Elder Bear

[Tenebrozo]

Elder Bear
1G
When [this] comes into play, draw a card.
2/2
Flavor text here

I realize that this is above the normal power curve for a bear, but I don't feel it would be dangerous. It is an interesting limited common, one of those cards that help you when you are in green but at the same time doesn't look like a first pick. As for constructed, I don't have much experience in deck building, but I doubt it would cause problems. Thoughts?

Current wording:

Elder Bear
1G
When [this] is put into a graveyard from play, draw a card.
2/2
Flavor text here

[Guevara59]

I really like this card.  It helps with some stompy decks and their lack of card draw.  you may want it to be GG  b/c it could be a little too powerful in decks that run more than 1 cc.  The gg will limit that.

[Anusien]

This is strictly better than Striped Bears.  While Striped Bears are probably overcosted, do you really think you can drop it this much?  After all, cnatripping seems to add and a 2/2 is generally about 0.5C; I think 1G is very aggressively costing.  I'd be much happier with 2G.

[Tenebrozo]

At 2G it loses the "cantripping bear" feeling and becomes a "cantripping grey ogre". I can change it to 2G, but do you really think it is overpowered at 1G?

[Pizzatog]

I think the cost is a bit low, but not too much. Consider Wall of Blossoms. I would add another drawback so it keeps its bear status.

Maybe instead of simply drawing a card:

At the begining of your next upkeep, draw a card?  When Elder bear is put into a graveyard from play draw a card? Kicker (1) Draw a card if you pay the kicker?

[Harlequin]

Yeah, the first card I thought of comparing this to was also wall of Blossoms.

Maybe make the draw conditional?

When ~ comes into play, reveal the top card of your library.  If it is a green card or basic forest draw a card.

[jro]

I think this is just flat out too good in limited.  I can't prove that it would, but I think this card would just be nuts.  2/2s for 2 are solid in limited even with pretty marginal abilities.  The idea that you could be on the play, attack into an opponents turn 3 morph / Grey-ogre-with-ability, and just let the trade happen without losing card advantage seems really wrong.  Not to mention that a late game one of these just lets you draw the next card and play that as well.  And since this is only 2 mana, it can help smooth out your early game land drops.  It's not like any one of those things is game breaking, but the fact that it does all of them seems really wrong.

If you want to keep it as 1G 2/2, I think the ability could be changed to "When this is put into a graveyard from play, draw a card," and that would probably be fair.

[Tenebrozo]

I have no problem changing it to a leaves play trigger instead of a comes into play, any issues with that version?

[Anusien]

I'm still skeptical.  Here are all the cards with CMC =2, power = 2, and the words "Draw a card" on them:
Note that one of them is cycling, so the other relevant match:

Multani's Acolyte {GG} |Creature -- Elf| 2/1. Echo GG (At the beginning of your upkeep, if this came under your control since the beginning of your last upkeep, sacrifice it unless you pay its echo cost.) / When Multani's Acolyte comes into play, draw a card.

I've looked at all the creatuers with CMC=3, power=2 and the words "Draw a card" on them that wasn't cycling:
(1) Brass Secretary (2) Carven Caryatid (3) Chambered Nautilus (4) Dimir Cutpurse (5) Golgari Brownscale (6) Marker Beetles (7) Merfolk Seer (8) Mnemonic Sliver (9) Opaline Sliver (10) Phyrexian Rager (11) Ragamuffyn (12) Soldevi Heretic (13) Wirewood Savage (14) Yavimaya Elder

Oh those, most were either a conditional draw (becomes blocked, or deals combat damage to an opponent), or a cost to sacrifice and draw the card.  I think the cheapest I'll be happy is 1GG for a 2/2.  Sorta makes sense, considering we started with 3G, and 2=C, so 3G=1GG.  In other words, Striped Bear is costed fairly.

[jro]

I'm still skeptical. [snip] In other words, Striped Bear is costed fairly.

If this were a pure cantrip, I think it would make sense to consider Trinket Mage and Civic Wayfinder as comparable cards, which might allow a cost of 2G.  But a more direct comparison to the "gravetripping" version would be Aven Fisher / Kingfisher, Surveilling Sprite, or Floating Dream Zubera.  The latter two seem fairly costed in comparison to this.  I don't think this card could be a base set staple, but I do think it could have a place somewhere in an expansion.

[Anusien]

So for your comparison you offer:
2 3 mana 2/2s with limited tutoring.
Two 4 mana 2/2 fliers.  Flying is generally costed at about , sometimes a little more or less.  In other words, those would be 3 mana creatures without flying, but remember that blue is better at card draw than green.
A 1/1 flier (the extra point of power is worth at least ) and a 1/2 with a potentially powerful ability.

In other words, your analysis is valid, but none of it supports the 1C claim, and only weakly supports the 2C claim

[jro]

So for your comparison you offer:
2 3 mana 2/2s with limited tutoring.
Two 4 mana 2/2 fliers.  Flying is generally costed at about , sometimes a little more or less.  In other words, those would be 3 mana creatures without flying, but remember that blue is better at card draw than green.
A 1/1 flier (the extra point of power is worth at least ) and a 1/2 with a potentially powerful ability.

In other words, your analysis is valid, but none of it supports the 1C claim, and only weakly supports the 2C claim

How does it not support the 1C claim?  Surely blue's "weak creatures" clause combined with the open-ended potential of the Zubera's ability compensates for the extra point of power?  As for the 1C 1/1 flyer vs. 2/2, after reviewing the relevant creatures, it seems to me that green gets 1G 2/2s with abilities that are on par with the abilities given to 1U 1/1 flyers.

As for the 2C claim, I think it's pretty clearly the case that there are many 2/2s for 2C that provide conditional card advantage (like Viridian Shaman).  Moreover, there are cards that allow you to get a card from your library for 2C.  So 2C seems at least plausible.  The strongest knock against that would be Merchant of Secrets, but Merchant of Secrets is pretty much unplayable, even in draft.

And I object to the idea that blue is superior to green in card drawing ability when it comes attached to creatures.  While drawing a card when ~this~ dies has so far appeared only on blue creatures, green has Fecundity.  And I think it's clear that R&D has been pushing creature related card draw in green recently.

[Anusien]

The Zubera's ability is at least as good as the leaves play, draw a card.  Even if I give you that Green's 1G 2/2s are on par with blue's 1U 1/1 flyers, Floating-Dream Zubera doesn't fly.  A 2/2 for 1G with the cantrip would be extremely high on the power curve, especially considering you're obviating a 4 mana creature with a 2 mana creature.  I don't think you're going to be able to support the 1G intrepretation of the card.

Regarding 2G, I don't think you can call 187ing an artifact equivalent to drawing a card.  You can't just wave off the examples I gave you; there are no 2/x for 2C that give just a flat out card draw without a cost, either on the leaves play side or the comes into play side.  As far as I can tell, you either have to make it a more conditional card draw (like adding a cost or an extra condition) for 2G, a 1/2 for 2G, a 2/2 for 1GG, or a 2/3 for 3G.

[jro]

The Zubera's ability is at least as good as the leaves play, draw a card.  Even if I give you that Green's 1G 2/2s are on par with blue's 1U 1/1 flyers, Floating-Dream Zubera doesn't fly.  A 2/2 for 1G with the cantrip would be extremely high on the power curve, especially considering you're obviating a 4 mana creature with a 2 mana creature.  I don't think you're going to be able to support the 1G intrepretation of the card.

I think maybe there's some confusion here.  I'm not suggesting that a true cantripping version be 1G, replacing the 3G Striped Bear.  1G is for the version with "When this goes to the yard, draw a card."

Regarding 2G, I don't think you can call 187ing an artifact equivalent to drawing a card.  You can't just wave off the examples I gave you; there are no 2/x for 2C that give just a flat out card draw without a cost, either on the leaves play side or the comes into play side.  As far as I can tell, you either have to make it a more conditional card draw (like adding a cost or an extra condition) for 2G, a 1/2 for 2G, a 2/2 for 1GG, or a 2/3 for 3G.

I think you're probably right that 1GG would be better.  I also think you're right that if the draw were conditional on a 2C, that it might be okay.  (Civic Wayfinder and Trinket Mage are basically conditional draws, but the condition is on what you can draw, not whether or not you get to draw.)  I was more trying to say that I don't think that 2G is impossible, not that it's necessarily correct.

And a final note: why do people keep using obviate like that?  Talen Lee just did it on SCG.  To obviate means to prevent by anticipation, not to make irrelevant or replace something that already exists.

[Anusien]

According to WordNet (source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/obviate), using obviate as removing/doing away with is not incorrect, just less precise.  Still, I had to dig to get that definition.

I don't know how to price a deathtrip (portmaneau of death + cantrip) as well as I do a true cantrip; you can probably put it at 2G but I don't know if we NEED to push casting costs that much.  In other words, real sets have cards slightly above and slightly behind the casting curve.  We're always either on it or just ahead of it.  In other words, we need solid but unspectacular cards, and this is a good candidate.

[jro]

According to WordNet (source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/obviate), using obviate as removing/doing away with is not incorrect, just less precise.  Still, I had to dig to get that definition.[/url]

There's one entry from Word Net that says "do away with" vs. every other entry from every other dictionary that indicates it's anticipatory.  Anyway, the better verb to use there is "to obsolete" which is a transitive verb meaning "to make obsolete".  I think people (myself included) don't like to say "A obsoletes B" because we're always using obsolete as an adjective, so it sounds wrong.

I don't know how to price a deathtrip (portmaneau of death + cantrip) as well as I do a true cantrip; you can probably put it at 2G but I don't know if we NEED to push casting costs that much.  In other words, real sets have cards slightly above and slightly behind the casting curve.  We're always either on it or just ahead of it.  In other words, we need solid but unspectacular cards, and this is a good candidate.

Based on the other cards that do it, I'd guess that a deathtrip would be worth about 0.75.  (2/2 flier = 2U, 1/2 blue guy = (.5)U, 1/1 blue flier = (.25)U) That would put the present version at either 2G or 1G.  (I figure the true cost of a green Bear is something like (.75)G).  I think putting this at 1G would require the right kind of environment (that's why I wouldn't put it in the base set), but I think it's doable.  I wouldn't put it at 2G because I think it becomes totally unexciting at that point.  I'd be okay with GG I guess, but it's not my card.

[Tenebrozo]

At GG it loses the "bear" status. I agree that at 2G it becomes so unexciting that it isn't worth it; I really don't see a problem with it at 1G. Consider this: a 2/1 or 2/2 is standard fare for CC 2 in every color. Green should have the best creatures, and one way to push them is to make the combat trades more attractive.

As a note, this is from a limited perspective; as I stated before, I doubt that this would have any impact in constructed.

[parallax]

Actually, this card is still pretty exciting at 2G. Counsel of the Soratami is a solid Limited card.

I think the most comparable cards to this are Eternal Witness, Civic Wayfinder, and Trinket Mage. This suggests a cost of , given that Regrowth is a stronger effect than cantrip, but search for a land is about equivalent.

The leaves-play ability at seems strong, but it is defensible. It feels too strong to me, but I'm having a hard time judging it.

[Nydaeli]

It loses some of the elegance, but you could give it "Whenever ~ is put into a graveyard from play, you may pay  .  If you do, draw a card."  That feels balanced, if a little boring.

[andrewpate]

Think about this:  Civic Wayfinder suggests that a comes-into-play Rampant Growth costs about half of a colorless mana, rounded up.  Solemn Simulacrum is a 2/2 artifact creature, which costs about 2.5 mana, also rounded up.  If you add its Rampant Growth, it should cost .  Since artifacts pay a premium for card draw just like they do for most other things, this means that a leaves-play card draw should cost a bit less than 1 colorless mana.  Therefore, would be powerful but acceptable and would be a bit underpowered but not overly so.  So the question is just whether or not this card is supposed to fill one of the set's "push" slots.

[zimagic]

At GG it loses the "bear" status. I agree that at 2G it becomes so unexciting that it isn't worth it; I really don't see a problem with it at 1G. Consider this: a 2/1 or 2/2 is standard fare for CC 2 in every color. Green should have the best creatures, and one way to push them is to make the combat trades more attractive.

As a note, this is from a limited perspective; as I stated before, I doubt that this would have any impact in constructed.

I'd think it would be a very challenging limited card. Do you bump up it's toughness to survive combat or do you let it die to net a card? Obviously a step up in quality for a bear. I'd happily keep it at 1G in Green given that most current mono-green decks seem to be skipping the 2cc slot at the moment anyway to ramp up to 3. I think for that reason alone it would get a look in in constructed. Your opponent has the option of giving you card advantage or damage early on with the prospect that letting a 2/2 through with GGG open is an invite to more than 2 damage.

[Anusien]

Think about this:  Civic Wayfinder suggests that a comes-into-play Rampant Growth costs about half of a colorless mana, rounded up.  Solemn Simulacrum is a 2/2 artifact creature, which costs about 2.5 mana, also rounded up.  If you add its Rampant Growth, it should cost .  Since artifacts pay a premium for card draw just like they do for most other things, this means that a leaves-play card draw should cost a bit less than 1 colorless mana.  Therefore, would be powerful but acceptable and would be a bit underpowered but not overly so.  So the question is just whether or not this card is supposed to fill one of the set's "push" slots.

Civic Wayfinder puts the card to hand, not to play tapped.  Your analysis is flawed.  In fact there are no 2 mana 2/2s; every 2/2 artifact is at least and oftee more.  Proteus Machine is a perfect example suggesting that 2/2s in colorless cost (morph is another very good example).  Also, it seems like Rampant Growth is much more than half a colorless mana to pay; standalone it will cost you at least 2 mana.  Solemn Simulacrum does a lot of things very well, but it's allowed to since it's a rare and an invitational card.  We're designing a common, which makes the requirements much stiffer.

[andrewpate]

I didn't say that a 2/2 costs , but rather it costs 2.5 rounded up.  I said this because every 2/2 for has a special ability, even Proteus Machine.  And Solemn Simulacrum's ability being strictly better than Civic Wayfinder's only contributes to the cheapness of a leaves-play card draw demonstrated by Solemn Simulacrum, meaning that the analysis is by no means flawed.

Your other point, namely that Solemn Simulacrum is actually undercosted, is a bit better.  MaRo has often held that rarity and Constructed power are completely independent (usually with an inset scan of Wild Mongrel somewhere nearby), but I think that most of us can acknowledge that shocklands are rares basically in order to sell booster packs.  Do others agree that the comparison to Solemn is unfair because of its power level having been ramped up by its status as a push rare (specfically vs. our potential push common)?

[Liam-K]

No one's mentioned Dark Confidant.  Possibly for good reason but no matter how you word this guy he's a lot worse.

Still I don't think 2G is wrong.  Bears are playable dorks that you don't get excited about.

[OfficeShredder]

I think dark confidant was just about covered here:

  Solemn Simulacrum does a lot of things very well, but it's allowed to since it's a rare and an invitational card.  We're designing a common, which makes the requirements much stiffer.

[TopSecret]

     How about:

     1G, 2/2, When [cardname] is put into a graveyard, draw 2 cards.

     Would that be too good in limited?
     Would it be possible to move it to uncommon?

   I think the flavor text should be something about honey, or picnic baskets.

[OfficeShredder]

That would be incredibly strong.  It would be an automatic 4x in every aggro deck in constructed (anti-wrath of god anyone?), and every limited deck would want it.

[Titanium Dragon]

A 1G for 2/2 is solid in limited. Adding drawing a card on it would make it a first pick and it would see a lot of constructed play. It is typical for a cantrip to add 2 to the cost of a spell. Striped Bears follow that rule. Now, mind you, Striped Bears suck. But a 2/2 for 1GG wouldn’t really suck. At 2G, its questionable on the other side. Civic Guildmage fetches out the worst card from your deck – a basic land. A full cantrip for the same cost seems a bit strange. Also, a 1/1 which does something slightly better than cantrip costs UG; a 2/2 for 1G which cantripped would be much stronger than Coiling Oracle, and Coiling Oracle is hardly a bad card.

If you were trying to push it, 2G might be acceptable, though it would be quite strong. But 1GG would be pretty solid in limited. At 2G, it would see constructed play; at 1GG, I dunno, but it might. It would be ubiquitous at 1G cantrip, beause its extremely powerful.

And as for Solemn Simulcrum - I think that it probably is undercosted, but it is Mirrodin block, where they randomly printed large numbers of undercosted creatures. Troll Ascetic, Eternal Witness, and Solemn Simulcrum are but a few examples. The Simulcrum would probably not have been underosted at 2UG, but at 4 colorless it is probably undercosted; the reason it doesn't cause too much trouble is that even though it is probably undercosted, it is still only a 2/2.

[jro]

What has happened to this thread?  We were getting somewhere, and then TopSecret suggests a laughably busted version of the card.  OfficeShredder then makes comments but doesn't identify which card he's critiquing (the busted draw 2 cards version or the version listed up top).  And now Titanium Dragon writes a perfectly well reasoned post that keeps talking about a cantripping version-- which unfortunately is not the current card text.

So, getting back on thread, does anyone have any further objections to or a different perspective on the current version (1G, 2/2, deathtrip)?  It seems like Anusien thinks it's undercosted, while myself, andrewpate, parallax and (presumably) Tenebrozo think it's strong but acceptable.

[zimagic]

What has happened to this thread?  We were getting somewhere, and then TopSecret suggests a laughably busted version of the card.  OfficeShredder then makes comments but doesn't identify which card he's critiquing (the busted draw 2 cards version or the version listed up top).  And now Titanium Dragon writes a perfectly well reasoned post that keeps talking about a cantripping version-- which unfortunately is not the current card text.

So, getting back on thread, does anyone have any further objections to or a different perspective on the current version (1G, 2/2, deathtrip)?  It seems like Anusien thinks it's undercosted, while myself, andrewpate, parallax and (presumably) Tenebrozo think it's strong but acceptable.

A 1G, blink-able card-drawing common bear doesn't seem a little too strong to you guys?

The "to graveyard" trigger was probably good enough at 1 card in the common slot. At "leaves play", being able to blink a card before you declare blockers and net a second off the Bear dying, bouncing or otherwising RFGing seems much strong especially if you trade creatures into the bargin.

If it's no longer a common, fine, let's go wild. But at common it needs to be a realistic limited card.