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Author Topic: Ritual Gifts  (Read 29579 times)
Scott_Limoges
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« on: January 28, 2007, 07:59:02 pm »

This is a deck I've worked on sporadically over the last year.  I brought it out early January for a local tournament and split for first with it - against many good players.  Jeff Greene just played it a Eric Eld's tournament with minor changes he made and also split for first with it.  It has only been played at two tournaments to my knowledge. 

This is my list:

// Lands
    4  Polluted Delta
    3  Underground Sea
    2  Volcanic Island
    2  Flooded Strand
    2  Island
    1  Tolarian Academy

// Spells
    4  Duress
    4  Force of Will
    2  Misdirection

    4  Brainstorm
    4  Merchant Scroll
    3  Gifts Ungiven
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
   
    1  Yawgmoth's Bargain
    1  Necropotence
   
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Time Walk
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Recoup
    1  Tendrils of Agony
    1  Chain of Vapor

    4  Dark Ritual
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Lotus Petal
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Lion's Eye Diamond
   

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Chain of Vapor
SB: 3  Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2  Pyroclasm
SB: 1  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1  Rebuild
SB: 4  Pithing Needle
SB: 1  Fire/Ice
SB: 2  Empty the Warrens

You can read my tournament report here  http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31777.0

This is Jeff Greene's version:

1st/2nd Split Jeff Greene with Ritual Gifts

3 Gifts Ungiven
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Rebuild
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Recoup

Sideboard
2 Trickbind
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Empty the Warrens
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Energy Flux
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
Pyroclasm


I hope Jeff writes a tournament report.

The changes Jeff made from my list were:  -necro, -chain of vapor and -fetchland +rebuild +basic island. 

I highly recommend keeping necropotence in - its sick.

As your aware, the list is a MDG's shell minus Mana Drain's, kill conditions, and loose change.  The deck grips Duress's, Rituals, Enchantments, and a LED.

I received lots of PM's and taking it to a thread is the right call.

Anyone have suggestions for my list?  Any comments on choices in the MD or SB?  Interaction or decision-making situations? Brief matchup analysis questions or theory?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2007, 05:38:53 pm by Scott_Limoges » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2007, 08:40:23 pm »

Why are Duress and Rituals better than Drains?

Why would I play this over Pitch Long or TPS?
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« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2007, 08:50:17 pm »

Well... This deck isnt as explosive as Pitch Long, but it certainly is more stable. This deck can dedicate everything to disruption and set-up, as it only needs 1 Gifts to resolve in order to win. This deck is certainly very fast, and it can keep other decks from doing what they need to do at the same time. 

Duresses are better in this kind of deck because it provides you with information, meanwhile Dark Rits help you combo off right after that. I have played this deck for a certain amount of time, and I like it more than Pitch Long personally, but against a Drain deck, it can be quite swingy depending on what your playing against. Meandeck Gifts is pretty much 50/50 imo.

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« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2007, 10:36:36 pm »

Why are Duress and Rituals better than Drains?

Why would I play this over Pitch Long or TPS?

1) The function of Gifts in this deck is a little different than Gifts in a traditional MDG shell. When playing Scott, he'll often topdeck a scroll/Gifts and just win on  the spot. This deck doesn't want to play control. It simply wants to win by protecting it's Gifts, making duress a better card than drain. This deck wants to maximize it's mana, and drain doesn't let you do this.

Also, with Extripate in the format, I'll take duress over drain.

2) This is the convergence of Long and Gifts. People have been taking gifts and CS in the same direction, Scott is doing something similar, with great effects. To give you a short answer, this deck pushes the card Gifts Ungiven towards combo while keeping the variance of MDG. I feel this is one of the best decks in the format, but don't take my word for it, give it run yourself.
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« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2007, 12:06:52 am »

Jeff Greene's list is missing 5 cards - most likely 4 Merchant Scroll, 1 Lotus Petal
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2007, 03:16:11 am »

Ive been playing a similiar list to this which i playtested with since around april -05, the decklist is somewhere in a tourney report here.

I would suggest for you to cut red from the deck acctually, im not 100% about the meta in us but assuming you have to fight off wastelands in the same degree as here you really dont want to see a volcanic island on your starting hand nor usually fetch one on your first 2-3 rounds. And since decided to go on rituals instead of the drains for mana boost you really want 1-3 basic swamps to fetch so you dont have to rely on the very waste attracting UG seas. The only thing for running red preboard is basiclly recoup for the will, BUT you can still pile up for a will 9 outta 10 times with gifts considering either you have willl, demonic, vampiric or mystical on hand to fetch will. OR you can do the gifts pile for myst, vamp, dem and lotus to still get to rock the will. Ahh right, and try some other bounce besides Chain of vapor since Chalice for 1 already cuts of 17 cards in the deck and to add another card that mix isnt a good idea since you basiclly cant win through a chalice for 1 as the deck looks right now.

So try cutting out red just to really get a rock solid mana base and after a few games i dont think you will miss that maindeck recoup and the cards in the sideboard have other alternatives that can do what you need them to do game 2-3 anyway.
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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2007, 08:27:29 am »

Nice deck.
I think that Extirpate could change our attitude toward the *right number* of winners.

While 1ToA is the best way not to have it Extirped out because you would not have it in your hand/graveyard so often, I think that you should play with a *savatage button* for those game's situations where you got catched by this curse.

IMHO, 1 ToA plus 1 B.Wish, while slower, should be the correct way to approach this problem.
Post side, you can add EtW o ToA#2 if needed.




@Protections Issue.
Isn't chain of vapor a *narrow* way to deal with CotVs when your real problem are the latter at 1?
You can easily tutor for a solution ( 5 2cc tutors and 3 Gifts ), but if that solution is blocked by CotV, I don't see how optimize the entire deck.

this deck has 18 1cc spells. a ot of them are KEY for the winning setup.
I think that Rebuild/R.River would be FAR BETTER is you are convinced on playing ONLY a single maindeck solution to opponents' threats. ( don't get me wrong. I would play BOTH of them. If but have space problems, I would opt for a 3cc solution ).
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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2007, 03:44:11 pm »

There should be an ETW in the MD, it saves time to Gifts/tutor for ETW and cast it instead of tutoring for bounce against Believer or Mage, and it avoids all of the Extirpates the n00bs are running. The 2 Misdirections should go for a second kill condition and bounce spell, Chain can't remove Chalice@1, so Hurkyl's seems necessary.
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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2007, 06:09:33 pm »

Ive been playing a similiar list to this which i playtested with since around april -05, the decklist is somewhere in a tourney report here.

I would suggest for you to cut red from the deck acctually, im not 100% about the meta in us but assuming you have to fight off wastelands in the same degree as here you really dont want to see a volcanic island on your starting hand nor usually fetch one on your first 2-3 rounds. And since decided to go on rituals instead of the drains for mana boost you really want 1-3 basic swamps to fetch so you dont have to rely on the very waste attracting UG seas. The only thing for running red preboard is basiclly recoup for the will, BUT you can still pile up for a will 9 outta 10 times with gifts considering either you have willl, demonic, vampiric or mystical on hand to fetch will. OR you can do the gifts pile for myst, vamp, dem and lotus to still get to rock the will. Ahh right, and try some other bounce besides Chain of vapor since Chalice for 1 already cuts of 17 cards in the deck and to add another card that mix isnt a good idea since you basiclly cant win through a chalice for 1 as the deck looks right now.

So try cutting out red just to really get a rock solid mana base and after a few games i dont think you will miss that maindeck recoup and the cards in the sideboard have other alternatives that can do what you need them to do game 2-3 anyway.

I include red for two reasons 1.) Adding a third color MD is barely noticable in terms opposing of disruption - I only fetch red the winning turn.  Cutting red really isn't an option when casting Gifts Ungiven is an autowin with red.  2.)  The sideboard runs 8 of the best red bullet card available - REBs, pyroclasms, Empty the Warrens, and fire/ice.

I've added another basic island after the tournament like Jeff Greene did - the base feels solid.  A basic swamp could also be added if Exirpate gets played.

Please post a link to your deck.

Nice deck.
I think that Extirpate could change our attitude toward the *right number* of winners.

While 1ToA is the best way not to have it Extirped out because you would not have it in your hand/graveyard so often, I think that you should play with a *savatage button* for those game's situations where you got catched by this curse.

IMHO, 1 ToA plus 1 B.Wish, while slower, should be the correct way to approach this problem.
Post side, you can add EtW o ToA#2 if needed.

@Protections Issue.
Isn't chain of vapor a *narrow* way to deal with CotVs when your real problem are the latter at 1?
You can easily tutor for a solution ( 5 2cc tutors and 3 Gifts ), but if that solution is blocked by CotV, I don't see how optimize the entire deck.

this deck has 18 1cc spells. a ot of them are KEY for the winning setup.
I think that Rebuild/R.River would be FAR BETTER is you are convinced on playing ONLY a single maindeck solution to opponents' threats. ( don't get me wrong. I would play BOTH of them. If but have space problems, I would opt for a 3cc solution ).


I'm not concerned about Extirpate removing the singleton win condition.  We only fetch Tendrils the turn we win, we tutor for it, and we've cast duress.  If anything, I'm concerned if Hide/Seek becomes popular; however, we can still misdirect, duress, and FOW it.  I agree Max, Buring Wish is the solution if we need another FTW.

I'm reluctant in adding another bounce main for three reasons   1.) Chalice 0 is the most common and better play.  Hitting primary mana sources stops the casting of business and our best acceleration - Lotus and LED.  If they play chalice 1 game 1, we can still maneuver because this is a tutor deck.  Demonic, Y.will, recoup, Lotus, LED...with either of these in hand and a gifts for the other shoulds win right there...no 1 mana spells.  Also don't forget the enchantments that disregard chalice 1. 2.) There are few relavent spells we care about game 1 and we run duress and FOW for them. 3.) The main is tight and focussed - adding another bounce delutes the business and effectiveness of the tutoring game plan.  And game 2 we have SB access.

Jeff - was rebuild necessary in your games?  A second bounce main was unnecessary in my matches.

Obviously in a stax heavy enviroment, adding hurkyl's is right.  I don't think debating mana costs 2 vs. 3 is relavent when 0 and 1 are better targets.  Cheaper is better in this deck and hurkyl's is probrably right.  I run both in the SB.

There should be an ETW in the MD, it saves time to Gifts/tutor for ETW and cast it instead of tutoring for bounce against Believer or Mage, and it avoids all of the Extirpates the n00bs are running. The 2 Misdirections should go for a second kill condition and bounce spell, Chain can't remove Chalice@1, so Hurkyl's seems necessary.

I like ETW against fish and stax but only marginally more than tendrils.  This is because storming 10 and creating mana is fairly easy with rituals, duress, and tutors - I rarely lose because I can't do both.  If we need another kill, buring wish is versitle - lets us find ETW, pyroclasm, or Y.will again.

Bob's comments explain misdirection nicely - "1) The function of Gifts in this deck is a little different than Gifts in a traditional MDG shell. When playing Scott, he'll often topdeck a scroll/Gifts and just win on  the spot. This deck doesn't want to play control. It simply wants to win by protecting it's Gifts, making duress a better card than drain. This deck wants to maximize it's mana, and drain doesn't let you do this."   ...Misdirection is comparable to duress.
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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2007, 07:11:17 pm »

Burning Wish is counterable, ETW is not; that difference has lost me so many games against Fish I can't even begin to elaborate on them. It's not a question of whether or not ETW is a better/worse kill condition than Tendrils, but that ETW allows you to disregard tutor->bounce against Believer/Mage as well as MD Hide/Seek. You should include a second kill condition and second bounce spell, it shores up weak points in the deck that Fish can easily exploit.

I understand the correlation between Duress and Misdirection, but the deck is missing important business and utility for the Misdirection slots, which is a mistake IMO. The deck already aggressively resolves Gifts during its own turn to Duress for FoW and out race Drain; it doesn't need Misdirection to resolve Gifts or protect Drain.
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« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2007, 08:07:03 pm »

Burning Wish is counterable, ETW is not; that difference has lost me so many games against Fish I can't even begin to elaborate on them. It's not a question of whether or not ETW is a better/worse kill condition than Tendrils, but that ETW allows you to disregard tutor->bounce against Believer/Mage as well as MD Hide/Seek. You should include a second kill condition and second bounce spell, it shores up weak points in the deck that Fish can easily exploit.

I understand the correlation between Duress and Misdirection, but the deck is missing important business and utility for the Misdirection slots, which is a mistake IMO. The deck already aggressively resolves Gifts during its own turn to Duress for FoW and out race Drain; it doesn't need Misdirection to resolve Gifts or protect Drain.

Empty the Warren definately hoses fish, thats why their in the SB.  They shine because their not reliant on gifts...scroll -> mystical -> ETW or can be drawn.  Against the other 70% of the field, their worse and can lose the game.  Unfortunately, this deck does not control passively over attacking turns -  its similar to comparing Pitch Long with ETW main.  Control, Combo, and Ichorid can exploit a 2 turn window and its arguable that if we can tutor chain against stax, we can win with tendrils.  Cutting Misdirections may further weaken the field majority matchups.

If fish comprises the metagame, adding a ETW is good.  However, most tournament breakdowns and top 8's consist of control and combo.

I would cut either a misdirection, as you suggested, or necro for ETW in a fish infested meta.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2007, 08:36:26 pm by Scott_Limoges » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2007, 11:10:39 pm »

I believe a deck built solely around ETW would be resilient and be way better than collossus. Though Ritual Gifts is not the place for that. I believe a drain based gifts deck can exploit ETW much better than Ritual Gifts. Lets face it, Ritual Gifts was made for tendrils, and ETW is a sideboard card in this particular deck.

But in a focused Drain Gifts build, ETW could be a really good Main win condition. It would be more forgiving than collossus, and be easier to protect. And also have the un-counterability of Tendrils. There would be some games of course that would be decided by tokens not having haste, but in those games it would be likely you would have lost anyways since storming to 10 requires usually a lot more set-up then ETW to pull off.

If you have a choice between burning wish and ETW maindeck I would have to choose ETW. You would have a better chance of winning games if you cast ETW instead of Burning Wish. If you have ETW maindecked then you wont need to grab pyroclasm or yawgmoths will, since ETW takes care of fish and you down need Yawgmoth's Will to set it up.
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« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2007, 11:57:20 pm »

I believe a deck built solely around ETW would be resilient and be way better than collossus. Though Ritual Gifts is not the place for that. I believe a drain based gifts deck can exploit ETW much better than Ritual Gifts. Lets face it, Ritual Gifts was made for tendrils, and ETW is a sideboard card in this particular deck.

Okay, I'm trying to follow the logic here, but I see none. You believe a deck built solely around ETW would be resilient, but I see no supposed list. R/G Beats with ETW? I see no reasons why it would be better in drain based gifts decks than ritual gifts decks? A drained spell for 1 doesn't do much good, other than there was a spell countered. It doesn't provide storm, and frankly, Duress is looking to be a better and better card to have these days with all the split second cards. On the other hand, a ritual provides 3 mana and storm for ETW. Seems like a good deal to me and facing it seems reasonable too.

But in a focused Drain Gifts build, ETW could be a really good Main win condition. It would be more forgiving than collossus, and be easier to protect. And also have the un-counterability of Tendrils. There would be some games of course that would be decided by tokens not having haste, but in those games it would be likely you would have lost anyways since storming to 10 requires usually a lot more set-up then ETW to pull off.

Isn't it already a good main win condition? Seems like it was one of the two main win conditions in Brassman's Gifts list that won at Waterbury. Going with the other points, Echoing Truth still is a decent bounce spell and will probably become more popular again, so ETW is only marginally better than the Collossus as the other bounce spells are less useful. Heh, I predict the savage tech of the Goblin Sharpshooter in sideboards now. As to haste, the Collossus never had haste either so it's no different from the tokens. Furthermore, unless I were storming out with Tendrils on the 1st or 2nd turn, I've rarely ever needed to get to 10 storm.

If you have a choice between burning wish and ETW maindeck I would have to choose ETW. You would have a better chance of winning games if you cast ETW instead of Burning Wish. If you have ETW maindecked then you wont need to grab pyroclasm or yawgmoths will, since ETW takes care of fish and you down need Yawgmoth's Will to set it up.

I tend to favour Burning Wish although in reality, I have to agree with ETW over it. It can be a back breaker for 3-4 storm on turn 1 or 2, while the Burning Wish is just mostly a dead, mana hungry card at that point.

It's a good option to test in the deck. I haven't done a lot of testing with the deck here, due to lack of test partners at the moment, but I'll try to run the gamut and let you know how it turns out.
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2007, 12:05:03 am »

I believe a deck built solely around ETW would be resilient and be way better than collossus. Though Ritual Gifts is not the place for that. I believe a drain based gifts deck can exploit ETW much better than Ritual Gifts. Lets face it, Ritual Gifts was made for tendrils, and ETW is a sideboard card in this particular deck.

Okay, I'm trying to follow the logic here, but I see none. You believe a deck built solely around ETW would be resilient, but I see no supposed list. R/G Beats with ETW? I see no reasons why it would be better in drain based gifts decks than ritual gifts decks? A drained spell for 1 doesn't do much good, other than there was a spell countered. It doesn't provide storm, and frankly, Duress is looking to be a better and better card to have these days with all the split second cards. On the other hand, a ritual provides 3 mana and storm for ETW. Seems like a good deal to me and facing it seems reasonable too.

But in a focused Drain Gifts build, ETW could be a really good Main win condition. It would be more forgiving than collossus, and be easier to protect. And also have the un-counterability of Tendrils. There would be some games of course that would be decided by tokens not having haste, but in those games it would be likely you would have lost anyways since storming to 10 requires usually a lot more set-up then ETW to pull off.

Isn't it already a good main win condition? Seems like it was one of the two main win conditions in Brassman's Gifts list that won at Waterbury. Going with the other points, Echoing Truth still is a decent bounce spell and will probably become more popular again, so ETW is only marginally better than the Collossus as the other bounce spells are less useful. Heh, I predict the savage tech of the Goblin Sharpshooter in sideboards now. As to haste, the Collossus never had haste either so it's no different from the tokens. Furthermore, unless I were storming out with Tendrils on the 1st or 2nd turn, I've rarely ever needed to get to 10 storm.

If you have a choice between burning wish and ETW maindeck I would have to choose ETW. You would have a better chance of winning games if you cast ETW instead of Burning Wish. If you have ETW maindecked then you wont need to grab pyroclasm or yawgmoths will, since ETW takes care of fish and you down need Yawgmoth's Will to set it up.

I tend to favour Burning Wish although in reality, I have to agree with ETW over it. It can be a back breaker for 3-4 storm on turn 1 or 2, while the Burning Wish is just mostly a dead, mana hungry card at that point.

It's a good option to test in the deck. I haven't done a lot of testing with the deck here, due to lack of test partners at the moment, but I'll try to run the gamut and let you know how it turns out.

I think in the context of this thread, he was refering to a Gift's Varient with Drains.  Drains help defend passively for the few turns needed to win with ETW, while duress does not.  I believe he was referring to tendrils with "haste" instead of DSC.  I just wanted to clear up confusion.

EDIT - I really like what Peter (Diceman) said about Exterpate - "Good players generally avoid cards that are too random or unpredictable - they make your deck less consistent. Every card has some degree of randomness associated with it...and some cross the line"  Is this concept appropriate in comparing Ritual Gifts with Grim Long or Pitch Long - merchant scrolls and gifts ungiven to draw 7's and ritual tutors?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2007, 12:22:55 am by Scott_Limoges » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2007, 12:16:20 am »

I think in the context of this thread, he was refering to a Gift's Varient with Drains.  Drains help defend passively for the few turns needed to win with ETW, while duress does not.  I believe he was referring to tendrils with "haste" instead of DSC.  I just wanted to clear up confusion.

True story. Maybe I was a bit "hasty" in reading that part.  :lol:

While I love my drains, I think that Duress is just as strong right now in protecting ETW. You get the information from his hand to plan your game, and force them to topdeck for answers. And it's not like you don't run 4 Force of Wills and 2 Misdirections either.

Perhaps that's just because I've been seeing Trickbinds after the board around here. People seem to be loving their Interrupts.
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« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2007, 04:58:28 pm »

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in here.  Scott knows the deck 100% better then I do so I'm not going to try and address any points. 
Cutting necro was a bad choice.  I can't deal with 61 card decks and which goldfishing, which was all I had a chance to do with this deck, Necro seemed out of place.  After running through the 7 rounds that I actually played in I understand the deck much better and would never cut it. 

The rebuild was my only piece of bounce in my games.  I don’t like chain cause it gets hit by chalice and only does 1 thing.  I would much rather take care of all the stax lock pieces then just 1. 

Running 1 kill condition main deck really only hurt me once, and that was due to a play mistake.  There is enough disruption that when i'm going off, I know that it is for the win.  A burning wish could be used though.  I wouldn’t run empty main just because I think the tendrils is enough and the wish would end up getting utility such as therapy, stupor, bounce etc most of the time. 

I really need some more time with the deck to give any useful analysis, but I will say it seemed more powerful then any gifts list i've played before. 

@ Scott:  Have you tried 3x dark rit and 1x cabal or even 4 and 1?  Seems good if your lotus is already in the grave.
Oh and thanks for the list
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« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2007, 05:09:35 pm »

This deck gets shut down by Tormod's Crypt Turn 1.
Imo Rebuild is really needed.
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« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2007, 07:09:20 pm »


I really need some more time with the deck to give any useful analysis, but I will say it seemed more powerful then any gifts list i've played before. 

@ Scott:  Have you tried 3x dark rit and 1x cabal or even 4 and 1?  Seems good if your lotus is already in the grave.
Oh and thanks for the list

I haven't tested cabal ritual but cutting business or D. rituals seem worse.  Most times when I draw lotus and resolved gifts, I've won.  Work-arounds could be gifting for Y.Will, demonic, vampiric, ritual, which usually nets a Y. bargin.

This deck gets shut down by Tormod's Crypt Turn 1.
Imo Rebuild is really needed.


Your right, crypt was originally a problem. I solved that.

The solution is pithing needle.  Another out are the enchantments - that don't rely on Y.Will.  If I resolve a gifts with crypt in play, I get: Needle, gifts, Vampiric, Demonic.  This assures me of stoping crypt with a gifts or finding bargin.  Drawing into needle is also plausable considering there are 4.
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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2007, 01:51:48 pm »

   Pithing Needle doesn't seem too hot as after board if they are playing chalice they will definately cast it on 1. As previously posted chalice at 1 really screws this deck up, this deck needs hurkyls recall. Unlike pithing needle it is blue, doesn't cost 1, good proactive/reactive, and can be tutored for easily. Same goes for rebuild.
   Some play testing I've done that has treated me well is no CoV, 3 D. Rituals, 1 C. Ritual, 1 Hurkyl's Recall. Other than Chalice at 1, it would seem like a good idea. I kinda want to put in TfK's if I am playing 4 needles also  Sad
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« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2007, 02:22:55 pm »

The deck needs Chain of Vapor AND Hurkyl's Recall, with out Chain of Vapor, the deck can't remove disruption like Meddling Mage and True Believer or In the Eye of Chaos and Choke, as well as threats like Darksteel Colossus or Worldgorger Dragon. I also think the SB should consider additional Hurkyl's Recall, reminiscent of the Grimlong SBs, for Stax, where Duress is terrible.

You can get away with only one kill condition, but only one bounce spell will bite you in the ass.
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« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2007, 03:19:04 pm »

   Pithing Needle doesn't seem too hot as after board if they are playing chalice they will definately cast it on 1. As previously posted chalice at 1 really screws this deck up, this deck needs hurkyls recall. Unlike pithing needle it is blue, doesn't cost 1, good proactive/reactive, and can be tutored for easily. Same goes for rebuild.
   Some play testing I've done that has treated me well is no CoV, 3 D. Rituals, 1 C. Ritual, 1 Hurkyl's Recall. Other than Chalice at 1, it would seem like a good idea. I kinda want to put in TfK's if I am playing 4 needles also  Sad

Chalice for 0 is even worse for the combo player and this is what a good opposing player should do.  Besides, if you look at the sideboard, there is 1 Chain, 1 Hurkyl's, and 1 Rebuild.  Giving you tons of options to an opposing Chalice. 

The deck needs Chain of Vapor AND Hurkyl's Recall, with out Chain of Vapor, the deck can't remove disruption like Meddling Mage and True Believer or In the Eye of Chaos and Choke, as well as threats like Darksteel Colossus or Worldgorger Dragon. I also think the SB should consider additional Hurkyl's Recall, reminiscent of the Grimlong SBs, for Stax, where Duress is terrible.

You can get away with only one kill condition, but only one bounce spell will bite you in the ass.

In all honesty, Fish isn't as big of a threat to Gifts as it once was.  For starters, this deck is a lot faster and more proactive.  So, it's much easier to pull off the win before a threat worth worrying too much about comes down.  Meddling Mage isn't nearly as effective against this deck as it can be against most traditional MDG builds.  This deck has Necro and Bargain as outs to Meddling Mage naming Gifts or even YWill.

I think you are right about sideboarding.  That is, if Stax becomes big again.  Stax isn't that big anymore and if it was, I'm sure a maindeck Rebuild or Hurkyl's would be the correct choice(because you essentially have 5 of them, with Merchant Scrolls).

Honestly, I don't see any of those situations arising all that much, so I don't think the maindeck should run too many dead answers.  The sideboard has Empty the Warrens for Fish and 3 different bounce spells for Stax, if it shows up.

-DShell

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« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2007, 03:29:29 pm »

Meddling Mage naming Tendrils game 1 is game over unless you run Chain. True Believer is the same. There should be at least one maindeck bounce spell that can target these two creatures.

MaxxMatt suggested Rushing River as a possible bounce spell if the singleton bounce spell maindeck is the route we would like to choose. I am looking forward to testing it, but any preliminary thoughts about this beforehand?
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« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2007, 04:00:52 pm »

This deck seems strictly worse than I.T. It's not as fast, has a more vulnerable mana base (both to Chalice and Null Rod as well as to Wasteland), and doesn't have as many main-deck bounce spells. It does have Misdirection, which I.T. doesn't have, but that card's irrelevant against most things. Does it have better matchups than I.T. that I've missed?
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« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2007, 05:11:41 pm »

This deck seems strictly worse than I.T. It's not as fast, has a more vulnerable mana base (both to Chalice and Null Rod as well as to Wasteland), and doesn't have as many main-deck bounce spells. It does have Misdirection, which I.T. doesn't have, but that card's irrelevant against most things. Does it have better matchups than I.T. that I've missed?

This deck has a stronger drain matchup than IT, but at the expense of fish and stax. I'm guessing that this deck can sometimes power through fish's mana denial plan better than other gifts decks with the addition of ritual to set up huge turns.
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« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2007, 05:27:41 pm »

If the deck's as slow as my goldfishes have typically shown me, then I would think that this version of Gifts would have a worse combo matchup than I.T., and adding Red doesn't really do as much post-board as having Black already does.

And maybe it's just because I've been playing the combo vs. drain matchup for years, but I don't really know if trading 3 matchups for a little help in a matchup that's already 50/50 or slightly in combo's favor is a good idea.
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« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2007, 07:03:10 pm »

If the deck's as slow as my goldfishes have typically shown me, then I would think that this version of Gifts would have a worse combo matchup than I.T., and adding Red doesn't really do as much post-board as having Black already does.

And maybe it's just because I've been playing the combo vs. drain matchup for years, but I don't really know if trading 3 matchups for a little help in a matchup that's already 50/50 or slightly in combo's favor is a good idea.

I've encounted few problematic matchups in testing and neither are combo or stax.  It seems to have a great game against combo with duress, FOW, and merchant scroll -> FOW.  Against uba stax, there are few relavent lock pieces that matter that can't be bounced or countered with 4 scrolls.  I haven't really tested against 5c Stax.

However, Fish is the worst matchup and I'm not sure how to address it without altering the main with "dead" cards or if it even needs to be addressed.  As Zarathustra and Eric said, we have to rely on powering out the enchantments.
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« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2007, 08:50:36 pm »

Fish is another example where wish is usefull cause it grabs pryo or even massacer.  Trying to fit one in right be the right idea.  Still, im already having trouble with getting the deck down to 60 cards as it is.  So game 1 against fish might just have to take the hit. 
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« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2007, 09:38:31 pm »

In my experience wish had been completely terrible. The utility box it gives doesn't really add anything to your gameplan. When you're trying to win, winning is more important than just having answers to everything. Chain of vapor and hurkyl's should be more than enough to answer any problem you have.
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« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2007, 09:07:45 am »

I've encounted few problematic matchups in testing and neither are combo or stax.  It seems to have a great game against combo with duress, FOW, and merchant scroll -> FOW.  Against uba stax, there are few relavent lock pieces that matter that can't be bounced or countered with 4 scrolls.  I haven't really tested against 5c Stax.

However, Fish is the worst matchup and I'm not sure how to address it without altering the main with "dead" cards or if it even needs to be addressed.  As Zarathustra and Eric said, we have to rely on powering out the enchantments.

Hmm.  Your claim of stax not being a problematic matchup would be much more believable if you didn't go on to say that you haven't tested stax.

The thing with Ritual Gifts, in my testing, is that you're more likely to fetch out vulnerable non-basics against an unknown enemy who turns out to be playing Fish or Stax.  This is when Wastes and their lockdown/denial kick you in the stones.

Nowadays, when I build a deck and I want to put Rituals and Gifts in there, I ask myself  "Self, why am I putting these expensive Gifts setup cards when I can just ritual-Grim tutor and play Pitch Long.  That deck is real bomby too and the set up cards aren't 4cc.  Basically, I come to the same conclusions that Phillip did.  "Why play this over PL?"

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« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2007, 11:17:19 am »

Quote
Why play this over PL

My answer to this is sort of a difficult idea to articulate, but I'm going to give it a shot:

When looking at T1 decks that kill with tendrils (the majority of the field in most tournaments I attend) there's sort of a sliding scale where decks trade off between raw power and resiliency to disruption.  Some of these transactions look like-

basics vs. multi-colored bombs
lands vs. 0 & 1 cc mana accelerants
bounce/solution vs. cards that build momentum (cantrips, tutors, etc)

In all of these decks the strategy is essentially the same, to create a game state where you can ignore your opponent for one turn and cast 9 spells followed by tendrils.  The game theoretic here (when picking a deck to play) is devising how much you want to push that game state towards turn 1.  This decision is contingent on two metagame factors, first, what type of disruption do you expect to face, and second, how fast will your other opponents be pushing their game state.

Finally getting to my point, the reason why Scott's deck fills a niche, is that it has the following attributes compared with the alternatives: PL, MDG.  (Notice, there's not much new in Scott's build, it's his choice of hybrid strategies that make it viable.)

Compared with PL,
1) Scroll is a more effecient tutor (than grim) for finding answers and setting up its engine
2) A resolved Gifts against control can find multiple and specific threats compared with necro, contract, twister, jar, etc.
3) Duress is proactive, less resource intensive, and taylored to hit split second cards.

Compared with MDG,
1) Ritual & LED allow more explosive plays earlier in the game
2) Duress again is proactive, and gives important game information to adjust your strategy in the 'control' mirror
3) Necro is an additional bomb

Obviously this is entirely dependent on metagame, but there are certainly cases where this deck can be a superior choice.
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