WUb Fish: Deck Discussion

[wethepeople]

BTW, you only have a 14 card sideboard.... Room for more hate!

If you are refering to my list, then I am not surprised. I change my sideboard too often for a definite SB list to be worth posting, because it all depends on the metagame. I posted the cards that I generally use, and an approximate quantity, however, it is likely for those slots to vary as well.

I recently put a lot of work into my list again, and am trying to optimize it for it's best performance in a metagame consisting of primarily Gifts, Fish, and Long, seeing as those are the most common decks I have been facing as of late.

If I am satisfied with what I am testing right now, then I will either post it, or just edit my original thread.

[Nydaeli]

He plays Brainstorm, mox, mox, mox, crypt, sol ring, lotus (first red source) and I immediately fire out the FOW at it.  He has the pyroblast and then empties for 16.  I promptly lose.

How did he Pyroblast you if that was his first red source?

[wethepeople]

Here is one of my later lists that I have been very successful with lately, in testing.

Creature Base [13]:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda

Disruption [15]:

3 Duress
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void

Utility [10]:
3 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Echoing Truth
1 Time Walk

Mana [22]:
4 Moxen
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard [14]:
3 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Rule of Law
2 Planar Void
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Kataki
2 Energy Flux
1 Duress
1-2 Echoing Truth
1-2 variable slots

The above list is what I have been using lately. I put a few debatable slots in bold, those of which I will go over, and explain why exactly I selected that particular card, and the quantity.

First off, I gave in on Isamarus. I use two, and I actually like them. Never would I have thought I'd say this, but they have been good to me.

3 Duress
4 Stifle

These selections tend to vary back and forth, one is 3, the other is 4. I currently use 4 Stifles to avoid Wastelands until turn two, as well as work as a Wasteland, and stop fetchlands. In a metagame full of Fish, turn one Wastelands on your Dual are common, so Stifle helps garuntee that I am able to get one of my 2cc creatures into play.

In most Fish builds, Daze is used in this slot. The reason I choose not to run Daze is that it is bad on turn one, in a deck like this. It requires you to return your land, and then your turn two just becomes a repeat of turn one. In this deck, you almost always want to have two mana on the board, to cast Meddling Mage, Dark Confidant, et cetera. This also is the reason why I have went down to the meer two main deck Wastelands. I know this is unusual for Fish, and currently, it is just a test. But once again, I haven't liked needing to repeat my first turns, and be required to wait to cast a creature. Wasteland is far better in standard UW Fish because they play far more 1-drop creatures, whereas it isn't nearly as good here.

Duress, a card that I originally splashed black for, has been decreased to three. This is primarily because it puts problems on my mana base in the first few turns. It makes me fetch for a USea, when I need a Tundra next turn. I added one maindeck Scrubland to try and avoid this situation, but it doesn't always work as planned. I sideboard one Duress to bring in versus decks where Swords to Plowshares, and other MD slots are sub-optimal, or dead. This has worked well for me, and I will continue to play it this way for now.

I am considering going down to just two Brainstorms, because I am begining to feel they are unecessary. However, I do not want my draw engine to rely completely on Dark Confidant.

I still use one Swords to Plowshares main, in which I often times tutor for in the Fish mirror. For a while, I didn't use any at all, but Fish still is a very common deck, and I think it is good to have at least one MD. In place of the cut StP's, I added another Echoing Truth, to try and handle Empty the Warrens, and work as a worse-than Swords to Plowshares number two.

I have now went up to four Moxen, which is something I have been considering doing for quite some time. I tried using a full set of five, but colorless mana isn't in the casting cost of too many of my spells, only Dark Confidant, really, because turn one, I never want to cast a Jotun Grunt.

As you may have noticed, I actually posted my current sideboard. This is clearly designed for Fish, Stax, and has other cards to replace dead spells in the remaining matchups.

I will start first with my selections I made for the Fish mirror. I chose to use Threads of Disloyalty, as opposed to Old Man, Jitte, et cetera. I like Threads because it doesn't die to the usual creature removal brought in in the mirror, like Old Man. Unlike Jitte, it is uneffected by the Legendary rule, and the ever-popular Null Rod. I use Echoing Truth mainly for Empty the Warrens, a card that comes in almost all the time now, but it also commonly comes into play here.

Kataki, and Energy Flux is a little combo that I have been using versus Stax, and other Workshop-based decks for a while now. I don't really like using just Kataki because it dies to basic creature removal. Energy Flux has quite the mana requirement, which can be difficult to pull off versus Stax; the mana denial deck of them all.

Despite Ichorids dramatic decrease, I still have a couple Planar Voids dedicated to the matchup. I do of course use Void in other matchups, but in addition to my other disruption, they aren't always necessary, so I choose to just run two.

Rule of Law and Orim's Chant both are good selections to fight Combo. I have a difficult time deciding on both of them, but right now, I use Chant. Chant is far easier to bluff with, because all it does is require you to leave a Tundra untapped, and your opponent will be forced to find a counter, or Duress it away. Rule of Law on the other hand is also difficult to get rid of. It generally takes multiple turns to bounce, because you have to tutor for a bounce spell, and then cast it the following turn. When combined with a Force of Will, it is almost impossible to get rid of. Both of which have their merits, and are strong candidates for this slot.

If anyone would like additional explanations for just about any of my selections made in this list, I would be glad to clarify.

[Hanni]

I normally play Legacy and I found a local card shop that does Legacy, but they rotate with Vintage every other Saturday, so I decided to port my Legacy UWb Fish to Vintage. This is what I will be running at the next local Vintage tournament:

UWb Fish

Lands (18)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

Creatures (14)
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Jotun Grunt
1 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Stifle
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Duress
3 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl

Sideboard (15)
2 Echoing Truth
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Orim's Chant
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Serenity
1 Duress
3 Umezawa's Jitte

[Sean Ryan]

@ wethepeople,

If you are set on going with Chalice over Rod I would build off Paul Nicolo's list at Worlds: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/vintage06/welcome
I would certainly make adjustments to accomodate the current meta but his general design is sound. 

@ Hanni,

I like your list.  It is very similair to what I have played in the past.  However, 21 mana sources is to light.  I have run 22 with the Jet you are missing and it is the lowest you can really afford to go.  Depending upon your meta, StP is becoming more and more dead weight which is why I like the idea of running a small tool box with a tutor or two.  Echoing Truth/Decay, StP come to mind.  I would be curious to hear how Daze works for you.  By cutting Daze you could  make room for more consistency in the deck: Stiffle/Duress/Misd/Null Rod/Mana/ect.   

I have had some sucess with u/w/b Fish in the past.  I designed a modified EBA list to beat Slaver, and to a lesser extent Gifts, while retaining decent matchups against combo, Stax, and Fish.  I lost one match to Drains in the 4 tournaments I played Fish last year.

On the issue of Null rod vs. Chalice

Rod is usually more powerful and is the most anti-broken card you can drop in Vintage.  However, against combo and possibly Giftz, the speed Chalice comes down is advantagous.  I have run both in the past and tend to prefer Null Rod, although the Vial/Chalice build that placed at Worlds deserves mention (it won me a Grim Tutor;) )

I would like to see a build with both Chalice & Rod get tested (you always want one in your opening hand).  The absence of the 4th Rod is another issue that seems to have become a sacred cow that deserves scrutiny.

I have never liked running Lions/Hounds but, I have had enormous success with Negator.  Post Empty the Warrens this may be less tenable.  This follows more in the fashion of WTG where a faster clock makes you less dependant on maintaining continuous disruption (often an impossibility). 

I propose the following as a starting point:

Creatures: 14-16

4 Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
3 Grunt
3-5 other creatures???

4 FoW
3-4 Rod
3-4 Duress
0-3 Daze
2-3 Stiffle
X Echoing Truth, Echoing Decay, StP ???

4 Brainstorm
1 Recall
1 Walk
1 Mystical Tutor

Mana: 22
4 Lotus/Moxes
4 Strip/Waste
6 Fetch
2 Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains

SB:

StP
Jitte
Threads
Orim's Chant
Rule of Law
Chalice
Kataki
Seal of Cleansing
Energy Flux
Duress
Rod

*******************

The significant issues are:

*Rod vs Chalice(Vial)

*Daze - the most cuttable general disruption IMO

*Misc. creatures: Lions/Hounds, Kataki, Tru Beleiver, Negator (Kataki is a given if you see a fair amount of Stax)

*Sufficient answers to Empty: Echoing Truth/Decay & the inclusion of Mystical tutor

*Developing a side board that helps against the combo,mirror,Stax - while keeping the maindeck focused on beating Drains. 

Thanks

Sean

[Hanni]

I'm gonna stick with 21 mana sources for now and if I find it not working, I'll change it later.

I like Null Rod over Chalice because the only thing I can set Chalice to is 0, which doesn't stop moxes if I don't drop it 1st turn. Null Rod works whenever I draw into it. The reason I only run 3 is because multiples are usually deadweight and I somewhat treat Kataki as Null Rod #4. Chalice at 1 shuts off too many of my spells for me to want to drop it at 1 and I hate Vial in aggro/control Fish builds (14 creatures + Vial doesn't seem so hot).

The reason I like StP is because in my local Vintage meta, there is alot of targets for StP that need answered with a 1cc spot removal card (with 2cc being too slow). Worldgorger, etc. 3 StP maindeck with 1 StP and 2 Truth sideboard seems good enough and I'll tune the list after a few local tournaments to what works best there. I don't really plan on playing Vintage that much, at least not right now.

I don't think Negator would be so hot since my meta has Ichorid, Affinity, and a few other strategies involving aggro (I think).

I like Daze alot because it's a free countermagic spell and it helps me match the speed of some of the format. Early game (turn 1 and 2), my opponent's tend to curve out alot and I tend to be tapped out alot. It's not always going to be effective, but it's game saving sometimes. Not only that, but it works well when played into the mana denial theme of Null Rod and Wasteland. If I find myself wishing I had something else in there place, I'll drop them. For now, I like the Dazes.

[And11]

Now I haven't read all the responses, but Demonic Consultaion is a must. It's your 5th Confi, Mage, FoW, Chalice etc. It's way better than Demonic Tutor in Fish.

Anyways, I don't think Extirpate will make a huge impact on Vintage. Combo players will go back to Duress and/or Xantids until the popularity of Extirpate weares off. Btw., I laughed when I saw you tweaked your mana base with shocks in order to fight Extirpate @ Underground Sea Keep it up, mate.

/andreas

[wethepeople]

The thing that I find kind of stupid about Aether Vial + Chalice is that Vial really isn't necessary. It's not like I am ever going to set Chalice at two in any matchup, and applying 0-1 counters is irrelevant to my creature base, with the exception of two Isamarus. I like Chalice because it can shut off cards in any matchup, so unlike Null Rod, it is rarely dead. Yes, I understand that it can only really be effective turn one, I have heard that more times than I can count. But I have noticed that it is uncommon for most Storm-based decks to cast all of their accel turn one, unless that is, they need it, so Chalice comes in handy regardless of the dice roll.

To board versus Stax, which I don't too commonly need to do, I like to use Energy Flux, and Kataki. If Stax were a more-dominant archetype right now, I certainly would dedicate more than just three cards to them in my sideboard, but I rarely see it's appearance much at all anymore.

For quite some time now, I have considered running 0 Brainstorms. Yes, zero. BS isn't the best card in a deck like this, and I myself think it'd be better to use additional disruption, such as Duress number four, et cetera. In your list, Sean Ryan, you use four. This certainly doesn't look like a great choice to me, because UWb has other forms of draw, as opposed to UW, who relies on the mere Brainstorm + AR draw engine.

Phyrexian Negator is terrible right now, because it is a great Drain target, and clears your entire board in other matchups. Versus Fish, if you want to have a straight-up beefy creature, Serra Avenger apparently fits that criteria perfectly.

I maindeck Swords for the exact reason Hanni does- it works well in a meta consisting of aggro. I like being able to Tutor for it when I need to, even if it is dead in other matchups.

Now I haven't read all the responses, but Demonic Consultaion is a must. It's your 5th Confi, Mage, FoW, Chalice etc. It's way better than Demonic Tutor in Fish.

Anyways, I don't think Extirpate will make a huge impact on Vintage. Combo players will go back to Duress and/or Xantids until the popularity of Extirpate weares off. Btw., I laughed when I saw you tweaked your mana base with shocks in order to fight Extirpate @ Underground Sea  Keep it up, mate.

/andreas

I really don't think I need additional Tutoring in here. If I did, I would use Demonic Tutor because it can successfully get me restricted cards, without taking the risk of a game loss. As you may of noticed in my last list, I went back to the regular Duals. When I put out my original list, I was afraid that Extirpate was going to be a real significant threat in Vintage, and didn't want to be in the situation where I have no access what so ever to black, or white mana. This obviously never happened, so I think it is safe now. 

[arik124]

Stax boards in eon hub, so flux and kataki aren't as good unless they are dropped very quickly.  Also from playing many games I have found the following to be relatively accurate about Brainstorm.  Against non-fish decks you don't need it in UWB.  In the mirror, them having B-storm helps them alot becuase they name Bob with mage and then just search for jotun grunts.  I use 4 duress over 4 brainstorm and have been happy with it.

[Sean Ryan]

Ah yes, the "is Brainstorm worth it in a deck full of 'crappy' cards debate."  I really don't want to spend much time on this other than to say that while redundant builds without Brainstorm and with more card advanatge (think Ninja of Deep Hours in addition to Bob) are feasable, the overwhelming concensus has Brainstorm/Fetchland as the more optimal design.  Hand optimization is essential even in Fish.  I would feel utterly naked without Brainstorm/Fetch in the kind of Fish builds that are being discussed here.  I would venture to say that nealry every deck that can run Brainstorm/Fetch should do so and is one of, if not the most, powerful/effeciant unrestricted cards you have access to in Vinatge.  Brainstorm is not a card that lends itself to running less than the full set of 4.  I think you will be hard pressed to find anyone whose opinion is highly regarded on these forums as advocating running less than the full gamit.  If you choose to try a build without Brainstorm that relys more on consistency, you should definitly find a way to build card advanatge other than just Bob.  Perhaps consulting BEckers early builds of Urbana Fish would be benificial. 

Negator - probally not what the present metagame is asking for but, was used more as an illustration of how thinking outside the box is exploits you're opponents weaknesses while shoring up you're own.  BtW, good players don't walk into Drain.  Last year, the dominance of Slaver/Gifts and the absence of aggro made Negator a perfect fit.   It also addressed one of Fish's biggest weaknesses, the lack of a real clock.  The combination of Negator and Grunt backed up with all the disruption u/w/b had to offer vastly improved my matchups.  The times have changed but, now we must once again try to think outside the box.  Easier said than done. 

Sean

 

     

[arik124]

ever since i dropped bstorm i haven't lost a swiss match, and haven't missed a top 8...why not at least try it?

[wethepeople]

Negator - probally not what the present metagame is asking for but, was used more as an illustration of how thinking outside the box is exploits you're opponents weaknesses while shoring up you're own.  BtW, good players don't walk into Drain.  Last year, the dominance of Slaver/Gifts and the absence of aggro made Negator a perfect fit.   It also addressed one of Fish's biggest weaknesses, the lack of a real clock.  The combination of Negator and Grunt backed up with all the disruption u/w/b had to offer vastly improved my matchups.  The times have changed but, now we must once again try to think outside the box.  Easier said than done. 

Sean

No intent to quote from context, but I feel like you are implying that I am not a good player. I did not say anything about "walking" into a Drain, but there are times where you can't avoid it. When you know your opponent has Drain at hand, which is easy to conclude, a deck like this is in no position to sit back and not play anything. I am not saying that a clock, similar to Negator, is a poor idea in Fish, I was just saying that Negator is a terrible card right now. I wouldn't doubt  that it was good last year, but over the past few months Fish, and aggro decks of the like, have gotten far more popular, therefore Negator isn't the right choice in a meta like this. I even went to the point where I tried to agree with your suggestion, and tried to improve on the idea by recommending Serra Avenger. BrianPK80 used Avenger with success in some of his Fish builds, and it fits the designated criteria perfectly.

In my first few lists, I used four Brainstorms. This is because I directly transitioned the deck from standard UW. However, over time, I began to cut one by one, and benefited from the new cards, because Brainstorm was never really a card that impressed me that much in this deck.

[Sean Ryan]

@wethepeople
No insult intended, just pointing out the obvious.  Between Duress and good playskill (baiting counters) Drain doesn't scare me - Drain is scared of me .

Anyway, what about something like this for a Chalice no-Brainstorm build:

4 CotV
4 FoW
4 Duress
4 Stiffle
3 EExplosives

4 Confidant
4 Mage
4 Grunt
4 Lions/Hounds

1 Recall
1 Walk
 
23: Mana

SB: ???
3 Jitte
3 StP
2 Threads/Old Man
4 Seal o Cleansing
3 Tormod's Crypt

Seems pretty streamlined, although I want more card advanatge.  Ninja?

Sean

[wethepeople]

In my build, I use both 1cc Tutors- Vampiric, and Mystical. This allows me to run a smaller number of answers to ETW, and get whatever I need at other times. Your list uses Engineered Explosives, and Chalice, which can contradict from time to time. Even with four Wastelands main, it is hard to get EE past you're own Chalices, so I currently think Echoing Truth is a better selection right now. Versus Stax, EE can rarely do a thing, because it requires quite a bit of mana to cast and break it, to dispose of the designated lock piece, whereas Etruth only requires two, and can bounce anything.

If you continue you to use 4 maindeck 1-drop creatures (Lions, or Hounds), then Ninja of the Deep may be playable in here. I doubt I would ever use it as a four of, though, 2-3 may work out well. Jotun Grunt weakens with the exclusion of Brainstorm (BS fills GY because it cycles cards), so running four probably wouldn't be best.

Edit: 500th post. 

[Everrid1234]

Here is my list, just to think about:

UWb Fish


4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland   --> no basics, i never fetch for island


4 Jotun Grunt (Confidant in the deck, so i like to kill fast. This graveyardhating guy is amazing)
2 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Dark Confidant (never a Fish deck without it)
4 Meddling Mage

4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Stifle
4 Force of Will
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Echoing Truth
2 Duress
2 Daze
3 Null Rod
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor


Sideboard

1 Duress
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Energy Flux
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Disenchant (to tutor for via Mystical)
3 Jitte
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Kataki




My choices:


-2 Daze/2 Duress : Against some decks Daze is better the Duress (for example some aggro decks) so i prefer this mix. The enemy is always aware of keeping mana open. Duress competes with Stifle and Brainstorm. I like having 6 Counters.

[pyr0ma5ta]

After playing a UB fish variant that splashes W in the board yesterday to a Finals finish (would have won the tournament if Bob didn't hit Leyline 3 times), I am confident that Null Rod and Chalice are now obsolete in Fish.  The premiere disruption in my opinion is Leyline, and secondarily Duress.  With Rebuild and Chain of Vapor everywhere, Rod/Chalice don't cut it.  Oh, and Leyline is very hardcastable if you run DRits in Fish, and even multiples are not useless because Chain only bounces one of them.  Tormod's Crypt is just not as good. 

Incidentally, Aven Mindcensor is the bee's knees.  It shores up the Gifts and Combo matchups, and the best part is, you can freely fetch up your duals because they don't run wastes.  In fact, besides Mox Pearl, I ran no white sources in the main, and boarded into 1 Tundra, 1 Scrubland to support 4 Aven Mindcensor and 3 Meddling Mage (against Flash), and never had a problem getting the right mana.

Negator is great in game 1, because your opponent usually counts on having 6-8 turns to play with against Fish, and you can speed your clock by 2-3 turns with him.  I even Demonic Tutored for him twice, and closed out the game just before I would have lost.  However, I boarded him out in almost every matchup (Not against Ichorid for obv reasons), because opponents will bring in FTK, Fire/Ice, Clasm, ETW, etc etc.

[cursedDice]

Hey everyone! I am a long-time reader first time poster with 'average' Vintage experience (1 top 8 and 1 top 4 out of six tourneys in the last year).  I play mainly fish in a heavily powered meta with LOTS and LOTS of combo...Grim Long, Flash, Doomsday, Belcher, ex-Gifts decks, and I am SURE it will fill with Gush/Tendrils and GAT since the changes to the B/R list.  After combo in my meta, comes Ichorid, and then as many variants on fish as exist in these forums (well maybe not quite, close though).  Last year was filled with Stax, but that has fallen off a lot.  But in a field of 25-40, I would expect 2-3 Stax decks + 1 Aggro Shop deck (its the same guy plays it every tourney...Lotushead you lurk here I know, and yes, I am talking about you! Guess who?) 

With that said.  The list I bring to the next tourney needs to be able to beat Combo 1st, Ichorid and the mirror 2nd, and hopefully have decent game against the mirror.

This is the list I have been working on (it is based on bits and pieces of various decks on several vintage forums), card choices will be explained below.


13 CREATURES
4 dark confidant
4 MM
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Kataki

27 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Duress
3 Null Rod
2 E. Truth
1 Demonic Consult
1 Time Walk
1 A. Recall

21 MANA
1 Black L
3 Mox
4 Pol D.
3 Flood S.
3 Und. Sea
2 Tunra
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Waste
1 Strip

SB
4 Chalice (combo)
4 Leyline (Ichorid, Combo)
3 Yxilid Jailer
4 Threads of D.

Creatures should be self-explanatory: dark confidant is for draw, grunt is for beats and grave-hate, Mage for general disruption, Kataki is for Stax, and to force combo to pay for its Moxen.

Spells: So I took the direction of casting Spells turn 1 instead of laying down a turn 1 beater.  Turn 1, I want to be duressing, brainstorming, stifling, daze, and forcing (all turn 1 plays) or powering out a creature/null rod via moxen/lotus. 2 Echo T. are for EtW (obviously) and also can work against ichorid (zombie tokens, narcomeba before they flash dread return, etc...) and can be used in the fish mirror...EOT E. Truth creature(s) then play MM on those creatures on your turn.  Demonic Consultation is so I can get my Null-Rod if I need it game 1, or my Jailer vs Ichorid Game 2, etc...I find it works much better than Mystical or Vampiric Tutor.  It puts the card directly into my hand, so if I draw D. Consult I can cast it that turn.  I am not utterly convinced on this though.

The other wierd choice maindeck is of course 2 wastlelands.  The more I played 3 color fish, the more I found myself want to go from 5 strip effects, to 4, and now to 3.  It helps against color screw, (I hate drawing 2 wastelands opening hand!), and in my meta, the players are good enough to minimze the effects of wasteland.  In fact people seem to play around wasteland whether I am showing one or not (not cracking fetches, grabbing basics, feigning what color they need, etc...) which makes me believe that I don't need 4 or 5 waste effects, since people often play against fish like they are packing 5 strip effects.

Onto the sideboard choices.  4 Chalice.  If I am on the play against combo or Stax, this goes in.  If I am on the draw this stays out...almost always.  If I draw a 2nd against combo I set it to 1, since this always messes them up more than me...none of my creatures are effected, and chances are I already played the 1cc spells on my first turns anyways.

Leyline and Jailer are for Ichorid...Although Leyline goes in against combo when I am on the draw (extra turn 0 disruption to go with FoW)...Leyline is also the nuts against Flash...and some other combo decks (what are the obvious ones besides Flash?)

The threads of disloyalty are for the mirror.  I am wondering if this is enough...most other fish decks pack Jitte for the mirror...am I wrong with going this way with my S/B.   It seems like by the time they cast Jitte, I should be able to steal their creatures?  Please give me thoughts on my FOUR slots dedicated to the fish Mirror.

Here are my thoughts on the correct side-board choices vs the match-ups in my meta.

Match-up Sideboards

Standard (non-grave) Combo...Me on Play:
+4 Chalice -1 Null Rod -2 Kataki -1 E. Truth

Standard (non-grave) Combo...Me on Draw:
+4 Leyline -1 Daze -3 Duress

Grave-base combo (flash) Me on Play:
+4 Chalice +4 Leyline -2 E. Truth, -3 Null Rod, -1 Demonic C, -2 Kataki

Grave-base combo (flash)...Me on Draw:
+4 Leyline -2 E. Truth, -2 Kataki

Stax... Me on Play:
+4 Leyline -4 Daze

Stax...Me on Draw:
+4 Leyline -4 Daze

Ichorid... Me on Play:
+4 Leyline +3 Jailer -3 Duress -3 Null Rod -2 Kataki

Ichorid...Me on Draw:
+4 Leyline +3 Jailer -3 Duress -3 Null Rod -2 Kataki

Fish Mirror
+4 Threads +2 Jailer -3 Null Rod -1 D. Consult -1 Stifle -1 Daze

Phew! Long first Post!  Didn't want to get a warning for lack of content. 

Anyways, I am not a great vintage player, but want critiques on this deck and my post that will help improve my chances on my next outing.  Thanks!

[Everrid1234]

The lame thing about Demonic Consultation is that you can for example remove all Tundras when trying to grab a 2-or 3-of. This hurts.
I wouldn't pack it inside.

I would also like to have 1-2 more Daze or Duress inside or even a Black Lotus but i can't leave anything out. I think 4 Grunts work nice in the maindeck.

[zeus-online]

The lame thing about Demonic Consultation is that you can for example remove all Tundras when trying to grab a 2-or 3-of. This hurts.
I wouldn't pack it inside.

Having played decks with 4x demonic consultation a bit, i can say that the drawback is irrelevant 99% of the time or something like that. Especially in a deck with alot of redundant cards like fish.

/Zeus

[Kieranwolf]

I've been wavering on the decision of what deck to play in the current meta. Lots of GAT is something I never thought I'd actually have to deal with.

Anyway, I was wondering:

1. If Null Rod is much less good (Due to the elimination of Gifts and the decline of Slaver), is AEther Vial now better?

2. If AEther Vial is better, what about Standstill and Factories/Ninjas?

[Everrid1234]

I modified my list a bit.

I hate this mulliganing for Leyline so I decided to go for 3 Crypt. This also diesn't hit me so hard with the Confidant.
I took out Energy Flux since its a bit narrow and costs 1 too much while only being used vs. a deck against which the mana is very tight.
The Sphere of Resistance makes it cost 4 which makes it nearly uncastable.

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland 


4 Jotun Grunt
2 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage

4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Stifle
4 Force of Will
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Echoing Truth
2 Duress
2 Daze
3 Null Rod
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor


Sideboard

1 Duress
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Disenchant (to tutor for via Mystical)
3 Jitte
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Children of Korils
1 Kataki
1 Null Rod

[hauntedechos]

hey guys,

I'm glad to see the Fish discussion continuing.  Clearly Fish HAS to move towards 3colours (yes I'm Canadian), and with that in mind, our main has been streteched out.  The way I see it is, we need to address the AREAS OF PLAY, not win conditions in specific.  The current trend has been to abuse the g/y as well as the Long.dec aproach to stringing spells together.

The yard is pretty easy to hate out.  But it's more important to hate it out from the angles that it is abused.  Tendrils MIGHT abuse it via Yawgs Will, but they certainly DO NOT NEED TO.  Ichorid, on the other hand does.  Gifts is all but dead now, with Flash/Rector and/or Hulk smash taking it's place and GAT threatening it's dominance again.  Tormod's seems situational and others leaning on a situationaly dead Ley Line of the void; clearly we Fish players are in limbo as to the best yard hate to deal with them all.

Yard hate and control over the # of spells played/turn seems paramount;  This is addition to trying to dominate board control to beat in with weenies.  We also need to adjust our "answers" or disruption to a speed factor that meets the speed of the rival decks.  Ley line hits at turn 0 which is great against ichorid w/no mana to bounce, however it lacks resilience.  To think that Leyline on turn 0 is going to greatly ensure our win is silly.  Ichorid players read TMD.com as much as Fish players, and they also know that mana light Ichorid is much better game 2 with ancient grudge and emerald charm off the back of riftstone portal in the yard.  This is on top of gemstone caverns on turn 0 to answer the turn 0 leyline.  And this is just considering Ichorid!!

Combo is usually dealt with via Orim's chant.  Null Rod is increasingly not effective, nor fast enough to deal with is all.  Chalice at 0 = null rod to a greater or lesser extent, and chalice at 1 shuts off a greater, almost  more important percentage of the long.dec players list.  Clearly we need a change here.

Flash can be engaged with a timely Tormod's, yet Ichorid cuts us short with chalice at 0.  So what to do?

Since the common factor seems the yard (to greater or lesser effect), let's start there.

The fastest yard hate seems to be Ley Line, but it's dead after turn 0.  Tormod's is situational and doesn have the road block effect against Icorid and the rest can deal with it.  I strongly suggest Planar Void.  yes it's not in play turn 0, but it's there turn 1 - end of game.  If it's bounced you cast it again next turn, if they combo out that turn, they would have in the face of tormod's or Leyline anyways; at least this yard hate is resilient and re-castable.

Against Ichorid (this is pretty much specific to ichord), Yixlid is a good SB option.  Since Ichorid is pretty much going to win it's game 1's, deal with it and have a strong game 2-3 match.  Between Planar voids and Yixlids (which can be sided for the Grunts) you should be ok, pack Extirpate in the side (I preferr 1 main in addition) to deal with early Ichorids and wasted Bizaars.  If Gifts was still a concern, Yixlid at least shuts off the recouped card in the Yard.  Anything else comboish, you have extirpates, chalice at 0-1, and stifle on etw or tendrils to buy time...we're Fish, buying time is the best we can hope for..seriously...accept this don't argue.

The mirror is a war of atrition, the player in control of the most creatures wins.  Threads is an idea, Old man/Sea Singer is better and Umezawa's is another.

duress is stonrg against Combo, Ichorid doesn't care, and Flash recover's fast enough that it's a delay tactic as well.  GAT is going to basicly blow us out of the water as well, as it has the largest control suit going in Vintage right now, and Fish cannot deal with it.  They already play the colours we are forced to adapt to, they play it better and that's just that.  Every counter war we get into grows a Dryad, and the CA they get = rolll over Grunt.  Currently I have no idea how to approach GAT, as it's the one match up that I doubt Fish has the tool box to match.  It's too fast in growing the aggro against us, out counters us and has a combo finish that we've always had a hard time of with Oath.  Assuming we cut them off the yard for yawg'd Gush etc, they've been growing the dryads and we've no way of dealing with it, aside from STP, which only gives them life and therefore buys them a turn or two.  STp the first Dryad and MM before the second is a chance, but not much, and with the dilluted clock of U/W/B (loss of 4Lions and 2 Issamaru), we're losing a turn or two we cannot afford.

As this is a thread dedicated to DISCUSSION vs. ANSWERS, I present the above for consideration to the viablity of Fish in the current environment.  I love Fish, but unless the deck is built with the clock of U/W (fastest) and a SB that gives the robust counters of U/B, I don't see how a single list is going to arise.  I was once holding out that u/w/b was the clear choice, and viable; then Gush was unrestricted and GAT reared it's ugly head.  Fast answers Fish can pack, consistent and constant, I don't know.  Unless we choose to run x3+ Mis D for the counter wars, I don't know about the GAT matchup.  They also don't rely on the yard like most current vintage decks as the Gush combo is potent and our only hope is to slow the Gush chain (fastbond-Gush, scroll, Gush, Yawgs etc) via Orim's.  Unfortunatly that does nothing to slow the Dryad's, which would soak up our counters in early to mid game and leave us open to the combo mentioned above, late game.  Oh and I forgot, they can run Massacre as well =(

Whelp, I wasn't sure where I was going with this response as a Fish player; but I'm pretty sure it leads to me putting together my GAT list and moving along.  U/W/B had a decent chance untill Gush was un  resticted, now I belive me MAY be absolutly screwed.

cheers.
Mike.

[the boogie man]

I do not think that fish is completely helpless. The main component that fish has over Gat is that fish has mana denial, and can handle being low on mana. I think that wastelands, stifles, duress, swords, and meddling mage are really good against Gat. Gush is a nice foil to a wasteland, but wasteland forces the player to prematurely use gush. Not only that, but a first turn wasteland could potentially screw a Gat Player, being so light on land. that could keep them off the second land in the first place. A swords could keep them off threats long enough to win, or set up defenses. The Stifles help against the six fetchalnds, also.

Here is my proposed build:

Beats:
4 dark confidant
4 meddling mage
3 jotan Grunt
2 aven mindcensor

Disruption:
4 force of Will
4 duress
4 Stifle
3 Null Rod
2 swords to plowshares
1 echoing truth

Draw:
3 brainstorm
1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical tutor

Power:
1 Black Lotus
3 On-color mox

Land:
3 underground sea
3 tundra
5 fetches
2 isalnd
5 strip effects

In the side, chalices and leylines would go in, along with some amount of orims chant, jitte, trickbind, submerge, and other goodies. I really think that Fish vs. Gat is as much of a slaughterfest as it seems.

[LotusHead]

Hey everyone! I am a long-time reader first time poster with 'average' Vintage experience (1 top 8 and 1 top 4 out of six tourneys in the last year).  I play mainly fish in a heavily powered meta with LOTS and LOTS of combo...Grim Long, Flash, Doomsday, Belcher, ex-Gifts decks, and I am SURE it will fill with Gush/Tendrils and GAT since the changes to the B/R list.  After combo in my meta, comes Ichorid, and then as many variants on fish as exist in these forums (well maybe not quite, close though).  Last year was filled with Stax, but that has fallen off a lot.  But in a field of 25-40, I would expect 2-3 Stax decks + 1 Aggro Shop deck (its the same guy plays it every tourney...Lotushead you lurk here I know, and yes, I am talking about you! Guess who?) 

Heh.  The B/R chnges WONT be in effect for this tourney.  4 Gifts is ok, nd 4 Gush is not ok. So keep tht in mind for your build. (DMN my stupid keybord)

[Webster]

Hey everyone! I am a long-time reader first time poster with 'average' Vintage experience (1 top 8 and 1 top 4 out of six tourneys in the last year).  I play mainly fish in a heavily powered meta with LOTS and LOTS of combo...Grim Long, Flash, Doomsday, Belcher, ex-Gifts decks, and I am SURE it will fill with Gush/Tendrils and GAT since the changes to the B/R list.  After combo in my meta, comes Ichorid, and then as many variants on fish as exist in these forums (well maybe not quite, close though).  Last year was filled with Stax, but that has fallen off a lot.  But in a field of 25-40, I would expect 2-3 Stax decks + 1 Aggro Shop deck (its the same guy plays it every tourney...Lotushead you lurk here I know, and yes, I am talking about you! Guess who?) 

Heh.  The B/R chnges WONT be in effect for this tourney.  4 Gifts is ok, nd 4 Gush is not ok. So keep tht in mind for your build. (DMN my stupid keybord)

Not all stores follow the dates for the B&R announcement as strictly as Eudomonia or SCG Jeff; for example, the Myriad tournament on June 2 was post announcement legality.

[Sean Ryan]

With the emergence of the new metagame shaping around Flash/Ichorid and GAT "Fish" must adapt.  Patrick Chapin stated recently that if you are'nt winning by the 2nd turn you should be running Leyline of the Void maindeck.  I'm not sure if this is really a universal, (GAT) but I definitly agree that Fish must follow this advise.

If you look at the recent results from Eudemnia you can see some of the builds that maindecked the graveyard hate.  I think they went a little on the extreme side with LV, Jailer, and Wretch, but it was a good local metagame call.

In considering the above I propose the following maindeck disruption as the new essentilas for Fish to compete:

4 Leyline Void
4 FoW
4 CotV
4 Duress
2-3 Echoing Truth

These are the fastest tools we have at our disposal.  I have always prefered Rod to Chalice but I think the times have changed now.  You cannot affrod to wait until the 2nd turn anymore. 

I think that moving closer to a primarily U/b build is the right way to go.  I liked how the build that took second at Eudamonia splashed white in the SB rathe than maindecking it.  Meddling Mage and Aven Mindcensor are really the only white cards I want to run and time/testing will be needed before a more informed decision can be made.

Dark confidant is a must, but other than that I think that the creature base is really up for debate at this time.

Realistically, we must wait for the metagame to develop a bit more but I think this is a start.

Thanks
Sean 

[Everrid1234]

What about Stifle?
In my opinion its a bit too situational. When you need it against fast ETW-tricks you often don't have it.
So what about with just going for

4 Fow, 4 Duress, 3 Daze while having a strong creaturebase. leaving Stifle out?
Duress and Daze will help hating the combo deck which Stifle is packed in against, too....

A deck like:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland


4 Jotun Grunt
2 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage

4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Force of Will
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Echoing Truth
4 Duress
3 Daze
3 Null Rod
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor


Sideboard

1 Echoing Truth
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Disenchant
3 Jitte
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Children of Korils
1 Kataki
1 Null Rod

[Dxfiler]

Greetings.  I played a UBW fish deck yesterday at a local tournament with 20 people.  I had tested it alot the days prior and was pleased with the build going into the tourney. 

First- Teh Deck:

// Lands
    3  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Flooded Strand
    1  Polluted Delta
    1  Island
    1  Plains
    4  Tundra
    3  Underground Sea

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    3  Jotun Grunt
    3  Aven Mindcensor
    4  Meddling Mage

// Spells
    4  Force of Will
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Time Walk
    3  Duress
    1  Mox Jet
    4  Daze
    3  Null Rod
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Echoing Truth
    1  Mystical Tutor
    2  Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 2  Orim's Chant
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 1  Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3  Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2 Yixid Jailer

The list is pretty straightforward.  I wasn't a fan of mindcensor until 10,000 people told me to try it.  I did and it was good :p  My GAT match went from even to slightly favoring me game one once I added the extra plow + mindcensors.  The sideboard was aimed at Stax and Ichorid.

Out of the 20 people in the room about half played stax or ichorid :p  I faced the black menace round 1 and the games were pretty dumb.  I lose game one, as expected.  I win game 2 with opneing leyline and many ways to protect it.  Game 3 I mull into mox/jailer and he leads with bazzaar/chalice so I lost.  I had to point out bridge activations alot and that he had to discard to bazzaar :p  It was clear to me he had picked up the deck recently but I just couldn't beat the raw power.

Round 2 I got bomberman.  Game one I had him down to drawing off the top while beating down with meddling mages and he drew two mindcensors consecutively.  They traded with my mages since he played them at the right times and I ending up losing the long game.  Game two I duressed to see explosives and seasinger.  I mage on the sexplsovies and plow singer but he draws 2/4's off the top and they hold the ground since my grunts are nowhere in sight.  He eventually draws 2 mindcensors again and owns me.

So I went 0-2 drop :p  But I honestly think this list is pretty solid.  It needs more one drops I think, but overall I liked the feel of the deck.  I need more against bomberman and ichorid apparently.  I never got the chance to run into GAT or Stax but I did some testing at the store with friends and the deck was doing really well.  I felt like I just had some bad luck this tourney and will continue to work on this deck.

Let me know what you think.

- Teh Feinsteins

[MirariKnight]

I've been screwing around with this idea for a while, since I expect with the rise of GAT, Stax will be back in a big way. So basically, this is to beat tuned to beat GAT and Stax, can still win the combo matchup, and has enough in the board for Ichorid. Unfortunately I don't get to test much because I'm basically the only person for miles who plays T1 where I live, but I'll try to explain this the best I can.

Mana:
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
4 On Color Mox/Lotus
1 Lotus Petal

Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
4 Jotun Grunt
3 Aven Mindcensor

Artifacts:
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt

Spells:
4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Daze
2 Echoing Truth

Sideboard:
1 Tinker
1 Platinum Angel
3 Duress
2 StP
3 Kataki
1 Tormod's Crpyt
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Orim's Chant

This is my logic:
Mana: At least 4 Strip effects are needed, against all the main decks. I like the fifth one but a basic Island might be better than the last wasteland.
The I was very torn between the lotus petal and the off color mox, but either way one is needed. The lotus petal was more necessary in my mind because getting something that costs 2 or 3 off first turn is critical and the colored mana is often needed to do that in this deck.

Creatures:
I'd experimented with Cutpurse and realized that he blows in pretty much every manner, because basically hes a 2/2 for 1 and 2 colored mana. 3 mana is better spent on Mindcensor which destroys GAT and is still awesome against the majority of decks. The 2 power for one guys just dont seem to cut it anymore for me, as the creatures that are in are there for their abilities at this point.

Artifacts:
Chalice is extremely important, and is much more versatile in my opinion than Null Rod. Anywhere from 0-2 counters on it can do quite well against almost anything, but thats stating hte obvious. Pithing Needle is nice because it hoses basically everything. Bazaar, Tog/Dryad, on of the Flash combo creatures activations, etc. It's a real killer. I wanted to up the artifacts in order to run Tinker in the side as well, hence Crypt over Leyline. I might want to find room for a few more crypts.

The spells are pretty much self explanatory, Truth is becoming a huge card to run. Pulls counters off Dryad, stops a tog after he's huge, stops the Flash combo (I think I've never actually played against it), bounces Stax stuff on top of stopping Warrens.

The sideboard is meant to be as general as possible. Crypt just has more synergy here than Leyline and I'll never cast a Leyline I draw into. Tinker>Platinum Angel is really nice, Ichorid can't usually stop it, and if you catch someone off guard the just cant win (literally and figuratively). Duress is something I'd love main, as is MisD but I can't find the place for it, and against Ichorid its prett dead, so I figured I'd side them instead. StP is a more general stop for Tog, Flash, Ichorid and Colossus.

Thats pretty much it, I guess my main idea with this was that there are a lot of good cheap mainboard artifacts to run and Tinker>Platinum Angel can come in unexpectidely in a Fish deck, which I really like to run.

Let me know what you think.

[Keno]

Since my first message got fucked by the internet I'm going to keep it brief.

@mirariknight:

I really dont like Pithing Needle maindeck because:

- it actually does nothing against GaT; they only play 1 Psychatog.
- it actually does nothing against Flash; you stop the combo but then get beat by a 6/6 you cant stop
- it does nothing/little against Fish game 1, possibly even game 2 and 3
- it does nothing against combo

Also, Crypt and Chalice dont really work together since you really want to drop a fast Chalice at 0. I would either go 4 Chalice or 3-4 Crypt maindeck.

As for you sideboard: why Hurkyl's Recall? Your biggest fear is Chalice on 2 and Hurkyl's Recall doesnt stop that.

I also have a suggestion/question of my own: what about Spell Snare? It stops Flash, Dryad, Oath and almost every creature in Fish. Only downside is that it requires Fish to keep 1 mana open.