Is it time to unrestrict Library of Alexandria?

[Smmenen]

Getting Library of Alexandria active is still the most potent barometer of victory in a control mirror. 

What about Black Lotus, Ancestral Recal, Time Walk, and Yawg Will?  I feel those are by far more "potent" barameters of victory in the control mirror.

I feel that you people are seriously underrating the card.  For one thing, the switch to a harder to counter but slower Empty the Warrens clock (3 turns instead of 2) makes Library better, especially because it more easily helps fuel an Empty the Warrens; if you're holding back Moxen anyway to generate Storm...  Plus, most Gifts decks still make it a point to Merchant Scroll->Ancestral early.  You get at least that much advantage with Library, without the risk of getting Misdirected.

Over many turns.   The average Vintage game, in my experience, is about 4 turns now.   That's the problem with LoA.  On the draw thats +2 cards if you get a third turn and you are giving up mana each of those turns.

If your judge of whether Library is fair is whether most decks can deal with it (as some people have posted), you're looking at it wrong.  If it is a "deal with me or die!" card,

Most decks, including control decks, are much faster than LoA.   I don't think anything thinks "deal with me or die" when they see LoA.   Most decks probably laugh. 

Counterfactually, if I had just not used my Force of Will, I probably would have won. Next turn I could have used my Library and then Brainstormed back terrible cards for good cards. In the Brainstorm, I may have seen a Black mana that I could use to Duress the Yawgmoth's Will he's about to play (and does play on turn 5).

...

Admittedly, I could have just played it differently in three respects. I didn't have to use the Library like I did. I could have played it a little more aggressively. Second, I didn't have to play the Force of Will on the Force of Will on my Misdirection targeting Ancestral. I didn't think about what would happen if I got Pyroblasted. I just really wanted that Ancestral to resolve in my favor. Third, I suppose I could have responded with Brainstorm to put the crappy cards on top of my library. That play didn't occur to me simply because I thought my Misdirection was going to resolve. In any event, the real cost of using my pitch magic there was the fact that I had to lose my Brainstorm. That isn't always as costly as it was in that game, but with so many dead cards because I was cut off from Black mana, Brainstorm was more critical than ever.

So your analysis is because you misplayed using Library, Library is a bad card?  Hey, I'm going to just run out turn 1 Ancestral against Gifts and get it Misdirected.  Hey, this means Ancestral is bad now, right?

No, that's not my analysis.   I'm sorry that you didn't read my full post.   I was using what I admitted was an imperfect example to help illustrate my analysis.

My analysis is that library is, more so than any other vintage card, something that will appear better than it actually is.  This is because we never actually can go back and fully examine how a game would have played out without LoA.   Too many events have elapsed.

Consider this hypothetical hand:

LoA
Mox Emerald
Island
Brainstorm
Mechant Scroll
Force of Will
Mana Drain

Now, What do you do?   

You could play turn one LoA or you could play turn one Brainstorm or Scroll.    If you play Turn one loA and end up winning the game, it is virtually impossible to "rewind" the game and see what could have happened.   But what could have happened could have been an absolutely insane series of plays that resulted in a lopsided overwhelming early win that was made placcid and docile by LoA.   

I find it amusing that you're talking about whether or not Library is too slow in Drain mirrors, when you just cut Drain from Drain TPS.

I find it amusing that you apparently have trouble reading.

1) Drain TPS is a deck built by Codi Vince that looks like this:
4x Mana Drain   
4x Force of Will
                     
4x Accumulated Knowledge
4x Brainstorm
3x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Ancestral Recall
2x Intuition
1x Gush
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Frantic Search

2x Tendrils of Agony
1x Dark Ritual
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Time Walk
2x Rebuild
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Yawgmoth’s Will
1x Vampiric Tutor

4x Underground Sea
4x Island
3x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Sol Ring
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Lotus Petal
1x Library of Alexandria

I don't even play that deck.

2) I think, however, you are refering to MDG.  No, I didn't cut Drains from it.   I tested it without Drains in a testing session, but I never "cut" Drains from my Meandeck Gifts list.  As I said in the article, I was too timid to make that cut. 

3) Why do you find that amusing?

  The swap from Mana Drain to Duress makes Library of Alexandria better, not worse. 

Not if your opponent is using Duress as well.   

After all, Duress slows the game down (much more than Force, because you're proactive instead of reactive with it) making Library of Alexandria that much better.  And you can do some nutty things with the existing control core: turn 1 Library on the draw, draw and force something, draw a card then play land + mox and Merchant Scroll for your second counter.  You're just so far ahead of your opponent at that point you can't lose; you've gained all the advantages of Ancestral Recall except that you'll occasionally get to do it for the rest of the game.

You are assuming that the game goes more than 3-4 turns. 

That said: I predicted that Rich Shay, Andy Probasco, and yes, I should have included Peter in that group as well, would come to LoAs defense.  But I think beyond Peter and his circle (maybe Rich Mattuzzio might defend LoA) and team reflection and maybe a few other NEers, you won't find many people who think that LoA is that good.    The Drain decks are just too fast, even in the mirror.

Did we kill your puppy or something Steve? Does this really need to be said OVER AND OVER? Like just come right out and say whatever your implying about everyone on that little list, because you wouldn't be harping on it so much if there was no reason for it.

I honestly have no idea why your being so hostile.

There is no implication. 
I was simply mentioning the people who have time and again stated that they think LoA is a great card.

Rich Shay in his control slaver threads.    Andy always runs it in Gifts and so has Ben Kowal.   Peter has always ran LoA as well.   

I'm also pointing this out to make the point that there are only a few people who support it.   Probably half a dozen more vocal Vintage players and thats about it.   

[Anusien]

Doesn't your line of reasoning about the opportunity cost of Library of Alexandria apply to every card?  For example, if you run out the turn 1 Merchant Scroll for Ancestral and lose or win narrowly, you'll never know if Library would have won you the game more.  The same thing happens if that Library is Strip Mine, Boseiju or any number of cards.  In other words, the fact that Library of Alexandria has an opportunity cost is not necessarily a reason why it's bad.  Personally, I'm fine with paying the equivalent of over two turns to get the same card advantage as Ancestral Recall (+2) since you're normally paying for Merchant Scroll->Ancestral Recall in the process.  This does things like free up your Merchant Scrolls to get FoW; you're now essentially trading cards off the top of your deck for cards in their hand.  Seems good to me.

[The Atog Lord]

Library of Alexandria is broken. It is too good to unrestrict.

[Smmenen]

Doesn't your line of reasoning about the opportunity cost of Library of Alexandria apply to every card?  For example, if you run out the turn 1 Merchant Scroll for Ancestral and lose or win narrowly, you'll never know if Library would have won you the game more.  The same thing happens if that Library is Strip Mine, Boseiju or any number of cards.  In other words, the fact that Library of Alexandria has an opportunity cost is not necessarily a reason why it's bad.  Personally, I'm fine with paying the equivalent of over two turns to get the same card advantage as Ancestral Recall (+2) since you're normally paying for Merchant Scroll->Ancestral Recall in the process.  This does things like free up your Merchant Scrolls to get FoW; you're now essentially trading cards off the top of your deck for cards in their hand.  Seems good to me.

Of course it applies to every card.   That's why I was careful to explicate this argument in the first post.    I also used qualifying language that you didn't key into:

My analysis is that library is, more so than any other vintage card, something that will appear better than it actually is.

Also, I explained why this is the case in my big post:

 

It is very hard to isolate and identify opportunity costs with LoA because its investment is so deep early on...

[Moxlotus]

Can anybody tell me when LoA is so broken?

It sucks against Stax and combo of all sorts--would be much better as an island.  It can be good against aggro control, until they Duress or play Wasteland.  Is it just the Control mirror where people are clamoring that it is so broken?  Since when has it been a problem for a card to be unrestricted where it was absolutely amazing against 1 archetype?

[Smmenen]

Can anybody tell me when LoA is so broken?

It sucks against Stax and combo of all sorts--would be much better as an island.  It can be good against aggro control, until they Duress or play Wasteland.  Is it just the Control mirror where people are clamoring that it is so broken?  Since when has it been a problem for a card to be unrestricted where it was absolutely amazing against 1 archetype?

Moreoever, most Vintage cards are broken.  Brokeness isn't necessarily the touchstone for restriction.   Bazaar of Baghdad is absolutely broken.   Mishra's Workshop is a broken card.   I think both of those lands are more "broken" than Library of Alexandria. 

[oldbsturgeon]

just to let people know, it was mentioned
 how noone still played LoA, then this was
 posted on the SCG forums
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=vin&start_date=2006-11-12&end_date=2007-02-04&simple_card_name%5B1%5D=library+of+alexandria

[The Atog Lord]

Library of Alexandria is neither counterable nor subject to most forms of disruption. Rather, at the cost of a land drop, it serves to increase hand-size every turn for the remainder of the game. And then, should its function as card-draw-engine no longer be required, it is then transformed back again into a land. In this way, unlike most "investment" cards, it can be recouped at will.

The fact that some decks in Vintage are too fast for it does not mean that the card is unworthy of restriction. Not all Vintage decks use Time Twister, but that is safer on the Restricted List. In a similar way, while some modern Gifts decks are too fast to properly abuse the card, not only do Control Slaver decks find the card quite potent but moreover there will be new and powerful decks designed around the card.

Consider the example of Bazaar. It is not a card played in most mainstream decks; yet there are decks designed around its power. Library is a more powerful card than Bazaar -- and a deck designed to abuse it would be broken.

The most well-considered point I've thusfar read has been that of Peter. If the format should ever reach a point in which Library is too slow, then the format deserves to be slowed a bit.

[Moxlotus]

just to let people know, it was mentioned
 how noone still played LoA, then this was
 posted on the SCG forums
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=vin&start_date=2006-11-12&end_date=2007-02-04&simple_card_name%5B1%5D=library+of+alexandria

I don't believe anyone said it was never played.  I said it wasn't played by everyone that played control.  Shop is obviously broken--it is played as a 4 of in every prison deck.  LoA isn't even played as a 1 of in every control deck.

Besides, that list means nothing.  There are 81 control decks tha tplay Library.  That would mean nothing if there were 100 control decks that didn't play Library.  That would be the statistic that would be worth pulling up.  

Library is a more powerful card than Bazaar -- and a deck designed to abuse it would be broken.

I would love to see a 4 Library deck that wouldn't get pummeled by URBana fish or Long.  And if one could be built, why it doesn't get pummeled.  I would bet a lot that it wouldn't be because of Library.

EDIT:  It seems that those who are defending LoA are, as Steve predicted, the ones from the NE.  My point of LoA being nigh useless against decks that aren't Drains doesn't really affect those from the NE because, for some reason, those are the only decks played in the NE.  Yes, LoA can win control mirrors.  But does it win Stax matches?  Combo matches?  Fish matches?  Is it a big deal if a card is really really good against ONE archetype?  Workshop is good for stax against ALL archetypes.  Bazaar is good for Ichorid and Uba Stax against ALL archetypes.

[Demonic Attorney]

Wow.  In the grand scheme of all of my tournament performances, there are 3 cards that I can credit for singlehandedly winning me games.  Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, and Library of Alexandria.  The advantage that any of these three cards bestows has been insurmountable more often than not.  With respect to LoA, the ability to outdraw your opponent at a 2:1 ratio every turn should not need further defense as a game-deciding advantage.  If LoA were unrestricted, I think that the nature of the blue-based control mirror would fundamentally change, and the relationship of blue-based control to rest of the metagame would shift dramatically, as well.

With respect to the control mirror, there is no other card available to control decks that generates the long-term advantage that LoA does.  Of course, Steve notes that blue-based control decks have evolved such that their win conditions can end games within the first 3-4 turns.  True enough, but in my experience this doesn't happen in the majority of games.  First of all, most of the good blue based control players I know play conservatively and don't risk having to play the rest of the game at a 3-4 card disadvantage by going all-in on an early Tinker or Gifts against a deck equipped to stop those plays.  Second, as blue-based control evolves to become faster, it also relies on resources that are easier to cut off.  For example, Tormod's Crypt typically guarantees that an opposing Gifts deck will not even try to win for several more turns. 

While there are games in which someone draws the mana, business spells, and protection needed to ensure a very fast win, in my experience that is not the usual course of games.  Instead, blue-based control decks try to leverage protection spells to ensure their efficient win conditions can work unimpeded.  Library will help a blue-based control deck both in putting together their own win condition, as well as enable them to continue to throw disruption at an opponent. 

With respect to the rest of the metagame, there are indeed decks that are built to generate early wins.  There are several more that are built with a view towards consistency or disruption over speed.  These decks would be at a tremendous disadvantage against a Gifts or Slaver deck that could reliably open with LoA, and possibly even find multiples.  The metagame would be further distorted by speed or other strategies designed to deal with Library of Alexandria, and I think that trend would lead to a great number of decks simply being unable to keep up.  Winnowing the diversity in the metagame is rarely healthy for the format.  Forcing the metagame to distort itself around a card that has historically had a game-deciding impact on matchups is even worse.

Moreover, Library already carries a hefty pricetag when usable as a 1-of.  If it became possible to run 4, its price would almost certainly shoot through the roof, and optimal control lists would be made even more inaccessible to budget players who already have to allocate their proxies to Moxes, Lotus, Ancestral, Time Walk, and Mana Drains.  This represents another major change in the way Vintage is played that I believe would ensue if Library was unrestricted.  Honestly, I'm surprised people are even seriously entertaining this question.  As a singleton restricted card, Library ranks third behind what are commonly acknowledged as the two most powerful cards in the format in winning games for me on its own.  If available in multiples, it would mark a sea change in how I would play the game.

[The Atog Lord]

One further matter to address is that of the brevity of modern control matches. As Chris has rightly expressed, oftentimes when facing both Force of Will and Mana Drains, players do well to prepare an optimal hand before gambling on victory. To attempt to win and fail in a control mirror is in general to lose. This knowledge has in my experience lead to many control mirrors between good players taking many more than three turns. While such games can and do transpire, they tend to be the exception to the rule. As Chris said, Tormod's Crypt alone makes a third turn victory rather difficult.

What does this have to do with Library of Alexandria? Everything. When a control player sees Library across the table, he is put in a difficult spot. He is unlikely to be able to have the long-term card advantage generation of his opponent. The longer the game goes, the less likely he is -- to wait several more turns and enter a "draw-go" mode is to face being buried beneath a pile of card advantage. Therefore, even if not properly prepared, such a player often is forced to make a final gambit. He is forced  to "go off" before being ready. And this is often fatal in Control mirrors.

In this way, the mere thread of a Library can be very powerful in control mirrors.

[JACO]

Getting Library of Alexandria active is still the most potent barometer of victory in a control mirror. 

What about Black Lotus, Ancestral Recal, Time Walk, and Yawg Will?  I feel those are by far more "potent" barameters of victory in the control mirror.

Steve, STOP. Just please read this:

Here's how the game played out:
...Turn 3
On his upkeep I used my Library again, drawing Darksteel Colossus. Now I make a huge blunder. A blunder I've written about before. Take a look at the very last example in this article I wrote for MagicTheGathering.com:

The game state is almost precisely the same: I have Library and plenty of pitch magic, while my opponent has Petal and makes the following key play:
He plays Demonic Tutor for Ancestral Recall. Of course, I attempt to Misdirect the Ancestral. That makes sense and puts me down to six cards in hand. He Force of Wills my Misdirection. Here is where I got greedy. I Force of Will back, only to run into Pyroblast. He draws three cards and I'm left with a useless four card hand: Academy, Darksteel Colossus, Demonic Tutor, and Duress. I pitched the Brainstorm and Merchant Scroll [going down to 4 cards, and cutting you off from Library activation for the remainder of the game]to support the pitch magic. Now I'm stuck with useless cards, cut off from Black mana, and looking doomed.

Counterfactually, if I had just not used my Force of Will, I probably would have won. Next turn I could have used my Library...

In your own quote and article, you demonstrate how you probably would have won the game on the back of Library of Alexandria anyway, even after your opponent would have resolved Ancestral Recall. Does this not demonstrate, from your own game and article example, how powerful Library can often be, even in the face of Ancestral Recall, which you later cite as another barometer of victory in the control mirror?

I'm not from the northeast, am not on Team Reflection, and am not Canadian and once believed that Crucible of Worlds needed to be restricted. But I do think that unrestricting Library of Alexandria would be a very unwise move. Decks designed around the card, and perhaps including Stifle and/or Crucible of Worlds and/or Life From the Loam for protection would probably be ridonkulous. Aside from Wasteland, I don't understand the sentiment that they would have trouble competing with URBana Fish, which runs Dark Confidant and a bunch of irrelevant creatures that are hardly threats (as a brief aside, Darkblast kills every single creature in the deck except Nina of the Deep Hours, unless you are willing to do it twice in one turn, which is not out of the question). I would think that the time you would have against Fish decks not sporting fast clocks in the form of Jotun Grunt would be plenty to sculpt a strong enough hand to execute your game plan, whatever it might be.

As the Demonic Attorney said before I could make this exact point:

If LoA were unrestricted, I think that the nature of the blue-based control mirror would fundamentally change, and the relationship of blue-based control to rest of the metagame would shift dramatically, as well.

[desolutionist]

One further matter to address is that of the brevity of modern control matches. As Chris has rightly expressed, oftentimes when facing both Force of Will and Mana Drains, players do well to prepare an optimal hand before gambling on victory. To attempt to win and fail in a control mirror is in general to lose. This knowledge has in my experience lead to many control mirrors between good players taking many more than three turns.

LoA is obviously significant in the control mirror if both players pursue the control role.  But if experienced Gifts players abandon turn one Merchant Scrolls for turn 1 LoA activations, wouldn't that mean that any inexperienced Gifts player, looking to play aggressively, will win every time?  I strongly believe that the "draw, go" approach to winning the mirror is entirely incorrect and will always concede to aggression simply because a resolved Gifts Ungiven is far more relevant than the Mox Emerald you netted from the LoA.

[The Atog Lord]

But if experienced Gifts players abandon turn one Merchant Scrolls for turn 1 Library activations, wouldn't that mean that any inexperienced Gifts player, looking to play aggressively, will win every time?

Only if they are lucky enough to have a hand that can win quickly every time. More than not, they'd walk into a counter and lose.

[LotusHead]

I can't imagine Library of Alexandria, the honorary 10th Power card, ever getting unrestricted.  Even considering the unrestricted, and probably more powerful Bazaar of Baghdad and Mishra's Workshop.

Black Vise, commonly mentioned, would be unrestricted first.  That is, after Voltaic Key is unrestricted. (it's still restricted, right?)

[UR]

Wasteland, Pithing Needle, discard effects and just winning the game would keep LoA in check if unrestricted. My only concern would be some new deck designed around this card (much like people built a deck around Workshop). So I think it could come off... but that nobody should be surprised if it got back on quite fast.

[dicemanx]

Until I stop seeing LoA win games, and *not* just in control mirrors, I will continue to run the card. I don't recall the last time LoA has lost a game for me, but it certainly has won plenty. As Anusien stated before, it is a "deal with me or die" card - it puts much more pressure on you to combo off before you're buried under their card advantage. For every game that Steve can conjure up in trying to provide evidence for LoA being a poor choice in a Drain based archetype, I can provide two games where there is a very strong correlation between playing and getting it active early and victory.

The inevitable counter of "opportunity costs" and wondering if LoA-fueled victories could have been "more solid" (to use Steve's term) using something else are a quick road to nowhere. Of course, we can play that game with everything else - we can go down the list of any given Gifts list, and pose the same question for every card we encounter. Why single out LoA?

I strongly believe that the "draw, go" approach to winning the mirror is entirely incorrect

"Entirely" incorrect huh? Playing control mirrors requires being flexible and choosing your role based on board position/cards in hand/knowledge of your opponent and his deck. If you think you can force a particular approach in the mirror you won't get very far.

[OfficeShredder]

Ok, instead of spending a week arguing about this, why doesn't someone suggest a decklist that would break library of alexandria to show it's broken?

[carlossb]

Ok, instead of spending a week arguing about this, why doesn't someone suggest a decklist that would break library of alexandria to show it's broken?

That´s the same as asking people sometime ago to show their unveiled or possible combos with Doomsday (Desire-Beacon) while discussing for its unrestriction.
It´s never going to happen.

[mulder]

What happened to: "if it ain't broke then don't fix it"?
I think Library is perfectly balanced in decks as a one-of, but I'm very reluctant to say that unrestricting it would be a good idea, because it's just too good. Drawing one more card each turn than your opponent is quite good I've heared... .

And Library being too slow is nonsense. I don't mind giving up a bit of tempo to gain a load of cardadvantage, but perhaps that's just me. As a control player, I can say that when my opponent plays a first turn library I'm pretty scared. I know then that I have to win in the next few turns because otherwise his Library will have given him too much advantage.
And if you don't use it as a carddrawer, you can still use it to get mana...

I vote against unrestriction.

[roberts91rom]

Since everybody seems all hyped up about the B/R list, I'm going to list every card that will be unrestricted before LoA. All those cards are either weaker, or are run in less decks than LoA. I'm sure there are a few other card that i missed with this quick list but that is what i have seen in a quick 1 minute scan of the B/R list that I feel is worse than LoA/run less than LoA. In my opinion debate these cards before you debate the Library.
Black Vise
Channel
Chrome Mox
Crop Rotation
Demonic Consultation  
Dream Halls
Enlightened Tutor
Fact or Fiction
Fastbond
Frantic Search
Grim Monolith
Gush
Memory Jar
Mind Twist
Mind’s Desire
Mox Diamond  
Personal Tutor
Regrowth
Time Spiral
Voltaic Key  
Windfall

[Grand Inquisitor]

I agree with Smennen that this is one of the most difficult cards to assess for inclusion in a deck.

From what I've seen, these are the arguments brought to bear in this effort:

1) Metagame - this emphasizes LoA's benefit in the control mirror, but it's drawbacks in other matches.
2) Answers - making a case that the ease with which the card is answered by duress and waste effects
3) Comparison - looking at this card vs. Bazaar, Workshop, et al, and trying to decide unrestriction based on relative power level.
4) Control Mirror - this argues that even in its niche, LoA is outdated given play dynamics of faster 'control' decks

What I immediately thought about was entirely different:

First, would 4x LoA enable a degenerate combo deck?  I concur with its supporters that 4x would allow control decks, uninterrupted, to run rampant on whatever it was playing.  However, I don't think it would create something that won consistenly through hate on turns 1-2.5.

Second, what kind of incentive does WotC (or whoever owns it now) have to unrestrict it?  Increasing the secondary market for LoA wouldn't gain them much, and it likely won't attract new players (one could argue unrestricting berserk was more 'fun').  They have a reasonably stable metagame right now, why rock the boat?

While I think especially points 1 & 4 are really pertinent to T1 in general, and interesting to debate, I don't think they have much bearing on the likelyhood of LoA's unrestriction.

As for jumping in the ring in the East vs. West argument, I think it's really interesting that many south and midwest tourneys are won by drain decks as well, it's just that they don't sport LoA (e.g. Biller's Slaver, and Spero's MDG).  In the MDG 2007 and the 'offshoots SCG' threads there's been discussion about the tactics employed in the 'control' matchup.  I think whoever cracks this puzzle goes a long way towards the next paradigm shift for T1.  The thing that keeps coming back in my thoughts is Peter's talk of 'flexibility' and Zvi's 'grabbing both roles'.

As for roberts91rom,

Demonic Consultation 
Frantic Search
Gush
Memory Jar
Mind’s Desire

that guy is crazy.

[Harlequin]

I think there is a class of restricted cards that are restricted because they are too powerful on turn 1.  Spesifically:

LOA
Black Vise
Fastbond
Chrome Mox
Lotus Petal
Mox Diamond (im not sure I agree with this cards restriction though)
Possibly: Demonic Consultation and Entomb
Arguably: Trinisphere
Arguable: Stripmine (originally speaking; now that COW exsists, this is good at any point in the game)

I think overall, these cards (with the notable acception of trinisphere) are weaker than other restricted cards on the average.  However, they are each amazingly more powerful when played on turn 1.  Generally speaking however, when these cards show up late game, they are rather un-impressive.

I think they are restricted based on the concept of minimizing the odds of getting the card (or playing against the card) on turn 1.  Also haveing them un-restricted would put further importance on winning the coin toss.


As for a list?
Start with Thirst-Slaver (or even Kowal's Night's whisper slaver)

-1 mana source (petal, valut, citadel, stripmine ... slaver typically runs 1 or two mana's from that list)
+1 LOA (going to 2 maindeck)

Then put +2 LOAs on the board.  All of a sudden, Slaver's postboard vrs Gifts just got alot better than 50/50.


=====

The counterpoint - Don't try and reciprocate this.  No where an I saying that I think every card that is good on turn 1 should be restricted.  Obviously it's a matter of degree.

[roberts91rom]

@Grand Inquisitor

Consultation, frantic search, gush aren't run in any decks even as a 1-of, so the same logic used to unrestrict LoA could be used on those 3. Mind's desire is run in combo exclusively. It is one of the weakest bombs in combo. There are other, more powerful cards that could be run instead. It costs 4 colorless, 2 blue mana for 4 random free cards on average. Memory Jar is the only one on your list that I think is comparable to LoA, and that is only because Shop is unrestricted. (Not saying I want it restricted, calm down everybody.)

Consultation can randomly kill you, Grim Tutor doesn't.
Frantic Search is Bazaar that requires 3 mana-producing lands in play. At that point, LoA would have given you +2CA.
Why is Gush even on that list? Is Tog making a comeback? Is 2 lands for 2 cards better than 1 land for 1 card per turn?
Memory Jar costs 5 mana in any deck. In combo it is used only because of Tinker, you don't need more. In Shop decks it is as powerful as LoA is in control decks, for different reasons of course.
Mind's Desire. It is either amazing or a complete flop. It requires a massive investment and if it is countered or you get bad cards you might as well concede. Most of the time when I see it in my hand I wish it were something else. The fact that it randomly wins games still makes it a good card, but LoA consistantly wins games.

I stand by the fact that I would rather have every card on the list I made unrestricted before Library.The only cards I left out of the list were cards that would make a certain archetype insanely imbalanced.

To any more people that think anything on that list I made is too good I ask you this. Would any of them warp the format as badly as the UNRESTRICTED Gift's Ungiven? Every deck now either runs Gifts, can easily support Gifts in it or is designed to hate Gifts. Compare every card on that list to Gifts and see where you end up.

As for why Library should stay restricted, I completely agree that if we are saying 1 land for 1 card per turn is bad we should seriously evaluate what isn't restricted.

Against Stax it can get you out of mana locks through free card draw.
Against Ichorid you lose anyways.
Against anything with mana drain the game is all about card advantage. LoA, card advantage? Card advantage, LoA? Synonyms.
Against Fish you baited a wasteland for coloured mana, have a Dark Confidant that doesn't make you lose life or you just blow them out of the water. Either that or you lose and a basic Island wouldn't have been any better.

That's about it. The whole meta and LoA is not automatically useless against any of the decks like everyone has jumped to the comclusion of.

As to answers you have wasteland. Duress is not an answer because either you draw to 8 in response, or your next draw step takes you to 7 anyways. In addition to that it is still possible to Scroll->Recall to 7 again.

Bazaar is only good in decks that abuse the discard effect. Gifts doesn't run Bazaar for a reason. Bazaar restriction destroys entire decks, while Library unrestriction benefits the decks that are already tier 1 and winning. The same can be said for Workshop.

As to the control mirror I had Tinker->DSC turn 1 against Gifts with my CS game 2. I had double FoW backup. The Gifts player used my all-in "godly" turn 1 play to his advantage. He duressed me, then cast Ancestral. I FoWed he FoWed and he bounced DSC promptly after. Control is all about card advantage and I will never make that play again. Going for the quick win will always lose to the control hand.

That clearly shows how LoA is still very powerful in all 4 areas you deamed necessary.

As a side note yes I am crazy but that still doesn't make me wrong.

[desolutionist]

@Grand Inquisitor

Consultation, frantic search, gush aren't run in any decks even as a 1-of, so the same logic used to unrestrict LoA could be used on those 3. Mind's desire is run in combo exclusively. It is one of the weakest bombs in combo. There are other, more powerful cards that could be run instead. It costs 4 colorless, 2 blue mana for 4 random free cards on average. Memory Jar is the only one on your list that I think is comparable to LoA, and that is only because Shop is unrestricted. (Not saying I want it restricted, calm down everybody.)

What!?  Desire is the strongest bomb in Long.  Period.  Can you imagine extended with artifact accelerants, tutors, and Dark Rituals?  Insane.  Why don't we just unrestrict LED and Burning Wish too?  I mean no one really uses those cards anymore either, right?

Your list is absurd.

[Jacob Orlove]

There's a reason we usually don't do threads like this. Closed.