self explanatory.  If you aren't used to a lockdown deck with Smokestack, these cards are highly needed to establish victory.  If anyone has a question about these 3 card choices feel free to pm me.

Pesonally I love tanglewires and they have tested great for me.  I don't think there is a better artifact to take its place either(currently).

Ghost Quarters(G.Q.'s) were almost Rishadan Ports, but after testing I prefered the Quarters.  My reasoning is that G.Q.'s are more potent against the lands that I really want to get rid of RIGHT NOW.  Bazaar of Baghdad and opposing Mishras Workshops are 2 prime examples of high powered lands in vintage.  Ports were just not that effective for me.  Now, you dont ALWAYS get to use the G.Q.'s as stripmine #2-5.  You use your wastelands to take out duals and then if you have crucible and if the situation warrants, you then proceed to use the G.Q. on basics.  The most powerful decks in vintage only run 3-4 basic lands.  So it may take a few turns (which you still get to use them for mana), they can become quite potent.  Basically you have to use them wisely.

This deck 'wins' by first establishing victory(creating the lockdown), then using factories/Razor to finish the job.  Sometimes Razor wins before a lockdown is even fully created.

Now I will try to address some concerns in advance.

Null Rod AND Sphere of Resistance.  Seems a bit much does it?  Hardly.  With the high land count, it is very rare that I am the one who gets mana screwed.  Remember than I have 21 mana producing lands as well as the accelerants.

Bazaar of Baghdad AND Razormane Masticore.  It pretty much comes down to one or the other.  Bazaar is GREAT for filtering multiple rods, chalices, lands.  Razormane adds a 'clock to the lock' so to speak.  You cannot have both of them active.  It comes down to this; if Razor is about to win you the game, or you need him to kill some creatures leave him in play.  If you need to find another lock component because your opponent is about to win, use bazaars filtering ability.  Hydra was considered as I feel at least SOME creature removal is necessary, but he only hits for 10 damage unopposed, which is hardly a clock.  I am more concerned about permanents than I am about cards in hand.

Ok, heres the point where I stop, even though I can probably type much much more.  I want to get some feedback first before I get too long winded.  Let me just say that I was able to test against Oath, Fish variants, and Ichorid to an extent.  My original build had the Orb of Dreams main decked in place of bazaars which gave it a much easier Ichorid matchup(and can hurt dragon) but I felt that sometimes the deck just needed the filtering abilty more.

A special thanks goes to WhiteWolf for his collaboration with this deck and with MUD decks in general, his input was extremely helpful.  We both feel that this is a solid deck and await your comments.

Thanks for reading,
Mike

[WhiteWolf]

For reference, here's my latest list:

The MUD Factory

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Null Rod
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack

4 Bazaar of Baghdad

2 Maze of Ith / The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Sideboard

4 Maze of Ith (OR 2 Maze + 2 Tabernacle, depends on the maindeck choice)
4 Damping Matrix
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pithing Needle / Orb of Dreams / Sculpting Steel


The 2 Maze / Tabernacle slots maindeck and the last sideboard slots aren't set in stone because I haven't had the chance to test a lot the last weeks. If there was a tournament tomorrow I would go with the Mazes maindeck and the Pithing Needles in the Side.

On the great number of 4-ofs: This seems redundant but it provides much needed consistency and you can filter away extras with Bazaar.

On Bazaar: This may seem weird without Uba Mask and especially Goblin Welder but it's still very strong in this deck. When my hand is depleted (of relevant locks not of cards) I start filtering extra locks and land and useless artifact mana into useful cards. I tested it without expecting much but I was pleasantly surprised. Vroman is 100 % correct when he claims Bazaar to be the best unrestricted draw-engine, even on its own. I used to play Bottled Cloister but that could turn into suicide agianst some decks (bounce!)

On the Ghost Quarters: They have proven great in testing. Especially agianst decks with no or only 1/2 basics they're brutal.

On the slow kill (at least in my version): I admit this could be a problem, but when I'm filtering through the deck with Bazaar I can quickly pile up the Factorys and beat down. I truly love the creatureless character of the deck.

On my sideboard: It's very different from madmanmike25's. I like to keep all my artifacts 'non-activated' and as cheap as possible. Mazes are great to stall the opponents critter(s) untill a Smokestack or Bridge comes down. The Damping Matrixes are truly needed against opposing Stax decks (Welders and Heretics). At the moment I prefer the Needles in the last slots because they stop Bazaar (I know, I use them too but agianst Ichorid I wouldn't mind), Welder, Heretic, Salvagers, fetch-lands, ... An underused card in my opinion.

Like madmanmike25 said, we would appreciate some (constructive) comments and tips. We realize that this isn't probably the best Stax version but we want to make it as good as it can get. I would like to ask to keep the discussion on colorless Stax. People tend to suggest colored cards sometimes and every opinion is appreciated but we want to keep the discussion on track.

WhiteWolf

[dicemanx]

There should also be some examination of Winter Orb and/or Rishadan Port. Both have been used with varying degrees of success in MUD builds, and Winter Orb can be especially more potent in a version with Null Rod. In some personal testing over the past year, I've also come to the conclusion that Rishadan Port tends to be stronger than Ghost Quarter against Drain archetypes - there are circumstances where Ports can shut off Mana Drains while GQ cannot, and Ports can force fetchlands if the opponent doesn't want to risk getting them wasted. Ports of course have their own synergy with Winter Orb.

[WhiteWolf]

dicemanx: I used to play rodless MUD with Winter Orbs a lot before I started incorporating Null Rod. I must admit Winter Orb was often very powerful, especially in conjunction with Tangle Wire and especially against Drain-decks. Winter Orb + Null Rod sounds like a very harsh lock and it is on my "to test list". I'm a little afraid however that it will put a too great strain on my own mana-base. On top of that, it hampers the Factorys as a win condition and the Bazaars as a filter-engine. I will make it the next thing to test however.

You're also right that Rishadan Port is stronger than Ghost Quarter in versions with Winter Orb. I used them with much succes in my older builds. You can even shut off 2 Islands (one at the end of their turn and one during your own turn) to make sure your spell doesn't get countered.

In your personal testing did you ever try Rod and Worb in the same deck? How would you incorporate them together? It would be very interesting to hear your thoughts on that.

WhiteWolf

[dicemanx]

dicemanx: I used to play rodless MUD with Winter Orbs a lot before I started incorporating Null Rod. I must admit Winter Orb was often very powerful, especially in conjunction with Tangle Wire and especially against Drain-decks. Winter Orb + Null Rod sounds like a very harsh lock and it is on my "to test list". I'm a little afraid however that it will put a too great strain on my own mana-base. On top of that, it hampers the Factorys as a win condition and the Bazaars as a filter-engine. I will make it the next thing to test however.

You're also right that Rishadan Port is stronger than Ghost Quarter in versions with Winter Orb. I used them with much succes in my older builds. You can even shut off 2 Islands (one at the end of their turn and one during your own turn) to make sure your spell doesn't get countered.

In your personal testing did you ever try Rod and Worb in the same deck? How would you incorporate them together? It would be very interesting to hear your thoughts on that.

WhiteWolf

I haven't tried Null Rod in conjunction with WOrb, because I tend to favor the explosiveness of Metalworker and use up to 3 Karns to do the job of Rods (and I like the fact that Metalworkers can support game ending spells like Cap in the right meta). I posted to see if anyone had some experiences with this combination of cards, and if not, it would be worth a look. I'm interested in following any of the discussions on MUD, and am curious about the strength of the Null Rod version and plan on testing it in the near future.

On a separate note, it might also be worthwhile to examine Bottled Cloister ahead of something like Bazaar of Baghdad. Since the current crop of decks don't feature Rebuild/Hurkyl's as much game 1 (preference seems to be with Repeal), there is less danger in running Cloister. Cloister does a better job midgame in accumulating threats, but of course the mana cost can at times be a problem. Still, testing has shown to me that this is a perfectly viable card in MUD versions, but whether it is best is another story.

[madmanmike25]

I used to run cloister so I can offer some input.  I was never really truly concerned with the whole, "they can be bounced/destroyed/welded" argument because you dont really cast them early.  You are more concerned with lock pieces over a card draw artifact.  The filtering of Bazaar works quite nicely and is probably used around turn 3.  If you find yourself needing to use Bazaar too soon, you probably should have mulliganed.  Essentially, I found that 'Free' Filtering > Draw in this deck.

This decks strength lies partly due to Null Rod.  Winter Orbs were considered, but they might be best with Metalworkers and Rishadan Ports.

Right now the only answers to Mana Drains are Challice @ 2, Tanglewires, Sphere of Resistance, Smokestack with a counter, and hopefully a strip effect with crucible in play.

While I do think that Maze of Ith and Tabernacle @ Pendrell Vale have potential, I honestly prefer faster creature removal (welders, confidant, mages).  The addition of Razormane over Clockwork Hydra has been working for me.  I would easily pay one mana to keep my welder/confidant active, and maze might not even effect either of those guys.

As for the Cap's, I too believe they are very powerful and have them in the SB when i take out Null Rod.

The main question then must be "Is Null Rod better than Metalworker?".  In a lockdown deck, I would have to say yes.

I dont want to get off topic, as I also have a similar build with Metalworker, but it is not a lockdown type deck.  So, hopefully we can stay focused on Null Rod as an inclusion to MUD.

[yespuhyren]

While I don't want to go off topic or anything, I have a Mono R list that is EXTREMELY Similar in concept to this deck.  While I know it is against TMD's policy to post lists on other people's lists, I will say that the lock pieces in that deck are the same with even MORE than are in your list.  I have all your 25 AND

4x Welder
2x Shaman

If you are interested in a list PM me or post here (I'll be checking back i'm sure) and we can discuss this in private or publicly.

[Dralock]

While I don't want to go off topic or anything, I have a Mono R list that is EXTREMELY Similar in concept to this deck.  While I know it is against TMD's policy to post lists on other people's lists, I will say that the lock pieces in that deck are the same with even MORE than are in your list.  I have all your 25 AND

4x Welder
2x Shaman

If you are interested in a list PM me or post here (I'll be checking back i'm sure) and we can discuss this in private or publicly.

I seriously don't think anyone wants to bring stax to a MUD discussion. Welder is powerful, as is shaman, as is barbarian ring, as is uba mask as is....Do you see where I am going with this?

I like the inclusion of masticores because they give the ability to do something while you are locked with null rod. It has always been a crazy thought to put the rod in a brown deck because of the counter-productivity. However, with the effects I see in this board it appears this isn't an issue. I would like to see more triggered brown pieces that can take advantage of the lockdown situation. Currently tanglewire, masticores and smokestacks are really good at progressing the game.

I don't exactly know what else to say. You have been testing this deck for close to two years now, I think its about time to put the stamp on it and for someone to take it to tournament.

[Vegeta2711]

How does your MUD deck not get rolled by more controlling Gifts archetypes like Dry Slaver and MDG? You have no card-draw, you can't manipulate the opponent's board outside of Smokestack and some strips (Ghost Quarter seems majorly WTF unless you always plan on resolving Crucible) and because you don't run Metalworker or alternative lock pieces that cost 2 or less; you have a limit on how much you can do on the first and second turn.

I think MUD is cute and all because it let's you run Workshop and Ancient Tomb in the same deck, but it's just a deck type that gets ridiculously blown out of the game by bounce and Drain decks. Simply puy, if you can't lock up Gifts in the first turn (if on the draw anyway) or second turn (if on play), your goiong to be insanely behind in terms of your strategic plan of limiting resources and you usually can't cover the distance in time.

[DoubleDrain]

I like the idea of a null rod list. The only real question I have is why no Memory Jar.

Now, I know that card clearly sucks if you have a rod in play, but with 3 masticore/bazaar, you can always pitch it if the rod is out.

The worst part about this deck is it's lack of card draw, and adding in jar gives the deck one more way to blow up in it's opponent's face.

Maybe I love jar so much because I test MUD w/metalworkers a lot, and of course rod isn't in my build. Anyways, the card seems too strong to omit.

Have you tested well of knowledge? EDIT: nevermind, I just read the oracle for this card. Not too good with rods...

[madmanmike25]

The deck really isn't designed to draw cards.  In fact, my first MUD deck had zero draw in favor of more lock components and was still testing favorably.  But I did come to realize that some form was a necessity.

Lets get one thing clear.  This MUD deck is  more concerned about what artifacts are in play then in hand.  Thats why Bazaar fits this deck very nicely.  You filter out any redundant cards.  MUD isn't like any blue deck that NEEDS some form of draw/tutor in its opening hand.

Another thing, MUD isn't the most resilient deck (read: no bounce).  It's strength is in its consistency and the ability to essentially 'cheat' mana costs by using lands that produce more than one mana. 

Also I wish to test the Gifts matchup more closely before I can concede that it gets 'rolled' by it.  Gifts cost 4 mana.  The point is to not let them get that far(or to neuter their mana sources).  You have to set your chalices wisely, and a Null Rod in play lets you set Chalice @ 1 and 2 more frequently.

All I can say is having Null Rod and Chalice has been freakin awesome in the games I have played.

Ghost Quarter seems majorly WTF unless you always plan on resolving Crucible

Yes, it would be nice to always have crucible resolve.  But in reality that doesn't get to happen all the time.  My reason for including them was to get rid of those troublesome lands(bazaar, workshop, etc) first and foremost.  A resolved crucible just makes them that much better.

Simply puy, if you can't lock up Gifts in the first turn (if on the draw anyway) or second turn (if on play), your goiong to be insanely behind in terms of your strategic plan of limiting resources and you usually can't cover the distance in time.

The only cards I have on the play to lock/slow down Gifts would be:
4 Null Rod
4 Chalice
4 Sphere
4 Smokestack
1 Trinisphere

I realize thats only 17 cards, but all of them are great if you are going first.

Memory Jar would be better in a non-rod build and might feed my opponents graveyard too much.

Basically what it comes down to is: How can MUD be the best that it CAN be?  Unfortunately I can't attend any major tournaments and see how this particular MUD deck fares.  I am not, however, trying to imply that MUD is a 'broken' concept/deck.  I do feel that it has great lockdown components and is a viable vintage deck. 

Also I would like to ask:  Do you feel that this MUD list is optimal?  If not, what cards would you include/swap out?  Do you see Null Rod as a potent lock card?

Until the next smokestack is printed, I feel this is an effective MUD deck.  Thank you for your criticisms and comments.

[o uncola o]

Why Jester's Cap at all?  Most match-ups it is jank.  Though it is true that if it goes off, some decks are SOL.  I just think that you might be better off throwing Piting Needles, Winter Orb, or the like in those same spots.

[yespuhyren]

Lets look at the T16 waterbury decks

Gifts - Good
7/10 - Good
Gat - Good
Slaver - Good
Oath - Good
Gifts - Good
Eba - Bad
U/W Fish - Bad
T1T - Good
Eba - Bad
Control Slaver - Good
Pitch Long - Good
Gifts - Good
Gifts - Good
Control Slaver - Good
Pitch Long - Good

Bad against 3/16...I'm not going to complain

[Disburden]

Sorry if I am confused by the descussion of Jester's Cap, but isn't Null Rod just as good in the same matchups that you listed were good for Cap? Doesn't cap cost a lot more mana than Null Rod when Null Rod shuts down their whole board position and is a permenant? I couldn't really find a full argument based on Cap Versus Null Rod in this thread, but it seems that where the thread was going to go since the mention of Cap seemed to come out of no where. It actually seems like the mentioning of the card flew out of no where two posts ago. Anyway, if the discussion is whether or not Null Rod is better than Cap, I would have to say Null Rod is definitely better as a lock component in general. It has the same good matchups as mentioned with jester's cap and it also is a cheap effective way to bully your opponents board as cap doesn't. Being able to cast a threat, get it countered and then cast Null Rod in the same turn is good too because of it's cheap casting cost. Cheap efficiency is good, even if you run broken acceleration in Workshop.

[yespuhyren]

I fail to see how Null Rod and Cap are even remotely the same.  You do realize that if you activate Cap against a lot of decks you win.  Decks can bounce rod EOT and then win.  They can't do much if you cap out their wins.

[Disburden]

I am aware that resolving a Jester's Cap is quite useful against your opponent. Yes it is a powerhouse of an effect if it does resolve against decks like Gifts and long. But my point is that Null Rod shifts board position in such an early state of the game that it can help you pull out a win more than investing a ton of mana to cast and activate cap in the same turn. The effect of Cap is huge, no doubt, but the cheap and effective way Null Rod works early for you is just enough to win anyway (by win I mean the early game struggle which allows you to pull foward past your oppoent). I think Jester's Cap is a fun card, I own like 15 of them, but I do think it may be more fun than 100% potent when considering other options. This is probably why Vroman always opts for Null Rod and doesn't really use caps in his maindeck of Uba Stax. The various plays when casting Null Rod availible can outshine the effect of Jester's Cap on the opponents Library. Either way, my post was addressing Null Rod versus Caps, but now I see that may have not been the subject of an argument anyway.

[o uncola o]

I am aware that resolving a Jester's Cap is quite useful against your opponent. Yes it is a powerhouse of an effect if it does resolve against decks like Gifts and long. But my point is that Null Rod shifts board position in such an early state of the game that it can help you pull out a win more than investing a ton of mana to cast and activate cap in the same turn. The effect of Cap is huge, no doubt, but the cheap and effective way Null Rod works early for you is just enough to win anyway (by win I mean the early game struggle which allows you to pull foward past your oppoent). I think Jester's Cap is a fun card, I own like 15 of them, but I do think it may be more fun than 100% potent when considering other options. This is probably why Vroman always opts for Null Rod and doesn't really use caps in his maindeck of Uba Stax. The various plays when casting Null Rod availible can outshine the effect of Jester's Cap on the opponents Library. Either way, my post was addressing Null Rod versus Caps, but now I see that may have not been the subject of an argument anyway.

You post hit the core of what I was getting at.  Cap can be a very good card in many match-ups.  If it actually resolves, it can be game in a few match-ups.  However, I was just question whether the same 'board spot could be used for another lock component or some other piece that does not require 6 mana to cast and use on the same turn.  Not trying to say that cap is bad.  Hell, if you tested it and it rocks, more power to you.  I just think that if you have not exhausted the testing for that sideboard spot, then I think that other cards may prove more efficacious in that spot.

[madmanmike25]

Sorry if I am confused by the descussion of Jester's Cap, but isn't Null Rod just as good in the same matchups that you listed were good for Cap? Doesn't cap cost a lot more mana than Null Rod when Null Rod shuts down their whole board position and is a permenant? I couldn't really find a full argument based on Cap Versus Null Rod in this thread, but it seems that where the thread was going to go since the mention of Cap seemed to come out of no where. It actually seems like the mentioning of the card flew out of no where two posts ago. Anyway, if the discussion is whether or not Null Rod is better than Cap, I would have to say Null Rod is definitely better as a lock component in general. It has the same good matchups as mentioned with jester's cap and it also is a cheap effective way to bully your opponents board as cap doesn't. Being able to cast a threat, get it countered and then cast Null Rod in the same turn is good too because of it's cheap casting cost. Cheap efficiency is good, even if you run broken acceleration in Workshop.

Let me clear a few things up.  First, this isn't just a MUD deck, but a MUD STAX deck.  It tries to lockdown the opponent via more permanents and tries to attack the manabase.

Secondly  you are correct, Disburden, in that Null Rod is a better lock piece than the Cap.  That's why it is maindecked and the Caps are sideboarded.  If you read my first post, I explained that Null Rod ISN'T good against decks like Ichorid, Oath, and Fish.  In these matches the Rods come out and in go the Jester's Caps.  You NEVER want both in your deck in the list I posted.

Point is, If you want Jester's Caps maindeck, you should be playing Metalworker and NOT Null Rod.  In this MUD build Null Rod is in fact, superior than Cap's since it comes down so fast.  Both uncola and Disburden have the correct view of the situation, especially when you are trying to lockdown the opponent with this type of deck.

Yespuhyren points are valid, especially when I side them in against certain matchups.  I love getting that random win upon activation, but Null Rod is simply more consistent and thats what MUD needs.


Anyways the Caps are in the sideboard which isn't set in stone just yet, cards like pithing needle, winter orb, defense grid, etc are also still under consideration.  My main focus is the maindeck, which should be played like a mono brown Stax deck.

[yespuhyren]

I did also just want to clarify I wasn't saying that you should be playing Cap maindeck.  I was simply replying to the post made by  o uncola o

[roberts91rom]

If you read my first post, I explained that Null Rod ISN'T good against decks like Ichorid, Oath, and Fish.  In these matches the Rods come out and in go the Jester's Caps. 

I can see how useful Cap is against Oath, but how does it help the Ichorid or Fish matchup? Ichorid can get most of its threats in the graveyard before Cap is online, and Fish has no outstanding targets. Even Silent Arbiter is a better choice than Cap in the Ichorid and Fish matchups, because it ensures you never get hit as long as he stays in play, which buys time to drop more Lock.

The main problem I see with this deck, is that it gets burned by all the hate aimed at Stax, except you don't run Ubazaar to rip through your deck, Welder to recur what the hate kills, Confidant to draw more threats, Tutors to get the best possible Locks, Barb Rings to kill creatures, Tomb to pay "Energy Flux" etc. etc.

I guess what I'm trying to say is how is this deck better, or at least more metagamed, than any Stax variant? You can't just say "Oh but they're different decks so no need to compare them." That is the same like telling an employer at a job interview that the other guy is better at the job than you are, but you are different so he should hire you. In a similar context you could say that a 2 year old TPS is an OK deck, so people should run it instead of IT, GrimLong, Pitch Long or Ritual Gifts.

I don't mean to play devil's advocate here, but somebody had to ask the question sooner or later. To state once more, how is this deck better, or at least more metagamed, than any possible Stax variant? Why is putting all your eggs in the artifact basket better than adding even a splash of colour for bombs/utility?

[madmanmike25]

If you read my first post, I explained that Null Rod ISN'T good against decks like Ichorid, Oath, and Fish.  In these matches the Rods come out and in go the Jester's Caps. 

I can see how useful Cap is against Oath, but how does it help the Ichorid or Fish matchup? Ichorid can get most of its threats in the graveyard before Cap is online, and Fish has no outstanding targets.

The main problem I see with this deck, is that it gets burned by all the hate aimed at Stax, except you don't run Ubazaar to rip through your deck, Welder to recur what the hate kills, Confidant to draw more threats, Tutors to get the best possible Locks, Barb Rings to kill creatures, Tomb to pay "Energy Flux" etc. etc.

I guess what I'm trying to say is how is this deck better, or at least more metagamed, than any Stax variant? You can't just say "Oh but they're different decks so no need to compare them." That is the same like telling an employer at a job interview that the other guy is better at the job than you are, but you are different so he should hire you. In a similar context you could say that a 2 year old TPS is an OK deck, so people should run it instead of IT, GrimLong, Pitch Long or Ritual Gifts.

I don't mean to play devil's advocate here, but somebody had to ask the question sooner or later. To state once more, how is this deck better, or at least more metagamed, than any possible Stax variant? Why is putting all your eggs in the artifact basket better than adding even a splash of colour for bombs/utility?

You raise some good questions.
The point I was trying to make was that Caps were MORE useful than Null Rod against Ichorid, Fish, and Oath.  Plus, I don't think that Ichorid consistently gets 3+ Ichorids in the graveyard faster that one activated Cap.  Also, its still a sideboard in progress as I have only been trying to hone the maindeck to make sure this MUD list is indeed viable before tweaking the side.  But since we are on the Cap topic, against Fish, Cap gets 3x [Kataki, E.Flux, random artifact hate] all while letting you see what your opponent sideboarded in, as well as being somewhat able to make out the cards in his hand (all it takes is a knowledge of the decktype your opponent is playing). 

Again, for the record, I'm not 100% on Cap's in the sideboard.  It just seemed like a logical choice when Null Rod wasnt OPTIMAL.  Yespuhyren probably can defend Caps better than I, and it is not my intention to do so in this thread.

Its not really why I feel this is 'better' than other Stax variants, more that this is probaby the most optimal MUD decklist I have seen.  And I will go on the record as stating that I think MUD is a VIABLE vintage deck, however not broken.  I'm not trying to convince people who always play with Drains, YawgWin, and FoW's, that this is a superior deck anymore than I am trying to get people to play this over UbaStax. 

I see your point about differences.  All I can say I guess is that I like to play a variety of decks and this is one of them.  MUD's strengths are its ability to use colorless mana and consistency.  Consider that Tog randomly wins a tourny here and there.  Is it a viable deck?  I would say yes.  Is it as potent as the recent combo decks or Gifts Ungiven based decks?  No, its not.  Some people just want to play something different that still has a chance to win.  This doesn't mean I wish to play inferior decks though.  My goal was to make the STONGEST MUD deck I could.  Hopefully no one tries to compare that statement to trying to build the 'best' 60 island.dec.  I would like some feedback to see what people would cut/include from the original list if possible.

I am also not going to suggest that everyone should build this out and test it.  Only those who love to abuse mishras workshop and may want a change from the mono red variants should try it.  Some people just like to play MUD.

Plus, the more I test I find that laying Null Rod or Sphere out first turn with a chalice(@1 or 0) is awesome.  If Rod gets FoW'ed the chalice drops for 0.  Chalice is probably my favorite card in this deck, maybe even over smokestack.

And thanks, I do appreciate the feedback.

p.s. does anyone know when the next major tournament is?

p.p.s  I would opt to run Ensnaring Bridge against Ichorid or even Orb of Dreams over  the Caps.

[yespuhyren]

Yespuhyren probably can defend Caps better than I, and it is not my intention to do so in this thread.

Neither is it mine in this thread, and if anyone did want to talk about caps I'd be more than happy to do so through PM's than rudely clogging this thread. 

As far as the maindeck, I would agree with Whitewolf, as running razormane masticore will hurt you with bazaar.  I like his changes a lot, and would definitely recommend you looking into them, and move Razormane into the suggested SB I will post below

As per your sideboard, Ensnaring Bridge is a big mistake in my opinion.  Why?  Because with Ensnaring Bridge out, you have no way to win.  You have no land source of damage like Barbarian Ring.  Decking out opponents is way too slow, unless you play 1 of that land that dies and makes 1/1's, make a huge horde of 20/30 or so, then sac it to smokestack and win.  This is still a very very slow kill.

The SB I would use in a Rod-Mud deck would be the following:

ANTI CONTROL - 4x Defense Grid - No way this doesn't make it in a mud deck, side out 4x Sphere of Resistance
ANTI ICHORID - 4x Caltrops - Orb of dreams doesn't really cut it against Ichorid, because now they can just beat you down with Nether Shadow.  Get some spheres and disruption online and they can't cast Dread Return, and must win with their X/1's
ANTI AGGRO - 4x Juggernaut, 3x Razormane Masticore - Just beat them faster.  Against NON vial fish, SB out 4x Null Rod 3x Sphere of Resistance, Against Vial fish side out 4x Sphere of Resistance, 3x Bazaar

Hopefully this aids you a little bit

[WhiteWolf]

I don't mean to play devil's advocate here, but somebody had to ask the question sooner or later. To state once more, how is this deck better, or at least more metagamed, than any possible Stax variant? Why is putting all your eggs in the artifact basket better than adding even a splash of colour for bombs/utility?

First, I agree with madmanmike25 that not everyone wants to play the same decks and we just want to fine-tune the best possible MUD list. Second, you shouldn't dismiss these lists too quick. MUD has it's own strenghts above other stax variants, especially the mana base. You drop the basic lands or 5-color lands and get to use lands that do more than just produce (one) mana: Ghost Quarter, Rishadan Port, Desert, Ancient Tomb, ... are all nice options. It's also very easy to put a Chalice at 0, 1 and even 2 without hurting yourself too much wich is a great plus. Another reason, and this may sound logical but is actually important, is that you always have the right color of mana available.When playing Rod-MUD I don't really miss Welder or colored bombs but I'd most want a colorless Barbarian Ring. Cheap, Rod-resistant answers to Kataki, Mage, Welder, Confidant, ... are hard to find.

The SB I would use in a Rod-Mud deck would be the following:

ANTI CONTROL - 4x Defense Grid - No way this doesn't make it in a mud deck, side out 4x Sphere of Resistance
ANTI ICHORID - 4x Caltrops - Orb of dreams doesn't really cut it against Ichorid, because now they can just beat you down with Nether Shadow.  Get some spheres and disruption online and they can't cast Dread Return, and must win with their X/1's
ANTI AGGRO - 4x Juggernaut, 3x Razormane Masticore - Just beat them faster.  Against NON vial fish, SB out 4x Null Rod 3x Sphere of Resistance, Against Vial fish side out 4x Sphere of Resistance, 3x Bazaar

Hopefully this aids you a little bit

Aside from Razormane this sideboard contains nothing to get rid of pesky utility critters like Welder, Heretic and Shaman. I always include Damping Matrix/Cursed Totem and/or Pithing Needle in my MUD sideboard. Grid and Caltrops are nice suggestions, especially with the rising popularity of Goblin tokens. Fish is actually a hard match-up in my experience because solutions like Razormane don't tend to stick around for long due to Seals, Fluxes, ... That's why I like Mazes and Tabernacles for those match-ups.

WhiteWolf

[o uncola o]

Neither is it mine in this thread, and if anyone did want to talk about caps I'd be more than happy to do so through PM's than rudely clogging this thread. 

I'm sorry if my questioning the Cap clogged the thread.  It was not my intention to sidetrack, hijack, or in any other way be rude.  I was just commenting on the Cap as a 'board choice.  Posts that have occurred since the time when I questioned the use of the Cap in three of the board slots have let me know that those spots are not set in stone.  That is all that I was asking about and I was happy to find that these, and possibly other sideboard spots, were still up for debate.  This is what I was looking for, as I still feel like there may be better card choices for those slots.

[yespuhyren]

Neither is it mine in this thread, and if anyone did want to talk about caps I'd be more than happy to do so through PM's than rudely clogging this thread. 

I'm sorry if my questioning the Cap clogged the thread.  It was not my intention to sidetrack, hijack, or in any other way be rude.  I was just commenting on the Cap as a 'board choice.  Posts that have occurred since the time when I questioned the use of the Cap in three of the board slots have let me know that those spots are not set in stone.  That is all that I was asking about and I was happy to find that these, and possibly other sideboard spots, were still up for debate.  This is what I was looking for, as I still feel like there may be better card choices for those slots.

I just want to make sure you realize when I said rudely clogging the thread I was NOT talking about you.  Your question was fine, and more than fair.  What I meant would be "Rudely clogging the thread" would be if we started a whole new discussion inside the thread.  Again, I'm sorry if you misunderstoon and thought I was saying what you did was rude.

[Vegeta2711]

It's strength is in its consistency and the ability to essentially 'cheat' mana costs by using lands that produce more than one mana.

This is my fundamental issue with pretty much all Stax and MUD decks at present. All of them use weaker cards than other decks. Hence your not really cheating any relevant mana costs, your simply getting to fairly use weaker cards.

Also I wish to test the Gifts matchup more closely before I can concede that it gets 'rolled' by it.  Gifts cost 4 mana.  The point is to not let them get that far(or to neuter their mana sources).  You have to set your chalices wisely, and a Null Rod in play lets you set Chalice @ 1 and 2 more frequently.

I'm not so worried about the opponent resolving Gifts as I am a small chain of spells into an ETW for 8-10 men to ruin your day. Yeah it's 4 mana, but between Dark Ritual becoming more widely adopted and a change of role in the match, it's much harder to stop than when Gifts would just lose if you could stall them out on mana for a bit.

Also I would like to ask:  Do you feel that this MUD list is optimal?  If not, what cards would you include/swap out?  Do you see Null Rod as a potent lock card?

I think Null Rod is good. I don't think it's better than any number of lock pieces you could potentially run in the deck in it's place without damaging your own mana. I'd also seriously look into Winter Orb, even without Null Rod it's a major beating, with it I can't imagine many lock pieces* working better with it.

I wouldn't run a MUD list w/o Metalworker, I just couldn't. Metalworker just allows for the ultimate mana swing on the scale of Tinker. If it hits play you can just throw down your entire hand and win on the spot. It also allows for unique board considerations like Mindslaver or Staff of Domination, cards that just win the game when they resolve.

*Trinisphere would really be it

[madmanmike25]

It's strength is in its consistency and the ability to essentially 'cheat' mana costs by using lands that produce more than one mana.

This is my fundamental issue with pretty much all Stax and MUD decks at present. All of them use weaker cards than other decks. Hence your not really cheating any relevant mana costs, your simply getting to fairly use weaker cards.

Smokestack is one of the better cards in this deck, and having more lands (besides Workshop) that overproduce mana means it comes down sooner.  Early smokestacks are great and I realize that Uba variants can 'cheat' this through bazaar AND welder(active), but being able to more consistently hard cast this first turn(as well as almost guaranteed 2nd turn) IS A HUGE ADVANTAGE.  Not to mention that Chalice @ 2 (4 mana) is AWESOME.  The ability to play a Null Rod AND Sphere/Chalice@1 is excellent as well.  I would not refer to any of the mentioned cards/plays as being weak.

I'm not so worried about the opponent resolving Gifts as I am a small chain of spells into an ETW for 8-10 men to ruin your day. Yeah it's 4 mana, but between Dark Ritual becoming more widely adopted and a change of role in the match, it's much harder to stop than when Gifts would just lose if you could stall them out on mana for a bit.

I was only able to test against a MeanDeckGifts version with 4 scrolls, 4 gifts, 2 MisD, and Tendrils as the kill.  The only redspell in the decklist was Recoup.  The games were about 50/50 and I'm sure I'll hear something about that, but its the truth, I actually won one more game than my opponent.  If I laid down a decent lock component first, it really hurt gifts, the best was chalice @ 2 for me.  I have yet to play against ETW and will do so, can someone please P.M. me the current optimal list?

I think Null Rod is good. I don't think it's better than any number of lock pieces you could potentially run in the deck in it's place without damaging your own mana. I'd also seriously look into Winter Orb, even without Null Rod it's a major beating, with it I can't imagine many lock pieces* working better with it.

I wouldn't run a MUD list w/o Metalworker, I just couldn't. Metalworker just allows for the ultimate mana swing on the scale of Tinker. If it hits play you can just throw down your entire hand and win on the spot. It also allows for unique board considerations like Mindslaver or Staff of Domination, cards that just win the game when they resolve.

*Trinisphere would really be it

This is a point that WhiteWolf and I have discussed and have yet to prove a solid point.  I'm speaking of course, in regards to Winter Orb maindecked.  This will help illustrate my opinion about the card:

1.  You are on the play.  You lay down Winter Orb.  Effect of Winter Orb: ZERO.
2.  Opponent goes, lays one land and does anything.  Effect of Winter Orb: ZERO
3.  You go, do whatever.  Effect of Winter Orb:  ZERO
4.  Opponent goes, untaps his one land, dances a jig, and passes.  Effect of Winter Orb: ZERO.
5.  You untap only one land.  *First time Winter Orb does anything
6.  Opponent grimaces and untaps only one land.  * First time Winter Orb effects opponent.

If on the play, is turn SIX acceptable??  Slightly better if you are on the draw of course, and I dont feel it necessary to type all that up.

What would Winter Orb replace in the maindeck?

Were you suggesting Winter Orb only in the Sidboard?  I might see that as possible but what would it replace?  Is it better than Defense Grid?

@Vegeta2711:   Simply put, Null Rod is a lockpiece and is good in Stax decks.  Metalworker is great in MUD decks but isn't a lockpiece.  I'm not so sure that metalworker is NEEDED in a MUD-STAX variant.  The MUD list I play that includes Metalworker would play 4 Jester's Caps for sure.

@Yespuhyren:  Thanks for the SB suggestions, like i said its not set in stone and will need to be tweaked depending on if my maindeck list is altered.  About Bazaars AND Razormane, here is what i posted in the first thread-

Bazaar of Baghdad AND Razormane Masticore.  It pretty much comes down to one or the other.  Bazaar is GREAT for filtering multiple rods, chalices, lands.  Razormane adds a 'clock to the lock' so to speak.  You cannot have both of them active.  It comes down to this; if Razor is about to win you the game, or you need him to kill some creatures leave him in play.  If you need to find another lock component because your opponent is about to win, use bazaars filtering ability.  Hydra was considered as I feel at least SOME creature removal is necessary, but he only hits for 10 damage unopposed, which is hardly a clock.  I am more concerned about permanents than I am about cards in hand.

WhiteWolf is correct that you need some form of spot removal for troublesome critters.  Razor does this as good as any card I can think of while sometimes just winning the game for you.

@ o uncola o:  Jesters Cap is a valid SB discussion topic and now is the time to talk about using it or not.

@ All:    I really do appreciate the SB discussions as well as why you in particular wouldn't play with a MUD deck.  The fact that no one has really given me an example of an (better) artifact to REPLACE a current one leads me to believe that this list is pretty solid(my testing has shown the same).  Or a better way to phrase that is "as solid as Null Rod MUD can be".  Since the maindeck is currently unchanged, I guess let's get into more detail about SB options and try to finalize it.  For reference here is my maindeck list again.

Chunks of Metal 25

4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tanglewire
4 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere

Creatures 3

3 Razormane Masticore

Acceleration 8

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol ring

Land 24

4 Mishras Workshop
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Mishras Factory
3 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
1 Stripmine
1 Tolarian Academy

To those of you who will comment, can you please help me out and list what your individual 15 card SB would be for this list.  Please take into account a DIVERSE meta (i.e. major tourny).  Think about what decks you feel the maindeck is weak against and suggest accordingly.  My original SB (in the first post) needs major retooling.

[Dralock]

After testing this weekend, the only bad part about the gifts matchup is tinker->colossus as well as tanglewire being pretty ineffective at slowing the deck enough to be in a "race" situation for permanents under `stacks.

The standard MDG list was used with zero mods and no sideboarding at all. The games were 1/2-1/2, and the gifts list HAD to have a good opening hand.

So people can understand what is meant by strength in consistency. MDG, to beat this deck, must have a strong opening hand on the draw and on the play. Otherwise, the deck will be locked down quickly without the ability to get out of the hole that consistent hands from MUD will create for that player. Unless the MUD player is manascrewed either way (I know thats an old term, but mulligans are a disadvantage for either of these decks) the outcome for the match will obviously be negative, but otherwise you can count on seeing the ability to play multiple threats almost every turn.

Gifts does not have that ability when the manabase and counterbase are constantly under attack.

Observations:

1. The games were pretty much 1/2 and 1/2, but the gifts deck needed stronger hands than the mud deck and to mana shuffle twice as often.

2. Games played on a purely theoretical basis tended to work out in the gifts deck favor. I.E., games played open handed to explore all possibilities of what could happen in a given turn. Yea, this isn't the best testing method in the world, but when you don't have world class players to test against, some practices must be modified.

3. Switching decks between players found that tinker->colossus was THE biggest threat, and that most other situations could be contained.

4. Ghost quarter became a strip mine in multiple games. There were only two games out of all played that crucible actually resolved, so it has strength on its own. Please understand that the MDG list runs five basic lands. How is this possible? the quarters took out the basics and the wastelands did the rest.

5. Rod was never an issue. Sorry Mike, I have to tell it like it is. Rod was never a factor in any of our games, and chalice was the real winner.

Thats about it, I'll check back to see if anyone has any other questions, but I'm sure you can draw your own conclusions from this non-empirical data.