WUb Fish: Deck Discussion

[hauntedechos]

Hello everyone in the U/W/B Fish thread.


I was an avid player of Fish for a good long while.  I still love the archtype or ideal really behind Fish.

At everrid1234:  I think that Stifles were cut when B was introduced to U/W base Fish.  The idea was that Duress was hopefully going to snag the kind of cards you would want to Stifle, and that everything else was Forced, bounced or STP'd.  Admittedly it's fantastic in Fish because it fills many roles (Manadenial via Fetches, Oath activations, slaver activations, Welder tricks, and most relevent I think, the Storm mechanic)  I think that right now it jockeys for inclusion against Daze really and that's a really hard debate to be honest because they both fill different roles and it really depends on your playstyle to decide that one.

For reference here was the last known Fish list I played, it got me Top 8.

1StripMine
3Wasteland
4Tundra
3U.sea
3Flooded
2Polluted
1Island
1Swamp - someone questioned the basic swamp

MoxJet
MoxSaphire
Lotus Petal -over Pearl because of Null Rods in the mirror and because it's rainbow effect.
Black Lotus

3Null Rod
4Dark Confidants
4Meddling Mage
3Jotun Grunt
3WaterFrontBouncer
2Kataki Wars Wage

4Force of Will
3Daze
4Duress
1ThoughtSeize - no more because of Bob Flips
2echoing Truth
2Stp

1Ancestral Recall
1TimeWalk
1Demonic Tutor chosen over Vampiric tutor because of life loss.

Someone had questioned the inclusion of a basic swamp in someones list elsewhere.  For me it's about playing around moon effects and wasteland, keeping Duress/confidant options online mid to late and certainly against early attacks.  The petal is there for a 3 colour effect vs the pearls limited use for playing W based cards. 2 echoing truth was to combat tokens which was a call back when ETW was heavily played and Ichorid started playing BFBs.  only 2 swords was a choice as the shop decks and GAT was not yet played, certainly this configuration would be changed in today's meta.  Null Rods were a meta call because of Stax, but certainly due to Rods slowness, Stifles could take these slots to combat many decks.  Another interesting choice would be 3 Extirpates, which would be strong versus welder tricks, Fetchlands and the combo of wasteland on duals with an extirpate.

at Arsenal:  I was reading on Thief as well, and it is something I would look at if I were to go back to playing Fish over SuperLong/Tropical Storm.

The issue that Fish players face right now is the wide variety of archtypes played, and having a sufficient number of hate cards to significantly affect the opponents deck.  Fish is at it's best when the meta is centered around a few decks, or at least decks that abuse very similar areas of play/cards.  Shop decks right now are really going to put it too Fish decks, and Tidespout Oath is a match that is 100% harder to win than traditional Oath, which was hard to win as it was.

Another couple cards to consider for Fish players today would be the old Seal of Cleansing for the artifact based decks that are showing up, as well as Tidespout Oath and Chalice of the void, which really hurts the SuperLong/ tropical storm player when set to 1.

I'm not sure if any of this helps, but I just wanted to get involved and keep Fish alive during this odd meta we are in right now.

Michael

[The Duressed]

Well, I figured I'd crawl back out from my little hole here and add my two cents' worth of insight:

Fish decks, are, obviously, based more or less on hate cards. The thing that you have to keep in mind with the deck, and the problem that most people have, I think, is this: Make sure your hate cards are general, yet powerful. The easiest example of this is Meddling Mage. He's a 2/2 for 2, and can shut down the most key card of any deck. So, obviously, you ask "Where can I go from here?" since you can't play 40 MM's. So what you want to do is still choose not to focus on the specific cards of this archetype or that. You want to play cards that are relevant against almost all decks. So, which cards are those? Why, Wastelands and Strip Mines, of course. You'll be pretty hard-pressed to come up with a deck that doesn't play at least 8 non-basic lands, and it'll be even harder to come up with a deck that doesn't rely on those nonbasic lands. Easy example: Workshops. The card name is in the title, for crying out loud. Another easy example: dual lands.

My point really boils down to this: don't focus on a single, specific card wrecking your face. If we were all worried about losing to Massacre, we'd have 4 Nix sideboard, but nobody does that. Massacre isn't in enough sideboards of decks to merit the inclusion of a sub-par counter like Nix. Swords to Plowshares is a fantastic card right now because the meta is saturated with creatures. More than one combo deck wins with a creature, all of the workshop decks require creatures, and all of the fish-type decks live and die with their creatures. The only deck type unaffected by Swords is pure storm combo, and you have enough resources to deal with that deck in other ways.

Play cards that are good against all of the decks, not just a few of them.

Re: Grimoire Thief: I wouldn't play this guy. It just seems like it will take too long to get him active and relevant. You have other cards that are full of hate just waiting to smite the other deck, and you also can't really afford to sacrifice the tempo lost by playing a creature that has no relevant turn 1 abilities (you get away with Jotun Grunt because he is a total beatstick and also has relevant abilities soon enough to matter).

[hauntedechos]

I've been pretty out of the Fish ideal loop for some time now, but this thread getting action has brought back interest in the deck from a building point of view anyways.

Duressed is right about a few things there.  Meddling Mage of course is pretty much the back bone of any U/W Fish build.  I also agree that the next logical step is the wastelands to continue with mana denial.  But where to go from there?  This is where the good Fish player looks at the weak points of each major deck and finds as many common attack points as possible ( I belive this is what Duressed was getting at).

So what do we know right now?
A) dudes are in
B) Robots and artifacts in general are in
C) casting costs are either very low in a deck, or the deck is cheating (IE Welder in Staxx and Shop decks, Flash etc.)
D)Almost everydeck (including Fish with Jotun) is abusing the yard.
E)Everyone loves the Gush/Bond engine with or w/o scrolls.
 
So what does Fish pack for this conundrum? (assuming U/W/B as the thread states). 

Dudes = Swords as the most efficient dude remover (don't be afraid to look at B based removers as well folks)

Robots/Artifacts = Kataki (because he is a walking Energy Flux) and if Staxx or fully powered decks are running rampant in your meta, dust off the ol' Null Rods, if not, then perhalps a number of Energy Flux are called for.
   
SIDE RANT:  Kataki is one of my favorite creatures in Magic next to Meddling Mage.  When played against a fully powered deck he epitomizes what Fish is all about, there is nothing more        exciting than watching power tap down to itself over a lowly rare. END SIDE RANT:

Lowcasting cost/cheating:  I don't have a hard and fast answer for this one.  I've been playing a R/B TMWA list against my Superlong/Tropical Storm list which houses 4 Chalice.  Chalice at 1 is a wrecking ball, and if Chalice at 2 hits, it's curtains.

[JankWolf]

Kataki isn't as great as one would think. A skilled stax/workshop player can play around him. Yes, I'll give you that he is annoying, but he is not game breaking. Workshop decks have both Trike and Duplicant and stax has welder. I would suggest running Energy Flux over Kataki any given day of the weak and twice on sunday. Reason is tapping workshop to save 3 artifacts vs tapping workshop to save 1.5 artifacts. Energy Flux wins over Kataki.

[Dxfiler]

Grimore Thief appears to be just what the doctor ordered for fish.  I started playing with it recently and it's pretty nuts.  I'm not sure if WUB fish is the best version for her to plug into but it'll probably be fine. 

The version that uwfish2000 top 4'd (congrats btw ) with recently is very close to the WUB I have built, right down to the 2 ponder.

This is a morningtide update of a WUB fish I'm still working on:


3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
3 tundra
3 underground sea
1 island
3 wasteland
1 strip mine

4 Meddling mage
4 Dark confidant
2 Grimmore thief
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Aven Mindcensor

4 force of will
3 daze
4 brainstorm
1 ancestrall recall
2 echoing truth
2 swords to plowshares

2 ponder
1 timewalk
3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress

1 black lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 lotus petal

sideboard:
4 leyline of the void
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 umezawa's jitte
4 seal of cleansing
2 Pithing Needle
1 Swords to Plowshares

There could easily be kataki main if stax is everywhere, but thief seems better as an all around option.  Again, I'm not sure WUB fish is the best place for him as far as fish goes, but he seems at the very least a solid addition.  Could be amazing, could be better as Kataki.  Still a little early to know for sure.

I'm not crazy about null rod because it means not playing with mindcensor...and mindcensor is still bonkers.  No mindcensor these days also usually means no stifle effects, and I'm a fan of having stifle effects in almost any build of fish.  Note that stifle effects doesn't always mean stifle.  Mindcensor is just strictly better than stifle right now and there simply isn't room for both, but I think that one should usually make the cut.  You want cards that keep opponents on their toes, and preferably cards that beat them upside the head while doing it.  Mindcensor fits both those roles.

I run petal over wasteland #4.  This is mainly because of mindcensor but also because I'm obsessed with petal :p

I think you must have plows main right now.  There are more creatures than normal due to gat and if you run into a match where they're dead you just side them out.  They're pretty much never dead though except against combo.

I like high blue counts.  20-23 blue cards seems correct for WUb fish at the moment.

I like one drops that aren't creatures.  Stormscape apprentice isn't cutting the mustard and lions/hounds don't work in WUB fish all that well.  Ponder fits the bill nicely.  You don't want too many because of brainstorm and thoughtseize but it helps set you up nicely.

Duress/Thoughtseize is not an easy call but I like having a mix of them.  Thoughtseize is strictly better but you want the random duress because 4 thoughtseize is alot of life-loss and again the mix keeps people on their toes.  You could do pretty much any mix but I like having usually 4 discard spells so personally 3 seize/1 duress works.

I'm still not a fan of anything under 14 creatures and right now I like having 15-16.  There's enough disruptors in fish where you should always have access to them where you need them.  Too much disruption doesn't work when you can't back it up with pressure.  Preferably you want guys that acts as disruptors and pressue, the white ones usually fit that bill the best.  Grunt is still good I just don't know about 3 of him.  If thief doesn't work out I'd probably go up to 3 but g. thief seems very solid at the moment.  All the other creature selections seem pretty self-explanatory but any questions just ask =D

That's about it for now.  I think fish is in good shape with grimmore thief.  The issue is what version benefits most off him.  My gut says RU or mono u (yes I think it's risen from the dead :p).  But WU, WUB and RUB all seem to be able to easily fit him in.  Basically thief might be what fish has been waiting for to be truly competitive once again.

I'll be testing different versions of fish when I can.  Good to see people actively playing it still.

- Dave Feinstein 

[Everrid1234]

The Duressed said (nearly) everything i would have to say   Great cards wich are applied generally are the way to go.

@Grimoire Thief:. This guy seems to be random, he needs 2-4 attacks to become effective (my impression). If you want some backbreaking creature against combo-decks, play Rootwater Thief. He is effective for sure, takes what you like and you don't have to sac him. Yes, activation costs 2 mana, i know. But having U open each turn also nerves.His countering doesn't stop storm, so it does NOT replace Stifle. I would not play him. Don't try to construct scenarios where he is very good since normally you for example duressed the opponent long before you drop the Thief
. Fish needs to drop something what should immediately affect the game. Or even play Voidmage Prodigy over the new Thief.

@Kataki: As you have to expect not only a few Stax decks on each real tournament I don't see a reason playing him in the side, he brings powered decks down to Fish's power level.

@JadeWolf:
"Reason is tapping workshop to save 3 artifacts vs tapping workshop to save 1.5 artifacts. Energy Flux wins over Kataki."
Lol. Have fun with tapping Workshops for paying Kataki's upkeep cost.
Of course Flux is better. But how good is Flux under a Thorn of Amethyst and how good is Kataki? We can't finish discussing here becasue both have advantages. If you have the SB space for Fluxes, ok.

@ Mindcensors: Well, they could be really nice in theory as we discussed at least 5 times. But without power he comes too late and with power means that the opponent also has power and this should not be (what i want to say: Null Rod overall seems better)

[hauntedechos]

With every deck running at least some power, Kataki affects everything.  With the current trend of shop decks and Stax to rise against GAT , kataki seems to be even better.  What Dave said is true, look at your meta, if artifacts aren't heavy in your meta and Combo decks are, then yes perhalps Mind Censors are the better call.  Stifle effects are at a premium to be sure, but I'm unsure as to wether Stifle or Mind Censor is the right call, again it's up to the local meta you are expecting.

Against shpo decks and Staxx, having at least 1 extra kataki and 1 Flux on the board is huge for you.  Yes mono R Stax has R answers, but that's where threat density and trying to protect your hate comes in doesn't it?

In concerns with Grim thief:  the card  only says it has to become tapped, which means you don't HAVE to attack to tap him.  you can just choose to tap your creature if an attack is not possible for some reason.  To be sure the flip and counter effect is wonderfull if timed properly with the right cards removed (which requires luck really), but I think the real damage done is the fact that you are removing cards that your opponent's deck and he/she doesn't know which ones.  it could be anything which creates a mind game against them and Fish loves the mind games, in fact thats what skilled Fish players use to win games with Fish, isn't that right Dave?  Do I think this puts Fish back into the meta? I'm unsure, I've went on to play Storm decks so I haven't tested anything Fish lately aside from TMWA R/B lists.

I can't say enough that Chalice is a huge tool versus Combo.  I know that Avens are in style right now, but as someone who's been playing Combo for even a little while, I really don't mind aven with the Combo  deck that I'm playing.  Aven only really shuts down the Fetches against me as I've seen, which is not a big deal with the brainstorms and Ponders etc.  The other thing is, he's comming in on turn 2 the earliest (barring a turn 1 land Black lotus crack for Aven, or land mox mox etc)

I agree that a mix of Duress and Thoughtseize is huge for Fish.  I personally ran 1 thoughtseize and 4 Duress.  The reason being is that I liked the increased chance of turn 1 Duress effect, which is my personal favourite play for Fish as it starts things off with a bang, and you want other decks to blow counters early due to the lack of your own.  I could see running a max of 2, because of the bob flips and fetch damage.

I have decided that 16 is the magic number for me in Fish for creatures.  the reason?  I want 3 Waterfront bouncers and 2 kataki Main.  With all the creatures running around, the density of spells you have to deal with them is imperative. 2 swords and e.truth to deal with GAT? 2 swords and 2 e.tructh to deal with shop?  I don't think so.  Of course you can SB for games 2-3 for hate cards, but you really want game 1 to have game against the field.  There are many main and SB options they have as well, but the point is, if dudes are the trend then Fish's dudes need to trump them.  5 ways to deal with dudes seems like the nice number for me, same as with Duress effects.  Also Bouncer and Confidants are a nice team, and also give you an out if the flips hurt too much.  I'd rather pitch junk from my hand than burn a swords on him.  In the mirror, Bouncers really wreck Fish the same way Tidespout oath would wreck Fish.

Another card that Fish really needs to think about is Extirpate.  This card doesn't see play because there is no trend for it for one reason or another.  Against control heavy decks it is an uncounterable way to rip the counter wall out of them and bring them closer to Fish's counter count.  Against ritual Combo it takes much of the fire out of them.  The list can go on and on really.  it's reactive in nature of course, but it's the after effect of it that can be crippling.

just some more input from myself.

[Arsenal]

@Grimoire Thief:. This guy seems to be random, he needs 2-4 attacks to become effective (my impression). If you want some backbreaking creature against combo-decks, play Rootwater Thief. He is effective for sure, takes what you like and you don't have to sac him. Yes, activation costs 2 mana, i know. But having U open each turn also nerves.His countering doesn't stop storm, so it does NOT replace Stifle. I would not play him. Don't try to construct scenarios where he is very good since normally you for example duressed the opponent long before you drop the Thief
. Fish needs to drop something what should immediately affect the game. Or even play Voidmage Prodigy over the new Thief.

Unless I'm misreading the oracle text for Grimoire Thief, his countering ability DOES stop lethal Storm.  "Counter all spells with those names."  If Grimoire Thief has a Tendrils of Agony RFG, and your opponent has 14 copies of Tendrils of Agony on the stack, how does Thief not counter all spells named Tendrils of Agony???  Oh wait, it does.  This is why Grimoire Thief = Stifle 5-8 potentially.

And I disagree wholly with your statement of Grimoire Thief not making an impact until 4 turns later; the moment he resolves his presense is felt.  No longer can your opponent Brainstorm in response to your Thoughtseize and smirk; by threatening Thief, your opponent faces difficult decisions re: the top of their deck.  Brainstorm, Ponder, Sensei's Divining Top, etc.

Grimoire Thief has minimal mana requirements in order for him to be effective.  Grimoire Thief can just swing for 2 like normal and disrupt your Ponder loving opponent.  Or, for U (just like Stifle), he can potentially stop a 14 Storm lethal stack.  Rootwater Thief requires a minimum for 2 mana per turn in order to be effective, 3 if he's planning on flying over Goyfs.  That is a HUGE investment, one that will cost you game-breaking tempo.  Great, so you spend 3 per turn on Rootwater Thief, but you're not laying other creatures, and if you do, then Rootwater Thief is swinging for 1 pt?  No thanks, I'll take my 2/2 for 2, that can disrupt for FREE, and can potentially counter a problematic card for U.

[wiley]

The whole "counters storm" point is all but moot as most competative storm deck only run one copy of either storm spell (ETW or tendrils) MD and have the backup copies in SB.  It won't be nearly often enough that you rip their storm card with this guy.

As has been already stated he will be best in the role of adding more pressure to your opponent, causing them to think harder about their normally safe plays and hopefully slipping up. 

I don't think it's a bad card by any means, but you should look at the actual countering portion to be going after normal 4 ofs (FoW, Gush etc.) instead of looking at the awesomeness of being stifle 5-8 when you are building a deck.

[Arsenal]

I agree, but the possibility of acting as Stifle 5-8 cannot be overlooked by your opponent; if he plays 2x ToA, chances are he'll spend resources bounce/kill Grimoire Thief before going off just in case.

And yes, the primary disruption comes from RFG ability, not Stifle 5-8.  I agree.  The fact that the RFG ability is (1.) free, and (2.) forces your opponent to rethink his once-automatic "Brainstorm in response" is something that I feel fits into Fish's "utility creatures, look what I can do to mess the opponent over while still swinging for 2 pts."

And RFG your opponent FoW, then usnig Thief to counter your opponent's 2nd FoW is pretty nice.  I like Grimoire Thief, definitely disrupts your opponent and can save you in a pinch.

Also, hauntedechoes hit the nail on the head; Grimoire Thief plays massive mind-games with your opponent.  You either RFG his bombs, or his bomb-finders.  Either way, it can sometimes alter the course of a game if you snag his crucial kill card, or his equally crucial tutor/draw/engine spell... 

I don't think writing off Grimoire Thief can be done so soon without proper testing. 


EDIT: To address the previously mentioned, "Thief isn't good enough because we need creatures to be actively hating the moment they resolve (with the exception of Grunt as Duressed claims)" is just flast out wrong.  Waterfront Bouncer does nothing for you the moment he resolves, nor does Dark Confidant the moment he resolves, nor does Grunt actually.  Grimoire Thief actually does do something the moment he resolves; he forces your opponent to instantly rethink how/when to stack the top of his deck.  Aside from Kataki & Mage, you have to wait until your next turn before your creatures start "doing something" for you.  Thief falls more in line with Kataki and Mage, imo, as he instantly alters your opponent cantrips and library stacks.

[Arsenal]

*dbl post* sorry.

[The Duressed]

So you're telling me that Dark Confidant doesn't have board presence? In a deck like Fish, your opponent has to assume that, now that you're drawing at least 2 cards a turn, you will draw either more disruption, more card draw, or a better clock, no matter what. It's nothing more than wishful thinking to believe that the Fish player won't start drawing way more business now that the Confidant is on the table. He also speeds up your clock. Jotun Grunt speeds up your clock even more, and very soon will mess up your opponent's game-ending Will, or makes Tarmogoyf smaller. Your opponent has to re-think what his plan is. You can't tell us that Thief alters the game because he affects cantrips, while Confidant or Grunt do not. To be perfectly blunt, though, this argument is probably useless and a waste of everyone's time. You can argue that just about any creature does or does not have board presence and does or does not affect the game state. The point becomes, then, how does it help your board position?

Milling with Grimoire Thief is interesting, and probably useful. However, keep this in mind (getting back to my point about general answers instead of specific counters): creatures are popular. Everywhere. If you can't beat creatures, you lose. So how, in that environment, can anybody say that something like Grimoire Thief will be continually effective? The reason that Fish isn't doing as well is because people are just plopping down dudes like Tarmogoyf and Solemn Simulacrum, and not focusing on storm and crap like that. Anything as big as a Trinket Mage or bigger just owns everything you play, except for your Grunts (and Mindcensors, if you use those). So, the reason why I don't like Grimoire Thief is the same reason that I don't like Ninja of the Deep Hours or Dimir Cutpurse: They're bad against creatures. If your opponent even has a 3/3 Dryad (not inconceivable by any means), your little Thief is done for the day. Congratulations, you're now playing a vanilla 2/2. If you really want to mill somebody, play Glimpse the Unthinkable.

[Arsenal]

This is what you intially posted about Thief:

Re: Grimoire Thief: I wouldn't play this guy. It just seems like it will take too long to get him active and relevant. You have other cards that are full of hate just waiting to smite the other deck, and you also can't really afford to sacrifice the tempo lost by playing a creature that has no relevant turn 1 abilities (you get away with Jotun Grunt because he is a total beatstick and also has relevant abilities soon enough to matter).

By this logic, I was simply pointing out that Confidant, Bouncer, Grunt, Kataki would be equally useless as they do not have, as you put it, "turn 1 abilities".  Nowhere did you ever state anything about "board presense".

Also, re: your above statement about board presense, Grimoire Thief has loads of it.  Again, he instantly forces your opponent to rethink Brainstorm/Ponder (which is played in many decks).  This is relevant, imo.

Also, it's not just milling your opponent (which he can get back later via Will, etc), it's RFG.  Forever.  And not just RFG, but with the very real possibility of you countering a relevant spell later on in a crucial moment (FoW, StP, etc).  And your argument about why Thief isn't good because it's "bad against creatures" doesn't make any sense.  Using that logic, Meddling Mage (2/2), Kataki (2/1), and Confidant (2/1) shouldn't be played either.

Your logic, to me, seems inconsistent about why regular Fish creatures are "good", but Thief is "bad".  Thief shares a common weakness with the other Fish creatures of being a 2/* creature for 2 mana, but shares a common strength with the other FIsh creatures of having an insane disrupting ability.

[JankWolf]

"Have fun with tapping Workshops for paying Kataki's upkeep cost".
Sorry about that, I had a minor brain fart. But the whole fact stands true with mana usage with flux vs Kataki though.

[Everrid1234]

It is nice to see new lists. The only change in my list is:


SB: -Grunt + Mindcensor .yes, a random censor, could be also another Thoughtseize. Just to optimize the deck post-sb a bit against tutor-heavy combo. Questionable slot.

Regarding Shadowmages: Everyone says they are too slow. But i really liked them, and I tested lots of games with them. To admit, I only play on MWS, but I think i can distinguish very skilled players from mediocre ones and I only mind the good ones when I say that a card was good in this or that matchup. I board them vs aggro (hehe, they are better here than the Confidants) since they can guarantee a few Jitte counters and don't let me run out of gas. I board them in against nearly each deck type. They wipe away my fear of TFK, Gush etc since I know that just drawing more, attack here, Duress there brings me to the win.

Ponder in Fish? Well, why play Ponder over an eot tutor? Yes, card disadvantage. But Ponder is not good enough imo. Much worse than Brainstorm. You draw either a random card or a medium to nice card without shuffeling. It is OK, but there are better cards for this slot.
Remember the tutors can bring up Ancestral to lower the card disadvantage effect of the eot tutors. Vampiric can bring up Confidant and fast answers like E. Truth. 

@Grimoire Thief:. This guy seems to be random, he needs 2-4 attacks to become effective (my impression). If you want some backbreaking creature against combo-decks, play Rootwater Thief. He is effective for sure, takes what you like and you don't have to sac him. Yes, activation costs 2 mana, i know. But having U open each turn also nerves.His countering doesn't stop storm, so it does NOT replace Stifle. I would not play him. Don't try to construct scenarios where he is very good since normally you for example duressed the opponent long before you drop the Thief
. Fish needs to drop something what should immediately affect the game. Or even play Voidmage Prodigy over the new Thief.

Unless I'm misreading the oracle text for Grimoire Thief, his countering ability DOES stop lethal Storm.  "Counter all spells with those names."  If Grimoire Thief has a Tendrils of Agony RFG, and your opponent has 14 copies of Tendrils of Agony on the stack, how does Thief not counter all spells named Tendrils of Agony???  Oh wait, it does.  This is why Grimoire Thief = Stifle 5-8 potentially.

Uh, brain fart here, too. I didn't take the time to completely read the cards text.
Well, this makes the card a bit better against storm but as it was said: It is not really probable to get the storm card fast enough. Even worse: Most decks play 2-3 win conditions: Tinkerlossus, ETW and Tendrils. I don't think the storm player really cares about the thief. Sure, he is a bit afraid because the Fish play MAY remove an important card during ONE of the NEXT turns...but maybe not. Because of that i assumed that it takes 2-4 turns to be effective....what is a bit late against decks which go off turn 3-4 the latest. At this point you made 1-2 attacks. For me the card doesn't provide an assured hate like the other cards.

It's a bit for me like with the Mindcensors.... I thought: "Wow, nice effect, I add 3" but after some testing and realizing that most of the tutoring action is done when he is casted, I removed him from the Main. But I am still not totally sure about him since the effect can be really nice, but mostly against slower combo and Gush, so he is a bit narrow imo. Since combo is the opponent where the thief is (maybe) really good against, you wouldn't have to make Rootwater Thief flying. So the cost is 2 and rips out a win condition for sure. I agree, paying 2 each turn is a no-go (although i like Rootwater Thiefs effect very much!). Which doesn't make Grimoire a very good creature.
It is of course nice playing a Duress before attacking while Grimoire is online. But this is a constructed situation. As I said, in most cases the opponent IS already duressed. If the opponent Brainstorms/Ponders cleverly, he can get rid of bad cards. I wouldn't say that the presence of Grimoire has such a high impact.

You really can't compare Kataki or Meddling Mage to the Thief because the first two don't have to attack to disturb the opponent. They can sit there an nerve while the Thief can be blocked and does nothing when he doesn't attack. I assume an aggro scenario since you were discussing about this matchup. So he is only effective against combo decks (imo) which is too narrow. Does Stax care about him? Does control (maybe a bit)? Does Aggro? Does Oath? Does Flash? Does Ichorid? Hm. Think about against which archetype this guy really rocks and tell me. My impression is that the deck type against most decks are currently optimized is a sort of Grow/Tropical Storm/ Empty Gifts. Is this the archetype played with the highest count on tournaments?

Hauntedechos, how can he be tapped without attacking? Is there a rule I don't know?
@ Extirpate: Can be nice, yes. But I think in most cases a Thoughtseize is better and you have to have SB space for Extirpate. Maybe there are just better cards to be included.

About the "creature has to be effective immediately": It is hard to compare the different creatures. Meddling and Kataki are effective (nearly) instantly, Confi lets you win the game if the opponent does not win during the next 2-3 turns (in my experience) and Jotun makes Yawgwill weaker the next upkeep. Yes, this is not immediately, the word was not chosen properly, but it is an effect you can be sure about to happen. That you don't rely on "maybes". Yes, after 3 turns the Thief can also become great. Maybe.

And maybe I was writing crap and he is really good since I didn't test him, but this is my view on its ability.

[The Duressed]

The reason why I don't like Grimoire Thief is the same reason that I don't like Ninja of the Deep Hours or Dimir Cutpurse: They're bad against creatures. If your opponent even has a 3/3 Dryad (not inconceivable by any means), your little Thief is done for the day. Congratulations, you're now playing a vanilla 2/2. If you really want to mill somebody, play Glimpse the Unthinkable.

The creatures I mentioned have to attack unblocked to be useful. Meddling Mage, Kataki, Confidant, etc., do not. That's probably my biggest beef with Grimoire Thief.

[Dxfiler]

I just got back from ELD's tourney.  I played UWB fish for the first time in months.  I did well enough where I'm doing a mini-report here but no full size feinstein-esque report :p

The tourney had 29 people.  Small but very tough field as always.  This was my list:

// Lands
    3  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    3  Underground Sea
    3  Flooded Strand
    3  Polluted Delta
    1  Island
    4  Tundra

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Meddling Mage
    3  Jotun Grunt
    2  Kataki, War's Wage

// Spells
    4  Force of Will
    3  Swords to Plowshares
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Time Walk
    3  Duress
    1  Mox Jet
    3  Daze
    1  Mox Pearl
    3  Null Rod
    1  Thoughtseize
    2  Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 2  Echoing Truth
SB: 4  Seal of Cleansing
SB: 2  Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 2  Pithing Needle
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void


Round 1- Oliver /w Bomberman- Rods were insane in this match.  Sided in another kataki.  He mulliganed to 5 game 2.
1-0

Round 2- Stefan /w GAT- Won the die roll which allowed me to duress him before he could do the same to me.   Destroyed his mana base and won handily after that.  Game 2 he drew 14 cards in one turn and failed to find a fastbond or yawgwill.  My turn 2 Grunt somehow went all the way.  :p
2-0

Round 3- Scott /w Mono red Workshop- Game 1 shows him with a good start that includes juggs and multiple welders but plows run wild and then he becomes mana flooded.  Game 2 I sideboarded wrong and didn't bring in needle.  He had multiple welders that shut down my seals.  Game 3 I do have needles and both in my opening hand which leads to a very hard decision of what to name with my turn one mage.  I was going to name welder but with 2 needle I decided to name black lotus because that was what I viewed to be the most devastating card for me.  The rest of my hand contained daze and kataki so if he comes out at normal pace then I don't think I can lose.  I name lotus but it ends up not mattering as he had a very waste-heavy draw without a quick start.  It turns out his opening hand was 3 welder (nice mage name :p) but he never got any of them down. 
Even if he had I just needed one needle to name welder.  I led out with mox/land so I shut off my own lotus I could draw, but i don't need it anymore and you just have to remember to pay for needle when kataki is out, which I did later on.

3-0

Round 4 and 5 Draw

I'm 1st seed after top 8... facing Oliver again. :p

Game 1 is long but it comes down again to a mage name that happened very early.  I went with trinket mage and he did in fact have it in his hand, but then drew 2 salvagers in a row and although I got rid of one, the other one eventually combo'd off in my face.  This led me to wonder if I should've named salvagers to begin with but I did make the right read it just turned out wrong.

Game 2 I just flat out misplayed horribly :p  It was one play that led to a sequence of bad things that would not have happened if I just took the right card.  My opener has me lead out with thoughtseize over duress and Oliver reveals sower, force, salvagers, explosives.  I take force.  This is horrible :p  I need to take the sower here because Duress can't actually take it and i knew I'd be following up with duress.  I also had a mage and rod in my hand so if I just take the damn sower the first time around all is well.  Unfortuantely I didn't and because of that my duress is forced to take his explosives.  When my mage comes down it is forced to name sower which means his salvagers can come out to play.  If I took sower from the start then I can duress fow, drop mage on salvagers, drop rod... then have the game completely locked up.  I completely screwed up the sequence of future events when I took the force with the thoughtseize and I knew it as soon as I named the wrong card.  Oliver ends up eventually beating me down with multiple salvagers and I'm kicking myself for throwing away the game.  Again it was only one play and it happened on turn 1 but it was H-U-G-E and you really can't make mistakes like that with this deck.  You have to play almost near perfect if you're going to play fish and you need to gameplan out future turns.  I had the game-plan part right I just took the wrong card with my turn 1 play.  Me is bad :p

So had I did things different I'm pretty sure we were headed for game 3, but there was no guarantee I was going to take the match.  Oliver is about as good as they come with bomberman and he did end up winning the tourney.  He took out many good people along the way, including a very fun to watch final round swiss match with Rich shay that determined who would make top 8.  So I was happy for Oliver.  I sure do wish I didn't screw up though :p

Anyway I like this deck very much.  I was thrilled with the rods and there isn't anything I would've changed looking back.

Not sure if I'll run it again but for the time being I recommend it.

I hope this helped.  Cya later.

- Dave



 

[Everrid1234]

Nice list! How were the Stifles doing? Were the 13 creatures enough?

I would play it - Tundra - Grunt   + Kataki + Stifle  if you want to go with Stifle.

Hm this could maybe be a better configuration then my 2 Tutors and the lone Echoing since Echoing is mainly for Warrens tokens. Hm hm.....difficult.

[uwfish2000]

congrats dave, but why 2 stifles?

is there no ichorid player? becouse i think you can't handle zombie token.

[hauntedechos]

Good work Dave!!

It's nice to see a solid name in Fish playing a tourny and getting results.  I can see how the 13 creatures opened up more board space for spells to combat decks, but were there any times when you felt you wanted more dudes?

I noticed that since your last post, there was a lack of Avens.  Was this a meta call or a change in heart?

The 2 Stifles were allowed in the main by taking the creatures down to 13 I am guessing.  In this meta, how good were they across the field of decks you played against?  Would you consider them to be better or worse than Avens where cards they both affect are concerned.  As a last point, would you consider the effects of Stifle to be more or less usefull than Avens abilities?

Null Rods were insane for you in the Bomberman match.  Is this in conjunction with Kataki or stand alone?  Were there other matches where Rods were close to or as huge for you?

It seems that the use of W to deal with the R Shop match was incredible for you.  Could you possibly talk a little more on how you feel Fish could/should approach this matchup?

NOTE:  for some silly reason I thought that a player could choose to tap a creature even if there was no tapping abilities for that creature.  The reason for this is, when I played a slaver match a couple years ago, the player told me that I was going to tap all my lands and creatures during my slaved turn.  Apparently I'm a twit and should sell my cards right now lol.

Once again Dave, nice going.  I've been playing Storm as of late, but I tell yeah, reading this mini report really makes me want to dig the U/W/B list out that we used to talk about.

cheers

[Dxfiler]

I can see how the 13 creatures opened up more board space for spells to combat decks, but were there any times when you felt you wanted more dudes?

Going down to 13 creatures was the toughest deceision.  It was made because I wanted exactly 2 stifle main.  I'll get to stifle more in a second.  Basically I don't like going below 14 creatures and never have previously in fish, but I felt that in the current meta skimping on one guy was going to be ok because the disruption package I have.  Duress/Stifle/Thoughtseize/Rod and Kataki coupled with wastes was by far the most disruption I've ever packed into the deck at one time.  I did this specifically for GAT as it is the best deck in the format and there would be a large amount of players with that deck... many of them being insanely good.

I noticed that since your last post, there was a lack of Avens.  Was this a meta call or a change in heart?

Aven was just not doing enough in testing for me to want to put him in over stifle or rod.  The GAT match was the main reason why I cut him.  Sure he's fine when he came down, but usually by the time he did GAT was well on the way to winning because they already fetched/scroll'd/tutor'd.  Rod and Kataki don't stop any of that stuff but are both still effective in the match, particularly rod.  Other than fastbond, an early rod is able to shut off all of GAT's broken starts because they all rely on fast artifact mana.

Null Rods were insane for you in the Bomberman match.  Is this in conjunction with Kataki or stand alone?  Were there other matches where Rods were close to or as huge for you?

Rods were great for bomberman but the main reason I played with them was because almost all of the GAt builds are now 4 color.  That means a 4th mox and in many cases one less land.  GAT's mana base was shaky enough before this change but now it's more fragile than ever.  This is where fish must attack.  You have to rely on your disruptors to screw with their mana base enough so that you can eek out wins because their card-drawing is better than yours and their creatures are better than yours.
I knew going into this tourney that all of the GAT would be 4 color so decided to give rod a try.  I did not regret this decision and don't see rod leaving the deck anytime soon.

It seems that the use of W to deal with the R Shop match was incredible for you.  Could you possibly talk a little more on how you feel Fish could/should approach this matchup?

Workshop might be the only match where you can worry about one spell at a time and actually be the reactive deck.  All you have to do is nullify their broken plays and eventually your creatures and card-drawing will get the best of them.  Workshop, particularly mono-red which is very popular right now, needs to go broken to beat you.  Their broken plays against fish revolve mainly around welder and magus of the moon.  Sword of F/I obviously wrecks you but it's usually too slow to be a factor.  You should always have an answer to sword by the time they are able to get it online.  Magus is scary and a big reason why i'm considering a maindeck plains but again if you play around it you should be ok.  Welder is the scariest card to me because you have to answer it or they will win.  It may take a while but once they get fuel for welder it's going to be over... and you don't have a fast enough clock to stop them before they draw something useful.

The MVP for this match is not going to be a surprise... it's Kataki!  :p  I maindecked him mainly for this match although I feel he's solid across the board.  I added a third plow for this match also because you want to answer welder and quick juggernauts can be scary.  Meddling mage is awfully handy as he names trike, which is the scariest late game creature.  Naming magus or sword of f/i is fairly common also.  I named solemn simulacrum once because my opponent had more of him then juggernaut left in his deck and I felt awful after doing it.  I actually had pains in my stomach.  Solemn just isn't a big enough threat for you to care about... sure it's cute with welder but it isn't going to instantly pwn you like a juggernaut.

Seals come in for this match as well as the extra kataki.  Rods go out and usually a daze or two if im on the draw.  I like all dazes being in when im on the play.  Stifle if you have room to keep it in is fine here but again needle is probably better.  Personally I'm not crazy about either one but you usually want one of them in, probably needle.  Naming welder is very common but I have named strip/wasteland in the past and although it hasn't come up yet... one day i'm going to need to name sword of fire and ice and needle is going to be looking at me bright-eyed and bushy tailed waiting to be used.

is there no ichorid player? becouse i think you can't handle zombie token.

I can't handle Ichorid game 1 no matter what I maindeck short of leylines.  There was only one Ichorid in the room, and I would've faced him in top 4 had I beaten Oliver.  My Ichorid matches are always the same thing.  I lose game 1 and then bring in 4 leylines and some combination of needles/jailers... this is usually good enough.  I have a winning record against Ichorid despite never winning game 1.  You just have to know how to attack it.  Dazes always stay in because they are nice against emerald charm and can come up once in a while against reverence silence.  Needle always always always named Baazar.  You pretty much have to have leyline in opener which sucks when you get a nice opener without it but you need it to win, so just mulligan to it.  Once you get leyline in hand your entire mission is to protect it at all costs.  This is where meddling mage comes up big.  If you protect leyline then you should be fine.  If they get it off the board that can be ok if needle is out naming bazzar.  Grunt can come up big sometimes too.  If you have leyline out long enough you'll usually get to the point where your other cards will matter and simply overwhelm them with threats/disruptors.  If you keep that stuff in mind then your Ichorid match shouldn't be too bad, but I'm still not crazy about facing it.

Hopefully that answered people's questions.  Thanks for the feedback.  =D

- Dave Feinstein

[Everrid1234]

Hi Dave,

I agree in nearly each point you talked about. You have the same thoughts about the Mindcensors as me. I think only the creatures you play are worth it to be played in Fish Maindeck.
But siding out Null Rod against Stax is no good idea, especially against the Red Aggro Stax builds. Null Rod allows you to name other cards like Crucible, Welder or Chalice (!!) with the Mage since Trisk and Equipment is shut off. I know, people say that Stax plays Null Rod sometimes in its Maindeck by itself and that Rod doesn't matter in this match, but I didn't read of any of these builds winning tournaments or reaching realy high positions so this argument is not realistic. If you look at Stax' lists you see: FULL Power with Mana Vault/Crypt/Sol Ring. This tells me to keep Rod in the 2nd game. If a deck plays cards it relies on using these. Playing Kataki means playing Null Rod. Shutting of their artifact power, wasting the lone Workshop and dropping Kataki is gg for Fish in 95% of all games.

If you got a Jotun, a Confi/Ancestral for further draw in the 2nd game against Ichorid, maybe a Wasteland, you can pretty much keep the hand without mulliganing to Leyline. This is what makes Grunt so strong.
I would like all of you to play this deck on tournaments and you will see that chances are good to beat each tier 1 archetype

What do you think about adding a Vampiric Tutor? Mystical Tutor is questionable imo, but for me the Vamp is a must.

To bore you again, my actual list (low on lands and Stifles), as you know not only optimized against the current meta but also against standard u/r/b control, PlatinumControl and normal aggro:

4 Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Kataki

3 on-color-Moxen
1 Black Lotus

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Duress
1 Thoughtseize

2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Echoing Truth
3 Null Rod
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Mystical
1 Vampiric

3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:
1 Duress
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Swords to Pl
2 Jitte
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Disenchant

Here is a link to a shorter and older UWb thrad, maybe you get some ideas out of it:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?s=117318684db77a3fe6c2842386d2ba89&t=76536

[Dxfiler]

Hi Dave

Hi Everrid

I agree in nearly each point you talked about. You have the same thoughts about the Mindcensors as me. I think only the creatures you play are worth it to be played in Fish Maindeck.

Although I'm happy with the creatures I currently play, it's dangerous to have the mindset that only those creatures are worth it.  The metagame evolves constantly and fish has to adapt with it.  Mindcensor could be crap today, gold tomorrow.  Kataki could be the other way around.  It's all in what people are playing around you.  Right now, Kataki is pretty bonkers so I use him... but that could easily change and I'm always keeping my eyes out on how to optimize the deck.

If you look at Stax' lists you see: FULL Power with Mana Vault/Crypt/Sol Ring. This tells me to keep Rod in the 2nd game. If a deck plays cards it relies on using these. Playing Kataki means playing Null Rod. Shutting of their artifact power, wasting the lone Workshop and dropping Kataki is gg for Fish in 95% of all games.

I can tell you that if I had needle over rod for game 2, I ran away with the game.  All I really needed to do was stop Welder.  He can have all the acceleration in the world.  As long as I'm able to handle his threats then I'm set.  The problem is welder allowed threat recursion, where needle would've stopped it.  I would've been able to needle him to death.  :p 

Also, wasting a workshop doesn't really cut it anymore.  Workshop aggro usually runs City of Traitors and/or Ancient Tomb... not to mention Academy always being a must-waste taget.  Sure, rod shutting off their artifact mana is nice, but it's not a necessity.  They are going to push our threats no matter what, so it's important to have cards that focus on stopping those threats.  Also, rod is close to useless if somehow I get an artifact in my yard... most common scenario being lotus.  Now if they get active welder, which is fairly common in this match, I no longer have rod when I'll need it.

What do you think about adding a Vampiric Tutor? Mystical Tutor is questionable imo, but for me the Vamp is a must.

Vampiric is the worst tutor you could add of the big 3.  Life Loss is the worst possible thing for this deck as there's already plenty of ways to ding yourself.  Demonic is just plain not worth it even though power-wise it's clearly the best of the 3.  The only one I could see making its way in here is mystical... and that's mainly because it's blue.  It doesn't provide card advantage, merely card selection... which just isn't good enough in the current state of the format.

Your list looked fine.  I'd prob cut a kataki and definitely the vamp, but that's about it.

Thanks again for the comments, I hope mine helped.

- Dave

[Everrid1234]

Hi Dave,

of course the creature choices change from time to time. But imo it will take a long time and a real revolutionary shift in the metagame or a really good new creature to change something.

It seems like you are scared by the Welder. This (and other things) are the reason why I like the tutors so much. Game 2 i have 6 StP while a deck without the tutors has a maximum of 4. I can save space in the SB concerning Seals of Cleansing etc.
I never felt Welder being such a big threat because in the Aggro-Stax matches I knew he would mull to Something like Welder/Magus or a fat artifact so I try to get a hand with a solution for at least one of these 2. Furthermore, our draw is so good (Brainstorm, Confi, Anc, Walk) that we should get one of the multiple Swords fast enough. For sure he shouldn't stay on the table for too long, I know what he can do. But it takes time and some luck for the Shop-player to get the really big threats in the grave and then out of it.
For me the focus is more on the Artifacts. I still have the normal non-aggro Stax Decks in mind and you know the current meta in real life better than me. But still the deck can only play 4 Welders. What leaves Magus, which would be my choice nr 1 for the Meddling Mage in this Matchup.

That Rod is weldable shouldn't be an argument since 1. he is too good 2. Welder can be killed 3. Lotus is restricted.

What about the Threads of Disloyalty? Isn't just StP better here? StP can remove anything fast. But...you play in the current meta. I think that's the reason you play Threads, grabbing a big Dryad is nice, Goyf, too. Overall StP just looks better and more flexible.

Greetings

EDIT: I see that most lists play at least 2 more colored lands then me. Maybe it is a bit too optimistic that my manabase won't be attacked strong enough by the enemy to keep me away from casting my spells. I think I have to cut 2 spells and add 1 Tundra and 1 Underground Sea. I really don't want to do this but it seems that the deck isn't stable without more lands.

[hauntedechos]

I was thinking that with kataki #3, you've already got Stax and shop decks bending over to pay for themselvs.  That Null Rod prevents them from doing that is not as great a boon as having Welder pinned down to keep them from comming back.  if the Welder is active, then it doesnt' really mind buying time to bring the darn things back into play and possibly causeing big  headaches.  Also, if you feel that you are not so worried about welder, then certainly you will can use Needle on Bazaar when playing Stax.

In terms of creature selection, I think that the right mixture has been looked at.  They cover a broad range, give draw and are of the most effective.  Of course the meta will change and new creatures will be found to use and abuse.  Personally, I choose to run Bouncers main.  In this meta they seem to be great, even helping out with the shop and stax matchup where Welder is concerned.  In GAT and other decks, you can see where it is good.  In the mirror, true there is swords, but with Confidants and grunts and mages running around, how many creatures are you really going to stop before the bouncer gets online?

cheers
Michael

[The Duressed]

I played in a tournament last weekend (check out the Blue Bell results), and Waterfront Bouncers were completely worthless, even with the inclusion of recurring Wastelands (Life from the Loam). I sided them out for Trygon Predators all day long. It's not really even that effective against GAT anymore, because the T stands for Tarmogoyf. They come into play already grown. Waterfront Bouncer sending back a grown Dryad was pretty sweet, but it's just not working that well anymore.

The only reason it wasn't a dead draw in every single game is because it's blue, and because it's got legs (Jitte was some good).

[Patoon]

Hey guys,

We have recently kicked off some semi-regular vintage tournaments in Sydney Australia. We had our first decent tournament last weekend, in which i played GAT, and well unsure whether it was my bad play or just the meta, i didnt do as well as planned.

Anyway, after seeing the meta, which is still in its infancy, i consider UWb Fish as probably a good meta choice. I wonder if you would concur, and if so what list configuration.

Here are the deck which came last week.

1st - Stax
2nd - Uba Stax
3rd - Platinum Angel Oath
4th - Food Chain Goblins
5th - Hulk Flash
6th - Mono Blue Fish
7th - GAT
8th - Super Long
9th - Mono Red Aggro Shop