WUb Fish: Deck Discussion

[saradoc]

In my opinion spell snare is one of the best options for side in fish. As said it helps against flsh, oath and mirror. Against GroAtog it is huge, it prevents you from the dryads and countering a merchant scroll is one of the best things you can do.

I don´t know why in the US sides (I am spanish) people don´t include honor the fallen against ichorid. I think it is better than leyline, because you don´t have to mulligan until you find it, you can just tutor or draw it. Once played it lets ichorid decks allmost destroyed, without dredgers and normally without bazaar because of oru strip effects. This situation forces them to wait till they have 8 cards in hand, which allows us to search for another honor or win the game.

I am also testing children of korlis in the main. They are a very good option against combo (what I suppose is going to rule in the new metagame) and also help against oath and darksteel colossus giving you one or 2 turns extra to find a sollution.

What do you think?

[the boogie man]

I think that leyline is more useful against more decks. you can side it in on the draw against combo, and it is useful against other decks.

[cheddercaveman]

Since we're on the fishy subject here, I'm curious about some of the cards to play in this build of Fish, and why to play them or not to play them...

Azorius Guildmage - 2/2 for 2, for 3 mana you can cut off a lot of relavant activated abilities if you have to, and for that same 3 mana we can tap a big threat all day, all the while swinging for 2.  Seems like perhaps some for some of the StP slots?  Just curious

True Believer - I know this guy was played before, any reason he's not still around?  Seems like maybe he's a little bit redundant with Meddling Mage, but I could still see him being reasonable

Savannah Lions / Isamaru - The U/W versions normally play both from what I've seen, commonly a 3/2 split in fact.  Thoughts?

Voidmage Prodigy - He's a walking counterspell, he turns Dark Confidant into a counterspell, the aforementioned guildmage, meddling mage (though I doubt i'd sack him) and so on.

Kataki, War's Wage - Again, in an environment where artifacts can get pretty crazy, seems like a guy who beats for 2 and hurts your opponent's manabase and/or board position would be good

Threads of Disloyalty - sideboard that seems better than old man, and they only cost like $2 to buy instead of $60+, also you get the creature right away.

Yixlid Jailer - I see it in some sideboards but not most mainboards.  A lot of decks use the graveyard, would this guy be ok as a 2-of perhaps in the main?  Leyline seems overall better in the side too since it stops a lot of other stuff.

Aven Riftwatcher - turning a fetch land into a cross your fingers and hope its near the top, and turning demonic tutor into a really slow impulse seems like it would be good for you, however it costs 3 which might be a bit much so what about ...

Shadow of Doubt - lots of tutoring and fetching in this environment, stopping that seems good and getting a card off it is pretty hot too!

Hymn to Tourach - classic hand disruption, any reason we don't use this in vintage to similar affect in vintage?

Thats just some of what i've got, feel free to comment please!

[Keno]

I played 3c Fish at a 51 player tournament today going 3W-1D-2L. This doesnt sound good at all but I still felt I had a shot in every game I played. Perhaps if I didnt have to mulligan something like 7 times in two rounds my record would have been better, but unfortunatly it wasnt ment to be. Since I still felt good about my deck I thought I'd share my list.

Matchups:

vs Stax: draw
vs Gush TPS: 0-2 (mulliganed to 5 and 6)
vs Gush TPs/w Oath sideboard: 1-2 (mulliganed to 5 and 5 in the games I lost)
vs Ichorid: 2-1
vs TPS/combo homebrew: 2-0
vs U/W Lion Fish: 2-1

Deck:

4 Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Kataki

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
2 Trickbind
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Undersound Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
3 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Energy Flux
3 Spell Snare
2 Echoing Truth
2 Jitte
1 Swords to Plowshares

If I had to do it over again the only thing I might have changed is adding Null Rod/Chalice to the main or sideboard for the TPS matchup, though I'm not sure its that great anymore. The cards I'd probably cut for Rod/Chalice are Trickbind, Aven Mindcensor or Kataki. Trickbind didnt show themselfs that much, where usefull when they did, but I'm not sure they belong. Null Rod might be better though I dont like cutting any more blue cards. Same goes for Kataki. He was fine/good when he was there, obviously nice against Stax, but Null Rod might have been better in a combo meta (atleast thats what my meta looked like from my perspective). Last, Aven Mindcensor was oke, but expensive. It would have been awesome at 2, but at 3 I missed a lot of opportunities to stifle my opponents fetchlands and tutors.

The sideboard was great, I had a 'plan' for every matchup, always having something usefull to put in instead of just replacing bad cards with slight less bad cards. Spell Snare, while not showing up that much, was a great catch-all card.

Question about a situation that happenend game 1 round 1:

I mulligan into Island, Flooded Strand, Underground Sea, Duress, Kataki and Confidant. I start and play Sea > Duress seeing:

Mox Diamond
Tolarian Academy
Ancient Tomb
Crucible of Worlds
Sphere of Resistance
Metalworker

My first instinct was to take the Crucible, but after thinking about it a little I took the Sphere since it was his only lock piece. I also figured that Kataki could buy me some time while I would draw cards with my Confidant.
T1 he playes Mox + Tomb, discards Academy and casts Crucible. I play Kataki, he pays with Tomb, plays Academy and casts Metalworker. I play Confidant, Wasteland his Academy. I pass, he pays with Metalworker, and then playes Smokestack. Next turn he has a Tangle Wire and I get locked out.

My Question: should I have take the Crucible instead of the Sphere?

[Everrid1234]

My current list:

4 Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Kataki
2 Aven Mindcensor

3 on-color-Moxen
1 Black Lotus

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Echoing Truth
3 Daze
3 Null Rod
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Mystical
1 Vampiric

3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Undersound Sea
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void (I dont like this mulliganing, but against Ichorid there is not other chance. I Ichorid weren't there I would play T. Crypt for sure)
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Swords to Pl
1 Kataki
2 Jitte
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Disenchant
1 Stifle


What would you say, is it good for the current meta?

Verbal Warning for rule (4), Lack of Content. Posting just a deck list and throwing it to the wind isn't good. Please elaborate on any unusual card choices or quantities that you've included, any cards you intentionally left out, and what issues you're having with the list. You gotta do some of the work.

-Zherbus

Ok.
The deck tries to be able to beat each kind of deck. So thats the reason why I put so much against aggro in the SB. A pithing needle should't keep me away from winning. Against decks which play needles i would board in 1 Disenchant, Swords, Jitte, Jotun. This turns this Fish deck into an Aggro deck.
Against combo there is Stifle main and SB the Chants and a Duress. 2 Stifle Main are not much but I think i tried to squeeze in everything and since Dazes are nice but not overwhelmingly nice i reduced them by 1 and also went down to 3 with the Grunts so there was place for Stifles which increase Combo-Matchups very nicely (which would be a bit of a problem without Stifle Main).
Against control the confidants let me succeed, along with the duresses.

I think there is not a real problem matchup since against each kind of deck there is already a lot of solution Main and much more SB. Strong Aggro and burn with Pithing Needle against the Jittes are strong enemies, also Control decks which kill the Confidants fast.


Things I would like to stuff into the SB:

SB: Old Man of the Sea, 1 Stifle

[The Duressed]

To those who have tested null rod, what has been your experience with it? The most relevant matchup in just about every metagame is probably going to be GAT, so I'm especially interested in that. Thanks.

[hauntedechos]

I find that NULL ROD is much more irrelevent these days.  The speed of the format is such that, a null rod sittin on the table shutting off moxen, isn't really pulling it's weight.  Yes, against Stax, it's still wonderfull in conjunction with Kataki.  honestly I am enjoying the 3 slots for other, more potent card choices.

That's just my opinion, I would like to know how others are feeling about NullRod these days.

cheers
Mike

[jeffthefob]

I don't think Null Rod is one of the skeleton piece of Fish anymore.  Ever since the reemergence of GAT, Null Rod isn't as effective anymore.  Rod doesn't shut off enough articles in GAT compared to Gifts is an example.

Fish is a deck that adapts to the metagame, and Null Rod gets the kick in the current meta for me.  The list that Dxfiler used and the two list at Eudo's Black Lotus tourney are pretty standard WUB Fish lists.  Mine list is pretty similar to that.

Cheers ^_^

[sushicutta]

I prefer Magus of the Unseen http://magiccards.info/5e/en/102.html over Null Rod.

1. You can catch bombs with it. --> Mind Slaver, DSC, Crucible,

2. It gives a little more aggro backup, just a little more

3. Yet another FoW, Missdirection target!

I know that it doesn't really help against GAT, but I think three of it would be a nice choice.

[wethepeople]

Although I have not played much Vintage lately, or even looked at Fish, Lorwyn's "Thoughtseize" has been rather persuasive. I plan to test the new Duress in future builds of UWb when given the time. What do you guys think?

[arik124]

Since Null Rod probably should not be run, one can take advantage of Trinket Mage and friends.  This adds quite a bit more versatility than null rod, and gives access to Explosives and Crypt.  Also Grunt should be Aven Mindcensor. 

[The Duressed]

Grunt is absolutely a house. He's a 4/4 beatstick that, while you don't necessarily play him turn 1 or 2, can completely turn the tide of a game. He clears opposing graveyards of threats like Gush (being against a 4-Gush yard during a Yawgmoth's Will turn is bad times) or the combo pieces for bomberman. Especially in this deck that doesn't establish a clock on turn one (I don't run a single 1-drop creature in my black-splash build), this guy can easily be your win condition.

Running the trinket mage setup in a deck like this is tough. It requires 3 or 4 slots just for the mages, and then another 3 (at least) for you mage targets. Never in my life have I looked at my build and thought "Oh, well i could cut these 7 cards no prob." And while I'm not advocating the idea that if you want to play trinket mage you should just play bomberman, I think that the mage requires a very significant commitment in terms of deck space, and in my experience, that commitment would be far too significant. He's also rather slow (at a CMC of 3) and doesn't really have immediate effects on the game state like an Aven Mindcensor would. But what do I know? If you think it's a good idea, go out and test it and let us know how it goes.

Shifting gears a bit, it seems to me that it'd be totally silly to run Duress when Thoughtseize is available. With the meta such as it is, ripping a Dryad away from a hand just seems too good not to run, plus it improves the matchup against decks like Fish or Bomberman (depending on the game state and the opponent's grip). I'd personally, at the very least, exchange 4 Duress for 4 Thoughtseize. Tossing in more Duresses is a possibility, but I wouldn't go with it immediately. As i said, deck slots are hard to come by, and you might just decide to devote the slots that might take in the extra Duresses to other hate cards like Mindcensors or even Stifles.

Edit: I said that Grunt is really good, but I don't think he's better than Mindcensor. I run them both, honestly. Grunt is great to beat down and reduce the opponent's options in terms of Yawgmoth's Will or some sort of graveyard shenanigans (stax leaps to mind), but I also find Mincensor to be totally sick against any deck that plays search effects. It makes fetchlands bad, Merchant Scroll awful, and turns a Demonic Tutor into an Impulse. And if you want to improve your flash matchup, just jam a couple of these guys into the maindeck and maybe run a little acceleration. When flash was all over the place, my matchup was actually really, really good as long as I could make it past my turn 1 (which isn't all that rare with 4 Forces, 3 Dazes, and 3 Duresses). Sure I lost to the nuts, but everyone loses to the nuts. That doesn't mean that my matchup didn't improve. Mindcensor is totally insane in so many ways.

[hauntedechos]

Tossing in my 2cents,

I agree, that since scrolls are abound and of course fetches as well; mindcensor is the most relevent creature that U/W/B fish as to offer.  Grunt is a solid beater, and true it can upset the g/y of will weileding opponents (as well as Ichorid to a lesser extent), but the meta isn't as excited about ichorid anymore.  Flash is so fast, that it makes ichorids head spin (aside from the hand killing effects of ichorid that is) and GAT is so solid and has so many outs it's sickening.  Aven really tosses the wrench into thier plans doesn't it.  it's almost the card that opponents have to say no to these days.  auto include.

As for the thought seize issue, I think that Fish has to be as agessive as possible these days, and I'd commit 1-2 slots of Daze to proactive cards like this.  Although I have not tested this possibility, I think that 5+ duress effects would be following the ichorid example.  Who really likes facing off against ichorid, knowing they can tear "the nuts draw" out of your frish hand?  if Fish can adopt this pro active approach to every match, that significantly helps us.  We've all talkied about Daze and it's beautiful early effect, and lack luster late game effects.  Finding another wy to keep up your U count, while tossing in 1-2 of these, would be a great bolster to the solid "no" plan.

On trinket mage, I agree.  requires too much commitment of artifacts.  Also these peices have to be bombs on thier own, I mean if you rip out solid fish cards for support cards, then they better really buy you time.  true that explosives and friends can effect the game state, but I don't feel confident enough in them to deconstruct solid builds for them.  Perhalps in a fish build, built around trinket, you can get somewhere, but as mentioned above, why not play bomberman at that point?

anyways, just my 2 cents, and what do I know anyways.

cheers Vintage players
Mike

[The Duressed]

If Engineered Explosives is your reason for running Trinket Mage, I'd advise you to think again. Engineered explosives can do some bad things to the field because it destroys Goblin tokens from Empty the Warrens, or because maybe you cast it with 1 color and plan to take out a Carrion Feeder or set of Virulent Slivers, but there's a much better option: Echoing Truth. It still destroys the Goblin tokens and still totally blows out the Virulent Slivers and Kiki-Jiki copies, much in the same way that EE does, except it can be cast at instant speed, for as much as 4 less mana (including the cost of a Trinket Mage).

Playing the extra Duress effects instead of a couple Dazes is a pretty interesting idea, and it's certainly not categorically "wrong." However, the beauty of a card like daze is that you can spend your first 2, 3, even 4 turns making all sorts of insane plays and tapping out every turn, while still having Daze as a possibility. It obviously isn't good all the time, and requires some skill and timing to use properly, but the tone and tempo of every single game are defined in the opening turns. If it weren't for the fact that you don't have to pay Daze's mana cost, I'd probably run Spell Snares instead (at least in the current meta).

One last thing to really drive home how nuts Aven Mindcensor can be: for a while now, decks have been trying to maindeck silly hate cards like Magus of the Moon. However, the problem with guys like him is that he has 2 toughness, and GAT has so many ways to tutor for a response (namely, Fire / Ice), especially since against a deck like yours, you can expect to see them fetch for a basic Island pretty early. Merchant Scrolls, Mystical Tutor, Vampiric Tutor (in response), and Cunning Wish are all cards that you can expect them to use to find an answer against a Magus that'd potentially hose them. Getting to my point: The real beauty of Aven Mindcensor is not only that he messes up all sorts of things like Merchant Scroll, fetchlands, and other tutors, but that they can't even use those tutor effects to find a card to take care of your bird. It's a massive, massive tempo swing, so good that even if this effect hit me too, I'd still run them.

[hauntedechos]

directed to Duressed:  I agree to your point of Daze and it's alt casting cost.  I have enjoyed Daze in all kinds of matchups, but like you said, it takes timing and becomes incrementaly worse as the turns go on.  My point was only to bolster the duress effect, which almost never loses it's potency.  true, this requires you to actually spend the mana for it, but I think that the direct effect it more powerfull than trying to find a time to use the Daze.  Many people have a love hate relationship with Daze, for obvious reasons.  playing Duress effects forces your opponent into all kinds of decisions, and many of these can provide the same tempo gain, if not more so, as Daze can.  The offset is that you have to spend B, when perhalps you want to tap out for a creature.

tapping out can signal different things to different players, and this is where Daze attempts to bait your opponent into over extending, or tapping out.  This is some work on your part.  Casting a Duress effect has an immediate effect that does not require the timing of Daze, and may even provide you with a visual tell, if your opponent really didn't want to see you play it.  And let's face it, if they blow a counter over it, great, because we don't have many and we want to bring them down to our level.  If they don't then great, you snag a card that may be huge.  Of course you may find them on a turn with no counter in hand, great again.  What we all want in addition to these facts, is information!  Daze does not give us that.  As a final thought, a threat ripped out of your opponents hand now, is a counter saved for later.

again, just my two thoughts on it.

Cheers
mike

[The Duressed]

While I agree that the raw effect of Duress is much better than that of Daze, there's one real aspect with which I take issue. The truth of the matter is that a deck like WUb Fish tries to extend the turns into the long game, and win with a creature that doesn't necessarily have very spectacular power. What this means is that, when you're winning the game, your opponent can end up in topdeck mode. When this is the case, the word "sorcery" becomes so incredibly important. Yeah, sure, instants are always better than sorceries. However, ripping a duress in topdeck mode is pretty crappy, since your opponent is probably going to just play their spells as soon as they draw them. While this is usually a pretty good game state for the Fish, I feel that I've lost far too many games off a bomb ripped from the top. Seriously, people have just been sitting back in their chairs doing the draw-go, and then they rip a card and it's just like, "oh, by the way.... kill you?" Were it not for the fact that we only run 4 real counterspells in the maindeck, it wouldn't be a very frequent issue and thus less relevant. I'm not really taking a stance that one is better than the other, honestly. What I do think, though, is that in a situation like I just described, I'd much rather have, say, a Red Elemental Blast or some semi-situational counter like that. I think that's why I used to run as many as 3 Stifles maindeck: they take care of fetchlands in the early game, but still are worthwhile against any kind of storm, or maybe a Protean Hulk trigger.

Summing up: Both are really good in the early game, but I honestly think that both can be pretty crappy in the late game, which is why I run 3 of each in my most recent list. Is there some other option, in terms of a hard counter or good disruption effect for the late game that's still reasonable during the early game?

I've been trying out URBana Fish lately, simply because it has more options in terms of hard counters. Red/Pyroblasts, Spell Snares, and more. I like both versions, for different reasons, and I'm not sure yet which version I'm going to take to the Jet/Library tourney in Harrisburg in a couple weeks.

[Everrid1234]

Imo Daze isn't overwhelmingly good but its as good as a very fast counter can be.
There ARE indeed situations where Daze is very nice, for example protecting an early Ancestral or Confidant (Confidant is the Key for Fishdecks to win btw) from a nerving Mana Drain for example.
BUT if your opponent plays well he knows how to play around Daze. He knows that you play Daze, but this keeps him from playing too fast. He always leaves a mana source open.....
The problem is Fish desperataly NEEDS counters, and they should cost maximum 1 or have alternate cost. And if you drop Daze you only have FoW. Since pitching is only a solution against very good cards the opponent plays you definitely need something in addition. Only 4 counters is not enough.
The best counter besides FoW and Daze is Spell Snare. But it costs 1 what makes a difference. Important targets: Merchant Scroll, Mana Drain, Demonic Tutor, Oath, Dryad and Flash. Imo Snare is too situational to be very good. Fish wants to tap out.
Stifle is a nice option but if you don't play in Tendrils/ETW/Flash-metas its often a bit wasted space. In UW Fish Stifle is a lot better because there is not Duress, for which you tap out.

So there is only Daze, being able to (possibly) protect you from turn 1 Trinisphere, Smokestack, Turn 2 Mana drain (while you are dropping a Confidant) or something like 1 st turn land mox mox Tinker. Of course, in some situations it just does nothing but i think it helps more then Spell Snare. And since there are no other counters fitting into Fish, I suggest 2-3 Dazes.

Thougtseize is a very nice card, but with Confidant in the deck it's questionable in my eyes as a 4-of. At the end of a match i'm often around 5 life. Maybe something like 2-3 Thoughtseize and 2-3 Duress.
Instead of 4 Duress 3 Daze i could imagine to play something like 2 Toughtseize 3 Duress 2 Daze.

Aven Mindcensor is good but a bit too expensive imo. Merchant Scroll comes a lot faster than Aven. I'm not sure about him. It's a cool imagination, playing vs Tendrils, dropping Aven and he can't go for massacre anymore. But these decks are so fast....I think this plan often won't work.

Anyways, I have actualized my decklist, feel free to post suggestions.

[The Duressed]

Everrid:
I don't mean to be rude, but how much have you tested Aven Mindcensor? In my experience (in playing him as a 3-of) he hasn't been overly slow. He certainly isn't the first-turn play I'd love him to be, but if you get him onto the table, any deck that plays tutors has to stop and re-evaluate their entire game plan. It's such a tempo killer. Clearly it won't work against other archetypes that don't focus so much on a combo, so it depends on your meta.

More important than anything else, as we all know, we're playing a metagame deck, and it needs to be tuned accordingly. Aven Mindcensor is not simply going to work in every single game store.

I'll continue my search for the obscure card that's as good as Daze in the early game and still fine in the late game. 

[Everrid1234]

Hi Duressed,

I don't feel offended. As I said, Mindcensors effect is great, but I think you need to add further Moxen (off-color) or Lotus Petal to make him effective. That means reducing cards somewhere in the deck.
Would you post your build?

Greetings, Everrid

[Prometheon]

I'm going to go ahead and share some tech:

If you run Jotun Grunt, run Demonic Consultation. It is completely friggin broken. It is incredibly versatile, cheap, and powerful. I have Consulted for Stifle, FoW, Daze, Tundra, Meddling Mage, Confidant and other cards. It makes your entire deck more consistant, and there is also the stellar play of Consulting for a card you don't play (I suggest Tarpan) when you have a Jotun Grunt in play and Time Walk in your graveyard. Run this card!

[The Duressed]

First of all, here's the list (pre-Lorwyn):
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Aven Mindcensor
(14) creatures
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Duress
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Echoing Truth
2 Stifle
(14) control cards
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
(9) card advantage/quality
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
(23) mana sources

3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Echoing Truth
2 Trickbind
2 Energy Flux
1 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Yixlid Jailer
(15) sideboard

I've been cutting Stifles slowly for a while now. They just seem to have been getting less and less good, especially now that GAT is the premier combo deck.

I've found that the tutors, yes even the card disadvantage ones, have been very good for me. They allow me to run singleton Swords to Plowshares and Echoing Truth maindeck, but can also help me find any number of cards I might need. Tutoring for a Dark Confidant is not an awful play, nor is searching up an Aven Mindcensor. They also find Stifle for me (running only 2 stifles, I don't expect to see one every game) if I need them to.

Lotus Petal hasn't been absolutely stellar, but it definitely can speed things along, and I usually like to see it when I look at my opening hand. The only time I dislike it is probably in a 0-land or Petal-Mox hand, but that'd be the case with any off-color mox anyway. It seems to be fair color fixing, which is never a bad thing in a 3-color deck.

I'm happy with my sideboard, more or less, but the Stax match up is pretty frustrating. It hasn't been terribly prevalent in my meta, so that's why I've only got 3 sideboard slots for it. But Flash seems to be on the decline, so perhaps i could cut some of my Flash hate for more Stax support.

The Demonic Consultation + Jotun Grunt trick seems interesting, but risky, and because of the fact that I like to tutor for singletons, it just doesn't seem to be as good of an idea.
edit: The reason I say that it's risky is because, with GAT being so prevalent, people are showing up to matches with maindeck ways to deal with creatures, bounce being especially popular. It does seem like a fair enough way to increase your card quality, but that requires you to have already cast those good spells and not won the game yet.  It just feels like win-more to me.


I'm not married to my current list; in fact, I'm quite sure that there's some room for improvement. The first thing that I'll have to do is to figure out what role I'll want Thoughtseize to play for me.

[Everrid1234]

Consultation? All the cards which are revealed are removed, not put in the grave? What's the tech with Grunt?

Thoughtseize: I don't think it willplayed as a 4-of in Fish. Maybe in Combo-decks, but fetching, Confidant and Thoughtseize is too much. Its misdirectable. I would take out a creature in maybe 5-10% of all cases. Taking a Dryad? No, never. I take the draw spells. It's good but....everyone has to decide for himself.

Duressed, your deck looks good, the problems you have with Stax occur because you miss Null Rod and Kataki main. But in the current meta for most of the decks these 2 are a bit useless....so...
How did Energy Flux work? For me it was always 1 mana too expensive. I don't play it and try too keep a FoW for the Chalice 2.
I often thought about playing a basic island but actually I never wanted to fetch for a basic. The point is that you desperately need 3 colors turn 2. Sure, Magus is in the new decks. And Brainstorming (though not being able to fetch), Mystical for E. Truth can help. But i'm just not sure how often you fetch for Island in the early turns. I'm not sure about this.

[The Duressed]

The super mad crazy Grunt and Consultation tech entails removing your library from the game, then using the Grunt to recur the good spells in your hand or that you've already played, thus stacking your deck and improving your card quality. As I said, it seems like win-more.

Stax definitely used to be an amazingly easy match, but that was, as you said, in the days of maindeck Kataki and Null Rod. These days, I'm not sure which direction I want to go with my anti-Stax sideboard. I feel like 3 or so Pithing Needles could be really good, and also could improve other match ups (Ichorid, or possibly a mirror playing Waterfront Bouncer).

Not maindecking the Island and then losing to it just makes me think "Well, wow, I must be some kind of idiot or something." There are still wastelands in the format, from both Stax and Fish (almost every fish variant plays at least 2 or 3).

As for Kataki and Energy Flux, well, they don't win games by themselves. I also end up leaving in my original Swords to Plowshares and adding either 1 or 2 more in, to take care of the opponent's Welders or win conditions. I need to re-work my sideboard strategy, quite definitely. I haven't put much thought into it recently because I've been looking more into URBana, but this weekend I'll re-evaluate my sideboard strategy and composition and report back in with what I come up with. If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to know how you handle the Stax matchup as well. Thanks

[wethepeople]

Aven Mindcensor is good but a bit too expensive imo. Merchant Scroll comes a lot faster than Aven. I'm not sure about him. It's a cool imagination, playing vs Tendrils, dropping Aven and he can't go for massacre anymore. But these decks are so fast....I think this plan often won't work.

Fish being a deck that pumps out cheap threats early in the game, I haven't had much of a problem getting to the third turn to cast Mindcensor. (With the exception of ridic Hulk Flash openers.) I am currently running four Moxen as a personal default, but part of me wants to go as far as to run a full set. In theory, the added acceleration should help me consistently land Mindcensor after my second turn, though I have not yet tested this configuration too extensively.

I've traditionally had a love-hate relationship with Daze. With all of these Vintage decks running such fragile mana bases, it has been easier than ever to abuse the dirt cheap ability. Seeing Merchant Scroll cast on turn two is such a common play in this metagame that Daze feels perfect, yet after turn two it's best use is usually just being pitched to Force of Will.

I haven't been running any Stifles lately, but rather a configuration of 5-6 Duress effects. Playing Thoughtseize over Stifle seems like the correct switch, because turn one I generally want to have a Duress, if not Stifle. Never both. An opening hand with both is awful, because if you start with Duress, you lose your one chance to Stifle their fetchland. If you sit back and plan for Stifle, it's so obvious that they can simply wait to activate it.

Kobefan's "WU Tang Wizards" plays an indefinite board of two Kataki/Needle/Disenchant-effects, and an additional basic land. Using that I was often times able to stall them until I could land the real board sweeper- Energy Flux. With two basic lands post-board, getting three mana isn't too incredibly difficult. I am looking at a similar plan of 2-3 Needles, 1-0 basic Plains/Island, and two Energy Fluxes in the side. Needless to say, Pithing Needle makes Ichorid and less-mainstream builds of Hulk Flash much better.

I haven't been able to test the deck enough over the past couple weeks to share, or even determine my meta's optimal list, but I will be given much more free time over the next month or so to test. The Duressed's list looks to be on the right track.

[The Duressed]

Well, I put some thought into it and this is what i came up with:

Maindeck:
-2 Stifle
+2 Thoughtseize

Not many surprises here. Thoughtseize just seems better, but I'm pretty happy with the rest of the maindeck

Sideboard:
-Everything
+3 Kataki, War's Wage
+4 Leyline of the Void
+3 Pithing needle
+3 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Trickbind

I didn't even bother posting what I took out of the side, because it's pretty irrelevant. I wasn't happy with what I had, and this just seems way better. The only notable exclusions might be Echoing Truths, but fear not! Trickbind and Swords cover any slack left behind by that loss. It took care of goblin tokens, but Trickbind does that. It took care of Dryads (sort of), but Swords does that better. I also switched from the Jailers to the Leylines because, while Jailer does less damage to you when drawn from a Bob, that scenario is unlikely and/or not relevant. If you've gotten to the point where you're concerned about Bob damage, you've probably already won. It's vulnerable to the Emerald Charm-esque answers that Ichorid comes up with, but the real deal that I keep coming back to is simple: the raw speed just makes it better. You have countermagic for their anti-hate spells. And if they go nuts and get a crap ton of zombie tokens on the board by turn two, that Yixlid Jailer of yours probably looks pretty silly. You can counter the anti-hate, but you can't counter Bazaar activations. End of story.

[Dxfiler]

I forgot about this thread...sorry about that :p

There's alot of good stuff in here.  Let me say off the bat that kataki should probably go main once Lorwyn is legal.  Stax, while strong right now, is unqestionably going to be a top tier deck post lorwyn.  I just came back from Ray's mini-waterbury and top 8 had 5 stax... and they all plan on running thorn of amethyst when it becomes legal.

I've been really struggling with UBW fish lately but I think it's in good shape post lorwyn.  I'm not thrilled with stifle so thoughtseize seems like the logical replacement.
I think you need at least 18 blue cards maindeck though so it's sticky trying to work things out.

Let's breakdown all the cards...

The must plays:

4 Confidant- The deck is built around these.

4 Brainstorm 

4 Force of Will

3-4 Daze- As I've said before, this is the aggressive version mana drain.  I'm pretty sure 3 is the right number but a high amount of one drops could definitely make 4 daze reasonable.

2-4 Swords to Plowshares- Dead against virtually no top performing deck in the format.  Poor against empty combo (although many run maindeck tinker/colossus now)
and terrible against Ichorid, that's about it.  2 is the bare minimum (and I'm trying to fit a third in somewhere) and 3 seems optimal maindeck.  I think you must run a full complement between maindeck and sideboard.  Right now I'm at a 2/2 configuration. 

1-2 Echoing Truth- Yes, I think plow and truth need to play in the same sandlot.  I don't like Echoing truth but it's too valuable because a) it's blue and b) it's the only card able to stop ETW maindeck that you'd want to run.  I think 1 etruth is fine if you play mystical.  Two if you don't.

2-4 Aven Mindcensor- Before the card was legal I thought he wasn't worth it... man was I off on that one :p  This card is fantastic, although I am concerned with how good it will be if/when stax explodes as the deck to beat, which I feel it will.  I was at 4 for a long time, but now I'm down to 3 and I'm quickly considering just 2.  It depends how things develop in the next few weeks with Lorwyn and stax particularly.

3-4 meddling mage- I was at the point where I'd never consider dropping under 4, but I could actually see 3 being played right now.  They are great with duress and thoughtsize but it's still tricky to always get it out there on turns 1-2 because you're 3 colors.  The main reason I want to keep 4 is because it's blue, but with Kataki being pushed into the main I think 3 might be fine.


2-3 Jotun Grunt- Again another card that's been noething short of amazing for me over the years but he's not in his prime.  Think of this guy as Randy Moss.  He may not be in his prime, but you throw to him if there's a full graveyard and no one is covering, but if there's no early graveyard action he just sits there and can't do much so you throw to someone else like meddling mage or mindcensor.  That analogy was terrible :p

3-4 Duress- How many you play is directly related to how many thoughtseize you run.  I'm somewhere in the camp of of 2-3 duress and 2-3 thoughtseize.  I think thoughtseize is worth it but you don't want to run more of those than duress for the 2 life alone.  Too many thoughtseizes can mean insta-death off a bob flip.
I'm thinking 3 duress 2 thoughtseize but it's early.

Ancestral/walk/lotus/3 on color mox- Play these :p


The maybe plays-

Stifle- Right now I think stifle isn't worth it, but I have a love/hate affair with the card.  Thoughtseize just seems better in what was the 2X stifle spot but maybe you run both if there's room.  I just don't think the spots for stifle are worth it anymore.  It's best use was as a card you sided out constantly, and I don't think that's good enough to keep him main.  I have new sideboarding plans against decks that I'm going to mention (keep reading ) where not having stifle as the easy take out card means nothing.  UBW fish has so many different threats maindeck now that there are easy cards to side out in pretty much every matchup.

Mystical tutor- I'm actually for this card right now...but not everyone is.  With the disruption base fish has, one tutor making the maindeck seems fine.  Although demonic and vamp are strictly better, I think mystical is the only one that should make the main because it's blue.  Color unfortaunately does play a major role here.  Also mystical grabs a fantastic surprise card that I think you could make a case for running...

Extirpate- This card might be worth it as a one-of just for the surprise value.  If you can waste someone's land then play this on them it will own them.  It also gives you a snowball's chance in hell of beating Ichorid game one.  That game one is still awful, but this can possibly save you if you hit ichorid or dread return at the right time... still, you're probably looking at games 2-3 against them.  I'm not personally running it but I think the card has plenty of potential value. 

Smother- Another nice silver bullet card.  I don't think you'd ever want to run more than one maindeck in addition to plow and e-truth, but it's a fantastic board card.

Demonic Tutor- It's amazing but I personally don't think it's needed.  You'll usually be grabbing cards you have multiples of unless you haven't already casted ancestral.
The deck is so stacked at the 2 mana slot right now that I don't think it's worth running unless you have a high maount of silver bullets, such as Extirpate.

Thoughtsize- This card did not make my must-play list because I don't think you HAVE to run it.  It's strong but getting black mana up turn 1 can be tricky and again, the interaction with bob is not the best :p  Still, I think this card is worth running and right now 2 feels like the optimal number to me.

The please don't play's :p

Misdirection- Great card as a one-of but horrible in BUW fish strictly because of dark confidant.  You don't want another 5 drop to die to.  The potential of flipping off a Force is scary enough.  5 Damage is a hell of alot to take.  The other reason I don't think this card is worth running is because the blue count is tight right now.  Misdirection is best in a 20+ card blue count.  UBW fish struggles to get over 18, which I feel is the minimum number of blue cards you want to play just to consistently get off a Force of Will.

Vampiric Tutor- In this deck, it's strictly worse than Mystical tutor.  The 2 life is bad enough, but most cards you get are the same you'd get with mystical.  Very rarely would you be in a position where the best tutor target is clearly a creature.  Add to this that vampiric isn't blue and I think it's just not worth running ever over mystical or demonic.

Stormscape Apprentice- You don't have room for this card.  Every single creature you'd play over this is strictly better, and every card in the one drop slot is better than him, too.  Thoughtseize, Brainstorm, Ancestral, Duress are all better plays on turn 1 every single time.  Plow is another one drop but you don't usually have to cast it on turn 1.  Stormscape just feels like a mulligan and to me his strongest asset is being blue, but I don't think that's good enough to warrant him playing.

So I broke down all the cards... here's what I'd play (and probably will play as soon as next week)-

Lorwyn legal WUB fish:

// Lands
    3  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Flooded Strand
    1  Polluted Delta
    1  Island
    4  Tundra
    4  Underground Sea

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    2  Jotun Grunt
    4  Meddling Mage
    3  Aven Mindcensor
    2  Kataki, War's Wage

// Spells
    4  Force of Will
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Time Walk
    3  Duress
    1  Mox Jet
    3  Daze
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Lotus Petal
    2  Swords to Plowshares
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Echoing Truth
    2  Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 2  Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1  Echoing Truth
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 3  Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2  Yixlid Jailer
SB: 2  Umezawa's Jitte

I like 15 creatures and 14 is the bare minimum.  The most I could see squeezing maindeck is 16 but that probably isn't worth it.  I still love petal :p

Matchup and Sideboard Strategy:

Stax- This is a matchup of tempo.  You try to maintain it the entire match and if they pull ahead with a busty draw to try to minimize the amount of damage they can inflict.  If you start off strong you care less about things like spheres.  Now with 8-9 spheres you have to be very careful about how and when you use your counter magic.  It goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway; Sphere of resistance is much more harmful to you than thorns of amethyst.  Thorns can hurt too, but almost a third of your deck is creatures so that's not a big concern.  I'm happy that most decks will be running thorns because in this particular matchup it actually lessens the odds of seeing a really harmful play for us- chalice for 2.  The more spheres they play, the less chance that play comes online... and that's a good thing! :p

I used to say that siding out duress was something you didn't want to always do because on the play duress was strong against stax.  Now I think they go out regardless of being on the play or draw because you'll always have thoughtseize maindeck.  Also, leading with duress can suck because it makes you use underground sea and that gives them an immediate and obvious wasteland target.  Mindcensor again is poor in just this match alone really, but I'd keep one in because he can randomly stop rinker or be an out for chalice at 2.  Plows should really come in here as well.  Echoing truth seems like a fine cadidate to cut.  You can make a case to cut daze, but whether you're on the play or not I really like daze against stax because their is usually tight.

-3 Duress + 3 Seal, -1 E truth + 1 Kataki, -2 Mindcensor + 2 Plow

GAT- Gat is not a bad match.  It can vary but I find it usually comes down to the players and not making any small mistakes...because they can add up fast in this match.  Countering fastbond is key if they run it out on turn 1.  If you can stabalize the board and have a fistful of counters you might not need to counter it, but it's usually advised.  Gush should be the first thing you name here pretty much every single time with meddling mage.  Gush can let them chain out of nowhere and more importantly, it nullifies your strip effects.  If they've used a couple and the game is drawing on then Yawg will is a fine target as well.  Mage on dryad is a play I'm not a fan of but I could see cases for it.  I don't see where I'd name dryad over gush, but if you already have mages on gush and will then dryad is a decent third candidate.  Still, alot of gat players run togs now too and that's actually a far more problematic card.  Because there's heavy variance of the tog to dryad ratio that people use, I don't think it's worth dropping a mage on either usually. 

- 1 Etruth and -1 Kataki + 2 Plow

There isn't alot of boarding needed to be done here.  It really comes down to players in my opinion.  Mage on goyf might be a great play post board, because alot of GAT pilots are trying to be cute and pretend to be the beatdown when they aren't.  If they pull that goyf crap on you just yell 'I'M THE BEATDOWN!'  :p

ETW combo- This deck comes in many shapes and sizes... sometimes trying to pass itself off as a beautiful women.  Don't be fooled, it's a hideous beast that wants to impregnate you with many goblin tokens.  Basically they win in two ways- they try to go broken immediately or they setup a big turn with alot of backup then go broken.  Either way you can't let them do that.  You have to make them play your game.  Firing out a mindcensor is more important than meddling mage here, although mage ain't bad.  Mage on will should be priority number one.  Naming empty or tendrils doesn't seem right because whatever they can't cast they'll just kill you with the alternate kill.  Speaking of alternate kills, Darksteel is a cute one so always be on your toes for it. 

Sideboard: -2 plow, +1 kataki +1 E truth

I like kataki here because it's more pressure.  They usually will have to commit some artifacts to the board rather than save up for empty because you'll be applying plenty of pressure.  Kataki allows that additional pressure while sometimes being a significant threat.  Obviously his value isn't as high in a non-stax match, but these decks usually run full complement of broken artifacts so he shouldn't really ever be bad.  I could see holding one plow in but it feels like a mulligan more often than not against combo.  If they get tinker/colossus out you still have 2 etruths and with an additional kataki... they could always forget to pay upkeep :p

The mirror- You want to get out confidant asap.  Mage is not that useful because they run what you run, but if you get out a confidant then the first thing you should name is probably dark confidant :p  If they can't get theirs out then you're playing a different game than they are.  You're drawing 2 cards a turn and they aren't.  That's good!  Mage on Goyf is another great one but they have to be running green for that to make any sense.  Duress and thoughtsieze is nice too here.

Sideboard: + 2 jitte - 2 thoughtseize, + 2 plow - 1 daze/-1 etruth.  If on the play -1 etruth -1 mystical

Thoughtseize, as good as I think it is, seems not great here.  You don't want to do unncessary points of damage to yourself and duress gets most of what you'd get anyway.  I like mystical being boarded out here because it's bad against opposing mindcensors and you have to be weary of their matching counter suite.  EOT mystical is a popular play of mine but usually I don't have mana up to pay for daze.  Jitte is obviously huge here and if you have one and they don't... you win.

That's about it right now for me.  I'll add some last bit general strategy and say I'd probably wait to brainstorm alot now because of thoughtseize and duress.  Playing into daze is about the only time where waiting to brainstorm is bad, but if you're on the draw they probably already have the daze so it wouldn't matter.  Fetching is also tricky but in general I'd say if you need to cast something right away do it, but if it's one of those plays where you can take a wait and see attitude then wait to fetch.  Mindcensor is something I have an opposite view on- play this guy early and often.  Don't be cute and try to do it eot all the time because it'll just bite you in the ass sometimes.  Yes you can respond to their fetchland with a mindcensor, but what if they play the fetch and don't use it immediately?  Then you're forced to decide if you want to play the mindcensor anyway to just get in there for 2 every turn and apply pressure... or wait to cast him until they fetch, which probably won't happen later in the game when they are setup to win.  My approach is to not put yourself in that spot and just run him right out there even if it's on your mainphase.  Mindcensor is a card that many people must answer before they win.  If they have an answer that's fine...you've got plenty more threats including more than 1 mindcensor (for the love of god don't run just 1 mindcensor :p)

In conclusion, I think UBW fish is very strong and can definitely pose a threat to any top tier deck.  Time will tell as to how good it is but I plan on trying it out a few more times and I'll keep everyone posted.

- Dave Feinstein

[The Duressed]

Dave, I've got a couple questions.

1) Why only two Jotun Grunt? That guy is a total house, and often your win condition when you draw it. And even if he doesn't land the killing blow, he's probably the guy that got you there.

2) Why only 3 Wasteland? The card still just seems really good, even against Gush decks. I'd explain, but Kobefan did it better:

On Wastelands: These are great vs. Gush decks, really they are. It took me a while to put it together but often times you can put your opponent in very rough situations with them. One of my favorite plays vs. Gush decks is to Waste on their EOT when they are holding 6 or more cards, because if they Gush they'll be down 2 land drops and will have to discard 2 cards. Sometimes just wasting a land on turn 2 and having them Gush in response is a good play too since they'll be going into turn 3 with 0 lands on the board. If your waste does get through they only run 18-20 mana sources so taking out the most on-color one is going to be painful. Here's how wastes usually play out for me:

On the play: me: Land, threat
Them: Land, something
Me: Waste and activate

On the draw: them: Land, something
me: land, something
them: land something
me: Something, Waste, go
them: GAT often times is between a rock and a hard place here. If they play Gush and can't put a basic island into play then they'll end turn 3 with 0 lands in play. So often times if they don't have a third land drop you can set them up nicely for an EOT waste.

The context of this explanation had more to do with URBana Fish, but if you substitute the word "threat" on the play with "Duress effect," it's just as good. Hopefully the "something" of yours on the draw is also a Duress effect, because it's just so nuts on turn 1.

I agree that cutting Vampiric Tutor from my list to make space for another Swords (in terms of my list) could be a very reasonable thing to do, but I've also found that searching up a Mindcensor or a Grunt, or perhaps a Mage, can win a game that might've had you in topdeck mode, or worse. I'm not sure how much Stax will be running around in my area, but if it seems significant, I'll probably toss some Katakis into the main.

[Dxfiler]

Hi Duressed.

1)  Well as I mentioned in the post, if you get him early he usually just sits there.  He's awesome mid to late game but I find 2 to be optimal if you run Kataki.  If you don't run kataki 3 makes sense and a 4th mindcensor in the other spot.

2) Wasteland is not as good in this deck as it potentially is in others.  URB fish for example, does not play meddling mage.  You want access to mage as soon as possible in many scenarios.

Also Wasteland is not THAT good vs. gush decks.  If you know they have gush, wasting into it is usually the worst thing you could possibly do.  Also the threats are different in WUB vs URB, so you don't have the luxury of tying up their lands while attacking with a ninja.  Wasteland is solid in this deck vs. them but don't overvalue it's place in the deck.  It's merely a helper.  I've always felt comfortable with 3 based on the deck being 3 colors and mana being very tight.

Thanks for the questions =)

- Dave

[The Duressed]

So if that's the case, and you're choosing to run smaller numbers of more diverse creatures with different effects on the game state, why would Vampiric Tutor be bad? It could be a turn 1 play that turns into a turn 2 playing of exactly the correct creature, be it anything from a Kataki to a Bob.

[Dxfiler]

Well as I mentioned already the 2 life off vamp sucks and vamp isn't blue.  Your blue count is tight and you're playing with fire already having 4 forces plus thoughtsezies... the more life lost = the riskier the game becomes.

Like vamp is a fine, fine card... but I don't see why you'd ever run it over dt and in this deck it just doesn't seem to be clearly better than mystical.

You play enough 2-3 of's that you'll consistently get the right threats.  As for kataki, you're up to 3 after board (and could even go up to 4) so it's not like you won't see him.

Also too many tutors means card disadvantage if what you tutor for is countered.  You don't run enough solid counters to always protect what you tutor up, and you don't run things like gush or thirst for knowledge or library so you're already at card disadvantage in many matchups.

I hope those explanations helped answer your question.

- Dave