[Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays: Long Live Ichorid!

[meadbert]

In general the best card to board in versus Tormod's Crypt is probably Pithing Needle.

Some folks use Stifle which is definitely a good card.

Ancient Grudge and Chain of Vapor can force early Crypt activations making them less useful.

For Pithing Needle Ancient Grudge and Chain of Vapor are the prefered weapons of choice.

The biggest concern is naturually Leyline of Void since unlike Tormod's Crypt it cannot be dealt with by using Chalice of the Void and Unmask.

To combat Leyline there are a number of options.  This include:
1: Emerald Charm (Also can function as an Uber Careful Study by untapping Bazaar)
2: Ray of Revelation (Great against Planar Void, but costs 2 which is too much for Leyline)
3: Quiet Purity and Frantic Purification
4: Chain of Vapor (Great for its flexibility)
5: Ignore your yard and play weenies.

[Namingway]

Stephen, with the introduction of the Future Sight cards Narcomoeba, Bridge from Below, and Street Wraith, what would you consider to be the "optimal" Ichorid list, and why?

[Smmenen]

I simply do not know at this point.    It's clear that Street Wrath is an auto include and Nacromoeba is begging for inclusion as well.    At this point there are more cards to include than we have room to include.   

I think the real danger is that people are going to cut out dredgers.  I still am of the view that an optimal Ichorid list requires *at least* 12 dredgers and probably 15-16.   With Street Wrath, we can probably remove the Shambling Shells.   Myr Servitor is something I always thought was a bad card to include, but Nacromoeba seems to obvious for words.   It supplements Nether Shadow and Ichorid so well.   It's going to require some serious work, math, and testing.   

[Namingway]

What do you think of Narcomoeba as a replacement for Nether Shadow? At least according to my (limited) testing, Narcomoeba is better than Shadow together with Bridge from Below, and if I play both 'Moeba and Shadow as well as Ichorid, it seems to become overkill, since then I often have 10+ creatures in play on turn 3. And Ichorid is IMO better than Shadow, since it is more likely that you'll be able to return an Ichorid on turn 2 than a Shadow (for Cabal Therapy-ing and putting Zombie tokens into play).
                                                                                                                                                     
Btw, I just had an insane goldfish with the new FS cards! Turn two win! Granted, I had double Bazaar, double Wraith, and a Grave-Troll in my opening hand, as well as some luck with dredging, but I got to fire off four Cabal Therapies before Dread Returning a 35/32 hasted Ghoul. That was fun!
My testing list, for reference (contains 14 dredgers):

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Petrified Field

2 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
2 Sutured Ghoul

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dragon Breath
2 Dread Return
4 Serum Powder
4 Unmask

[Neonico]

Like Smennen, I actually think that Ichorid can be cutt from the deck entirely. That or nether shadow, the goal is to have a 2nd turn Creature to flashback cabal and nothing else. After that, myr servitor + Narcomeba + Forest Creaure land/Dredge land + Mishra factory + Petrified feild + Nether shadow, i think we got enough to ensure a Turn 3 dread return with cabal backup. I plan on testing the Sword of the meek equipement too, which can be a good alternat road to victory. With Street wraith, the imperial seal/Vampiric tutor package becomes more powerfull, i need to test it too. That and more lands to putt in the deck can allows duress to support the disrupt.

There are 8 slots easily cuttable in your build, Bridges doesnt belong the vintage version of ichorid i think, and i thnk that the right dredgers number is 10-11. My actual testing llist is :
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Petrified Field
1 Dedge land
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
2 Sutured Ghoul
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dragon Breath
2 Dread Return
4 Serum Powder
4 Unmask

4 free slots, in my actual list, i still play leyline of the void

[meadbert]

Steve is right about the dredgers.  When optimizing Manaless Ichorid one question is to you work on improving your average games or do you work on improving your 50/50 games.

For instance Manaless Ichorid wins over 70% of the time in game 1.  My testing and tournament experience actually suggests a winning percentage over 80%.  What this means is that when you tune your main deck you are just looking to avoid your deck crapping out on itself.  In this case 14 dredgers is probably about right.

If instead you focus on improving your average game then we now require far more Dread Returns.  There are a few reasons.  The main reason is Bridge from Below.  There are now many situations where one Dread Return actually allows a second because Bridge completely replaces the lost creaturs or Bridge may even increase your creature count.
Also, it has become far more likely that you are going to be able to Dread Return on turn 2.  Because you have dredge far fewer cards by turn 2 you must run more Dread Returns and Dread Return targets to ensure you can Dread Return.  Also the Dread Return creatures must be rethought because many of the common choices are much worse on turn 2 than on turn 3 or 4.  Three examples are Sutured Ghoul, Sundering Titan and Ancestor's Chosen.  It is VERY difficult to get a lethal Ghoul on turn 2.  Sundering Titan is stuck hitting 0-2 lands on turn 2 instead of 2-4 lands on turn 3.  Ancestor's Chosen gains about 15 life instead of 35 life.  Of those I would say that Ancestor's Chosen is actually hurt the least.
I consider Ancestor's Chosen to be the Dread Return target of choice.  I think Sundering Titan is second best.

At the top of the list of potential turn 2 Dread Return targets is Mindslicer.  Mindtwisting an opponent's hand on turn 2 is poweful.  Also, because of Bridge from Below you can frequently sacrifice Mindslicer to Dread Return or Cabal Therapy.   For this reason Yosei, The Morning Star may deserve another look now.  Those Bridge tokens are 2/2 which is actually a pretty good size.  If you have two Bridges in the yard then you can sac Yosei and get more creatures and a Time Walk.  I may need to retest Yosei.  It used to be that Yosei left us open to a top decked Tormod's Crypt.  Now it is possible to pass the turn with 5 tokens in play so we still swing for 10 even if our opponent does top deck Tormod's Crypt.

I believe Unmask is now more important than ever due to the printing of Yixid Jailer.  I do not view dropping Unmask from the main deck as a viable strategy.

Also, now that Manaless Ichorid is this much better I believe that maindeck Leyline of the Void makes more sense then ever.  It will be important in fighting the mirror.

Petrified Field is now MUCH better than it was before.  The reason is that Fielding back Bazaar of Baghdad can lead to adding 3-8 more creatures on turn three.  This is huge and makes Fielding out Mishra's Factory just terrible.  Basically Petrified Field should always be used to get a Bazaar.  Factory is now just bad in the main deck.  Strip Mine is also probably suboptimal.  Although it is a great top deck it is hard for it to compete with Nether Shadow who may get the boot.

Nether Shadow has always been good, but now it is a bit slow.  Basically, Nether Shadow does nothing to help the turn 2 Dread Return because Shadow never comes out till turn 3 barring Baubles or help from your opponent.  On turn 3 Shadow gives you extra creatures but you should almost always have enough creatures on turn 3.  If you do not have enough creatures on turn 3 it is because you hit no dredgers.  For that reason Shambling Shell is actually better than Nether Shadow.  I suspect Nether Shadow should be dropped completely.

Right now I am running 4 Dread Returns and 4 Dread Return creatures, but I could easily drop a Dread Return creature to add a Shambling Shell.  As Steve mentioned it is a huge tempo loss to have no Dredgers on turn 1.  Every time you are forced to draw rather than dredge is bad.  Back when I ran Servitor there were a higher number of cards that were good to draw.  Now dredging Shell is just much better than drawing.

The problem is with only 3 Dread Return creatures you get a lot of situations where you can Dread Return on turn 2, but the best you can do is grab a 5/5 Golgari Grave-Troll.  Maybe a 5/5 Grave-Troll is pretty good and I should focus on consistency by adding Shells.  Another part of me feels like I want to do something broken on turn 2 like Mindtwist my opponent's hand with Mindslicer.  Anyway, that is up in the air right now.  I cannot decide between a token Mindslicer or a token Shambling Shell.

[Namingway]

What about Minion of the Wastes as a secondary Dread Return target? It isn't affected by a small graveyard, lets you keep your Ichorids for future returning (if need should arise), and hits pretty hard. Granted, you become very vulnerable to burn, but who plays burn in Vintage anyways?

EDIT: Also, you need to have an Ichorid or a Shadow in play too, since Minion only hits for 19. It may not be so good after all.

[Neonico]

I dont agree to give up the combo kill.
I dont agree too, as far as i tested, that 14 dredgers are needed. With th 11-12 dredgeers configuraiotn, with powder, youll allways get a dredger with your bazaar. In my testings for previous tournaments and during the 2 tourneys  i played, there is just one time i didnt get a dredger in my firts hand + 2.

On a side note, with street wraith and Phantasmagorian, you have 7 ways to have a turn 2 nether shadow so i think ill stick with them, as i allready said, the most important in this deck is to have a disrupt spell on turn 2.

Dropping leyline, my actual list is :
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
2 Dragon Breath
2 Dread Return
2 Sutured Ghoul
3 Nether Shadow
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Serum Powder
4 Unmask
4 Petrified Field
3 Bridge from Below

If i drop sutured ghoul for a more controlish creature to get back, i think that i can cutt dragon breath. I i do that, i think that 4 th phantasmagorian is the fits thing to get back in the deck, certainly with 4th golgari thug.
The deck is soooo tight now :S

[EKM_Ichorid]

I might drop Fields all together. With Bridge, you really don't need to Field a Wasted Bazaar. Once you return an Ichorid, you can end up with 1-2 tokens so you can go off next turn. It's really almost the same speed, with more room for consistantcy.

I think I'm cutting:

4 Leyline the Void
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Petrified Field
1 Strip Mine
3 Shambling Shell
1 Sutured Ghoul


I think I'm adding:
1 Dredge Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Street Wraith
4 Nacromoeba

With Ichorid, Shadow, Nacro and Bridge I can quickely setup a Dread. However, I'm not sure if I should keep Sutured. I can Dread in a Sundering first, then a Sutured second. The Sutured isn't absolutely neccessary, I suppose. I kind of want to keep the Breaths in so I can attack immediately.

[Vegeta2711]

Ichorid is now the stupidest deck in Vintage. The post-FS builds are going to win or deplete all of the opponents hand + have a ton of men on turn 2 a huge proportion of the time. Like yeah the deck is still vulnerable to grave-hate and rolls to Leyline worse than ever, but it seriously looks like it'll cause a HUGE distortion in how the format plays out if the limited testing / goldfishing so far is accurate.

obviously this is assuming the spoiler cards are accurate.

[desolutionist]

Ichorid is now the stupidest deck in Vintage. The post-FS builds are going to win or deplete all of the opponents hand + have a ton of men on turn 2 a huge proportion of the time. Like yeah the deck is still vulnerable to grave-hate and rolls to Leyline worse than ever, but it seriously looks like it'll cause a HUGE distortion in how the format plays out if the limited testing / goldfishing so far is accurate.

obviously this is assuming the spoiler cards are accurate.

Bridge from Below and  Nacromoeba actually add a element of invulnerability to Crypt (assuming the Ichorid deck has a few turns before its activated) and the capability to recover too quickly.  Leyline still > Ichorid

[policehq]

So after Future Sight is released, sideboards will have 4 Serum Powder, 4 Leyline of the Void to have the same chances for a mulligan into it as we have with Bazaar of Baghdad? Nice.

I actually think the strongest advantage Narcomoeba and Bridge from Below provide is allowing you to play mana.

-hq

[Vegeta2711]

So after Future Sight is released, sideboards will have 4 Serum Powder, 4 Leyline of the Void to have the same chances for a mulligan into it as we have with Bazaar of Baghdad? Nice.

I actually think the strongest advantage Narcomoeba and Bridge from Below provide is allowing you to play mana.

-hq

I think the question will end up being, why play mana if you win on turn 2 eighty or more percent of the time? Are running a few answers to leyline worth damaging the overall deck structure, dun kno. 

[yespuhyren]

Bridge is good, but if opponent plays any weenie that dies in some way or another like a blocker there goes all of your Bridges.

[policehq]

I think the question will end up being, why play mana if you win on turn 2 eighty or more percent of the time? Are running a few answers to leyline worth damaging the overall deck structure, dun kno. 

So you think the metagame will be willing to put up with that mindless, consistent win?

-hq

[Vegeta2711]

Of course not everyone will. Some people will distort their decks heavily to wreck the deck. Think of Affinity, but with better hosers. My main point is that even if they do, the metagame is wrecked because there's no point in playing anything except Ichorid or devoting 8-12 slots to winning the match. And even then, this is assuming people don't figure out ways around it via mana Ichorid or other ways.

Bridge is good, but if opponent plays any weenie that dies in some way or another like a blocker there goes all of your Bridges.

Dude, who cares? You won't be attacking before you get to activate the Bridges anyway. If people want to play Bloodfire Dwarf or some shit like that, let them.

[nataz]

I think 80% win for anything other then a goldfish may be a bit strong. Also, no scans yet of bridge, something could be off from the spoiler.

plus, you still have to take into account mulligans.

[mox apricot]

   Someone mentioned not being sure about sutured. I’ve already been play testing a build w/ necroameaba(which triggers immediately) and the additional stats/extra draw of street wraith, getting lethal ghoul happens consistently turn 2, I think it can race the crypt easily with unmask, it nothing else I have a play sundering titan as well, the extra target in occasionally needed.
   Any advice on boarding for second game, particularly v.s. leyline
right now the list is something like the following:

4 bazaar
4 grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
4 thug
4 cabal therapy
4 unmask
4 nether shadow
4 ichorid
4 necroameaba
4 serum powder
4 street wraith
chalice of the void
3 shambling shell
3 dread return
2 sutured ghoul
2 dragon breath
1 sundering titan
1 phantasmagorian

the thing that probably sticks out immediately is the 3 dread returns, play testing proves it’s needed for a consistent turn 2 bomb

right now my board plan for leyline is
-4 thugs
-1 dread return
-4 unmask
-1 phantasmagorian
-1 chalice (although I really am not liking this)

+7mana sources
+4 chain of vapor

[ErkBek]

I think I found a card that could enable a fairly consistent turn 2 kill.

3U - Cephalid Sage
Creature - Cephalid 2/3
Threshold - When Cephalid Sage comes into play, draw three cards, then discard two cards from your hand. (You have threshold if seven or more cards are in your graveyard.)

Basically, you dread return this guy into play and dredge a 15ish more cards, hopefully into another dread returns. I think I'd play 3 or 4 of this in place of fields since they both give you lots of game vs. wasteland.

If you were to run this guy, I'd be tempted to go with a super combo build, something like

The engine 8
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder

Dredgers 14
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell

Men 12
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid

Disruption 8
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy

Extra Draw to speed up the kill 9
4 Street Wraith
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Urza's Bauble

Combo kill 9
4 Dread Return
3 Cephalid Sage
2 Flame Kin Zealot

The board would probably look like Bert's.

So the idea behind this build is simply to kill turn 2. You don't need unmask anymore because you are so freaking fast. Maybe this build doesn't need all the extra draw and leylines should get back into the deck. Thought's on this build?

[Vegeta2711]

Seems silly to cut Nether Shadow when the deck is already a consistent turn 2 kill w/ them. I could see the point if you were running more disruption than the normal builds, but you're actually running less.

Edit: sorry, meant Nether Shadow in original post. basic idea is still 'why cut disruption when you can run 12-16 and still have a consistent turn 2 win?'

[mox apricot]

bridge from below.
i don't think its a very stong card in ichorid, you have to dreadge it over initialy, and it won't do anyhting unitill there is an ichoird in play, attacking with ichorid could remove bridge befor you can use it, and it doesn't help against the hate...i  could see htis being of use in osme sort of friggorid build though

[diopter]

bridge from below.
i don't think its a very stong card in ichorid, you have to dreadge it over initialy, and it won't do anyhting unitill there is an ichoird in play, attacking with ichorid could remove bridge befor you can use it, and it doesn't help against the hate...i  could see htis being of use in osme sort of friggorid build though

Bridge has incredible synergy with Narcomoeba.

[EKM_Ichorid]

IchoridWins2007

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Street Wraith
4 Unmask
3 Dread Return
3 Cephalid Sage
2 Sutured Ghoul
2 Dragon Breath

That's what I'm running.

[ErkBek]

IchoridWins2007

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Street Wraith
4 Unmask
3 Dread Return
3 Cephalid Sage
2 Sutured Ghoul
2 Dragon Breath

That's what I'm running.

Is the ghoul kill better than Flame-Kin? Doesn't the flame-kin kill work just as well, but without using up 2 extra spaces? or are you finding that you can't always get enough men into play?

Also, I really think you should probably be running 4 dread returns. The deck isn't built around ichorid anymore, it's dread return combo.

[EKM_Ichorid]

IchoridWins2007

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Street Wraith
4 Unmask
3 Dread Return
3 Cephalid Sage
2 Sutured Ghoul
2 Dragon Breath

That's what I'm running.

Is the ghoul kill better than Flame-Kin? Doesn't the flame-kin kill work just as well, but without using up 2 extra spaces? or are you finding that you can't always get enough men into play?

Also, I really think you should probably be running 4 dread returns. The deck isn't built around ichorid anymore, it's dread return combo.

I can use Sutured for many things, and I don't keel over to an Echoing Truth, so I like this version. Plus there has been a slight man problem a few times.

I'd love to fit in a 4th Dread.

[Aardshark]

Apparently I missed the memo on Cephalid Sage.  Can someone explain its inclusion?

Is the idea is for an early t2 dread return off Narcomoeba to reanimate Sage, milling up to 18 more cards?  It doesn't seem this would be that easy to pull off or that "wasting" 3 creatures turn 2 (when you may not have bridge) for 18 cards would be that great an idea.  Obviously I'm missing something.

Is the Sage's inclusion x3 non-controversial at this point?

[g0tenks00]

I don't quite follow the inclusion of phantasmagorian in some of the lists on this thread. Is this card being included solely to feed sutured ghoul? What are the other benefits of including phantasmagorian besides recursion and food for sutured ghoul?

[Neonico]

@Gotenk :
I tested alot all the last version posted and i aggre on some choices. Cephalid sage to dread return is really a huge boost for the combo for goldfishing purpose.
But cutting 2 cards : Phantasmagorian and/or petrified feild seems to be a problem for me. In my meta, fish is played alot, meaning alot of Strip/Waste in my aera. I think we shouldnt cutt all the way to discard beside bazaar. Thats why i stick with phantasmagorian. With the addition of Street wraith, i even feel that on the draw, discarding a Phantasmagorian with 8 cards in hand is a good way to get your engine strating without bazaar. Its also a really good way to bring back nether shadow on turn 2, discarding more creatures to get the 3 needed, and its really important to have a Disrupt spell on turn 2, so the more way you got to do it the better.

This adress a point made by kobefan : Dread returnin Cephalid sage isnt, IMO a way to fight wasteland. How do you get a way to keep 3 creatures and a dread returning coming in your graveyard when you get a 1st turn wasteland ? Try to goldfish your deck with a turn one wasteland, its allmost impossible to win before turn 3, and even 4 often.

A side note : I noticed that Crypt is less a problem, at least maindeck, Considering the speed of the kill, what about cutting chalice, at least from the maindeck, to include the blue pact ? THe idea is just to have another way to fight Counter versus your dread return.

EDIT : another issue to totally cutt the petrified feild... Youre now unable to Dread Return against stax playing a turn 1 SoR.
I used feild alot for this in tests and tournaments i did and im not sur that narcomeba/Ichorid beatdown is a good enough clock against stax Preboard.

[EKM_Ichorid]

@Gotenk :
I tested alot all the last version posted and i aggre on some choices. Cephalid sage to dread return is really a huge boost for the combo for goldfishing purpose.
But cutting 2 cards : Phantasmagorian and/or petrified feild seems to be a problem for me. In my meta, fish is played alot, meaning alot of Strip/Waste in my aera. I think we shouldnt cutt all the way to discard beside bazaar. Thats why i stick with phantasmagorian. With the addition of Street wraith, i even feel that on the draw, discarding a Phantasmagorian with 8 cards in hand is a good way to get your engine strating without bazaar. Its also a really good way to bring back nether shadow on turn 2, discarding more creatures to get the 3 needed, and its really important to have a Disrupt spell on turn 2, so the more way you got to do it the better.

This adress a point made by kobefan : Dread returnin Cephalid sage isnt, IMO a way to fight wasteland. How do you get a way to keep 3 creatures and a dread returning coming in your graveyard when you get a 1st turn wasteland ? Try to goldfish your deck with a turn one wasteland, its allmost impossible to win before turn 3, and even 4 often.

A side note : I noticed that Crypt is less a problem, at least maindeck, Considering the speed of the kill, what about cutting chalice, at least from the maindeck, to include the blue pact ? THe idea is just to have another way to fight Counter versus your dread return.

EDIT : another issue to totally cutt the petrified feild... Youre now unable to Dread Return against stax playing a turn 1 SoR.
I used feild alot for this in tests and tournaments i did and im not sur that narcomeba/Ichorid beatdown is a good enough clock against stax Preboard.

Maybe 1x Drege Land should be included?

[wethepeople]

With the release of Future Sight, several new cards (Bridge, Moeba, S.Wraith) are going to cause Ichorid to become a much stronger contendor in the format. This, in addition to it's inexpensive cost, will cause more and more people to play the deck. I personally will try to run four Leylines main to win me all those games that I am bound to come across post-FS.

What have people been doing for sideboards lately? Lists are of course going to change drastically, so the SB will most likely need to also. I'd imagine that four Leylines are going to return to sideboards once Ichorid gets popular again, so we may need to use Chain of Vapor, Emerald Charm, et cetera.