[Premium Article] So Many Insane Plays: Long Live Ichorid!

[Namingway]

If Ichorid is going to get more popular, what about cutting Chalice for Leyline? It helps your combo matchup as well, which is one of the few things you really have a problem with, pre-board. Also, Chalice doesn't do very much in the mirror match. On the other hand, neither does Unmask, so the question would then be if Chalice is better than Unmask. Personally, I think Unmask is better.

[wethepeople]

If Ichorid is going to get more popular, what about cutting Chalice for Leyline? It helps your combo matchup as well, which is one of the few things you really have a problem with, pre-board. Also, Chalice doesn't do very much in the mirror match. On the other hand, neither does Unmask, so the question would then be if Chalice is better than Unmask. Personally, I think Unmask is better.

After testing lists with all these new cards, it's for certain that Ichorid can outrace many of the Combo decks today. However, with the release of Pact of Negation, there will also be a rise in faster, but more fragile Combo-decks that can win before you can. Unmask is a card that would win you games in those matchups, so that also may still be a necessary card in the list.

It is too early to decide, though.

[mox apricot]

Personally, I feel chalice for 0 is pretty good against combo. Both leyline and chalice eliminate one way to build up storm count. There are more ways to bounce the chalice. However, chalice hits the mana base harder. If you’re on the play I’d stick with chalice, it beats crypt in addition to hitting the mana base, if I’m on the draw, i might think more about beating the hate then hating out combo.
What are people boarding now a days anyways?

Anyone ever think about cutting dread return/ghoul/breath out of ichorid and main decking pithing needle, mana sources and chain of vapor?
It’d be harder to slow down and hate out

[oldbsturgeon]

well right now i have cut chalice out of the deck to keep in a few fields plus all the other goodies too.
here is my list as of today.
4 bazaar
4 powder
3 field
4 troll
4 imp
4 thug
2 shell
4 ichorid
4 moeba
3 shadow
4 bridge
4 wraith
4 therapy
4 unmask
4 return
2 zealot
2 sage
what i have found out is against fish the games were a bit slower and i really wanted a field to keep a bazaar in play. if i can get 2 bazaar dredges off in the game i can usually win against them.
also keep in mind that fish runs daze and without a field you cant pay the cost.
sure you can just fire off another therapy but its not cool to waste.
now one thing i found out is that spiketail hatchling is awesome against the deck, basically cutting you off from bridge tokens and stopping a return or therapy.
in fact r/u fish probably has an awesome game against the deck, and could be even better than the version i have to test against.
with fire/ice, hatchling, daze, lavamancer, it really makes the match harder if you plan to win via zealot.

[sorcutt]

I think I found a card that could enable a fairly consistent turn 2 kill.

3U - Cephalid Sage
Creature - Cephalid 2/3
Threshold - When Cephalid Sage comes into play, draw three cards, then discard two cards from your hand. (You have threshold if seven or more cards are in your graveyard.)

Basically, you dread return this guy into play and dredge a 15ish more cards, hopefully into another dread returns. I think I'd play 3 or 4 of this in place of fields since they both give you lots of game vs. wasteland.

If you were to run this guy, I'd be tempted to go with a super combo build, something like

The engine 8
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder

Dredgers 14
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
2 Shambling Shell

Men 12
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid

Disruption 8
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy

Extra Draw to speed up the kill 9
4 Street Wraith
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Urza's Bauble

Combo kill 9
4 Dread Return
3 Cephalid Sage
2 Flame Kin Zealot

The board would probably look like Bert's.

So the idea behind this build is simply to kill turn 2. You don't need unmask anymore because you are so freaking fast. Maybe this build doesn't need all the extra draw and leylines should get back into the deck. Thought's on this build?

I like the direction you're taking with the deck. Personally I think that Leyline should replace Chalice. My reasoning is threefold: first off, Ichorid is going to be showing up in much greater frequency and running Leyline main is almost sure victory game 1 in the mirror (if you have it in hand that is). Secondly, Chalice doesn't hit that many critical targets. The only thing that it's really concerned about targeting is Tormod's Crypt. And additionally, Chalice is easily hated out and doesn't severly impact one's mana base.

Flame-Kin Zealot is definitely the kill of choice because it's synergy with Bridge from Below/Cabal Therapy is just amazing. Conserving 2 slots is a bonus too! I find that in order to achieve a sure victory (aka weeding out an opponent's hand with Therapy) it's often best to wait until turn 3. Did you have the same issues?

Also, Sage is definitely a useful tool in some games but a majority of the time he felt like overkill. I'm still trying to figure out if he's really that much better than the Petrified Fields.

[wethepeople]

Anyone ever think about cutting dread return/ghoul/breath out of ichorid and main decking pithing needle, mana sources and chain of vapor?
It’d be harder to slow down and hate out

The problem with that is that you have no use for Needle, CoV, et cetera game one, because your opponent does not yet have access to them. Waiting until game two is best, because thats where Voids, Crypts, and Needles come in.

People are most-likely going to start using four Leylines in the board solely for Ichorid, so my board will probably just use the following:

4 Gemstone Caverns
3 Gemstone Mines
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Emerald Charm

I myself am not too worried about Tormod's Crypt, because you still can win after your opponent activates it. Pithing Needle also has become less of a problem, because of the additional draw available.

[policehq]

Cephalid Sage makes you do extremely well unhated, Petrified Field lets you recover when your opponent's hate resolves. He is definitely overkill if you wait until turn 3 and have an unmolested Bazaar of Baghdad.

I'm not sure if I posted that Unmask > Leyline of the Void on this forum or StarCityGames, but when I said that, I was not taking into account that most of the decks being discussed are post Future Sight, which will make Leyline of the Void superior.

-hq

[mox apricot]

Pithing Needles can always be used to neutralize things like welder and salvager.
I also used to run a friggorid type build running ground seal when extripate was new.  The extra dredge was nice.
Bridge From Below has proven amazing against the hate, but I've encounted problems with welder still.  "Multiple cryptings and the trisk/duplicant exchange (which i believe takes care of bridge as well)" is a sentence fragment because it does not contain a verb.

This post constitutes the latest in a protracted series of violations of Rule 1, Deficient Writing Skills that appear in your posting history.  If you can't be bothered to make legible and comprehensible statements, you shouldn't be posting to the TMD forums.  Based on your prior rules infractions, this post merits a Full Warning.  Please review the site rules before you post again.  If you have any questions, feel free to contact a moderator.  -DA   

[Neonico]

Unless he got a first turn Welder + Crypt and an another artefact, the deck is bascily really too fast for slaver in the actual way its built. Dupplicant plan need a fast Thirst for knowledge AND welder (in one turn on the draw, 2 turns on the play) which isnt easy to accomplish (it happens but .... its really difficult)
As far as i tested with Pre FS and post FS long, Ichoprid totally outrace it. Chalice became totaly useless game 1 considering the speed of the deck.

My main concern actually is the fish (and basiclly everything with wasteland) matchup. That's why my actual list didnt cutt phantasmagorian, wich can allow some nice starts without bazaars (You can acheive turn 3 kills without bazaar, which is really cool)

I did allmost 50 games with both kills : Zealot and Sutured goul. I noticed that its hard to get 10 creatures on turn 2, while i didnt get any problem to kill on turn 2 with a lethal goul.
In those 100 games, especially with gouls, Cephalid sage has been usefull only once.... Because the goul was only 18/x and there were 2 (x/1 and x/2) creatures in my opponents side.

After more testing against fish likes (Considering we both dont know what opponnent get) i confirm that phantasmagorian is great in the matchup. Testing without any way to discard again dredgers, I lost alot when bazaar got first turn Wastelanded. Petrified feil and/or phantasmagorian are still needed somewhere between main and side.

Last notes :
My last testing list is :
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Street Wraith
4 Unmask
4 Dread Return
3 Cephalid Sage
2 Sutured Ghoul
2 Dragon Breath
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Nether Shadow

With possibly -1 nether - 2 dragon Breath -2 Sutured Ghoul -1 Dread Return for +2 Zealot +4 Leyline of the void.
My actual testing sideboard includes : 4 Chain of Vapor 4 Gemstone Cavern 2 Gemstone Mine
and the last slot could be petrified feild to fight wasteland, or needle, or chalice of the void, depending on the metagame.

I actually confirm that with Street Wraith, Nether shadow is great and should not been cutt. Its even better with both Phantasmagorian and Street wraith, allowing alot more some T2 returns we didnt often get in the previous lists.

[sorcutt]

I did allmost 50 games with both kills : Zealot and Sutured goul. I noticed that its hard to get 10 creatures on turn 2, while i didnt get any problem to kill on turn 2 with a lethal goul.
In those 100 games, especially with gouls, Cephalid sage has been usefull only once.... Because the goul was only 18/x and there were 2 (x/1 and x/2) creatures in my opponents side.

After more testing against fish likes (Considering we both dont know what opponnent get) i confirm that phantasmagorian is great in the matchup. Testing without any way to discard again dredgers, I lost alot when bazaar got first turn Wastelanded. Petrified feil and/or phantasmagorian are still needed somewhere between main and side.


With possibly -1 nether - 2 dragon Breath -2 Sutured Ghoul -1 Dread Return for +2 Zealot +4 Leyline of the void.
My actual testing sideboard includes : 4 Chain of Vapor 4 Gemstone Cavern 2 Gemstone Mine
and the last slot could be petrified feild to fight wasteland, or needle, or chalice of the void, depending on the metagame.

I actually confirm that with Street Wraith, Nether shadow is great and should not been cutt. Its even better with both Phantasmagorian and Street wraith, allowing alot more some T2 returns we didnt often get in the previous lists.

After a lot of testing I determined that I was having trouble getting the men up on turn 2 with Zealot to go lethal.  I retract what I said earlier about Zealot.  He's a more space efficient kill but he's not as reliable as Sutured Ghoul.

I'm not sold on Phantasmagorian's relevance in this deck still.  He seems to only be a good substitute for Bazaar if he's in your opening hand, you're on the draw, and both those elements are constituent on the fact that your opponent isn't holding a first turn Unmask/Duress which would bring your hand down before you could discard him (if you're on the draw).  Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that seem pretty freakin' situational?

Nether Shadow should still be run in the deck.  Yes, he's slower than dirt (rarely ever getting out before turn 3) but the deck sometimes has a hard time making the necessary 3 creatures to sacrifice to Dread Return.

Additional notes: Leyline > Unmask dependent on your metagame. Also, I find a minimum of 13-14 dredgers to be the correct number to run in the updated Ichorid.

[Titanium Dragon]

I've been screwing around with adapting the deck to a post FS environment, and what I've built so far is:

// Lands
    4  Petrified Field
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad

// Creatures
    2  Sutured Ghoul
    4  Stinkweed Imp
    4  Golgari Thug
    4  Golgari Grave-Troll
    4  Ichorid
    3  Nether Shadow
    4  Street Wraith
    4  Narcomoeba

// Spells
    4  Serum Powder
    4  Chalice of the Void
    4  Unmask
    2  Dragon Breath
    2  Dread Return
    4  Cabal Therapy
    3  Bridge from Below

The sideboard is TBA.

This build has a number of advantages over old ichorid builds; Narcomoeba and Street Wraith are both insane. Bazaar + Street Wraith is an automatic turn 3 win, and often a turn 2 win. Narcomoeba allows you pull out a lot more disruption on turn 2, with easy access to cabal therapy and sometimes enabling turn 1 therapy if you get lucky (again, Bazaar + Street Wraith). Narcomoeba also enables turn 2 wins, which this deck pulls out about 15% of the time, with a therapy for Will and sometimes two therapies or a therapy and Unmask for backup.

Bridge from Below is also important; one Bridge in your graveyard means that Cabal Therapy turns your 1/1 into a 2/2, and two means you're actually doubling your number of creatures. This can be important, especially if they pith Bazaar; Zombie momentum can overwhelm your opponent, and sometimes you'll be in situations where you have a dozen zombies in play and even if they counter your Dread Return, you still win.

The disruption is very heavy with this deck, but it is vulnerable to pithing needle on the play. The sideboard as it currently stands is geared for fighting Needle and Leyline via bounce.

The biggest problem is that the bridges are really pushing it; while they're highly effective at speeding up the deck and building momentum, and making it easier to get a clock out even under needle, they're absolutely worthless if you get pithed on the draw, and they took out a bit of disruption (mana, mostly - no lotus and no strip mine). Even so, you win on turn 3 with considerable backup, so the only real danger is fast disruption in the form of a turn 1 Tcrypt or needle, or turn 0 Leyline - if its sitting around in their hand, it is going to get therapied most likely.

As an aside, I think 4 bridges is too much, simply because you don't need them for the kill and three bridges sometimes gives you twenty guys on turn 3 anyway. It seems like the slot is better used elsewhere.

[sorcutt]

I could use a hand in creating a viable sideboard, post Future Sight release.  As of now I'm running 4x Unmask maindeck and I'd like to keep the graveyard hate in the sideboard.

My current board looks like this:

4x Gemstone Caverns
2x City of Brass
3x Emerald Charm
3x Chain of Vapor
3x Leyline of the Void

I hate running Leyline as a 3x but there just doesn't seem to be room for it otherwise. I'd like to include Putrid Imp because he seems like he would give the deck a good alternate kill but alas, space is an issue. Any suggestions?

[Smmenen]

So, I completed my final round of testing tonight.   I don't want to tease you all, but I'm really excited about this deck.   With the exception of one deck, everything I've thrown this up against just absolutely crumbles. 

On the other hand, figuring the best list was not easy.    I can't wait to show you what I've settled on (with some help of teammates)!

[diopter]

So, I completed my final round of testing tonight.   I don't want to tease you all, but I'm really excited about this deck.   With the exception of one deck, everything I've thrown this up against just absolutely crumbles. 

On the other hand, figuring the best list was not easy.    I can't wait to show you what I've settled on (with some help of teammates)!

If I may ask Steve, what is the one exception? I would imagine it is Belcher? Long probably goes 50-50 because Ichorid is now a turn 2 deck.

[RichardBrianWade]

So, I completed my final round of testing tonight.   I don't want to tease you all, but I'm really excited about this deck.   With the exception of one deck, everything I've thrown this up against just absolutely crumbles. 

On the other hand, figuring the best list was not easy.    I can't wait to show you what I've settled on (with some help of teammates)!

Oh, that's just plain mean.

[Jacob Orlove]

The article will be up Monday, and the list won't be premium.

Also, welcome to TMD! Our forum rules are here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=18027.0
In the future, please make sure your posts have more content.

Steve: this applies to you too. I'd like to see this thread stay on topic, and not devolve into side discussions. You can talk about the article when it comes out, or mention it as an aside in more substantive posts, but posting just to announce that there will be something cool to see in a few days only leads to the posts that I have to reprimand for spam.

So, everyone, let's get back on topic and stay there.

[XdeckX]

I must admit that prior to Future Sight I wasn't that amazed with Ichorid but the addition of Bridge from Below and Narcomoeba makes this pile pretty insane.
I've been tweaking my list for a couple of days and my question is this: is the addition of Ichorid still usefull? Ususally (when goldfishing without an opponent) ichorid comes down turn 2 (if discarded of the first bazaar activation) or turn 3 (which happens way more often)
The kill usually happens at turn 3 now so is Ichorid still worth running? On the other hand removing the Ichorids makes you rely soly on Narcomoeba which might be risky.
I've also dropped the Petrified Fields because I need the deckspace and don't want to remove the Chalice of the Void and Leyline (already down to 3)

The kill suite I run at the moment (still with the Ichorids in the deck) is 2x Dread Return, 1x Flame-kin Zealot, 1x Sutured Ghoul, 1x Sundering Titan (basically a free slot) and 2x Dragon Breath.
It usually turns out on a turn 3 kill with either Ghoul or Zealot which makes me wonder if I should even run the Titan (eventhough it pumps the Ghoul bigtime)

I can't wait to see what Steve put together... maybe some new tech we haven't thought of before

[yespuhyren]

I'm really uneasy about this ichorid deck.  On one hand people are telling me there are tons of ridiculously fast kills with the post FS deck, but on the other hand I have rarely been losing in all the matches where people were playing the cards while running my stax.

[RaZe]

I'm really uneasy about this ichorid deck.  On one hand people are telling me there are tons of ridiculously fast kills with the post FS deck, but on the other hand I have rarely been losing in all the matches where people were playing the cards while running my stax.

You have to put into consideration that most of their lists are a straight up swap card per card with a few minor tweaks to accomodate the changes making it far from optimal. Add the fact the lack of experience they have with the 'new' deck will cost them to make significat suboptimal plays. Now compare that to your familliarity or I could even say 'mastery' of your own deck with a clear and definite game plan against ichorid which you are well versed with. Albeit this is reality and is expected, it does not neccessary reflect the strength of the deck.

[EKM_Ichorid]

Ichorid determines its fate with what is discards to the first Bazaar. If you can't choose correctly, you lose.

[oldbsturgeon]

right now my board is this
4 gemstone mine
2 riftstone portal
4 emerald charm
3 ancient grudge
2 whatever else.
i would rather have chain of vapor, but i really like ancient grudge too. that would mean i would have to run gemstone caverns instead or city of brass but i am trying to avoid those.
with using all green spells i can utilize portal, which i have always liked for the deck.
the 2 spots really can be anything and with some working with the main deck etc, i might be able to find room for 4 leyline.

[wethepeople]

I am not really worried about Pithing Needle, or even Tormod's Crypt anymore. I have a feeling that with the rise in Ichorid, people will begin to play four Leylines in the board. This is the reason why I have chosen to run both Emerald Charm, and Chain of Vapor in my board.

[nataz]

obv. any new board should include 4x esg and 4x green pact -> pithing needle or e-charm

[andrewpate]

I am not really worried about Pithing Needle, or even Tormod's Crypt anymore. I have a feeling that with the rise in Ichorid, people will begin to play four Leylines in the board. This is the reason why I have chosen to run both Emerald Charm, and Chain of Vapor in my board.

I think that the big place to worry about these cards is in Stax, where my testing shows that they can still be a problem for Ichorid.  Many times, it can be worth blowing several artifacts to use Crypt over the course of a few turns.  In addition, a good hand from Stax involving Wasteland and Smokestack has a reasonably high chance of forcing the Ichorid player to sack even a sideboarded Pithing Needle (naming Crypt or Goblin Welder) in the first few turns.  As a result, Ichorid players usually name Wasteland, and this allows the Stax player to use Crypt with abandon.  Chain of Vapor on Welder buys only a small, often insufficient window.  I will be very interested to see if Steve has new revelations on how to beat Stax, particularly if people start running additional Crypts.  Currently, I see the Ichorid player needing an opening hand with Bazaar of Baghdad, Pithing Needle, Chalice of the Void, and a mana-producing land all 4 in order to be favored against a quick Stax hand.

[Vegeta2711]

I don't get all the scuttle-butting here, it's really quite simple.

If you run grave hate and see said grave hate, Ichorid loses. If you don't see grave hate; or it's game 1, you will lose every game you don't turn 1 win or Ichorid mulligans into oblivion. I've pretty much minimized testing the deck, because the games are so linear (I guess Binary would be the other word) and boring. This is one of the few decks I wouldn't mind two-fist testing because you can figure out the outcome by the second turn in nearly every single game.

[Neonico]

Pre FS ichorid was a very strong matchup against allmost any build of stax, and as far as i tested this didnt change. I know that when i first played ichorid in tourneys, stax players didnt know how the deck works and what weao they get. But even if they adapted, I allmost didnt loose any of my stax playtests games.
remember also that stax is the  deck that asks the most mulligan skill, and often, being aggressive into the mulligans mean you wont get a good hand because you mulled too much for your solutions.

[andrewpate]

You are correct that Stax is very skill-intensive, mulligans and otherwise.  But I wonder who your playtest partner was for those games and how much skill and experience was going into the testing.  It may be that you were experiencing skill-intensive versus non skill-intensive rather than strategic superiority.  Piloting Stax with maindeck Tormod's Crypt and Pithing Needle, I have had a lot of luck against Ichorid.  The problem is that the Stax player must be good and know the matchup well, while the Ichorid player need only play the cards that get dredged and cross a few fingers.

[yespuhyren]

Pre FS ichorid was a very strong matchup against allmost any build of stax, and as far as i tested this didnt change. I know that when i first played ichorid in tourneys, stax players didnt know how the deck works and what weao they get. But even if they adapted, I allmost didnt loose any of my stax playtests games.
remember also that stax is the  deck that asks the most mulligan skill, and often, being aggressive into the mulligans mean you wont get a good hand because you mulled too much for your solutions.

Then again, playing my version of UbaStax, I have won 3/3 game 1's vs Ichorid in tournament.  This isn't even taking into account that thanks to splash hate most of my SB would hit ichorid as well.  I guess if the Ichorid players were more familiar with the deck and the stax player was less familiar with theirs, then the match could have been more like the players on these boards say - overly in the favor of the Ichorid decks.

[dicemanx]

I wonder then if it might be in Stax's interest to examine past builds that used 3-4 Transmute Artifact. This would increase the tutoring power and the likelihood of finding a Tormod's Crypt or Pithing Needle, both of which can be played main deck to beat decks like Ichorid or Belcher. Transmute artifact can also find the solitary Trinisphere against fast combo or an EE against EtW or Ichorid Bridge tokens. The post FS manaless Ichorid builds that have been presented thus far are very binary in nature as Veggies explained - they operate not on their ability to extricate themselves from tough situations, but base their hopes on the small likelihood of being put in a tough situation in the first place. Once that likelihood increases because a deck like Stax gets restructured to compensate, it will remain difficult for Ichorid to perform well.

[EKM_Ichorid]

The new Ichorid dodges grave hate much better because it can create permenant beaters and doesn't need a huge graveyard to gain huge board advantage. Tormod's Crypt is not scary anymore.