B&R Results are In - No Change for Vintage

[Akuma]

@dicemanx

I'm actually fine with the existing "power plays". I don't want them removed. I just think that things like 3sphere and Gush would be on par, so they should not be restricted.

Distortion is fine as long as the source of it does not become the only viable strategy. Mana Drain makes expensive spells unplayable in Vintage unless they can come down before that second blue mana goes up, that's fine.

Vintage is already filled with "power plays", that's the way it is (unless banning cards becomes a reality). I don't want ANYTHING that is used in Vintage banned. I don't want certain strategies to be selectively fostered while others are deemed "unfun" when they are perfectly in balance with the others. The metagame is at a point where it can handle these things. Trinisphere would not, could not dominate Vintage, neither would Gush. The metagame would adjust, the cycle would continue, there is no need for Wizards to intervene unless something is proven to be a problem for an extended period of time. This is Vintage, metagame shifts are GLACIAL, we should not clamor for restrictions when we all know it takes EONS for WotC to unrestrict something...

[dr.NASH]

I would love to see the statistics of brainstorms played in top8 decks.  It's not so much that I would like to see it restricted, but rather as a benchmark. Brainstorm is generally accepted as norm in vintage right now and would probably not be seriously looked at for restriction without huge and unforseeable changes to the format.  But, my guess is that its popularity exceeds that of workshop and mana drain by atleast 20%. 

Whether it be Gifts ungiven, mishra's workshop, oath of druids, or meddling mage the best unrestricted cards are going to be defining to the metagame.  The only truely back breaking restricted card is yawgmoth's Will.  However, I would not want wizards to set precedent with the benning of Yawg Will.  So, all in all I am accepting of no new restrictions or bans. 

[yespuhyren]

This whole post was both a flame and flamebait. There are much more civil ways of discussing such matters than direct personal attacks. I highly recommend either leaving this alone, or if you must try again, doing so without resorting to flames.

Full Warning.
-Godder

[yespuhyren]

But the idea of restricting Brainstorm is ridiculous. Brainstorm is really the foundation of Vintage. Every deck in todays metagame (not counting sui-black and R/G) utilizes Brainstorm except for Stax. and Stax's purpose is to hinder all the other decks that use brainstorm. If Brainstorm got restricted vintage wouldnt be vintage anymore. The "mess" would go away (I dont think theres a mess at all, in Top 8's are really healthy with 6-8 different decks with making it each time). Vintage would turn into legacy with a restricted list, Workshops would dominate, half of stax would then get restricted in response, and people would stop playing Magic.

The restriction of Brainstorm would also wreck Combo

I completely disagree with everything here, as it is based solely on speculation and no factual evidence will ever back up any claims you have made, and I highly doubt anyone would agree with anything you have said.  I'm going to leave it at that, because any attempt to actually argue this will just come out as a flame.  I do not intend to flame you, and I would be more than happy to discuss this via PM.

As far as restricting brianstorm, it would change 3 cards in the decks.  -3 Brainstorm + 3?  That would make the decks a little bit weaker, and maybe then we won't have blue based control decks taking almost half or more of the average T8.  I know our last local T1 in Toronto had 6 drains in the T8.  SIX.  75%!!!  This has to mean something.  While yes, the decks are often different, with popular drain decks being:

Bomberman
Slaver
Dry Slaver
Gifts
Oath
Drain Tendrils

All it means is that blue based control decks are so strong that the counter base and random brokenness is what makes the decks so good, as well as the fact that they are brutally consistant and fairly forgiving in a lot of the cases.  Random random broken gifts/CS hands can help bad pilots make T8 just as much as random broken stax decks do.  Just stax is much more easily hated.  Another reason why Blue Based control SHOULD in some way or another be weakened in my opinion, and for the moment I will likely think that Brainstorm would be the best option to weaken them.  There are very few common cards in all of those decks and that is the one you can touch.  You can't hit FOW or Drain, so hit the card everyone is hailing as "The best unrestricted card in the game"

[That0neguy]

It would be interesting to see what would happen without brainstorm/fetches.  Also if Gifts/GT were restricted and CS/bomberman became the new best deck I think extripate/welder hate would start to show up a lot more and possibly keep those decks down.  Although through my expeiriences with bomberman I beatdown with the creatures almost as much as I combo out.

I am also farily confidant that gush needs to stay where it is.  a deck using cretures could kill on turn 2 with several counterspells, just think if it had tendrils or empty the warrens. 

[diopter]

It would be interesting to see what would happen without brainstorm/fetches.  Also if Gifts/GT were restricted and CS/bomberman became the new best deck I think extripate/welder hate would start to show up a lot more and possibly keep those decks down.  Although through my expeiriences with bomberman I beatdown with the creatures almost as much as I combo out.

I am also farily confidant that gush needs to stay where it is.  a deck using cretures could kill on turn 2 with several counterspells, just think if it had tendrils or empty the warrens. 

Restricting Brainstorms and fetchlands will likely never happen, and more importantly, should never happen. These are the cards that fix manabases, which means that people can play their cards, which means players are having fun (because they can play their cards).

Of course, the same could be same of cards like Ancestral Recall (you draw 3 cards, so it fixes your manabase!). But, AR's card advantage (+2) is very undercosted, while Brainstorm's CA (+0) and the amount of cards you get to see (3) is relatively on the same curve as recent cantrips such as Serum Visions (yeah, yeah, Brainstorm is much better for myriad reasons, but you get my general drift).

(Drain decks) are brutally consistant and fairly forgiving in a lot of the cases.

I see nothing wrong with Drain decks being more consistent than Shop decks, when Shop decks get to play with 4 reusable Black Lotuses.

[Akuma]

4 reusable Black Lotuses

Workshops are not even remotely close to being reusable Black Lotuses. I'm not going to go into detail, but this is one of the worst comparisons ever, and people keep making it. Why? Is it because they both have the number 3 in them?

Last time I checked, Workshops have this MAJOR limitation on what you can play with the mana they provide...

[mogote]

Another reason why Blue Based control SHOULD in some way or another be weakened in my opinion, and for the moment I will likely think that Brainstorm would be the best option to weaken them.  There are very few common cards in all of those decks and that is the one you can touch.  You can't hit FOW or Drain, so hit the card everyone is hailing as "The best unrestricted card in the game"

Maybe I'm missing something but why couldn't Mana Drain be restricted?
(And to make things clear I'm opposed to any restrictions at the moment.)

I am also farily confidant that gush needs to stay where it is.  a deck using cretures could kill on turn 2 with several counterspells, just think if it had tendrils or empty the warrens. 

Could you please go into more detail about this kind of deck? I can't really imagine a creature-based deck winning on the second turn (not counting stuff like EtW).

[zeus-online]

I am also farily confidant that gush needs to stay where it is.  a deck using cretures could kill on turn 2 with several counterspells, just think if it had tendrils or empty the warrens. 

Could you please go into more detail about this kind of deck? I can't really imagine a creature-based deck winning on the second turn (not counting stuff like EtW).

He's talking about old 4-Gush GAT....but...the deck rarely won that fast, although it was possible....just as it was technically possible for Hulk Smash to win on turn 1-2....with alot of luck.

/Zeus

[Necrologia]

I remember reading a while ago that Brainstorm would never be restricted, since it helped people find FoW in the first few turns. In a sense, at the same time it was adding consistency to decks, it was also being used to help keep the ridiculous turn 1-2 plays in check.

I'm not sure if combo or control would take a bigger hit if Brainstorm were restricted. That said, I really can't ever see it happening. It's a cantrip for goodness sake. It's not that uncommon to see someone Brainstorm looking for a counter/land, fail to find it, then have 2 turns of junk on top of the library.

Control decks are also being built recently that get less out of Brainstorm than they used to. Darksteel Colossus, the poster boy for "Brainstorm me back" is seeing less and less play. Gifts decks are running fewer cards that are dead in the opener, and Slaver is not only less popular than it used to be, but runs fewer expensive artifacts that require either a Thirst or a Brainstorm.

Brainstorm is never broken. Asking for it to be restricted seems short-sighted at best. Does this format really need more randomness in it?

[yespuhyren]

No. It needs less "play drains or go home" in it. 

[Implacable]

No. It needs less "play drains or go home" in it. 

Here's the thing about what makes Drains the best right now; it's not the Drains.  It's the fact that Drain decks - almost all of them - have a combo finish that other decks simply can't beat.  Gifts can just play control, countering a few spells, Brainstorming and Scrolling, and then, as Nate Pease would say, EOTGiftsGG.  Bomberman, with its 12+ counterspells, can lock down the game as much as possible with counters and Trinket Maged 1-ofs until it just goes off.  Control Slaver is probably the only deck left that actually attempts to control the game absolutely.  This innovation of a combo-finish is relatively new; Slaver's design clearly has roots in Keeper's design, and Gifts has roots in Trix.  However, like later Keeper builds, even Slaver has a combo finish of a sort: a massive Will that blows the opponent out of the water.  Drain is not the problem; Brainstorm is not the problem (in fact, even more so than Force, it is the glue that holds Type 1 together); Force of Will is not the problem; the problem is the combo finish.  Now, clearly, Drain decks are not yet annihilating Vintage Magic as we know it, as mathematically demonstrated in this thread.  However, if you are frustrated with Drain decks, don't point towards the ancillary cards; point towards the undeniably broken kill.

[zeus-online]

No. It needs less "play drains or go home" in it. 

Here's the thing about what makes Drains the best right now; it's not the Drains.  It's the fact that Drain decks - almost all of them - have a combo finish that other decks simply can't beat.  Gifts can just play control, countering a few spells, Brainstorming and Scrolling, and then, as Nate Pease would say, EOTGiftsGG.  Bomberman, with its 12+ counterspells, can lock down the game as much as possible with counters and Trinket Maged 1-ofs until it just goes off.  Control Slaver is probably the only deck left that actually attempts to control the game absolutely.  This innovation of a combo-finish is relatively new; Slaver's design clearly has roots in Keeper's design, and Gifts has roots in Trix.  However, like later Keeper builds, even Slaver has a combo finish of a sort: a massive Will that blows the opponent out of the water.  Drain is not the problem; Brainstorm is not the problem (in fact, even more so than Force, it is the glue that holds Type 1 together); Force of Will is not the problem; the problem is the combo finish.  Now, clearly, Drain decks are not yet annihilating Vintage Magic as we know it, as mathematically demonstrated in this thread.  However, if you are frustrated with Drain decks, don't point towards the ancillary cards; point towards the undeniably broken kill.

Okay, i have several problems with this post:
First off, every drain deck out there have roots in keeper, even gifts....While Trix was probably the most successfull ComboControl, i'd still say that gifts has way more in common with keeper.

Also, you're pointing out all the combo kills, which i agree is the problem, but you're stating that banning will would stop them all, eventhough you also mention bomberman which usually dosn't even run the card!

/Zeus

[+t]

Also, you're pointing out all the combo kills, which i agree is the problem, but you're stating that banning will would stop them all, eventhough you also mention bomberman which usually dosn't even run the card!

/Zeus

Ok, I'm curious about your viewpoint.

You say that control decks with combo kills are the problem.  How far should we curb these combo kills?  Completly?  Enough so that pure control is viable in the internet metagame? 

Also, what should be done to curb these kills?  Your post seems to hint that banning Will isn't enough.  Do we then Restrict Salvagers?  Oath?  Dragon?  Oath? 

[Bubbydan]

No. It needs less "play drains or go home" in it. 

  So people play less drains, but than top eights have 75% FOWs in it.....will you be looking at FOW needing to be curtailed. Even if Brainstorm was restricted with it, a blue based control decks would still preform almost as well. Blue just has too much broken goodness.

 Think about the cards that go into almost all drain based decks. Ancestral, Time Walk, Tinker, Mystical Tutor, This is along with Mana Drain, FOW, and Brainstorm. 

  Dan

[dicemanx]

The % of times a card appears in top 8s is NOT a good criterion.

You need to ask two questions about such an often-played card:

1) is that card present in a dominating archetype?
2) Is the card too distortive and limits deck diversity?

If you do this, you might very quickly come to the conclusion that cards like Brainstorm, Fetchlands, or FoW actually help increase diversity because they enable certain strategies to be competitive, or put a limit on the effectiveness of other strategies and prevent their dominance. Therefore, it would be nonsensical to speak of their restriction. A similar argument could be made for Mana Drain, Workshops, Dark Ritual, and Bazaar of Baghdad - they create the diveristy in the format!

[zeus-online]

Also, you're pointing out all the combo kills, which i agree is the problem, but you're stating that banning will would stop them all, eventhough you also mention bomberman which usually dosn't even run the card!

/Zeus

Ok, I'm curious about your viewpoint.

You say that control decks with combo kills are the problem.  How far should we curb these combo kills?  Completly?  Enough so that pure control is viable in the internet metagame? 

Also, what should be done to curb these kills?  Your post seems to hint that banning Will isn't enough.  Do we then Restrict Salvagers?  Oath?  Dragon?  Oath? 

Actually, i wouldn't want to stop combo kills completely...just weaken them, and currently, the best way to weaken combo kills without killing them completely would be to ban will.
This would still allow for combo kills such as Salvagers/lotus, charbelcher, dragon combo etc. etc. But it would weaken the top of the crop such as Gifts and long.

I don't want combo out of the format, i just want it to be a turn or two slower...and the same goes for control decks with combo kills.

/Zeus

[Evenpence]

Man it just seems like shops are being completely dropped for Drains now.  So sad, really.  Like I stated before, it seems like there is about 4.5 - 6x as many people playing drains now as there are shops.  I guess a lot of the weaker the players are just scared of playing Stax now do to the ease of casting 3-4 storm and ETW and have just dropped it in favor of playing ETW themselves. 

Like me!

[yespuhyren]

Meh.  I honestly don't care anymore, I've pretty much given up on people innovating for workshops to myself and very few other individuals at the moment.  It's just sad to see such a cornerstone archetype left aside because decks like gifts are more forgiving, more broken, and far harder to hate.  If I didn't start playing and continue playing T1 because of shops, I'd probably just do the same thing as everyone else.  Play drains.  I mean, why wouldn't I.

Personally I wouldn't play bomberman, and it is NOT because it's a bad deck.  I just think a deck like Gifts or Dry Slaver has so much potential to be ridiculously broken, what with 3-4 gifts, FOF, etc.  Now that Drains has Warrens in addition to the fact that they were already busted, now its just over the top.  Its sad when Stax has to board at least 3-5 answers just to fight one card, one that is especially easy to cast and win with merely by playing it for storm 3-4.  Oh yeah.  And any deck that plays red can and should play warrens.

[diopter]

Meh.  I honestly don't care anymore, I've pretty much given up on people innovating for workshops to myself and very few other individuals at the moment.  It's just sad to see such a cornerstone archetype left aside because decks like gifts are more forgiving, more broken, and far harder to hate.  If I didn't start playing and continue playing T1 because of shops, I'd probably just do the same thing as everyone else.  Play drains.  I mean, why wouldn't I.

Personally I wouldn't play bomberman, and it is NOT because it's a bad deck.  I just think a deck like Gifts or Dry Slaver has so much potential to be ridiculously broken, what with 3-4 gifts, FOF, etc.  Now that Drains has Warrens in addition to the fact that they were already busted, now its just over the top.  Its sad when Stax has to board at least 3-5 answers just to fight one card, one that is especially easy to cast and win with merely by playing it for storm 3-4.  Oh yeah.  And any deck that plays red can and should play warrens.

I don't understand this attitude. Shop decks do not have some sort of intrinsic right to do well in Vintage. Neither do Drain decks. Vintage deck design has turned out so that Drain decks end up being more consistent than Shop decks. That's how these things go - either Drain > Shop or Shop > Drain in terms of consistency, and it so happens that Drain > Shop.

And, to add my own personal opinion to this, if Shop were more consistent than it is now, I would find Vintage quite unfun. I like getting to play my cards. Modern Drain decks may be consistent in getting their game plan online, but they don't have Mono-Blue-esque counter density, and you still get windows of opportunity to play your cards against those decks.

Although, to be perfectly honest, I find playing against Fish to be the most fun.
Fish > Drain > Shop/combo in terms of funness to play against

[Akuma]

And, to add my own personal opinion to this, if Shop were more consistent than it is now, I would find Vintage quite unfun. I like getting to play my cards.

It's this kind of thinking that is especially exasperating. If Shops are consistent, then Vintage is "unfun", but it's okay if Drains are consistent because I at least got to play my card. I guess if tapping your lands and putting your spell on the stack to be drained makes you think you participated then you are okay.

Shop decks do not have some sort of intrinsic right to do well in Vintage. Neither do Drain decks. Vintage deck design has turned out so that Drain decks end up being more consistent than Shop decks.

No strategy has an intrinsic right to succeed, but what about when a particular strategy receives a new powerful tool, we restrict it because of backward thinking. Shops don't have a right to dominate, and with Trinisphere, guess what, they DIDN'T dominate, they just received a new powerful tool to keep competing.

New tools present themselves for Drain decks (Gifts Ungiven, Empty the Warrens, etc.), and I think that is great. What if everyone started whining about how these new tools are "unfun", because it is certainly "unfun" to have Empty the Warrens resolve when you are playing Fish or Stax. Is Gifts "unfun" as well? Is it fun for you to pick from that Recoup, Black Lotus, Yawgmoth's Will, Time Walk pile?

I, personally, find all of this acceptable. Why should Shops lose Trinisphere? Why should GAT lose Gush? This "unfun" crap is the worst thing I have ever heard. Do you hear these lame arguements in other formats? Never. Pros solve problems, and if there truly is a problem, then it will be evident because all of the BEST players will be playing the problem deck or something that beats it. Then, and only then, should something be done by Wizards.

[yespuhyren]

I, personally, find all of this acceptable. Why should Shops lose Trinisphere? Why should GAT lose Gush? This "unfun" crap is the worst thing I have ever heard. Do you hear these lame arguements in other formats? Never. Pros solve problems, and if there truly is a problem, then it will be evident because all of the BEST players will be playing the problem deck or something that beats it. Then, and only then, should something be done by Wizards.

I couldn't have said this any better myself.

[yespuhyren]

Although, to be perfectly honest, I find playing against Fish to be the most fun.
Fish > Drain > Shop/combo in terms of funness to play against

And in order of things I would every play in tournament because I ENJOY playing WITH

Shop
-
-
Drain
Combo
-
Burn
Sui Black
-
Fish

[dicemanx]

This "unfun" crap is the worst thing I have ever heard. Do you hear these lame arguements in other formats? Never.

Huh? Every B/R decision ever made in every format was done with the intent to make things more fun. It is "unfun" when archetypes dominate, it is "unfun" when archetypes excessively distort, it is "unfun" when archetypes have the means to win too quickly and easily on turn 1.

As to whether they succeeded with their intent to make the T1 format more fun with the Trini restriction, or whether it was even necessary, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. However, from what transpired after restriction, I'd say it was a damn good decision as the floodgates opened when it came to deck diversity and innovation. True, whether it was because of the restriction or in spite of it, no one can say with certainty, but who cares?

That we're getting bottlenecked again as new dominant/distortive archetypes are coming to the forefront is an inevitability of a format that doesn't have much opportunity to change or evolve as very few Vintage worthy cards are printed. Slow as we are, we WILL eventually find the best strategies or archetypes and they will start pushing everything else out. Thus, we ultimately return to the B/R list to keep the format fresh - it seems now is the time again, as increasing numbers of players as apparently growing bored and dissatisfied with the current state of affairs.

[Yare]

I am curious as to how our discussion on the forum went from "these things should be taken off the B/R and everything else is ok for now" to "I am frustrated with this format."  Are people really this dissatisfied with the format?  I guess I was just under the impression that everything was fine right before the B/R announcement, and now 5 days later we seem to collectively be really upset.

[Moxlotus]

That we're getting bottlenecked again as new dominant/distortive archetypes are coming to the forefront is an inevitability of a format that doesn't have much opportunity to change or evolve as very few Vintage worthy cards are printed. Slow as we are, we WILL eventually find the best strategies or archetypes and they will start pushing everything else out. Thus, we ultimately return to the B/R list to keep the format fresh - it seems now is the time again, as increasing numbers of players as apparently growing bored and dissatisfied with the current state of affairs.

And any time a new deck can come to the forefront there will be a new deck to prey upon it.  I remember 2 summers ago when Stax was doing pretty damn well, Becker made IT to completely destroy a number of tournaments sporting the new top deck. 

There are always a number of players that get bored and dissatisfied with the format.  How many left once Keeper wasn't good?  Should we have done something about TNT to appease them?

Metagames can be solved most of the time.  This isn't always true and restrictions/bans are needed.  When we have every available card ever printed there is a very very high chance that we can always find a solution to the current metagame, it just takes a while with so many options.

The % of times a card appears in top 8s is NOT a good criterion.

You need to ask two questions about such an often-played card:

1) is that card present in a dominating archetype?
2) Is the card too distortive and limits deck diversity?

If you do this, you might very quickly come to the conclusion that cards like Brainstorm, Fetchlands, or FoW actually help increase diversity because they enable certain strategies to be competitive, or put a limit on the effectiveness of other strategies and prevent their dominance. Therefore, it would be nonsensical to speak of their restriction. A similar argument could be made for Mana Drain, Workshops, Dark Ritual, and Bazaar of Baghdad - they create the diveristy in the format!

I agree completely.  And I believe Will might diversity to the format.  Without Will Gifts and Long both kinda suck.  Fish takes a blow as the deck it is designed to beat takes a dive.  Stax isn't so hot anymore since the decks that will probably flourish in the no will metagame, Oath and Shop Aggro, compete.  So we lose Will and lose Gifts and Long in the process (they might be able to survive, but they will be significantly worse).  Oath and Shop Aggro get better.  I made an argument that may/may not be true with Stax and fish.  We didn't gain diversity--so why ban it?

[diopter]

And, to add my own personal opinion to this, if Shop were more consistent than it is now, I would find Vintage quite unfun. I like getting to play my cards.

It's this kind of thinking that is especially exasperating. If Shops are consistent, then Vintage is "unfun", but it's okay if Drains are consistent because I at least got to play my card. I guess if tapping your lands and putting your spell on the stack to be drained makes you think you participated then you are okay.

I said it was my own opinion, you don't have to share it. I get the impression that there are a number of Shop players who find playing against EtW-armed Drain decks unfun, and while I don't share that opinion, I get it and accept it.

[yespuhyren]

As do I.  I was arguing for "IF something needed to be restricted to hit blue control because it is doing to well"

I'm happy with the format and honestly don't care if it changes.  The only reason I'm disappointed is that blue control has become too strong for weaker shop players to continue playing it well, and many stronger shop players will not play them anymore either.  I'm worried about stifled innovation, not personal matches.

[Moxlotus]

As do I.  I was arguing for "IF something needed to be restricted to hit blue control because it is doing to well"

I'm happy with the format and honestly don't care if it changes.  The only reason I'm disappointed is that blue control has become too strong for weaker shop players to continue playing it well, and many stronger shop players will not play them anymore either.  I'm worried about stifled innovation, not personal matches.

Shops will be able to compete.  Vintage is cyclic.  In a tournament yesterday there was a ton of rituals.  Why?  Because there was 32 mana drains in the last top8 in the area.  Guess what made top 4?  Oath with INFINITE disruption and little draw, Suicide Black, Ravager, and a Gifts deck.  The top 8 had 2 more Shop aggro decks in it.  Out of the 36 players I believe only 5 people played Shops, but 3 of them made it.  The 2 that didn't make it were playing Stax.  The three Shop decks that made it were aggro!  I fully expect Shops to get 1 deck into the top8 maximum next time.  Vintage is cyclic and the metagame always adapts.

[yespuhyren]

I guess now its time for The Jester to come back into the spotlight then