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Author Topic: [Deck Discussion] Repeal Gifts  (Read 12022 times)
Machinus
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« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2007, 07:24:48 pm »

Mana Vault tends to be better in decks that play Tinker.

Thirst for Knowledge is also a strong supporting card.
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« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2007, 07:51:23 pm »

Mana Vault tends to be better in decks that play Tinker.

Thirst for Knowledge is also a strong supporting card.

Well, I believe rleidle was questioning why you are not running Mana Vault.  Not necessarily Mana Vault versus Dark Ritual, but perhaps in addition to.

Mana Vault, by all accounts, fits perfectly into the plan of wanting to cast an easy, early Warrens.  No?
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« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2007, 08:05:10 pm »

That is what I was questioning.

Mana Vault is one of your ways of obtaining 2 mana off a gifts, the others being: Lotus, Mana Crypt, and Dark Ritual. Mana Vault is synergous with Hurkyl's Recall, Rebuild, Repeal. I don't want to turn this into Dark Ritual vs Mana Vault, but more of, should Mana Vault be run at all? Is it better than a 2nd Dark Ritual (which I think is definately true).

For me I have a hard time "de-powering" the deck even to a small degree. I think it might come down to metagame. In a meta full of drains you might not want mana vault but in a fish/stax heavy meta it is a good card to have.
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« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2007, 08:19:47 pm »

That is what I was questioning.

Mana Vault is one of your ways of obtaining 2 mana off a gifts, the others being: Lotus, Mana Crypt, and Dark Ritual.
Academy?  If you really want gifts to be free storm, it may not be a spell but it's probably a misuse of a gifts anyway.
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« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2007, 03:07:48 am »

Mana vault makes first turn gifts much easier to do, thats what i'd consider the numero uno argument for its inclusion...

I hate arguments like "it adds to storm" since everything from urza's bauble to leviathan adds 1 storm.

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« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2007, 03:15:21 am »

In my articles on Gifts over the last few months, and particularly my articles on Gifts puzzles, Mana Vault was one of he most broken cards in Gifts.   A hand that has a Mox and Mana Vault or Mana Vault and Academy is frequently just going to win by turn 2.  I can't imagine how omitting Mana Vault could ever be correct.     

My view of the matter is simple: I would honestly cut Sol Ring before Mana Vault.  Honestly.  In Andy's deck.  Repeal on Mana Vault doesn't lose mana like one on Sol Ring does either. 

Read through these puzzles and it should be clear why: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13064.html

Quote
The main advantage of Dark Ritual over Mana Vault is that Dark Ritual can be cast out of the graveyard with Yawgmoth's Will. Mana Vault, once used, sits on the table dealing damage to you. In other words, when comboing off with Yawgmoth's Will, Dark Ritual is much stronger. Further, an attempt to win with Yawgmoth's Will in this deck usually demands a lot of black mana for Tendrils; Dark Ritual serves this purpose very well.


But a key difference between Grim Tutor decks and Gifts decks is that if you resolve Will with a Gifts deck you generally don't have mana trouble to win because you have Lotus, bounce spells, and some cards that you gifted for that you now get to play.   Replaying Dark Ritual just isn't necessary to winning with Will in Gifts, although it is nice.  On the contrary, Grim tutor decks don't have Gifts Ungiven - a card that denies you the two best cards every time - and thus it won't get a huge windfall when it casts Yawg Will like Gifts decks do.   Grim Tutor decks have to construct the win out of the graveyard with Will.   Gifts decks already have the Win built for them, the trick for them is getting to the Will in contrast. 
« Last Edit: January 20, 2007, 03:24:25 am by Smmenen » Logged

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« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2007, 11:28:22 am »

Smmenen, do you think that goldfishing puzzles may distort the value of certain cards in your deck?  While I understand that it's easy to look at Mana Vault in the abstact and value its 3 mana more than Sol Ring's 2, the consistant mana that Sol Ring provides over the course of the game is more important to me than Vault's temporary boost.  I would never cut Mana Vault, but it is the weakest mana acceleration piece in the deck.
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« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2007, 11:37:10 am »

I would never cut Mana Vault, but it is the weakest mana acceleration piece in the deck.

No that would be lotus petal...or lion's eye diamond if you run it.

Except for first turn drain mana, petal isn't all that exciting...and LED sucks without will.

/Zeus
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« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2007, 11:44:56 am »

I would never cut Mana Vault, but it is the weakest mana acceleration piece in the deck.

No that would be lotus petal...or lion's eye diamond if you run it.

Except for first turn drain mana, petal isn't all that exciting...and LED sucks without will.

/Zeus

Actually, Petal is that exciting: Petal for me has often provided that last source of R or B I needed to go off in the face of my opponent's Wastes.  I like Petal for its versatility, in that it gives Drain mana early and helps me go off late.
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« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2007, 01:11:14 pm »

I would never cut Mana Vault, but it is the weakest mana acceleration piece in the deck.

No that would be lotus petal...or lion's eye diamond if you run it.

Except for first turn drain mana, petal isn't all that exciting...and LED sucks without will.

/Zeus

Actually, Petal is that exciting: Petal for me has often provided that last source of R or B I needed to go off in the face of my opponent's Wastes.  I like Petal for its versatility, in that it gives Drain mana early and helps me go off late.

Okay, hmm it has never been all that good for me, although i suppose this might just be a preference.
It's obviosly good with will, but what isn't? There has been times where i've gifted for petal over say mana crypt or a mox, and i can't recall having gifted for mana vault all that often. I really like the ability to go land, mox, vault, gift though...its a really strong opening, atleast to my experience.

/Zeus
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« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2007, 02:39:45 pm »

you need lotus petal in the deck. There are far too many situations where you need black mana (and sometimes red) and you have to put petal, jet, lotus, in a pile. It is uncuttable.
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« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2007, 07:16:22 am »

what is the goal of this deck?

How does repeal fit into this? What is a common Empty storm count? And finally, is Empty a means to an end? Or is it just a setup card to give the gifts deck some more time to Will Combo out?

thanks
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« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2007, 08:35:14 am »

Repeal serves two purposes:
1.) Bounce opponent's stuff.  Thing like chalice at 0, meddling mage, can be quite annoying, and repeal does bounce them (some more efficiently than others).  It replaces itself, so it's groovy.

2.) Build storm.  You can bounce a mox and play it, giving yourself + 2 storm, and you draw a card so it's not even card disadvantage. 

Empty the warrens can win the game.  It's tough to beat 8-20 1/1 tokens, especially if your opponent time walks the same turn ETW gets cast.  You can use it to stall for time, but you're probably going to lose anyway then, since I can't see why even 6 1/1s don't win you the game half the time (I guess if you cast it to buy a turn vs. colossus, but that's not really the point).  Vs. Fish it can be a time-buyer, and vs. stax too, but just as often you'll kill them with those tokens
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« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2007, 11:06:16 am »

you need lotus petal in the deck. There are far too many situations where you need black mana (and sometimes red) and you have to put petal, jet, lotus, in a pile. It is uncuttable.

Didn't say i'd cut it, just that i think its the weakest accelerant in the deck.

/Zeus
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« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2007, 12:10:37 pm »

what is the goal of this deck?

How does repeal fit into this? What is a common Empty storm count? And finally, is Empty a means to an end? Or is it just a setup card to give the gifts deck some more time to Will Combo out?

thanks

Repeal enables the obvious "free" storm plays. Also, it is useful vs stax and fish for bouncing Chalices, Null Rods, Spheres, etc. Finally, it enables many techy plays like the following:

1. Your opponent ends their turn with 7 cards in hand, you repeal their mox. The opponent discards and you draw a card.
2. You are at 6 cards in hand with Library on the table, you repeal your own mox, you activate Library.
3. You cast mystical tutor during Yawgmoth's Will. Repeal your mox to draw the card off mystical tutor for "free".
4. You have mana crypt in play, cast repeal targetting mana crypt --> effectively you have spent one blue to gain two colorless and one storm.
5. Your drain opponent has 5 mana available, repeal one of their moxes. Now they are unable to hardcast Force of Will.
6. You Empty the Warrens for 12 and pass the turn with 24 tokens in play. Your opponent casts Echoing Truth targetting one of your tokens. You cast repeal targetting the same token. For one blue you counter Echoing Truth and draw a card.
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« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2007, 12:14:24 pm »

you need lotus petal in the deck. There are far too many situations where you need black mana (and sometimes red) and you have to put petal, jet, lotus, in a pile. It is uncuttable.

Didn't say i'd cut it, just that i think its the weakest accelerant in the deck.

/Zeus

I don't get this. I put it in gifts piles constantly. I'd rather cut emerald and pearl (and I often cut one of them when sideboarding). Why don't you put it in gifts piles over crypt or vault? It produces the same amount of mana when setting up a will, and you get the colour you want, + one storm extra. It helps getting drain online first turn.

Anyway, Empty the Warrens is great. I often cast it 1st or 2nd turn for 6 to 10 tokens and they often go all the way. People will adapt of course, and run echoing truth and engineered explosives. But it's far better than colossus. I removed colossus a while ago for sundering titan. It will take some time to adjust playing without cause I loved that guy. I'll need more testing to see if tinker-titan isn't needed.

I don't like the pyroblast maindeck, and I switched to one misdirection for now. Skeletal isn't that hot eather, but I'm still testing a good replacement (fact or fiction, deep analysis, ...). I am running both dark ritual and mana vault main and love that setup.
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« Reply #46 on: January 22, 2007, 03:07:25 pm »

you need lotus petal in the deck. There are far too many situations where you need black mana (and sometimes red) and you have to put petal, jet, lotus, in a pile. It is uncuttable.

Didn't say i'd cut it, just that i think its the weakest accelerant in the deck.

/Zeus

I don't get this. I put it in gifts piles constantly. I'd rather cut emerald and pearl (and I often cut one of them when sideboarding). Why don't you put it in gifts piles over crypt or vault? It produces the same amount of mana when setting up a will, and you get the colour you want, + one storm extra. It helps getting drain online first turn.


Yeah i use it when trying to go off with will, but when i'm just looking for mana to put me in a better board-position i'd much rather have a mox or a crypt. (For this purpose i usually go for Academy, crypt, lotus, mox - for pure storm and will i'd go for lotus petal, lotus, mana crypt, academy)

I don't get why you'd SB out artifact mana, regardless of what i'm playing against i want it all! If anything i'll SB a spell out for a land (sometimes i run 1 basic land in the SB to make the mana base even better against mana denial)

My experience with the card might differ from yours, i think its the weakest accelerant in the deck, but thats just my opinion...and i find mana vault to be NUTZ.

/Zeus

Edit: I have not tested with Dark ritual, so i have no idea if its a good idea to SB it out or not. Same goes for LED, but i honestly don't think i'll ever test that card in gifts, its way too weak outside of the will turn, which in itself is usually strong enough Wink
« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 12:51:40 pm by zeus-online » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: January 22, 2007, 03:30:23 pm »

Sometimes, on the draw in the control mirror it is not a bad idea to sideboard out mana accellerants. For instance, Dark Ritual is not very strong there.

Also, against decks packing chalice traditionally it was ok to cut a mox on the draw. However, with ETW being your main answer for chalice style decks I woudln't cut it.
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« Reply #48 on: January 22, 2007, 08:34:34 pm »

you need lotus petal in the deck. There are far too many situations where you need black mana (and sometimes red) and you have to put petal, jet, lotus, in a pile. It is uncuttable.

Didn't say i'd cut it, just that i think its the weakest accelerant in the deck.

/Zeus

I don't get this. I put it in gifts piles constantly. I'd rather cut emerald and pearl (and I often cut one of them when sideboarding). Why don't you put it in gifts piles over crypt or vault? It produces the same amount of mana when setting up a will, and you get the colour you want, + one storm extra. It helps getting drain online first turn.

Anyway, Empty the Warrens is great. I often cast it 1st or 2nd turn for 6 to 10 tokens and they often go all the way. People will adapt of course, and run echoing truth and engineered explosives. But it's far better than colossus. I removed colossus a while ago for sundering titan. It will take some time to adjust playing without cause I loved that guy. I'll need more testing to see if tinker-titan isn't needed.

I don't like the pyroblast maindeck, and I switched to one misdirection for now. Skeletal isn't that hot eather, but I'm still testing a good replacement (fact or fiction, deep analysis, ...). I am running both dark ritual and mana vault main and love that setup.

I'm testing Titan+Tinker in the board against control and Fish.  As to Pyroblast, I agree with you, and have been doing the same setup.  I'm currently running a slightly wierd decklist, and it's interesting to see how the deck plays out.  I'm considering making it a slightly utility style Merchant Scroll-based deck; that card is absolutely ridiculous, and having Repeal only makes it better.
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« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2007, 01:33:26 am »

Quote
I don't like the pyroblast maindeck, and I switched to one misdirection for now. Skeletal isn't that hot eather, but I'm still testing a good replacement (fact or fiction, deep analysis, ...). I am running both dark ritual and mana vault main and love that setup.

I could see cutting pyroblast, even though I think it's better than MisD personally.  As for Skeletal Scrying...

It's the stone cold nuts in this version.  While not the greatest in other, more focused builds of gifts, in Brassman's gifts it's just another way to win the game.  Repeal gifts comes at you so many different ways.  It could literally win the game 10 games in a row through totally different appraoches.  There's no strict gameplan that this deck abides by, and it has answers to pretty much all forms of hate because  it's not vulnerable to any single hate card.  Skeletal Scrying gets around Tormod's crypt very well, which is a very popular hate card for this deck and many others.  There are some customizeable slots in this deck for sure, but I'm pretty positive Scrying isn't one of them. 

I agree with playing both vault/ritual main, but I have no idea what you cut for it.

As for the 'how good is empty' questions... it's awful.  Cut it.  Go back to tinker/colossus.  I have an unbiased opinion on this matter and can unequivocally state an 11/11 indestructible robot is better than 10,000 puny 1/1 goblins.   

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« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2007, 10:41:06 am »

I could see cutting pyroblast, even though I think it's better than MisD personally.  As for Skeletal Scrying...

It's the stone cold nuts in this version.  While not the greatest in other, more focused builds of gifts, in Brassman's gifts it's just another way to win the game.  Repeal gifts comes at you so many different ways.  It could literally win the game 10 games in a row through totally different appraoches.  There's no strict gameplan that this deck abides by, and it has answers to pretty much all forms of hate because  it's not vulnerable to any single hate card.  Skeletal Scrying gets around Tormod's crypt very well, which is a very popular hate card for this deck and many others.  There are some customizeable slots in this deck for sure, but I'm pretty positive Scrying isn't one of them. 

I tested it in T1T/Intuitive/"Evenpence's deck whose name i refuse to type" once and it was really good at times, drawing 5+ cards really wins games, although it is pretty slow.

As for the 'how good is empty' questions... it's awful.  Cut it.  Go back to tinker/colossus.  I have an unbiased opinion on this matter and can unequivocally state an 11/11 indestructible big artifact is better than 10,000 puny 1/1 goblins.   

Vote tinker/colossus 2007!

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« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2007, 02:10:27 pm »

Quote
I don't like the pyroblast maindeck, and I switched to one misdirection for now. Skeletal isn't that hot eather, but I'm still testing a good replacement (fact or fiction, deep analysis, ...). I am running both dark ritual and mana vault main and love that setup.

I could see cutting pyroblast, even though I think it's better than MisD personally.  As for Skeletal Scrying...

It's the stone cold nuts in this version.  While not the greatest in other, more focused builds of gifts, in Brassman's gifts it's just another way to win the game.  Repeal gifts comes at you so many different ways.  It could literally win the game 10 games in a row through totally different appraoches.  There's no strict gameplan that this deck abides by, and it has answers to pretty much all forms of hate because  it's not vulnerable to any single hate card.  Skeletal Scrying gets around Tormod's crypt very well, which is a very popular hate card for this deck and many others.  There are some customizeable slots in this deck for sure, but I'm pretty positive Scrying isn't one of them.
I have an IRL test session tomorrow with the team, so I'll test the Skeletal Scrying some more. I think it will be better after siding, cause they usually bring in Red Elemental Blasts. Maybe I need to hold it back more instead of casting it for 2/3 cards. You do need another draw spell next to Ancestral and Gifts Ungiven, but for the moment, I'm not sure what that spell should be.

With cutting the Pyroblast, I was able to cut the third Volcanic Island and play a third Underground Sea like I've been doing for a year now. It's nice to have a third Sea with the Skeletal Scrying and the Dark Ritual. I can see that Pyroblast is the nuts main against control decks, but I think the "it's not dead, it's extra storm" is rather weak against Stax. I don't want to fetch 2 Volcanic Islands to play Empty the Warrens with one extra storm. It might also be a metagame thing. Over here, they love to attack the black mana base. They always waste the Underground Sea instead of the Volcanic Island, fearing a Yawgmoth's Will, so I'd rather have an extra Sea. This might change with Empty the Warrens.

I agree with playing both vault/ritual main, but I have no idea what you cut for it.

I wasn't sure what to cut, so right now I'm playing it instead of the Tormod's Crypt. I'm sure it is not the right card to cut. But I need more testing. I do not want to play it instead of another mana source (e.g. a land). This deck can use all the acceleration it can get.
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« Reply #52 on: January 24, 2007, 03:22:10 pm »

I cut a land for Mana Vault because I was always comfortable running 15 land + 10 artifact mana with traditional meandeck gifts. Really, the cut for mana vault in terms of going from MDGifts to this list is Library of Alexandria. I can't cut library though, as it is too powerful with many different ways to refill my hand.

I had success in one tournament only running the 15 land and I know some others have as well, for instance, BrassMan ran 14 lands at Gencon 2005 -- a field INFESTED with stax. He did ok I hear.
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« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2007, 01:07:09 am »

I cut a land for Mana Vault because I was always comfortable running 15 land + 10 artifact mana with traditional meandeck gifts. Really, the cut for mana vault in terms of going from MDGifts to this list is Library of Alexandria. I can't cut library though, as it is too powerful with many different ways to refill my hand.

I had success in one tournament only running the 15 land and I know some others have as well, for instance, BrassMan ran 14 lands at Gencon 2005 -- a field INFESTED with stax. He did ok I hear.

His land count is 15 right now, so if you cut a land, you'd only have 14 left. That's not enough if you ask me. I've been running 15 land for a long time, and I'm not comfortable with cutting any.
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« Reply #54 on: January 25, 2007, 01:12:01 am »

I had success in one tournament only running the 15 land and I know some others have as well, for instance, BrassMan ran 14 lands at Gencon 2005 -- a field INFESTED with stax. He did ok I hear.

Not to take away from his, my teammate's, tournament success, but I am fairly certain he didn't play stax until finals that day, and he lost. So any claim you're making about stax and the land count based on that tournament experience is probably incorrect. Andy should probably confirm this, but I am pretty sure he's said since then that against a field of stax the right thing to do would have been run another land.
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« Reply #55 on: January 25, 2007, 06:29:16 am »

Well, I hadn't noticed he cut another land. So basically he is running 24 "normal" mana sources and a Dark Ritual. In this case I would say running mana vault would probably be incorrect as it would place too much strain on the manabase.

I am a proponent of running his current manabase plus a mana vault -- metagame dependant. Probably is not necessary in a drain heavy meta.
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