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Author Topic: [Deck Discussion] Repeal Gifts  (Read 12029 times)
TheBrassMan
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« on: January 17, 2007, 12:10:17 am »

(Repeal/Brass/GG) Gifts, TMD Open X, January 2007

Cards that stop your opponent from playing cards:
4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain
1x Pyroblast
3x Repeal
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Tormod's Crypt

Cards that let you play other cards:
4x Brainstorm
3x Gifts Ungiven
3x Merchant Scroll
1x Recoup
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Skeletal Scrying
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Timetwister
1x Yawgmoth's Will

Kill:
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens

Mana:
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Dark Ritual
1x Lotus Petal
4x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
3x Island
2x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Library of Alexandria

Sideboard:
2x Empty the Warrens
1x Repeal
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
1x Rebuild
2x Hurkyl's Recall
3x Duress
2x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt



So here's the winning Waterbury list, in case anyone wanted to see it.  It's very likely I'll be writing up something more primer-like for SCG in the next few weeks, and I hope that I can use discussion generated in this thread to find a direction for that article.  It's a very broad topic, but it makes the most sense to discuss the critical differences between this and the more common Meandeck Gifts, most notably:

Empty the Warrens (on it's own and specifically over Colossus)
Repeal (on it's own and specifically over Chain of Vapor)
Pyroblast/Tormod's crypt main (as opposed to Misdirection, Lava Dart, or Duress),
Skeletal Scrying (on it's own and specifically over Fact or Fiction)
and of course, Timetwister (on it's own, because seriously, what can you compare Timetwister to).

edit: also, of course, I'm more than happy to answer any other specific questions about the list in this thread.
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« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2007, 12:15:45 am »

Did you find most people had switched to Wipe Away for maindeck bounce as anti-Colossus solution?  In other words, is the success of EtW over Tinker->Colossus dependent on the number of people running Wipe Away over Echoing Truth?

Did you consider leaving Tinker, both as counter bait and to fetch Black Lotus or optionally Memory Jar?

Hurkyl's Recall versus Rebuild; since you're dependent on comboing out, does Repeal do enough or do you want Rebuild?
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« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2007, 12:29:43 am »

How did Timetwister work for you? I am most interested in this card. A long time ago, as some may remember, Timetwister was a part of almost every T1 deck much like Ancestral Recall is now where applicable. It fell from grace due to the interaction with the graveyard and newly developing archetypes that shifted the focus away from it.

      How is this card working for you thus far? Happy with it?
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2007, 12:55:55 am »

Timetwister was insane for me all day atleast. I won a couple games off just being like well i'm out of gas and then twistering and just winning on the spot.
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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2007, 12:57:40 am »

 I have been very interested in your list since Myriad when you had a maindeck Lava dart. Great job at finishing first on day one in TMDO X! I would like to know how you feel over Dark Ritual and Tendrils of Agony. I have been playing a version of your list, but with Warrens and Burning Wish over Tendrils in the maindeck. Have you considered using Burning Wish instead and freeing up a slot where Dark Ritual would be? I can see the problem with Extraction and other cards, but yor could still win with Tendrils out of the board. Also, I would like to comment that Timetwister is amazing in this version of Gifts. Every time I have resolved it in testing it's a huge bomb. Think of it as how good it is in straight Ritual based combo. It's that good here. That was a great idea to use this Draw-7 in Gifts. I like would like to see a tournament report from your successful day. Even more so I am interested in an article on SCG based on your opinion of how to build Gifts today. Do you feel Tinker with Colossus would've helped you anywhere during the tournament, or is it simply inferior in your opinion?

 The card I was most unsure of when seeing your list was Skeletal Scrying. I found that with 3Volcs-2 Seas you already ran a good deal of black spells and Scrying was the least important of the six cards. I have actually found myself missing black mana with your list (testing two days ago). This was one of the reasons I am now trying a Burning Wish instead of so much black. Either that or I'll try 3 Seas over 3 Volcanics.  Is this spell greatly important to your list, or could've it easily been Repeal #4 or another Scroll? Also, Repeal is nuts in this deck. I think running a full set is pretty optimal.

Once again, great job! Hope to hear more about your list.

Nick
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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2007, 03:14:59 am »

Timetwister is a key card into this deck because you can force it to be strongly asimmetrical by the insertion of Tormod's Crypt.

When you can't Recoup or Y.Will anything, you can force a new strong hand of seven cards.
The *combo* attitude of this deck, leave you almost always in a better shape after Twister.

Probasco deck's sinergies are really well done.

Skeletal Scrying can RFG fecth or useless lands
T.Crypt would RFG always good things to your opponent
Timetwister would always transform itself in a *lethal* weapon and in a *undercosted way to multiply goblins or spells count*

IMHO, this control-combo deck is really good, strong against Tier1 and difficult to hate.

I would play your deck with these changes:

-1 Repeal
+1 Chain of Vapors

-1 Gifts Ungiven
+1 FoF

-1 Pyroblast
+1 Misdirection/Gush

Chain and Gush are strong Combo enable.
FoF for Gifts can be an issue because of Gifts Ungiven stronger piles when you don't have cards to go off.

Maxx
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2007, 09:17:22 am »

Now that Empty the Warrens is in the spotlight, it might be wise to sub the maindeck pyroblast for duress.  Being able to hit your opponent's own EtW, ToA, or Echoing Truth as well as seeing their hand to successfully set up a huge attack step is paramount right now.

EtW is a fantastic weapon against most of the top decks right now.  Being able to leverage a victory off a storm count that doesn't always have to be nine or ten is a wonderful and dangerous thing.  Good job at that tourny dealy, btw.

I've never liked randomness, which Fact or Fiction is.  I'd much rather see a Gifts Ungiven there.  Maybe Gush could go there.  As Maxxmatt noted, the synergy with storm here seems good.  I'd be interested to know if that was tested.
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2007, 10:22:27 am »

I really like this deck, have you tried tinker/DSC (or perhaps tinker/titan) in the SB?

Looks like it can really up the storm count fast, have you considered running 2 copies of EtW maindeck?

I must say i'm really thrilled, this deck looks very promising...i already like it better then MDG! Wink (always hated DSC, I almost considered calling it Dead-Draw-Collosus)

/Zeus
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2007, 10:32:27 am »

I've never liked randomness, which Fact or Fiction is.  I'd much rather see a Gifts Ungiven there.  Maybe Gush could go there.  As Maxxmatt noted, the synergy with storm here seems good.  I'd be interested to know if that was tested.

I dont know why people dont like FoF so much, its a draw spell. All draw spells are randomn. FoF is basically a bigger Thirst for Knowledge. Now, in this deck its not better than gifts, but its still a really good card. Its also no more "randomn" than Skeletal Scrying.
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2007, 12:01:24 pm »

Congratulations, great list, and I look forward to the report!
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2007, 12:25:26 pm »

Excellent job Andy.  I guess Caps are gonna definitely have to come in again, to cap for the win G1 and cap for 3 warrens G2, and then fight off tendrils Sad
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« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2007, 12:52:54 pm »

Great job on the finish!

At a tourny last weekend I had the opportunity to watch this deck (+-2 cards) perform in the top eight.  Actually there were two.  I haven't had extensive time testing with Gifts but it's definately a deck I test against.  This list looks great.  It has shown to be very resiliant and hard to hate out.  I saw that the Repeals served, IMHO, as better combo enablers and protection against the board than MisD.  It doesn't cost you cards from hand and can be a solution to a problem.  During a couple games the Repeals got the Gifts player around SoR and a turn 1 3Sphere. 

Although I just toted the strength of Repeal, I think the golden boy of the deck is Empty the Warrens.  It is what has enabled this deck to be successful.  Tinker/Darksteel has proven to be a suboptimal out for a couple reasons.  First, Tinker is limited to its targets, most common are Darksteel or Black Lotus.  Second, Darksteel is dead in the hands of Gifts.  Third, it takes up two slots.  EtW is one slot, isn't dead in the hand, and it is just as good against Fish as DSC and better against Stax. 

I don't want to make this a point in the discussion but I think this might be the straw that breaks the camel's back regarding the restriction of Gifts.  We know it's been on the horizon; I think this is the deck that makes it happen.   
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« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2007, 02:28:02 pm »

I've never liked randomness, which Fact or Fiction is.  I'd much rather see a Gifts Ungiven there.  Maybe Gush could go there.  As Maxxmatt noted, the synergy with storm here seems good.  I'd be interested to know if that was tested.

I dont know why people dont like FoF so much, its a draw spell. All draw spells are randomn. FoF is basically a bigger Thirst for Knowledge. Now, in this deck its not better than gifts, but its still a really good card. Its also no more "randomn" than Skeletal Scrying.

Well draw spells are random (note my sig) so gifts is just better then fof cause you're getting two cards you want regardless. Also you stated that in this deck it isn't better than gifts so why would you run it if you can just run more copies of gifts?
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« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2007, 04:02:02 pm »

I've never liked randomness, which Fact or Fiction is.  I'd much rather see a Gifts Ungiven there.  Maybe Gush could go there.  As Maxxmatt noted, the synergy with storm here seems good.  I'd be interested to know if that was tested.

I dont know why people dont like FoF so much, its a draw spell. All draw spells are randomn. FoF is basically a bigger Thirst for Knowledge. Now, in this deck its not better than gifts, but its still a really good card. Its also no more "randomn" than Skeletal Scrying.

Well draw spells are random (note my sig) so gifts is just better then fof cause you're getting two cards you want regardless. Also you stated that in this deck it isn't better than gifts so why would you run it if you can just run more copies of gifts?

The same could be said about Skeletal Scrying, why play with that when the deck can use another Gifts MD?
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« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2007, 04:37:29 pm »

First of all, thanks for all the congratulations!  I didn't get to respond to everything in this post, because there's a lot, but I typed up what I could.

Did you find most people had switched to Wipe Away for maindeck bounce as anti-Colossus solution?  In other words, is the success of EtW over Tinker->Colossus dependent on the number of people running Wipe Away over Echoing Truth?
     I certainly think Empty gets worse the more people prepare for it, but not to an extreme.  I played against 3 decks in the tournament that ran Echoing Truth, one of them both in swiss and top 8, and I never saw a Wipe Away on the day.  Echoing Truth is just an inherently weaker card than the Colossus answers of Wipe Away, Hide/Seek, Chain of Vapor, and Hurkyl's, and if your opponent is running them to beat Empty, his deck is slightly less powerful for it.  In your match that might not be a huge deal, but somewhere down the line, they're going to lose percentage points for having Truth over Hurkyl's, do worse in the field at large, and that helps you.
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Did you consider leaving Tinker, both as counter bait and to fetch Black Lotus or optionally Memory Jar?
     As useful a play it is to Tinker to Lotus or Vault before a Will, you're still resolving Will, and it's not strong enough to include over an alternative.  Tinker as bait isn't quite as good as Pyroblast or Duress, especially if they just let it resolve because they have bounce in hand, or if they Drain it and win off mana.  I was told by lots of people to add Jar to the deck when testing it, but I never wanted to, as I felt the 5 drop would just add too much to the list of cards you didn't want to see in your opening hand, and I felt I could get even more power and utility out of Twister at three mana.  That said, if I decided that Jar was worth a place in the deck, I'd obviously put Tinker and Colossus back in.
Quote
Hurkyl's Recall versus Rebuild; since you're dependent on comboing out, does Repeal do enough or do you want Rebuild?
     I'm not entirely sure if you're asking about Hurkyl's vs. Rebuild, or Repeal vs. Rebuild.  As for Hurkyl's, as great as cycling is, the single mana difference came up a lot in testing.  Against In the Eye of Chaos or Sphere of Resistance (or both and Null Rod and Tangle Wire and Wastelands), that mana can frequently mean the difference between victory and defeat.  Even in non-lock component matches, the one mana makes it easier to generate mana off the card, which makes it more useful to go for in a Gifts pile for the kill. 
     If you were asking Repeal vs. Rebuild, that's simple, I only felt I needed one mass bounce spell maindeck, with all of the scrolls and tutors, and Repeal does *much more* when going off than Rebuild does.

How did Timetwister work for you? I am most interested in this card. A long time ago, as some may remember, Timetwister was a part of almost every T1 deck much like Ancestral Recall is now where applicable. It fell from grace due to the interaction with the graveyard and newly developing archetypes that shifted the focus away from it.

      How is this card working for you thus far? Happy with it?
     Maxx Matt summed up some of the synergies pretty well, and T00L has almost as much experience playing this list as I do, but I'll throw in my two cents.  I think it's ironic that you say it dropped off the map because of graveyard interaction (which is probably somewhat true), because that's the number one reason I run it.  Timetwister is a great defensive tool against a player who's graveyard is stacked and ready to win.  It can single-handedly win the Ichorid matchup, but it's also great against players who have to Gifts or DT and then pass the turn, or combo players who have been bleeding counters out of your hand for a bigger threat. 
     What I tell people who criticize its randomness, is that you don't *have* to cast it when you draw it.  Unlike a dedicated Storm deck that needs to keep swimming or die, you can sit back if the right play is to sit back.  There are certainly exceptions, but if you have a better board, a better hand, and a better yard than your opponent, you're going to win if you don't cast Twister, the dead card won't kill you.  If you're behind, Twister is just about the best topdeck you can imagine.
     In testing I refer to Twister as "The Ultimate Out."  You know those situations where you try to think of what card saves you, and your only out is something like: rip ancestral, draw into Lotus, Hurkyl's, Will?  Timetwister actually finds those cards, and it wins when your out is *four* seperate cards off the top.  It's tough to time properly, and sometimes it screws you, but it gives your deck outs that no other card (yes, including Will, Wheel of Fortune, and Tinker->Jar) can.

I have been very interested in your list since Myriad when you had a maindeck Lava dart. Great job at finishing first on day one in TMDO X! I would like to know how you feel over Dark Ritual and Tendrils of Agony. I have been playing a version of your list, but with Warrens and Burning Wish over Tendrils in the maindeck. Have you considered using Burning Wish instead and freeing up a slot where Dark Ritual would be?
     Burning Wish is a fine card, I just felt that there were many better maindeck options.  Specifically over Dark Ritual? I wouldn't cut a mana source for a non-mana source for utility reasons, only if I felt like the deck was running heavy on mana.  With that logic, the deck would be much better if I cut all of the mana and only ran draw spells.  This obviously does not work.  If I was going to run Wish anywhere, it would be over the Tendrils, but I don't think I'm planning on that any time soon.
Quote
I like would like to see a tournament report from your successful day. Even more so I am interested in an article on SCG based on your opinion of how to build Gifts today. Do you feel Tinker with Colossus would've helped you anywhere during the tournament, or is it simply inferior in your opinion?
     Unfortunately, I don't have anything resembling notes on the day, and writing a report is very unlikely.  I will, however, try to put together an SCG article, if time/energy/Craig allows.
Quote
The card I was most unsure of when seeing your list was Skeletal Scrying. I found that with 3Volcs-2 Seas you already ran a good deal of black spells and Scrying was the least important of the six cards. I have actually found myself missing black mana with your list (testing two days ago). This was one of the reasons I am now trying a Burning Wish instead of so much black. Either that or I'll try 3 Seas over 3 Volcanics.  Is this spell greatly important to your list, or could've it easily been Repeal #4 or another Scroll? Also, Repeal is nuts in this deck. I think running a full set is pretty optimal.
     This is really two very different questions but:  Skeletal Scrying is the leas favorite card of most people I know personally who try the deck.  I've always liked it, but people I respect get different results, and it certainly wouldn't be the end of the world to cut it.  The reason I run it over similar cards, (FoF, 4th Gifts, 4th Scroll) is that it's the best late-game topdeck, the other cards shine in other areas of the game, but the deck already performs well in those.
     As for black mana, there's a chance you're missing some simple plays that are critical to the deck, notably Repealing a Mox Jet to generate black, or DTing/Giftsing for Lotus/Ritual.  It's also possible I'm just luckier than you, but I haven't had many problems finding the necessary black (and I fetch for basics pretty aggresively).  The reason I'm running more Volcanics than Seas is that post-board, against the decks that have Wastelands, I'm usually bringing in red cards, and I don't want to be cut off from Rebs or Empty.





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« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2007, 04:41:20 pm »

Due to the fact I have no idea about MDG, and Repeal Gifts at that, what are some of the more common piles you search for that depend on the game state? Also, what is the most common four that you choose, as you would choose Will, Recoup, Walk, and Tinker in most other builds?

What I am asking is, with the removal of Tinker->DSC;7/10, what is the standard Gifts pile you select?

Oh, and lastly, congrats on your finish at TMD X.
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« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2007, 08:38:29 pm »

In response to wethepeople, as always gifts piles are game dependant, and like Kowal would say you just look through your deck and find the four best cards left. Often this includes lotus, will, recoup and tolarian or recall or something like that.

Empty doesn't really change how you play gifts, it's just a way of winning that doesn't put all your chips in as often as tinker does.
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« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2007, 09:39:10 pm »

In response to wethepeople, as always gifts piles are game dependant, and like Kowal would say you just look through your deck and find the four best cards left. Often this includes lotus, will, recoup and tolarian or recall or something like that.

Empty doesn't really change how you play gifts, it's just a way of winning that doesn't put all your chips in as often as tinker does.

Well in reality your opponent must fight multiple chips instead of one large one. 
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« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2007, 11:10:56 pm »

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Empty the Warrens (on it's own and specifically over Colossus)
Repeal (on it's own and specifically over Chain of Vapor)
Pyroblast/Tormod's crypt main (as opposed to Misdirection, Lava Dart, or Duress),
Skeletal Scrying (on it's own and specifically over Fact or Fiction)
and of course, Timetwister (on it's own, because seriously, what can you compare Timetwister to).
 

EtW:  This card obviously screams powerful and definitely deserves its shot in gifts.  It definitely provides you with your beatdown plan as opposed to tendrils, but it doesn't fix the problem of having to storm out.  Tinker/ colossus is a fine backup plan for when storming isn't going to work due to some obnoxious board position or whatever.  Why can't they both be played in the same deck?  What made you opt for using it over tinker as opposed to along with?

Repeal:  I like repeal in this deck.  It moves stuff that keeps you from storming which helps you cast your etw and tendrils, but again I can't help but wonder why it can't be played along with chain of vapor.  Chain is hands down one of the best bounce spells in the format and one of the best answers to a tinkered colossus or titan.

Scrying:  How is scrying for you in this deck?  It doesn't seem like card for card as powerful as fof.  It also seems a little more random of a card to have just because you can't scroll for it. 

Twister:  Timetwister is cool!!!  I don't know if it is good, but it is definitely cool.  I will be trying this one a little more.  But if twister is good enough for the deck, why not jar as well?

Also, did you try: Gush? I.Seal? Burning wish?
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« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2007, 11:32:01 pm »

if twister is good enough for the deck, why not jar as well?

Jar doesn't ruin your opponent's graveyard. Quite the opposite, actually. Also, it's more mana unless you dedicate two slots to it.
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« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2007, 04:49:38 am »

Did you ever play against someone with Trickbinds?  You board in 3x Duress against them, but do they help?
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« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2007, 04:45:05 pm »

Why Timetwister over Jar:

1)  Timetwister allows you to come back from a behind position while Jar does not.  Twister gives enemy new graveyard and hand.  It also allows you to win games that you shouldn't on the simple fact of being a draw 7.  Twister is absolutely broken.

2  You have the broken play of 1st turn Twister (which leaves you at serious board advantage, as you probably have two moxes and a land in play with the same number of cards as your opponent in hand) while 1st turn Jar does not accomplish this same thing.

3)  Timetwister pitches to Force if you're at an advantage.

4)  Timetwister recycles your threats.  You get to Ancestral and Time Walk all over again.  Yes, it resets your opponents threats too, but you get yours first, especially mid or late game.

5)  Timetwister also is only one slot, while Tinker+Jar is not.  You could argue that Jar is only one if you run Tinker+Colossus, however, that one slot is very important, imo.

Tinker
Jar
Colossus

vs.

Timetwister
Empty the Warrens

Personally, I don't play Timetwister or Empty the Warrens maindeck, and just use Burning Wish to get an extra slot.  This is actually the most important reason to me, but any of the above are valid.
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« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2007, 09:32:41 pm »

Personally, I don't play Timetwister or Empty the Warrens maindeck, and just use Burning Wish to get an extra slot.  This is actually the most important reason to me, but any of the above are valid.

I was wrong.  Empty needs to be mained over Wish.  The extra 1R is so significant that you'd be missing out on the notorious early-game potency of Empty the Warrens.  Wish decreases the value of Empty A LOT.

Timetwister has always been horrible, I don't even recommend keeping it sideboarded.  When exactly is it brought in?  Ichorid and the mirror?  There are strictly better cards for both matchups.

Andy, can you justify mained Crypt?  I've never liked cards that could potentially be dead in Gifts; a 2nd Blast, 4th Repeal, or 4th Scroll seems better in that slot.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2007, 10:36:33 pm by desolutionist » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2007, 09:37:37 am »

I agree with every point that evenpence shown and wanted to add :
in the control-combo mirror (or shoul i say Combo-control, considering where those decks developpement brought us) the timetwister can also be a huge reset button if your opponent manage to set up his Yogmoth's will faster than you. Not to mention the fact that an early timetwister can remove a good control hand from your opponent and force him to take a new one without a possible mulligan. Before my previous tourney, i tested both timetiwster, wheel of fortune and Tinker-->Jarr in a control combo deck, and timetwister has allways been the card i wanted, for defensive or aggressive purpose.

On a side note : I did a 5-2 record (should have been 5-1-1 if i didnt side out recoup in a game) last sunday with the deck in a 101 people tourney here in france. My list was a little bit different than Brassman one (Maindeck Gush (i recommend every one to test this out, its realy strong in the deck), Burning Wish, EtW + tendrils as kill, rebuild+Chain of vapor +2 repeal for the bounce suit) and i have been very happy with TimeTwister. A really huge addition. Im not sold to the maindeck crypt (it was a good choice but i didnt face any WGD or Ichorid deck, even if they were played alot).
The main strenght of this game is his fish matchup (a really problematic matchup here in france, because of sanctionned events)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 09:42:47 am by Neonico » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2007, 09:48:04 am »

Crypt is a pretty solid card no matter what deck you're playing.  It obviously is a complete house vs. dragon and ichorid, while at the same time it is a solid card against:

stax
control slaver
gifts
long
bomberman

What decks don't you use it against?  Oath and goblins?  It's obviously not a bomb in a lot of matchups, but it's not a dead card either
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« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2007, 12:01:27 pm »

Why was Mana Vault excluded from this deck? Did Dark Ritual directly take its place or was that choice separate from not playing Vault? Is it ever something you miss having?
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« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2007, 04:48:16 pm »

Why was Mana Vault excluded from this deck? Did Dark Ritual directly take its place or was that choice separate from not playing Vault? Is it ever something you miss having?


Having BBB is much better than having 3 colorless in the deck, basically you can run a dark rit if you feel that you can combo out with the deck on turns 1-3 and Cabal Rit allows you to combo out after the 3rd turn.  One of the two rits is needed in the deck to make certain cards more busted.
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« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2007, 06:02:40 pm »

Why was Mana Vault excluded from this deck? Did Dark Ritual directly take its place or was that choice separate from not playing Vault? Is it ever something you miss having?


Having BBB is much better than having 3 colorless in the deck, basically you can run a dark rit if you feel that you can combo out with the deck on turns 1-3 and Cabal Rit allows you to combo out after the 3rd turn.  One of the two rits is needed in the deck to make certain cards more busted.

I keep hearing this argument. While it might be true that Dark Ritual is a better card than mana vault I do not think it completely explains why you are cutting mana vault all together. For instance, we could run Mana Vault instead of the 3rd Volcanic, or Mana Vault instead of Lotus Petal, or simply run an extra mana source. I ran Mana Vault instead of Volcanic Island at a recent tournament with a lot of success. It enabled many fast wins with ETW. Maybe running mana vault is not optimal but I'm not convinced by the above argument.
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« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2007, 06:26:02 pm »

The main advantage of Dark Ritual over Mana Vault is that Dark Ritual can be cast out of the graveyard with Yawgmoth's Will. Mana Vault, once used, sits on the table dealing damage to you. In other words, when comboing off with Yawgmoth's Will, Dark Ritual is much stronger. Further, an attempt to win with Yawgmoth's Will in this deck usually demands a lot of black mana for Tendrils; Dark Ritual serves this purpose very well.

The advantage of Mana Vault is that it can be bounced with Repeal to turn 2U into 3 colorless mana. However, this is strictly worse than what any mox or a Mana Crypt does in conjunction with Repeal. And Dark Ritual doesn't stick around to deal a point to you every turn, either.

Mana Vault tends to be better in decks that play Tinker.
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« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2007, 07:16:57 pm »

I'll admit as a longtime Gifts player I was very leery of this list at first glace.  However, I decided to trust the Brass Man and give it a few test drives against a real opponent, and I'm glad I did.  The repeal/etw combination is ingenious: non-card-using usually-free bounce makes etw much less of a backbreaking setback than tinker should it fail (and probably less likely to fail, since you still have cards and stuff after you pass the turn), not to mention repeals are pretty good by themselves.  They often have a great tempo play if you keep an eye out.

I'd kinda like to analyse the play of targetting an opposing crypt with repeal on your opponent's end step with other mana available.  What is the correct play against this?  Countering it leaves them open to actual damage, letting it resolve risks you giftsing everywhere, and using crypt in response gives you a graveyard again.  This seems like a really tough call in most situations.  Is countering it really best, especially since that really only leaves you open to scrying, ancestral, and non-yawgwill storm shennanigans?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2007, 07:21:08 pm by Liam-K » Logged

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