How would you fix the metagame?

[moxpearl]

I'll add another vote to Banning Will.  On top of that, I unrestrict a few cards such as voltaic key, dream halls, and personal tutor.

What's the worst that could happen?  Maybe...a deck that's as degenerate as Combo and Gifts could come up, but I can't imagine the format would be any more broken than it is now.  And, they could simply unban Will or restrict a card the next quarter.  It might give Vintage players a fun, diverse 1-2 quarters to try new decks and new cards.  Isn't it getting boring being able to predict the opponents deck by their first land and spell cast?  It's not like there are Pro Tours or Grand Prix money hanging on the format.

Another interesting question I've thought of is what if Workshop, Gifts, and Drain were currently restricted, and the question was asked if they should be unrestricted.  Or what if Will was banned and the question was asked if it should be restricted.  I'm sure many people would say "never, they are too powerful" just like we say about cards currently on the list.  I often feel the restricted list is a bit based on the history and tradition rather than whether cards on there are any more powerful than cards not on the list.  So, bottom line, I would argue for a more aggressive policy on the banned/restricted list for Vintage.

[silvernail]

Vintage is about doing broken things, even if Will were to get banned that would not change, Green adn white normally don't do broken things and therefore aren't seen much in vintage.

You can either make green and white do broken things, make green and white prevent broken things, or some how try to stop people from doing broken things ( which would result in the format becoming Legacy after a fashion).

Merchant Scroll and Gifts Ungiven could get restricted to help reduce the amount of mana drain based decks you see ( since most drain decks are gifts decks these days), though it just frees up 5-6 slots in Gifts decks as opposed to stopping them altogether.

With the shear amount of fast mana and combo engines avaiable in vintage, combo is always going to have some kind of presence, so storm combo is probably impossible to get rid of.

Still the format is just in a rut, and could possibly use innovation as opposed to just bans or restirctions.

[Yare]

Illissus: Stephen Menendian has written an excellent article on Will and why it should be banned. I'm sure he can provide a link when he sees this thread next.

Here is the article of interest:

Fine, Just Ban It Already! by Steve Menendian

It is available to all for viewing.

[Ryan_Royal]

Now that we are in the business of suggesting cards that will probably never see play:

 Green Elemental Blast
Instant
Counter target blue or black spell.

[Vegeta2711]

  Gush gave aggro decks in the form of gro the boost they needed to compete.

Just a note, but if Gush ended up unrestricted, most people would probably just replace the creatures with more draw and storm spells. I know I would. Gogo Tendrils with 4 Duress and 10 counters!

[Moxlotus]

To answer the question originally asked
1. Ban Will
2. Restrict Drain
3. Restrict Bazaar
4. Restrict Workshop
5. Restrict Oath (Oath would probably be insane with the above choices)

Personally, I see nothing wrong with the format right now.

[Hi-Val]

Yeah I can guarantee you that I wouldn't play nice with Gush if it were unrestricted.

[rvs]

To answer the question originally asked
1. Ban Will
2. Restrict Drain
3. Restrict Bazaar
4. Restrict Workshop
5. Restrict Oath (Oath would probably be insane with the above choices)

Personally, I see nothing wrong with the format right now.

Will vs Anti-Will is nothing wrong? W/e makes you happy

To adress your restriction choices: Where would a restriction schedule like that leave something like Dark Ritual, Goblin Welder, Intuition and Grim Tutor?

[Methuselahn]

I would reprint power (this is as likely as banning will) and then encourage sanctioned only events.

I would do this because, honestly, the metagame is fine.  Sanctioning events would probably decrease the overall power level of these proxy saturated tournament decks as a whole, thus creating a much more interactive meta.

[Moxlotus]

To answer the question originally asked
1. Ban Will
2. Restrict Drain
3. Restrict Bazaar
4. Restrict Workshop
5. Restrict Oath (Oath would probably be insane with the above choices)

Personally, I see nothing wrong with the format right now.

Will vs Anti-Will is nothing wrong? W/e makes you happy

To adress your restriction choices: Where would a restriction schedule like that leave something like Dark Ritual, Goblin Welder, Intuition and Grim Tutor?

I see a format with a large number of different decks making top 8.  I don't see anything wrong with it.

Ritual would get a lot worse without Will.  Welder gets a lot worse without Bazaar and Drain.  Intuition gets a lot worse without Drains and Will.  Grim Tutor pretty much sucks without Will.

[Methuselahn]

I often feel the restricted list is a bit based on the history and tradition rather than whether cards on there are any more powerful than cards not on the list.  So, bottom line, I would argue for a more aggressive policy on the banned/restricted list for Vintage.

I agree.  The problem is that Wizards doesn't want to have to deal with confused casual players.  Why they are catering to the casual crowd with a B&R list based on proxied, competitive tournament play is beyond me.

Along the lines of what you're suggesting, a rotation of restritcted lists might be refreshing.

[brianpk80]

Viable GW environment:

Restrict Brainstorm
Ban Tendrils of Agony
Ban Chalice of the Void
Unrestrict Fastbond
Unrestrict Enlightened Tutor

Voila!

[forests failed you]

Create a new format called "Vintage-lite" and let the players vote at www.wizards.com as to what cards they don't like, want restricted, banned, errated, et cetera. 

And then when players get tired of that format everybody can vote on a new format called "Vintage-lite-lite" until everybody has their own format where the only cards that are legal are the ones that they like; and, they never have to play against the cards that they don't like.

For me, I like Vintage just fine the way it is.  There are a lot of good decks to choose from, and aside from Workshop decks, all of the archetypes seem to be thriving.  As long as Maro doesn't print any more Mind's Desires, Yawgmoth's busted, or Tinkers;  I think the metagame will simply fix itself over time.  You have to remember that changes in Vintage take place over a very long period of time.  Firstly, because the cards are so powerful and the card pool is so big;  secondly, because the main catalyst for new tech is the printing of new cards on par with the current vintage staples (on average about 1 per set), and lastly, because there are only a handful of major vintage events each year.  Unlike standard where there are a billion everyday, Vintage metagames develop in the months in between SCG events, whereas other formats develop weekend to weekend as the new PTQ decklists go up.

[zeus-online]

I wish they'd remove yawgmoth's will, although i usually play a will deck
I prefer a control heavy meta-game with aggro/aggro-control decks gunning for the top control decks, and a few combo decks which blows aggro away, but struggle against the top control decks.

Man i sound oldschool

/Zeus

[OfficeShredder]

As long as Maro doesn't print any more Mind's Desires, Yawgmoth's busted, or Tinkers;  I think the metagame will simply fix itself over time.  You have to remember that changes in Vintage take place over a very long period of time.  Firstly, because the cards are so powerful and the card pool is so big;  secondly, because the main catalyst for new tech is the printing of new cards on par with the current vintage staples (on average about 1 per set), and lastly, because there are only a handful of major vintage events each year.  Unlike standard where there are a billion everyday, Vintage metagames develop in the months in between SCG events, whereas other formats develop weekend to weekend as the new PTQ decklists go up.

Except the purpose of this thread was to put up what would (assumedly) be a goal that WotC would want to carry through on (in the hypothetical event they take an interest in vintage).  Don't try and tell me that the metagame is going to balance itself out color-wise over time; if anything, the prevalance of mana denial has made decks shy away from green and white as support colors.

Just to clarify once more:  This thread is not about whether the metagame is broken, or whether there are enough different archetypes.  It's about specifically what is in the original post.  Nothing more.

[Harlequin]

Print the following cards:

Yawgmoth's Garden 2G
Sorcery
Until end of turn, if a card would be put into your graveyard remove it from the game instead.
Until end of turn You may play cards in your graveyard as though they were in your hand.

Shaded Ritual G
Instant
Add GGG to your mana pool

Vines of Aggony 2GG
Target player looses 2 life and you gain 2 life. 
Storm

Ancient Recall W
Instant
Target player draws 3 cards.

Time Tax 1W
Sorcery
Take an extra turn after this one.

Time Order 2W
Sorcery
Each player shuffles thier graveyard and hand into thier library and draws 7 cards

[OfficeShredder]

Right, and then you can just build type 2 TPS, only more broken.  That'll work    I wonder why it's so difficult for people to actually consider what WotC would do if they took an interest in the vintage metagame

[Smmenen]

I often feel the restricted list is a bit based on the history and tradition rather than whether cards on there are any more powerful than cards not on the list.  So, bottom line, I would argue for a more aggressive policy on the banned/restricted list for Vintage.

I agree.  The problem is that Wizards doesn't want to have to deal with confused casual players.  Why they are catering to the casual crowd with a B&R list based on proxied, competitive tournament play is beyond me.

There was no discernable metagame difference at the Vintage Champs as any given SCG tournament.    A finals of PItch Long v. MDG hat mirrored the SCG Circuit this year almost exactly.  Arguably, that's the ONLY tournament the DCI should be paying attention to if they aren't going to look at SCG data.   

[Harlequin]

wait I got another one:

Gift's Vault
Enchantment

Gift's Vault comes into play tapped.
Skip a Turn: Untap Gift's Vault

[OfficeShredder]

Yeah I can guarantee you that I wouldn't play nice with Gush if it were unrestricted.

Right, but what exactly would you be using gush for?  Return two islands to your hand?  Combo decks don't even get two lands in play half the time.  Maybe drain tendrils or gifts could run it, but you don't see them running one copy, and merchant scroll is actually pretty synergous (is that a word?  :lol: ) with gush... the best explanation is that while it looks cool on paper, without a green "play a ton of lands" base to support it or some other thing to do with all those cards in your hand, it's more flashy than it is broken

EDIT: Actually, now I kind of want to run gush in my gifts deck.  Has anyone tried it?

[forests failed you]

Except that the point of VIntage has never been to be 'fair,' or to 'play nice' with all the colors equally.  Vintage is a format that is fueled by 0 mana artifacts that make Mana.  The Moxes, Black Lotus, Mana Crypt, and Sol Ring are the cards from which every powerful deck in the format derives its power.  It just so happens that Blue and Black cards (because tutoring, library manipulation, and tutoring) play the most unfairly with free Mana. 

Other strings of decks have risen up in the past few years, primarily the Fish and Stax archetypes which are specifically aligned to cripple an opponent largely by taking away their ability to abuse moxes.  If you are not playing a Blue/Black combo/combo-control deck that abuses Yawgmoth's Will, it is likely that you are packing maindeck artifact Mana hate.  (Null Rod, Kataki, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, et cetera).

I really enjoyed Harelquin's satiric comment about printing white and green Ancestral Recall's and Time Walks as a way to make white or green good;  because honestly, that is the only way that those colors will never be good enough to carry a deck on their own without a Blue or a Black base.  SImply, because Blue and Black already have cards printed in them that are so insanely powerful that they could never ever be reprinted, especially in another color.

However, I think that we are beginning to see a trend where Wizards is printing more and more powerful creature and utility cards in newer sets (as opposed to busted mana, draw, and tutoring).  The key is that as more and more quality creatures get printed, the better decks with creatures will be.  Dark Confidant, Kataki, Jotun Grunt, are all good examples.  I do think that Wizards is mindful of Vintage and does try and impact it in subtle ways that are not directly disruptive to standard and extended.  As exemplified by the cards that I listed.

Honestly, I would really have liked Empty the Warrens to have been a Green card that made squirrels or sapporlings. 

I think that there are a good deal of cards on the restricted list that could safely come off and not make an impact on the format.  That being said, THEY WOULD NOT MAKE AN IMPACT.  SO, that doesn't solve the problem of balancing the colors in Vintage.  Trying to balance the colors is the wrong question to ask, because they will never be balanced without straight up banning cards... Lots of cards.  But since certain colors have busted cards and they exist, I think the real concern with Vintage is to balance the Archetypes:  Agro, control, combo, prision.  Vintage is at its best when all four styles of decks are playable, and no one specific deck is dominating or unstoppable.  Usually, the meta will shift and correct itself... When it cannot Wizards steps in and axes a card.


Right now, there are as many viable stratagies in Vintage as there are in any other format.  Everybody knows that certain cards could come off the list, however restricting any specific card would greatly effect the balance between the archetypes.  I think that Wizards would be very wary to make such a bold move, and risk upsetting lots and lots of people.

[Pave]

1. Restrict Gifts Ungiven

2. Restrict Merchant Scroll

3. Restrict Grim Tutor

(Unrestricted these tutors undermine the purpose of the restricted list.)

4. Print Angel's Gift:

   
   Instant
   Split Second
   For every spell target opponent played this turn, gain 2 life.
   Draw a card if you lost no life this turn.

 
5. Print Prehistoric Time.
 
   
   Enchantment
   Fading 2
   Only creature spells can be played.

[Methuselahn]

I often feel the restricted list is a bit based on the history and tradition rather than whether cards on there are any more powerful than cards not on the list.  So, bottom line, I would argue for a more aggressive policy on the banned/restricted list for Vintage.

I agree.  The problem is that Wizards doesn't want to have to deal with confused casual players.  Why they are catering to the casual crowd with a B&R list based on proxied, competitive tournament play is beyond me.

There was no discernable metagame difference at the Vintage Champs as any given SCG tournament.    A finals of PItch Long v. MDG hat mirrored the SCG Circuit this year almost exactly.  Arguably, that's the ONLY tournament the DCI should be paying attention to if they aren't going to look at SCG data.   

I'm not sure I'd agree.

First, basing The List on the World Champs is hardly logical.  Take Trinisphere for example.  This was restricted because it was 'unfun.'  'Unfun' pertains to your average tournament, not finding the best of the best -- the world championship.   Second, I can't help but think that the World Champs in ANY format is unique and not a great barometer of what the format truly is.  The World Champs is going to attract far more players from farther away and the competion is going to be far more competitive than any SCG.  I don't recall meeting several players from Italy, Japan, or Australia at SCG events.  Not true for the Champs.

Also, what about all of Europe?  Why shouldn't Wizards be following tournaments there?  Europe=Sanctioned.  This is what Wizards should be following adamantly.  Wotc should logically be adhering to their policy of not wanting to break sanctioning rules (proxies) and also, should be trying to support and promote their own business/rules.  Proxies are in direct conflict with what the Reserved list was created for  -- the collectability of their own cards. 

I believe there are many people that think that proxies make a 'better' metagame.  This is simply not true.  Yea, it may make for a more 'fair' metagame.  But really, it only makes for a different meta. 

God forbid in the land of the American Dream we cannot have anything but total equality.  Basically, Proxies=Communism.

Proxies are hands down the most metagaming defining feature of any proxy tournament.  Proxies are the reason we have a Will vs Non-Will environment.

[Nehptis]

1. Ban Y Will
2. See #1
3. See #2

If banning is not reasonable then restrict Gifts.

Also, make Workshop Legendary.  It fits the flavor...how could the guy have more than one kick ass workshop?  But, then you'd have to make cards like Bazaar and Orchard Legendary, too...for the same flavor reason.

[Jacob Orlove]

Yeah I can guarantee you that I wouldn't play nice with Gush if it were unrestricted.

Right, but what exactly would you be using gush for?  Return two islands to your hand? Combo decks don't even get two lands in play half the time.

There's this Fastbond card, I hear it is pretty good.

[Vegeta2711]

it's more flashy than it is broken

Never actually tried a Gush combo deck have you?

[Harlequin]

Another Idea that falls under what "could" be done, but would likely cause too much confusion (esp to new players) is put a limit on cards from a particular list.  For example.  you could have "Tutors" as a class of cards.  and say.. any deck could run up to 4 Class-T cards (or if you prefer... no more than 1/15th of your deck).

Class-T
-------
Demonic Tutor -restricted-
Demonic Consultation -restricted-
Vampiric Tutor
Imperial Seal
Mystical Tutor
Enlighted Tutor
Personal Tutor
Entomb
Grim Tutor


So for example, I would be at limit from Class-T cards if I ran:
Demonic x1, Mystical x1, Vamp x1, Imp x1
Demonic x1, Entomb x1, Vamp x2
Demonic x1, Entomb x3
Enlightend Tutor x4

But I couldn't run say...
DT x2, Imperial seal x2 (becuase of the restriction still on DT)
Dt x1, Mystical x1, Vamp x1, Imp x1, Grim tutor x1

Other Suggestions might be Class-A cards for Mana Accellerants.  And only allow 12 (or 1/5th) cards out of the following:

Class-A
--------
Black Lotus -restricted-
Each Mox -each restricted-
Mana Crypt -restricted-
Mana Vault -restricted-
Sol Ring -restricted-
Tolarian Academy -restricted-
Channel -restricted-
Lotus Petal (I'm going to say unrestricted)
Mox Diamond
Chrome Mox
Grim Monolith
Fastbond
Dark Ritual*
Mishra's Workshop*

* Maybe thats a bit harsh... that might deal too big a blow to combo and shop decks.

So again, you could run a deck on:
 x4 Fastbond
 x3 Mox Diamond
 x2 Chrome mox
 x1 Channel
 x1 Lotus
 x1 Mox Emerald

.. and forgo running off-color mox.

[unknown.root]

For vintage, I'd say ban will, and pull as much stuff of the restricted list as they can.

However as a diehard stax player, i'm fine playing against will+storm at least then i know how they win, if will goes, then combo will branch off into a milllion directions and thus making my choices in locking the game up ever so tougher.

When the other player sits down, and i know what he's playing, i can guess 56+ cards in his/her deck. Thats a huge advantage for the prison player, however random decks are a nightmare.

[Hi-Val]

Yeah I can guarantee you that I wouldn't play nice with Gush if it were unrestricted.

Right, but what exactly would you be using gush for?  Return two islands to your hand?  Combo decks don't even get two lands in play half the time.  Maybe drain tendrils or gifts could run it, but you don't see them running one copy, and merchant scroll is actually pretty synergous (is that a word?  :lol: ) with gush... the best explanation is that while it looks cool on paper, without a green "play a ton of lands" base to support it or some other thing to do with all those cards in your hand, it's more flashy than it is broken

EDIT: Actually, now I kind of want to run gush in my gifts deck.  Has anyone tried it?

Back in Gro-A-Tog days, you'd usually DT or Vamp for Fastbond, and because you had unrestricted Gushes, you could just not worry about tutoring up Will because it would be coming anyway. You play a Gush, generate 2 mana off it and draw 2, play another draw card in hand like Merch, go get another Gush, rinse, repeat until you find Will.

The thing about unrestricted Gush is that it basically turns your gameplan into simply "go get Fastbond".

[OfficeShredder]

Back in Gro-A-Tog days, you'd usually DT or Vamp for Fastbond, and because you had unrestricted Gushes, you could just not worry about tutoring up Will because it would be coming anyway. You play a Gush, generate 2 mana off it and draw 2, play another draw card in hand like Merch, go get another Gush, rinse, repeat until you find Will.

The thing about unrestricted Gush is that it basically turns your gameplan into simply "go get Fastbond".

How is this any better than the current combo decks we have though?