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Author Topic: [Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays: Long Live Ichorid!  (Read 27603 times)
BreathWeapon
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« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2007, 12:22:30 am »

During game 2, Basking Rootwalla, Shield Sphere, and Ornithopter do not tap to play Pithing Needle, thus they get the axe.

-hq

The deck has 1 Strip Mine, 4 Petrified Field and 7 U/B Lands in the SB, I don't think that tapping for mana is a relevant argument against MD Basking Rootwalla; adding 4 more creatures,  power, turn 2 Cabal Therapys that don't conflict with Petrified Fields for Strip Mine seems superior to me.
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policehq
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« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2007, 12:48:03 am »

Okay, that is one reason not to play them.

If, in fact, the number of lands already used makes them a non-issue, and you can make the 11 card swap that is 7 U/B lands and 4 Pithing Needle without taking out Petrified Fields or Basking Rootwallas, by all means. I imagine the deck would play very poorly if you did, though.

Playing Mishra's Factory and/or Blinkmoth Nexus, though, plays a vital role in "pre-sideboarding," which has been an on and off discussion ever since Stephen took up the deck.

You can play Basking Rootwalla and side in 4 Pithing Needle and 4 lands, taking out the 4 Basking Rootwalla, or you can get the same Cabal Therapy/Dread Return effect and tap for Pithing Needle out of a man-land.

-hq
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Neonico
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« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2007, 09:05:02 am »

In this kind of manaless ichorid, Myr servitor has proven being far superior to basking rootwala, because rootwala, you got one in your opening + 2 cards and you got one Creature. as mentionned, Mishra/Nexus does the same, and is more synergic with the deck structure (With Feild, you have 8 way to get it). Myr, its 3-4 on turn 3, allowing some FB dread return + Therapy, even without having any shadow/Ichorid to return.

The list im going to play next sunday :
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    4 Petrified Field
    3 Mishra's Factory
    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    2 Sutured Ghoul
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    3 Phantasmagorian
    2 Dread Return
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Serum Powder
    2 Dragon Breath
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Unmask
    4 Myr Servitor
    4 Golgari Thug/Leyline of the void

Last 4 cards are either Thug or Leyline of the void, not sure what to play yet.

This is by far the most consistant deck to fight the graveyard hate or the bazaar hate (both really heavily played here in france, the deck scarying alot of people) even game 1.

A quick question to Smennen : I totally agree with your sideboard actually. But my question is : how to sideboard against the mirror ? As playing Phantasmagorian, is it a good solution to neddle bazaar (keeping the discard to play it on myself game 2 and 3) ? Do you side in the CoV ? I have alot of trouble to fight the ichorid decks playing the old mana version, sometimes playing Darkblast main.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2007, 09:10:19 am by Neonico » Logged
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« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2007, 09:57:21 pm »

Alright, this might be a stupid question, but I’m going to ask it anyway. Is Sutured Ghoul necessary? Oftentimes you can reanimate a grave troll to the same effect, and the only time it actually makes a difference is if they actually have creatures out on the table. Maybe in this world of EtW decks this is necessary, but maybe it could have some other card put it its place?
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policehq
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« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2007, 10:43:46 pm »

The Sutured Ghoul combos with Dragon Breath to get a win *this* turn, whereas Grave Troll has to wait until he's not going through summoning sickness.

There are other creatures that, against a lot of decks, give you an additional turn (Sundering Titan, Ancestor's Chosen, Petradon, Yosei, The Morning Star), so to answer your question: no, Sutured Ghoul is not necessary. However, Grave Troll is not the best option.

-hq
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Neonico
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« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2007, 05:12:01 am »

THe trample + Dragon breath effect garants a win whatever the board position is.
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Tobi
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« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2007, 05:46:09 am »

THe trample + Dragon breath effect garants a win whatever the board position is.

Not entirely true. --> Orb of Dreams, Propaganda, Forcefield, ...  Wink
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« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2007, 02:47:09 pm »

The Sutured Ghoul combos with Dragon Breath to get a win *this* turn, whereas Grave Troll has to wait until he's not going through summoning sickness.

Both have haste due to Dragon's Breath; you aren't going to be hardcasting Golgari Grave-Troll save in exceptional circumstances. I meant using Dread Return to bring him back; he's often just as big. I can see the trample being important; I was just wondering how many matchups it is important in.
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Tobi
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« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2007, 05:06:47 pm »

Dragon Breath does not attach to Golgari Grave Troll. Read it's text.
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« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2007, 05:05:34 am »

So a quick report from the tournament.
I did badly, not because of thedeck, which is definatly great and i think the best version actually aviable. But first, its not suited for a sanctionned environnement, and second, i had really bad luck all day long.
Round 1 and 2, all was ok against stompy and Belcher (I outraced balcher, thanx to chalice both game and needle game 2)
Round 3, paired against bomberman. Sketchy. Mull 2 into bazaar game 1, i would have won if i won the dice roll but loose because he got a Fow for my cabal on salvager. Game 2, mull to one, no bazaars nor serum the whole process. Ok guy, goldfish me please
round 4 : Mirror : He plays leyline maindeck so i loose game 1. Game 2 i beat him savagely, game 3, cant find a CoV in time
Round 5, my opponent killed me both games with MUD combo : Turn 1 shop/Metalworke (with a tormod's game 2)r. Turn 2 activate, staff GG. I dunno if i missplayed or not, but i needled tormods crypt ion game 2, after hesiting with staff because i didnt want to loose too much ressource to crypt, but my topdeck once i used bazaar is another needle. I think i should have bazaared anyway, see the second Needle and cast the first on staff and not tormod's. I drop

But im pretty sure the deck, in a proxy environnement, especially heavy drains.dec, is perfectly build including both phantasmagorian and Myr servitors. I won some games in tests, especially against aggro with Myr/Shadow beatdown. The deck really got alot of ressources. Phantasmagorian is key to accelrate the Cabal therapy, allowing to putt 3 creatures on your shadows to return them on turn 2 to cabal therapy, which is hard without.

The main concern actually is for me the speed you can cast cabal therapy, which cost me the games, mainly vs MUD. You cant really ccast a cabal therapy on turn 2 and its really a big problem. I think that the myr inclusion allows to remove 2 mishra factory and titan (and perhaps a 4th card) for some Udnerground sea Maindeck.
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meadbert
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« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2007, 11:10:32 am »

So how was Myr Servitor for you?  I am close to dropping it from my list because I run into so many Pithing Needles and I really want to find space for Phantasmagorian.  Still, I know when I switched to Servitor I thought it was a huge improvement.
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Neonico
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« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2007, 11:21:51 am »

Its a HUGE addition to the deck, i faced extirpate in 2 rounds and won both with myr servitor (once it scared opponent, and he extracted servitor to let me win on the spot) the other, he extirpated my ichorids and i won on turn 3 with them. Its also a good chumblocker and you can win the race against aggro with it. Really strong. Im really dissapointed to be unable to keep leyline inthe deck but its really a good solution and a really good inclusion MD.
I think that removing 2 mishra, titan and another card to include 4 underground maindeck and having only 3 lands and CoV/Leyline/Needle in the sideboard is the good way to go. Or even switching Titan/2 mishra/One other card to leyline Md and keep the lands side, but i think that black mana source are needed to accelerate the cabal therapy. Also, having 4 black sources MD + Feild possibly allows playing Ashen ghoul instead of Nether. i dont exactly knows, need to test a little bit more.

I did alot of games in testing with just 4 myr T3 to FB cabal and DR, no need ichorid nor shadow. Myr also is a creature, which is great to return Shadows. Myr is also a way to FB cabal on turn 2 and its really a huge play.

Phantasmagorian is absolutly THE NUTZ. Discarding one on the first bazaar activation with a shadow is definatly the best start you can have.

EDIT : THe list i played :
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    4 Petrified Field
    3 Mishra's Factory
    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    2 Sutured Ghoul
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    3 Phantasmagorian
    2 Dread Return
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Serum Powder
    2 Dragon Breath
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Unmask
    4 Myr Servitor
    3 Golgari Thug
    1 Sundering Titan
« Last Edit: April 02, 2007, 11:30:10 am by Neonico » Logged
meadbert
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« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2007, 09:54:35 pm »

I really want to find room for Phantasmagorian but I do not know what to cut.  I could certainly cut a Sundering Titan or Ancestor's Chosen.  I could possibly cut Dread Return but I am sort of attached to the third one now.

I could drop Leyline from 4 to 3 since multiples is rarely good.  Still, Leyline is just SO good.  According to my testing Ichorid and Gifts are the two best decks in the format right now and Leyline is great against both.  In certain metas I could see pulling it out but now is not the right time.

Regarding your list:
  I think you are discovering this, but you probably have too many lands.  Basically your third land drop does not happen so any game where you start with 3 lands in hand is pretty bad.  I once did the math and 10 total lands maximizes the chance of a two land hand.  If you believe that 3 lands is better than one then going to 11 and maybe 12 is okay.  Still, you are probably looking at having to discard lands a lot.

Golgari Thug is sort of at the bottom of the totem pole in game 1 since he is your worst dredger, you cannot hardcast him and you should never Dread Return him.  In games 2/3 he can be really good with Myr Servitor because you can simply dredge Thug, hardcast him and put a Servitor on top to get back many Servitors.  This is especially nice when you want to Dread Return post Extirpate.  Three might be just the right number.  I really missed Phantasmagorian at the last tournament, but Thug was golden for me in games two and three.
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Neonico
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« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2007, 05:46:58 am »

Played a lot of games in tests before the tournament and never had any probleme to find both Dread return and dragon fang and Ghoul, playing only 2 of them. I tested 3/3/2+titan and it was really too much.
I really agree that leyline is a must have. I also agree that mishra factory isnt needed if myr servitor is played. So 2 slots are 2 mishra. Titan is nice but perhaps a sideboard slot (i played ancestor's chosen SB, its nioce tech but ... titan is better) so its 3 slots.... I just need one more, which is possibly one thug, i feel that 10 dredgers is the good number.
If the tournament were tomorow, and considering the french meta (lots of extirpate, lots of mirror, dragon decks, few fish and gifts like decks) i would play :
    0-1 Strip Mine (Sideboard or main, i prefer having 2nd mishra for the extirpate matchup, dont know which is better in game 1, i never used stip mine in any game)
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    4 Petrified Field
    1-2 Mishra's Factory (depending on the strip mine)
    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    2 Sutured Ghoul
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    3 Phantasmagorian
    2 Dread Return
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Serum Powder
    2 Dragon Breath
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Unmask
    4 Myr Servitor
    2 Golgari Thug
    0 Sundering Titan (Sideboard, whith the ancestor chosen)
    4 Leyline of the Void
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meadbert
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« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2007, 10:51:42 am »

Very interesting list.  I like it a lot.  I may do something similar only:
-2 Dragon's Breath
-2 Sutured Ghoul
+ 1Titan
+1 Ancestor's Chosen
+2 Golgari Thug

Another issue is the sideboard.  At the last tournament I ran:
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Emerald Charm
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine

This works out pretty well in general.  After running Chain I fell in love with it.  Emerald Charm is never bad since it either removes Leyline or acts as Bazaar activation.

I am not sure I need to change the board at all but I did REALLY miss both artifact removal (for Needle) and Needle itself for Tormod's Crypt.  I should point out that Chain of Vapor is actually great for Needle removal.  Although Needle is easily replayed you still get two Bazaar activations which should in you the game.
You chain your opponents Needle at End of Turn.  Then you activate Bazaar.  Then during your upkeep you activaet again.  Incidently if you have an Emerald Charm in hand you can now Emerald Charm your Bazaar and get a third activation.  Anyway, Chain of Vapor is just totally amazing.

It appears that Leyline is not played much anymore. The only problem is the decks that do play it are other Ichorid decks and those decks have a nasty habit of making the top 8.  The mirror is actually important.  That is where Servitor, Enchantment Removal and Leylines really shine.

If I were to make chances I would want to add 2 Ancient Grudge, 2 Ray of Revelation, 2 Piithing Needle and 2 Rftstone Portal.  I could drop the Emerald Charms and Gemstone Mines and maybe a City of Brass.  Unfortunately this makes Chain of Vapor worse which is really bad.

Do you have any sideboard advice?
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Neonico
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« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2007, 04:05:52 am »

I played the standart smennen Sideboard but actually, i think that the ideal sideboard for my meta is :
1 Strip Mine/Mishra factory/Open slot (would be a land i think)
1 Ancestor Chosen
1 Sundering Titan
4 Underground sea
4 Stifle
4 Chain of Vapor
I feel that Stifle is a better weapon to fight both tormod's, wasteland and also the combo matchup.
Concerning the creature choice, i really love winning on the spot, i think that against belcher for example, if Turn 3 you can animate titan and not chosen, youll loose the game, no matter if you started or not. The drawback is the high count of slots the combo take. Its really hard to choose, both are valuable choices against top tier decks (Chosen is the NUTZ against fast EtW) but the goul can be a good security against random (do not forget we dont get proxy events here in france) So i dont know, i think ill keep ghoul maindeck and having both ancestor and titan SB.
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« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2007, 04:59:58 am »

A few questions on your recent developments, especially regarding the SB :

- Strip mine MD ou SB : I rarely played it and only when I couldn’t played a better land (BoB, Field of Factory). The few times I did, it was not relevant in the game. Is it very useful to run it at all ? Actually, I don‘t see the point in putting it in the SB. It's either in the MD or nothing.
- Ancestor’s Chosen : I see the interest against EtW. However, your choice is either Chosen, either the Ghoul/Titan. I would think it’s better to win on the spot (Ghoul) or disrupt (Titan). What is the advantage of Chosen over Ghoul to your mind ?
- Neonico : why do you feel that Stifle is really better than Needle ? The first drawback I see is that you need to wait and keep Stifle in hand (especially vs Crypt), but usually you have no hand left after T2. I would like very much to have your arguments for it

Finally, for Meadbert : 2 (Ghoul+Dragon Breath+Dread Return) is definitely the best option IMO.
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meadbert
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« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2007, 05:19:56 am »

Which win condition is better depends on whether you use Phantasmagorians and/or Myr Servitor.

In the last tournament I played in I was running Myr Servitor but no Phantasmagorians or Gigapedes.  This meant I dredged less than I used to so with a 2/2/2 configuration I was too likely to be missing one of the parts.  I opted for 3/3 instead.  The second problem was providing Ghoul with enough food.

If I were to drop Servitors for Phantasmagorians (which I have been considering) then that would provide Ghoul food and improve my dredging right there.  In that case I would definitely shift back to Sutured Ghoul.

Basically Phantasmagorian is better against Pithing Needle while Servitor is better against Extirpate.  I do not really have a sense of which is better overall yet.  Perhaps it is best to play both, but then I would have to drop Leyline and I do not like what that does to my combo and Gifts matchups.

I continue to find Strip Mine to be amazing.  The exercise I recommend is to play 10-20 games two fisted where you always start with Strip Mine in your hand.  Then consider whether it effective or not.

Basically, my opponents know that I play Ichorid so they start mulling to hate in game one.  This means my opponents keep a lot of four and five card hands that only have one land and a Pithing Needle.  If I Strip their lone land then they are in a world of pain even if the do open up with Pithing Needle on Bazaar on the play.
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« Reply #48 on: April 06, 2007, 05:44:28 am »

3 Phantas + 4 Myr seems to be very solid. You only need 10 dredgers (using Thug over Shell) and 10-11 lands. This way you are still able to run Leyline.

Neonico's list is very consistent, can play around Needle and TC very well, survive to Extirpate, while keeping a lot of disruptive elements against Gifts (CotV, Leyline, Unmask/Therapy). The deck is well balanced IMO. Ghoul is the best way to win so far (and the easiest).
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Neonico
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« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2007, 08:10:53 am »

After 3 days of intensive tests, preparing a tournament this sunday, i finally decided myself to drop entirelly the strip mine.
As Deathknight mentionned it, the deck is in this coufiguration very well balanced and able to recover nearly all the hate you can face. THe last point im not sure, to be really perfectionnist, is the second mishra vs 3rd Thug. Both are valuable choices, i think that 1 mishra 3 thug is the best actually.
I want to warn every one that all those choices are made to feet the French meta, not sure those choices are really the best for american meta.

Sideboard choices i tested this week :
5 lands (6 would definatly be better)
Ancestor's chosen (I wouldnt drop him at any cost, EtW is really a huge threat you need to consider)
Tian (could be the 6th UB land)
4 CoV (absolute Must have)
And 4 needle or stifle.

The choice between needle or stifle is really hard. Both adress 2 of the deck main problems : Wasteland/Crypt. Needle helps against MUD (Staff of dominaiton) while Stifle helps the combo matchup, which is the worst nightmare of the deck.
Considering that, and considering i need to fix the combo matchup, i would drop chosen for 6th land and stick with stifle (BtW, stifle also solve the EtW problem.) I discovered MUD (with Metalworker/Staff combo) to be a really hard matchup but i think that phantasmagorian helping for turn 2 cabal therapy is enough to handle the threat (sometimes, you have to be lucky :S)

Final Sideboard :
    2 Duress
    4 CoV
    4 Stifle
    5 UB lands

final Maindeck
    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    4 Petrified Field
    1 Mishra's Factory
    4 Ichorid
    4 Nether Shadow
    2 Sutured Ghoul
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    4 Stinkweed Imp
    3 Phantasmagorian
    2 Dread Return
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Serum Powder
    2 Dragon Breath
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Unmask
    4 Myr Servitor
    2 Golgari Thug
    4 Leyline of the Void
    1 Golgari Thug/Mishra's Factory
« Last Edit: April 06, 2007, 08:16:47 am by Neonico » Logged
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« Reply #50 on: April 06, 2007, 09:12:14 am »

I don't like phanta at all: with not exactly 3 cards in hand it's usless..gigapede would be better. And if you mull down to find bazaar or you play a combination of chalice/unmask you'll have very often less than 3 cards in hand. Obviously in an ideal situation it's a great card,it can speed up nether and therapy by a turn, or help you to by-pass needle. But i prefer cards that help me when i'm in danger. Yes gigapede is green,you can use it only during upkeep (doesn't affect shadow), but you can use it with only one or two cards in hand.
The # of dreggers is another issue i want to talk about: we have to maximize the number of dredgers to make our engine work. Another time...in an ideal situation we have 7 cards in hand,a bazaar and one or two dredgers. But how many times do you have to mull to 3 to find bazaar and start with no dredgers? Dredging 3 with a shambling shell in that situation is better than dredging zero with a phanta in your graveyard. Without dredgers phanta or gigapede are usless,as is a lonely myr servitor.
In my build i play with 14 dredgers (ful set of troll,imp and thug plus 2 shell) and 2 gigapedes and it's extremely solid.

For reference this is my list:

        4 Bazaar of Baghdad
        4 Mishra's Factory
        4 Petrified Field
        1 Strip Mine

        4 Chalice of the Void
        4 Cabal Therapy
        4 Unmask

        4 Serum Powder
        2 Dread Return
        1 Dragon Breath
        2 Sutured Ghoul
        1 Sundering Titan
        1 Simic Sky Swallower
       
        4 Nether Shadow
        4 Ichorid

        4 Golgari Grave-Troll
        4 Stinkweed Imp
        4 Golgari Thug
        2 Shambling Shell
        2 Gigapede
       
SB:  3 Underground River
SB:  4 Underground Sea
SB:  4 Pithing Needle
SB:  4 Chain of Vapor

This is smmenen list with -1 shell -1 lotus -1 dragon's breath +2 gigapede +1 simic sky swallower
In an heavy extirpate metagame i'll play the same list with -2 mishra - 2 gigapede + 4 myr servitor

I play simic over a 2nd breath to have a strong solution against decks with lot of stp,ith or stormscape apprentice. I think that 1 is the right number for breath if ghoul is not your only solution (i have titan and simic as B-plan). Simic or the second ghoul can be ancestor chosen in a combo/etw metagame.
SB is really amazing.
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« Reply #51 on: April 06, 2007, 06:04:21 pm »

there is something that gigapede cant go and phantasmagorian can do, in fact 2 things :
 - returning a nether shadow on turn 2
 - Being removed to return an ichorid.

Both are crucial for the second turn Cabal therapy. Without it, youll loose some games.
Thats why, as madbeart said, phantasmagorian seems to be the worst for goldfish and speed purpose. But its definatly the best for real life games.
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« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2007, 06:50:15 pm »

I always hated Phantasmagorian in theory and didn't put much time in to test with him, but I really like the flexibility he adds for activating Bazaar of Baghdad after flashback Cabal Therapy (sacrificing Nether Shadow) instead of during upkeep. So he brings back Nether Shadow turn 2 or any turn where you need to resolve another Cabal Therapy beyond the number of Ichorids you have.

That's not to say that these tricks always work. It seems to me that Phantasmagorian helps you when you are doing rather well, to do exceptionally, whereas Gigapede helps you while you are doing okay to do a little better.

-hq
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« Reply #53 on: April 10, 2007, 12:49:39 pm »

Maybe I'm overlooking something here, but what is the use of CoV exactly? The only valid target I can think of is LotV and hardly anything runs it these days. It doesn't stop Crypt and bouncing Needle only buys you 1 Bazaar activation. And you need to actually find a land to play it off. If you're so concerned about Leyline, Emerald charms seem to be much better alternatives. Not to mention that the UB manabase is susceptible to your own Titan.
On Phantasmagorian. I think he's quite solid due to his multi-purposedness. I never tried it in more than 2-of which I think is a good quantity. I will run him over Gigapede any day. I'd run him in Smmenen's list with 3 thug/3 shell/2 phanta and it works very well.
On resilience. Current manaless lists (assuming the same Smmenen's) seem to lack answers to random artifacts, crypt in particular, in game 1. I liked the idea of having access to ancient grudges in the cookie monster lists via a singleton riftstone portal md. Also, I think Leyline maindeck is very often an autowin in mirror as well as it often delays numerous decks for long enough to win even in suboptimal situations. So here's a list I think combines resilience and speed as well as gives more focused sideboarding strategy.

// Lands
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    3  Mishra's Factory (1)
    3  Petrified Field
    1  Riftstone Portal

// Creatures
    4  Ichorid
    4  Nether Shadow
    2  Sutured Ghoul
    4  Golgari Grave-Troll
    4  Stinkweed Imp
    2  Golgari Thug
    2  Shambling Shell
    1  Sundering Titan

// Spells
    2  Dragon Breath
    2  Dread Return
    4  Chalice of the Void
    4  Cabal Therapy
    4  Serum Powder
    4  Unmask
    4  Leyline of the Void
    2  Ancient Grudge

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Ancient Grudge
SB: 4  City of Brass
SB: 4  Children of Korlis  (tendrils tech)
SB: 4  Emerald Charm
SB: 1  Ancestor's Chosen (again, tendrils)

Sideboard options are such due to the broken long/tps topdecks when a single card can pretty much win them the game right here. In any case, that's my view on the state of the deck right now; comments are welcome.
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diopter
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« Reply #54 on: April 10, 2007, 01:50:26 pm »

Maybe I'm overlooking something here, but what is the use of CoV exactly? The only valid target I can think of is LotV and hardly anything runs it these days. It doesn't stop Crypt and bouncing Needle only buys you 1 Bazaar activation. And you need to actually find a land to play it off. If you're so concerned about Leyline, Emerald charms seem to be much better alternatives. Not to mention that the UB manabase is susceptible to your own Titan.

Chain solves Leyline.

Nothing solves Crypt save Krosan Grip/Wipe Away, but you can Chain it, forcing its activation early or returning it to your opponent's hand where it is vulnerable to your discard. and then continue Dredging.

Chain buys you 2 Bazaar activation against Needle if you play it EOT, and you can easily strip it from your opponent's hand with Therapy or Unmask.

The reason Chain of Vapor is better than any solution it solves multiple hate cards. It is versatile, and against an opponent with unknown hate, it is the best card you can board in.
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vroman
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« Reply #55 on: April 10, 2007, 03:29:36 pm »

thoughts about the new future sight land that dredges and taps for black?
the deck needs blue to play its ideal answer card chain vapor. and as far as casting needle, riftstone is faster. not sure it could be worth it esp since it cant hardcast therapy turn 1.
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ErkBek
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A strong play.

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« Reply #56 on: April 10, 2007, 03:47:02 pm »

thoughts about the new future sight land that dredges and taps for black?
the deck needs blue to play its ideal answer card chain vapor. and as far as casting needle, riftstone is faster. not sure it could be worth it esp since it cant hardcast therapy turn 1.

I had to look this up, not everyone follows the spoilers too closely....anyways

Dakmor Salvage
   
Land   U

Dakmor Salvage comes into play tapped.
{T}: Add {B} to your man pool.
Dredge 2 (If you would draw a card, instead you may put exactly two cards from the top of your library into your graveyard. If you do, return this card from your graveyard to your hand. Otherwise, draw a card.)
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meadbert
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« Reply #57 on: April 10, 2007, 04:15:29 pm »

The main reasons I want a purely black mana source are to recur Ashen Ghoul and hardcast Cabal Therapy.

Assuming you open with Bazaar, this cannot produce mana till at least turn 3.  What is interesting is that it can be used to recur an Ashen Ghoul on turn 3.

Anyway, it is somewhat bad for hardcasting Cabal Therapy, but as good as any other non Gemstone Caverns land at Recurring Ashen Ghoul.

Given that Ashen Ghoul is one of the best answers to Extirpate, this could be a decent card in the right build.

I could see going -4 Myr Servitor, -1 Mishra's Factory, +3 Ashen Ghoul, +2 of these.

EDIT: I meant Myr Servitor
Double EDIT:  2 Ashen Ghouls and 3 lands is better since you need to see the land on turn 2, but you do not need to see an Ashen Ghoul till turn 3.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 09:10:06 am by meadbert » Logged

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InfinityCircuit
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« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2007, 07:00:31 pm »

By -4 Extirpate do you mean -4 Shambling Shell?
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« Reply #59 on: April 11, 2007, 07:42:10 pm »

I personally don't play Ichorid often, but what do you generally board in/out to fight cards like Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle, et cetera?
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