Uba Stax/Mud Mix

[Everrid1234]

Hi,

i would like you to look at this list and give me hints.
This deck is based on the superb Uba Mask/Bazaar draw engine which hates control and other decks, too.

What I don't like very much about Mono-R Ubastax is the addition of red.
The monoartifact composition gives possibilities to go off extremely strong during the first two turns.

Maybe you think Metalworker is crap and lockdown components should be added to be dropped in the first turn.
But what about Welder? He also does't do anything by itself. It helps doing crazy thing in the later turns but doesnt Metalworker do the same? Bringing in artifacts? I think the worker can replace Welder if Null Rod isnt an issue. And Welder and Chalice dont fit so perfectly together in one deck.

But look at the list.
There are so much loking components and with a good opening hand i would logically first drop the lock, then play Metalworker and go off.
Metalworker can help to break though controls Counters very nicely.

Maybe you miss Null Rod, but with Chalice, Spheres, UbaMask and Tangle Wire i'm not sure if even more hate is needed. All nice against Combo.
Against which decks is Null Rod in the newer versions brought in? It also nerves my maindecked atrtifacts.
I added it to the SB.

Where yre the weaknesses of this deck? I think it can drop a lot of threats against fast combo (but not enough?), vs. Aggro I have a great board and control should be overwhelmed, when this deck doesn't run in a Mana Drain.

Here is the list:

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Bazaar of Baghdad

4 Metalworker
2 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan

4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Uba Mask

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

SB:

4 Razormane Masticore
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Triskelion
3 Caltrops
4 Null Rod

I'm not a Uba Stax/Mud expert so some of my points may be wrong and be different under tournament conditions but I don't have experiece with tournaments. So I would like your input.

[yespuhyren]

I came up with a list extremely close to that one on our team boards.  The deck was cool and lots of fun, but the downside was I just missed not having welders and barbarian rings.  Welders just win games with their sheer brokenness an Barbarian Rings allow you to play Ensnaring Bridge instead of Caltrops.  All in all, while mono brown was enticing, the only thing that was really great about it was the addition of Ancient Tomb, which was why I tried it.  I also had 2 City of Traitors.  Metalworker I don't really like in this deck, as with 4 Bazaars and 4 Uba Mask you are often going to be better off with Thran Dynamo here.

[madmanmike25]

Maybe you think Metalworker is crap and lockdown components should be added to be dropped in the first turn.

Unless you are playing Null Rod maindeck, you MUST include Metalworker in an all artifact build.  It is always better to disrupt first, but if you lay a Chalice @ 0 and a Metalworker first turn, that should be ok.

Where are the weaknesses of this deck?

Well, one problem is that you only have 23 mana sources.  Two of those only count when you have a way to put them in play(Sol Ring and Mana Vault).  Yes it is a technicality, but it is relevant.  Metalworker doesn't count as a mana source unless you have 3 mana to cast him and another turn to activate him.  I think 25 is probably the lowest you want to go on mana sources.  I would cut the random Sundering Titan for a City of Traitors.  I like him, but you don't always get a Worker in play to make him easy to cast, not to mention Spheres make him difficult to put into play as well.


Are four Uba Masks necessary?  With Crucible, Bazaar can usually function fairly well by itself for its filtering ability.  Cut one for the 25th mana source, perhaps another City of Traitors.

Even then, test out Uba and ask yourself if it is disrupting your opponent very much.  In today's tutor-filled environment, Uba is somewhat compromised.  What made Uba great was when you had 2 and could weld them in and out with Goblin Welder.  If you find it is not working as you had hoped try switching it for a Bottled Cloister which won't have anti-snyergy with Metalworker like Uba does.

Chalice shines in a deck like this with few 1 cc spells.  It is also great in multiples, it's never a dead card.

Depending on what decks you typically play against, consider Jester's Cap in the maindeck.  At least consider it for a SB card.

If you put in Bottled Cloister you will see it works great with Ensnaring Bridge.  No more EtW tokens/Ichorid/Angels/DSC to attack you.  Also, no more Duress(yay...).  Bridge is a possible SB card.

Even Powder Keg is good against EtW tokens, just watch out for your own Chalices/Moxen.  If you have a turn, it also takes out Goblin Welders.


I also encourage you to look at both mine and Whitewolf's MUD threads on this site.  I have played the hell out of MUD decks(and Stax decks for that matter) and examined many card options.

[Everrid1234]

Hi madmanmike,

very worthy input.
So the Bottled Cloister acts as an additional draw each turn, that's nice. Uba Mask gives me 3 cards per turn on hand when i get Bazaar online and also nerves control and combo players. This "when" in "when i get Bazaar online" is a point. Cloister can also work without other cards.
But imo Uba is preferable because of its disruptive element and that's what MUD wants. But I went down to 3. Its not such a necessary element of the first turns and so 3 should be ok. Some combo decks use draw7s. Each uses Brainstorm. And it forces to play the card THIS turn. I think thats good to reduce the chance of a fatal storm count.

I also put in 2 more City of Traitors.
Jester's Cap is a very nice tool but it costs a bit much.
Ensnaring Bridge also is a nice tool against very aggressive decks. Since Its good even against combo (using ETW) or Ichorid i think its preferable to Powder Keg.

The SB Trisks are vs enemy welders etc they nerve a lot.


My other toughts you can read in my new list.

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Bazaar of Baghdad

4 Metalworker
2 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Triskelion

4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void

3 Uba Mask

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

SB:

3 Razormane Masticore
2 Triskelion
4 Defense Grid
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tormod's Crypt

[ristoman]

I really like this deck, and have been playing it a fair amount in the past.
Turn 1 Metalworker always makes for fun Turn 2's.

It rapes combo quite effectively and I'm wondering how well it would fare against the revived Ichorid with the various 3Sphere and SoR to fight flashback.

I also ran Cloisters which are surprisingly good in most matchups, but I know that better players can work with it to permanently remove your hand from the game (i.e. Bouncing Cloister - Chain or Hurkyl's with the RFG on the stack, the second option being extremely damaging).

One direction I was considering (which has been mentioned before) was the inclusion of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth - this would allow for a Black splash and a suite of Tutors and Bob for extra drawing. Since some Stax won by beating with Welders, beating with bob shouldn't feel much different. My only question is whether the average casting cost and the relatively slow tempo at which Stax / MUD beat would cause more life loss than benefit. I guess I'd feel more comfortable with Karn on the board and Smokestacks, Ubas and Cloisters beating if I had Bob in play. But then again, if I'm already beating, why would I need Bob? However there is little against being able to play DT, VT, Seal (if one was so inclined), maybe even Demonic Consultation. Something also needs to be said about 100% Nonbasic lands vs. 6-7 Basics in the main, I would probably favor the latter if I splashed black, maybe with 1 or 2 fetches. The first option would probably include Cities or Gemstone Mine. Lotus Petal would also be a good addition at that point.

Finally, another thing that struck me was the possibility of a transformational sideboard - something about siding in Null Rods and Welders g2 and 3 for Metalworkers and Cloisters, effectively flipping the deck between pure Stax and MUD, sounds fun. I'm just not sure the slots would be worth it after your opponent sides in all the arty hate they can get.

Any thoughts?

[Everrid1234]

Hi, I tried to improve the deck. Although it can't play Welders, Heretics etc it relies on just its raw power. This build tries to squeeze out all out of the mana curve, but doesn't play Metalworker since it's not a threat in itself. No Metalworker also means that Uba Mask/Bazaar can be played in the deck better. Although he is pretty nice I can hardcast everything easily without hin.
In my opinion it is important to have a high threat density and (what I missed the whole time) a good draw engine.
This build tries to solve the problems you have in the lategame. Hate laying around but not enough cards on the hand to keep up the high pressure. So i put Bottles Cloister inside for additional draw, Ubazaar for even more (ony 3 Uba because Bazaar is needed to make it efficient) and the Bazaar itself as a filter. What do you think?
Weaknesses are fast aggro and combo like Icho, Oath or Flash. Therefore the Tangle Wires are desperately needed and the SB cards. Against aggro-decks i have Trisk, Karn and Razormane. I have no better ideas against Aggro.
Selfdamage is really high.

Since Tormod's Crypt is not good enough to Stop fast combo I included 4 Leylines. Only 2 Karn main because i have such a strong draw, they should be on my hand not too late. 1 in the SB since Karn is nice for blocking.

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Bazaar of Baghdad    !

2 Karn, Silver Golem

4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void

3 Uba Mask          !
4 Bottled Cloister  !

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault

SB:

4 Jester's Cap
3 Razormane Masticore
1 Karn, Silver Golem
3 Triskelion
4 Leyline of the Void


Do you think this deck is good this way, especially considering the draw engine for not running out of gas....? Is it too much draw?

[Xyre]

I've tested Mono-Red Uba Stax, I've tested 5-color Stax, and I've tested Mono-Grey. I prefer the former. Here's why:

The problem with Metalworker is that, while it has some inherent power, it is not powerful by itself. Worker can power out turn 2 Titans easily, for sure, but he's not the powerful card there; the Titan is the broken piece. This is not to say that the Mono-artifact deck isn't bad, but rather that it would be better if it sacrificed a bit of speed for resilience and an additional lock enabler (Welder).

Plus, among other things, the Mono-Artifact deck loses hands-down to the Mono-Red deck, Metalworker often subs in on turn 1 for control elements that might prevent you losing outright to Flash/Storm, and Worker + Uba Mask is a nonbo if there ever was one.

[Dave Valentine]

Hello...Sorry if my English not so good...

I have tested some Stacks deck and I hope We can share any idea here...

For MUD, I prefer Orb of Dreams than Uba Mask...Have u tested it ? I think it is a good option...It can slown down enemy's fetch land, ichorid and moxen...

The List deck that I've played is like this :

4 Mishra Workshop
3 Ancient Tombs
3 City of Traitor
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault

4 Metalworker
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance

3 Bottle Cloister
3 Orb of Dreams
2 Crucible of the World
1 Duplicant
1 Triskelion
1 Karn, Silver Golem

1 Trinisphere
1 Memory Jar
2 Powder's Keg

Sideboard :

3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Damping Matrix ----> Welder, Viashino Heretic
2 Duplicant
2 Razormane Masticore
3 Blasting Station -----> Oath


I like that deck, but after some test....I realize that the mono grey Stacks have some problems...

The problems are :
1. Hard to answer 1st turn Welder in the apponent's field...
2. Hard to play against Fish ( Null Rod, kataki, meddling )
3. After sideboarding, there is a nightmare ( Energy Flux, Shattering spree)

The benefits are :
1. More consistent
2. A lot of disruptions and locks

[Everrid1234]

Hi,

you are totally right about the problem matchups. Even a Kataki combined with Wastelands can cause real trouble.
Orb of Dreams is really ok, i also thought about it. But the problem of the deck is that the lockdown has to be kept and you can't rely on drawing into further lockpieces which fit into the current situation by just drawing 1 card per turn. So Uba Mask would be my draw (with Bazaar) AND have nice effects against controlish decks which sometimes have to let the card be removed or something else.

[Pitlord]

MUD as an archetype has always intrigued me, although I have yet to abandon 5c Stax for MUD in actual tournament play. There is one reason for the hesitation, the Mirror Match. MUD has a really rough time against any other sort of stax decks because of a certain little goblin.

I do believe that the archetype is very strong, and think that metalworker allows really stupid things to happen very quickly. The only weakness is how vulnerable the deck is in the mirror, but I believe that can be remedied by one little card... Powder Keg.

Keg not only kills opposing welders dead, but it also makes up for one of the biggest weaknesses of Stax in general, losing the dice roll. Dealing with early threats is the biggest problem with MUD has, and Keg can do that surprisingly quickly. It deals with fast goyfs and dryads as soon as turn 3, and can come down and wreck EtW tokens on the spot.

I would suggest going
-1 Cloister
-1 Thorn
+2 Keg

To your latest list.

 

[Zelow]

i think the red idea is top here metal worker is too weak in alot of situations where welder can totally break a duplicant or titan totally rapping your opponent metal worker is easy to play around and welder is even more amazing in the mirror (as has been noted below) personally though i like the aggro shop build since im not a big fan of the "stax" part of stax lol i like having a ton of threats with a ton of lock peices ill post my shop affinity aggro deck in the improvement forum sometime soon so check it out and rate it/discuss it with me well ttyl folks  Zelow

[meadbert]

I was going to post this in the Uba Stax thread, but I see this thread has had more recent activity and what I am about to say applies here.  I have recently been testing my version of Uba Stax versus Empty Gush and GAT.  At first I was surprised to find that the Empty Gush, Uba Stax matchup was about even.  This is because I figured it would play out similar to the GAT matchup and the GAT matchup used to be obscenely in Uba Stax's favor.  Anyway, after looking at it I realized that any deck whose three main deck win conditions are Empty the Warrens, Tinker->DSC and Ingot Chewer is probably going to do okay in game 1.  The fact that Empty Gush brought in 4 Heretics from the board ( I was using Carp's list) made the post board matchup in Empty Gush's favor.  So that matchup was about even, and it made me worry about Heretic more than I used to.

I also retested the GAT matchup.  Goyf is better than Dryad against Stax since Stax can use resistors to cut down on the number of spells cast.  Goyf is unaffected and pretty big as soon as he comes into play.  Recent GAT lists have dropped down to three colors and are running more basics.  This makes a huge difference because turn 1 Wasteland no longer randomly wins games by cutting GAT off from Gush.  Finally the board of the deck I was using had something like 3 Energy Flux and 4 Oxidize.

I found the GAT / Uba Stax matchup remained insanely in Uba Stax's favor.  In game 1 Chalice@2 was game over for GAT since all its win conditions and removal spells were 2cc.
Post board Oxidize certainly helped but I found that GAT was loosing close games rather than being blown out.  GAT was still losing.  Uba Stax only needs one Chalice@2, one Smokestack or 1 Uba Mask to totally wreck GAT.  For this reason Energy Flux is not that threatening.  Note:  Welder is good against Flux as usual.  Oxidize is good for sure, but it has negative synergy wiith Energy Flux.  Also, Chalice@1 becomes a good play post board.
With Serum Powder you mulligan into a hand with turn 1 Smokey, Uba or Chalice@2 around 70% of the time.  These games are alll very tough for GAT to win.

I took careful notes on the last 6 games I played.  The first two were preboard and the last 4 post board.  GAT went first in games 1, 3, and 4 and Uba Stax went first in games 2, 5 and 6.

Game 1:  After Serum Powder mulliganing Turn 1 Smokey races turn 1 Goyf despite Echoing Truth on Smokey.  Welder chump blocked to buy an extra turn and GAT's board was wiped clean with Uba Stax at 1life.
Game 2: Turn 1 Shop->Crucible with Strip in hand.  Turn 2 Shop, Chalice@2 (Forced), Resistor.  Turn 3 Strip, Chalice@2 (that is the lock)
Game 3:  Serum Powder mulligan twice.  Then open with turn 1 Smokey followed by both Welder and Chalice@1 on turn 2.  If you already have Smokey in play post board then play Chalice@1 since cutting off Oxidize is more important that cutting off beaters.
Game 4:  Turn 2 Energy Flux for GAT.  Uba Stax lucks into what would have been turn 2 Uba Lock but is actually missing second artifact.  (This never happens).  It went turn 1 Welder, turn 2 Welder, turn 3 Uba.  On turn 4 a mox is top decked allowing for an Uba Lock.
Game 5:  Serum Powder mulls into turn 1 Uba Mask, but GAT actually has Dryad +2 Goyfs in oppening hand and Uba Mask does little against though.  The beaters easily race a turn 3 Smokey which a desperate Bazaar found.
Game 6:  Serum Powder mulls into turn 1 Uba Mask followed by turn 2 Smokestack for a pretty easy win.

Note that in 6 games Serum Powder was used 5 times.  All six games Uba Stax began with a hand of 7 and a Workshop.  This suggests some luck on Uba Stax's part, but you can mulligan into a hand of 6 or 7 and a Workshop over 80% of the time.

Mulliganing decisions are fairly easy once you learn them, however those not used to playing with Serum Powder are far too conservative in their mulliganing decisions.  General mulliganing rules of thumb.  Obviously there are tons of exceptions and the rules are different against different decks.
1:  If you have Shop keep the hand.
2:  If you have Welder, red source and Bazaar then keep the hand.
3:  If you have Serum Powder then mulligan ... even if you have Lotus.
4:  Mulligan

I am not trying to derail this thread at all.  For those of you who have not tested Serum Powder I strongly encourage you to test it.  Many players such as Madman Mike have tested it and found it suboptimal, or at least worse than Tangle Wire.  I continue to find it very useful.

Mostly I am adding this post because I wanted to point out how Uba Stax plays out against more up to date decks.
Good luck guys!

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I just recently top 8ed at a sizable local event running a mud list containing 3x staff of domination. Although my strategy was primarily aggressive wasteing, I'm really not sure why a list containing worker would not play staff.
Even with out worker on bored, staff is great in our aggro heavy meta, causing opponents to try and double threat through spheres, wire, and smoke stacks. In the events that there are no threats on the field and you've locked your opponent down with out a win condition of your own, staff lets you draw cards. Even running only 18 mana sources (not counting worker,lotus, and shops) activating staff was never a problem.

Uba mask. I really am not sure uba mask is an optimal use of main deck space in this meta, Goyf and Bob/ any cheap aggro still go the distance.

CotV. Even though there is a concentration of 1 cc and 2 cc in the meta, the threats are typically sitting at 2cc. If you don't get early chalice with 4 mana your still in trouble. Late game chalice draws dead in a way that more wires, stax, and even just more bodies do not. I do love chalice in sb for ritual combo match ups.

Serum Powder. I would like to second serum powder main, although I only ran it as a 2 of, cutting top #4 and mana crypt from my build. Both the mulligans and casting for mana was relevant (I often casted serum powder to improve my late game mana base in situations where mana crypt would have been terrible).

In my testing I've found that Mud is pretty resilient to a a lot of different forms of hate.
Welder is by far the easiest, just don't let artifacts hit your yard. this is pretty easy with the exception of the slaver match up (right now the 2-0 bracket should not contain slaver).
Null rod is very draw related. In my build it hits 10 artifact sources, worker/staff and trikes. If you've seen null rode, try to keep hands with shop plus static ability artifacts or shop aggro. basically a mulligan call. If you can  play through it, or lock them out keep it.
trygon/viashino heretic. For the most part, I have the post bored option to play a mix of 7 trike/dupe
energy flux. This one is pretty hard. Metal worker is a great way to Combat flux, and top dodges it. Other than that, I usually go for the early lock out. But I definitely seen this deck win through energy flux a few times (not being piloted by me however).

[Everrid1234]

A lot of matchups seem hard, you need a nearly perfect starting hand and have nearly no option to enhance card quality fast. Bounce, selflock via a wasted Workshop, clever Mana Drains, Fluxen, Kataki.
Did this type of deck win anything in the latest times?

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I've had recent success with mud.  One thing that made me decide to play the deck was its great matchup vs gat ss goyf and deez nauhgts.  These deck types are basicly simple Agro/aggro control builds. Tangle wire is great vs these deck types plus mud allows you to run better creatures then them, trike/duplican/karn/platz/titan. There just isn't a lot of removal for these guys in the meta. Mud as also incredibly imune to wasteland. Metal worker is like having 2 unwastable shops all the time, not to mention crucible. As for increaseing early card quality, bazaar is a clasic ansewer. And top is like starting with a ten card had. Not to mention the 2 together is 5 cards of vision a turn.  As far as shop goes, the hand is all about filtering, and I believe it does it very well. As for clever drains, a good shop deck is double threating and does care to much about drains, and kataki has been sort of a joke in testing both trike and dupe hit it.

[Everrid1234]

I tried to improve the deck again.
I removed the Ubazaar-engine. Filtering is nice, if the 2 cards are combined it really rocks but i think it takes a bit too much time. So there are 4 Cloisters left for additional draw. I think that they are the best draw available, knowing their weaknesses (bounce).
So here is the new build, trying to win the permanent-race by Karn and Triskelion. Trisk could also help improving bad matchups like R-Stax, Flash, Ichorid or fast aggro (Kataki, Confidant, blocking Goyf).

I am unsure about the 9 Spheres (maybe go down to 5-8), Crucible (is it still so hot?) , amount of Karn and Trisks, addition of Orb of Dreams.

Chalices, Smokestacks, 5 Spheres, Tangle Wires are musts imo.

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

2 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Triskelion

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Bottled Cloister 

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault

SB:

4 Jester's Cap
4 Razormane Masticore
1 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Powder Keg




EDIT: Eon Hub is total crap since he shuts off Smokestack and Tangle Wire. I think Jester's Cap is great in the deck since it also solves some of the problem matchups. When i manage slowing Oath orFlash down a few turns, an activated cap can seal the game.
The most questionable slots are the 4 Trikes, the 2 Karns, the 4 Thorns and the 4 Bottled Cloisters. What do you think about these?

The modified SB tried to handle the worst matchups, aka fast Aggro and fast Combo. The spheres stop Control decks and also help a lot against Ichorid.
3 Karn after SBing should handle aggressive decks.

Which cards are also playable in this deck? -->

Winter Orb -nice
Orb of Dreams -ok, but only if dropped really fast.
Uba Mask/Bazaar of Baghdad  -really strong, takes a while to get online
Leyline SB   -too random imo
Metalworker  -nice but not necessary, doesn't do anything on his own.
Null Rod  -nice, but i think i need the moxen for myself. A fast Karn handles the opponent's moxen.
Ensnaring Bridge - Really nice against fast aggro but it just protect me for a while and doesn't do anything. So i decided for just creatures in the SB

Please comment this last list!

[Everrid1234]

Has anyone thought about Grafted Skullcap?
I often tested this deck and Bottled Cloister was always the last spell I played since all lockdown should definitely be played first. So the discard effect of G. Skullcap shouldn't have such a high impact, although not being ignorable. This would provide a strong draw without the fear of bounce.
But it should be sided out against each deck where R. Masticore is borded in of course. I can't see any creature being better against all aggro-decks than the Razormane Masticore, maybe you know one?

What do you think? The actual list would be:

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

2 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Triskelion                                 ? This one kills early permanents and annoying threats like Welder, Kataki, Virulent Slivers etc. IMO really good

4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst    ? number
1 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds     ?
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Grafted Skullcap/Bottled Cloister

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault

SB:

4 Jester's Cap
4 Razormane Masticore
1 Karn, Silver Golem      ? good against aggressive aggro
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Powder Keg             ?nice and flexible but not THE huge card. I think Ensnaring Bridge could replace this one nicely


Since there are many artifacts in the deck I think T. Crypt is better than Null Rod against combo.
Against control the deck has a gg, against combo there is lots of hate, against aggro it's not easy as far as i see.

[madmanmike25]

Has anyone thought about Grafted Skullcap?
I often tested this deck and Bottled Cloister was always the last spell I played since all lockdown should definitely be played first. So the discard effect of G. Skullcap shouldn't have such a high impact, although not being ignorable. This would provide a strong draw without the fear of bounce.
But it should be sided out against each deck where R. Masticore is borded in of course. I can't see any creature being better against all aggro-decks than the Razormane Masticore, maybe you know one?

See, you really shouldn't ever play Cloister OR Skullcap first(as you say).  So realistically in the mid game we have:

Cloister with a minimal drawback since you probably don't have many cards in hand.  The most commonly played bounce spells are Chain of Vapor and E. Truth.  Is your opponent really going to bounce your Cloister just to RFG a card or two?  They would rather bounce a lockpiece that is actually preventing them from winning.
Pros: +1 card per turn, Duress/Seize proof(the latter is of minor importance)
Cons: Negligible.

Skullcap has the advantage early game butwe already know the problem with that.  You should be playing lock pieces early game and not the Skullcap.
Pros: +1 card
Cons: No more hand, ever.  Maybe you could attach a chainsaw and hunt the undead?(hope someone gets the reference)

Also you say you would side out your ONLY source of draw when you bring in Masticore(bolded)???  That's doubly bad if you ask me and yet another reason to stick with Cloister.

And for the knockout puch;  Which of the two cards is better in multiples?  Choose wisely.

Good looking list though.  Your disruption package looks top notch.  And by top notch I mean a pain in the arse to play against.  Me likey.

Do you ever find yourself missing Metalworker?  I found them pretty much interchangeable with Crucibles in my MUD lists.  Not saying to put 'em in just yet, but if you find Crucibles to be only average for you then test him in that slot and see if it even matters.

Mike

P.S.
Dupes are another option vs. Goyfs since they also create a form of card advantage.  They can also eat Angels, and how cool is that?

Pentavus can create attackers and block flyers and groundlings all day long.  Seeing as how all your disruption can make it difficult for Tyrant Oath to actually combo out(but not really stop the casting of Oath) he can buy you a lot of time by blocking.  Just a random thought, but perhaps a bad one.

[Everrid1234]

Hi mike,

if you don't think that mass-bounce like H. Recall or Rebuild is played in opponents sideboards, Cloister is the strictly superior card. But as far as i understood, Casting mass bounce in response to the remove trigger removed my entire board.
The list is really disruptive. This is why i don't want to play Metalworker. He gives mana but nothing more. And this deck doesn't have problems to cast big artifacts and the turn Metalworker is played tends to be a wasted one (of course playing Worker and playing the whole hand the next turn is huge, but you have 1 less disruption card to be played now) and the meta is fast.

The question about Crucible is hard to answer. The Crucible has 2 main purposes for me:
-saving my Workshops (important to keep up the pressure)
-recurring Wastelands (combined with Cloisters you get the Wasteland on the hand relatively fast, a small synergy)
-ramping Smokestack high, combined with the Cloisters which give me an additional permanent each turn

You must decide. I have no idea about a better card in these 3 slots. If i would't like the Crucibles maybe i would play Orb of Dreams here. You could make Cruci more effective by adding 1 Ghost Quarter, but this is somehow not optimal.
Dupes are nice but can only be used once. I think Pentavus is much better here.....maybe Triskelavus....

Against all Oath/Flash/combodecks the way to go is Jester' Cap. Stop opponent's actions until you can activate the cap. Not easy but once you got the Cap it nearly gg.

EDIT: I am not totally sure about the Crucible, as I said. I marked the cards i could imagine a change with a questionmark.
I think the maindeck should stay totally focused on permanent and spell-playing disruption (although you could aindeck Jester's Cap in combo metas).

Good cards which could also be played are:
-Orb of Dreams
-Winter Orb
-Ensnaring Bridge
-Pentavus(Triskelavus)

[unicoerner]

I am surprised, that the synergz between Welder and Bazaar wasn`t reallz mentioned yet. It`s one of the finest things if you play Bazaar.
Ensnaring Bridge is for me the best aggro hoser atm.

someone mentioned it before, why aren`t we adding some Staffs o D if we are playing worker? I see it`s not a lock effect, but it`s a draw and a i win card, which can be really helpfull vs combo.

The only reason for me to play mud over R Stax is that Metalworker> Flux

[Everrid1234]

Hi unicoerner (from zkforum ),

there are big differences between R-Stax and Brown-Stax.
The deck you suggest has a relatively different playstyle from the deck which is discussed in this thread.

-->R-Stax:

-Welder-tricks
-UbaMask-Lock
-UbaMask lets you abuse the Bazaar
-less disruption, more synergies
-abuses the grave
-CotV at 1 is often a misplay since you can draw Welder in one of the following turns. Mono-Brown loves to play CotV at 1.

-->Brown-Stax:

-total focus on disruption (don`t let him play anything, eat/tap his resources and permanents)
-easier casting of fat artifacts since you don't have to play red lands

But don't let us discuss about the red version, the thread is about the brown one.
There is a nice thread existing about brown vs. red.

[mtg247]

Hi madmanmike,

very worthy input.
So the Bottled Cloister acts as an additional draw each turn, that's nice. Uba Mask gives me 3 cards per turn on hand when i get Bazaar online and also nerves control and combo players. This "when" in "when i get Bazaar online" is a point. Cloister can also work without other cards.
But imo Uba is preferable because of its disruptive element and that's what MUD wants. But I went down to 3. Its not such a necessary element of the first turns and so 3 should be ok. Some combo decks use draw7s. Each uses Brainstorm. And it forces to play the card THIS turn. I think thats good to reduce the chance of a fatal storm count.

I also put in 2 more City of Traitors.
Jester's Cap is a very nice tool but it costs a bit much.
Ensnaring Bridge also is a nice tool against very aggressive decks. Since Its good even against combo (using ETW) or Ichorid i think its preferable to Powder Keg.

The SB Trisks are vs enemy welders etc they nerve a lot.


My other toughts you can read in my new list.

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Bazaar of Baghdad

4 Metalworker
2 Karn, Silver Golem
2 Triskelion

4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice of the Void

3 Uba Mask

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

SB:

3 Razormane Masticore
2 Triskelion
4 Defense Grid
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tormod's Crypt

     I agree with your ensnaring bridges for ichorid. I've never used them but I think I'm gonna start. I've been trying out orb of dreams, with minimal results. I also think that metalworker is an auto 4 of. He just makes you go busted. I just love the look on someones face when you go first turn, workshop, metalworker. It's great.

[Kotch]

Here is my contribution to a MUD build.

Please excuse my poor english!

I think that everybody agrees that a MUD build should be composed by an auto-include core and then by additionnal cards that depend on the orientation you want to give to the deck. Here is the list of what (in my opinion) should be the beginning of an actual MUD build, I will explain my point of view below :

---49 auto-include cards :---
1 strip mine
4 wasteland
4 mishra's workshop
1 tolarian academy
3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
5 mox
1 black lotus
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
3 karn silver golem
1 trinisphere
2 thorn of amethyst
4 sphere of resistance
4 chalice of the void
4 tangle wire
4 smokestack
3 crucible of worlds

---11 additionnal slots :---
2-3 additionnal lands (ancient tomb #4 + city of traitors #3, or 3 mishra's factory)
2-4 creature hate (triskelion/duplicant/powder keg)
0-1 additionnal Sphere (thorn of amethyst)
3-6 free slots : juggernaut, bottled cloister, orb of dreams.

---15 sideboard cards---
4 leyline of the void
3 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
1-2 thorn of amethyst
0-3 jester's cap
3-6 razormane masticore/duplicant/triskelion

I won't give arguments about the core cards' purpose, just one word about the 3 Karn silver golem : I really think that playing only 2 of them is a mistake, it's the best mix of Disruption (vs moxen), Protection (0/8 and animating dudes) and Attack (of course), all of this for a so cheap mana cost in this deck. The opponent will absolutely try to counter or destroy it, that's why his Lengendary status is not a problem. If it was not legendary, I would certainly play 4 of them! And more important, he allows you to kill opponent without having a total lock on board.


My other arguments about this list :

Why not 4 Thorn of Amethyst maindeck?
On the first game, Thorn of Amethyst is a weak card vs Shop.decks and Aggro.decks, and I think that 7 or 8 Spheres and 4 Chalice of the Void are enough to ensure a first turn threat on opponent. Additionnal Thorns may be sided in only vs appropriate matchups.

Where is Metalworker?
We are talking about PRISON-ORIENTED build of MUD, right? Metalworker is justified only if the number of cards with a 6 and more casting cost is superior to 4, and/or if maximizing targets for equipment cards is required, and/or if you expect a heavy land-disruptive metagame (2 years ago, with so many Fish-like and mana-disruptive decks, a turn 1 Metalworker was a good play, but nowadays...). The only deck that can support Metalworker nowadays is Aggro MUD, with Sword of Fire and Ice, Trikes, Dupes, sometimes Platinum Angels... In Prison MUD, I am convinced that his ability to produce mana in a deck that already has a sooo explosive mana base only increases the probability to get mana full... You want more mana? Play Bottled Cloister, it will find the required mana, AND it will allow you to draw 2 cards per turn! Anyway, Metalworker should NEVER be a first turn drop, regarding the current metagame speed. Starting with Metalworker on turn 1 is ALWAYS worse than Sphere, Orb of Dreams, or even Smokestack... because it says « hurry up to kill me while I do nothing, because very soon I will maybe lock you! »! I hear you saying « Smokestack and Crucible of Worlds have the same effect, doing nothing on opponent the turn it comes into play. OK, but first, Smokestack and Crucible compensate their weakness with their power which is increasing as the game is going on, while Metalworker becomes worse as you are dropping lands on board. And the second argument is more important : Smokestack and Crucible do things that nothing else in the deck can do on their own (destroying permanents and recurring mana-denial lands), while Metalworker just does what your mana base already efficiently makes : producing huge mana, and at least without waiting one turn. Good vs Energy Flux? If opponent manages to get 3 open mana on his main phase, I think that you missed something BEFORE! I totally agree that Metalworker is really powerfull in Aggro builds, but please, stop playing Metalworker in Prison builds!!!

Orb of Dreams as a possible slot?
I think that this could be a good metagame choice, as mana bases are quite weak, including very few basic lands. Wastelands are still better with Orb of Dreams on board, even Ghost Quarter could be included in synergy with it. Moreover, it is the only threat vs Ichorid on game one, even if it is not dealing with opponent's tokens (pray to begin game 1 with a turn 1 Wasteland, 2 mana accelerants, and Orb of Dreams! ^^). And vs Oath, it allows you to waste Orchards while they are tapped... Vs Flash and Combo, it gains sooo much time!

Bottled Cloister?
Since there is nothing better than this artifact as a draw engine in a such list (Bazaar UbaStax is a different build, such as Aggro-SoFaI-Mud), it can be a good way to dig your deck. If only it could be a bit cheaper or have more advantages... However, it is better than Grafted Skullcap : if opponent manages to cast a Rebuild or a Hurkyl's Recall in response to the discard or RfG effect of one of these artifacts, it means that you lose on next turn anyway. But, if opponent casts a bounce spell like Chain of Vapor or Echoing Truth at the end of your turn, he will surely rather play it on a real threat (Sphere, Tangle, ramped Smokestack) than on Cloister or Skullcap. In this case, Bottled Cloister is strictly better because allowing you to play it on next turn (if you're not dead then ^^). Synergic with Metalworker? No, just redundant. Both have the same effect as giving more mana, BUT Cloister makes you draw extra cards.

What about Bazaar of Baghdad and Uba Mask as draw engine?
Playing this engine and NOT Goblin Welder is a huge mistake in my opinion. This draw engine is really powerfull, even with the new Oracle's errata, but it is powerfull thanks to the Welder that allows each piece of the combo to work alone. Not playing Welder with this combo is like not playing Brainstorm in a Combo deck, it's the card that gives more consistancy to the deck, allowing each piece of the combo to be more powerfull, even without the total combo online. The other problem with this combo is that it takes AT LEAST 7 slots (4 Bazaar and 3 Uba), and I even think that 3 Bottled Cloister should be included to the combo, as Cloister + Bazaar and Cloister + Uba are good, allowing more mini-combos and draw effects. But that requires a total of 10 slots! MUD does need a second breath for his late game, but not at this price. However, if I wanted to play this combo, I would just add Red and Welders ans Barbarian Rings which have sooo much more synergies than a Bazaar MUD... but that's another deck that looses MUD's explosive mana base, and part of Chalice of the Void's huge power.

The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale?
This card is one of the bests vs Ichorid and Oath. It decimates Ichorid's tokens and Dryads and Narcomoebas, and with Orb of Dreams dealing with Ichorids, it makes game over vs Ichorid. It allows you to sacrifice Oath's tokens at your upkeep, since you just have to keep your Wastelands to destroy the Orchards during the opponent's turn (they are like uncounterable Smokestacks # 5 to 7!). They are uncounterable, un-cabal-therapyable or discardable, and even recursive to Crucible of Worlds. They also can be used vs random Aggro decks, and even Aggro Shop.decks, especially the Red versions with Shamans, Welders...

Leyline of the Void?
Even if it is a dead and uncastable card if not in first hand, it is your only possible threat vs Ichorid and Flash on turn 0 if opponent begins. That's why it is better than Tormod's Crypt or Pithing Needle naming Bazaar. With 9 Spheres post-board, it ensures you at least not to be killed on turn 0. Even if it is destroyed on opponent's turn 1 when you are on the draw, it will allow you to play your Spheres/Chalices on your first turn.

Where is Ensnaring Bridge? It's a hoser vs Aggro decks and Ichorid, as a sideboard card!
Yes it is. But you will get a problem in killing your opponent with Bridge on board, because Bridge won't eliminate opponent's creatures who will be able to block your small animated-creatures (Spheres and Thorns, assuming you have 2 cards in hand for example with Cloister) and won't allow you to attack with your fatties. It will be very long to ramp a Smokestack to destroy opponent's creatures before your Bridge and finally, attacking with your dudes. Too long in a 50' round, and at the condition that you get a Smokestack on board (which should normally be sided out vs Ichorid!). It's one of the best sideboard card in Red UbaStax because of Barbarian's Ring kill, but not in a MUD build. Moreover, MUD offers plenty creature hosers that won't have a such symetric effect.

Jester's Cap?
No need to prove this card's power in the current meta, vs Flash (even if it transforms into Oath post side), vs Oath and Combo... but it's power is less effective if you play Orb of Dreams, since you give opponent the opportunity to save his key cards with Brainstorm. Also remember that Jester's Cap is not synergic with other lock components, it just steals games and that's what we expect from him! Jester's Cap is NOT a lock component and is quite expensive to cast and activate, that's why I would only play 3 of them, because I wouldn't play it before putting down lock components.

No Powder Keg in SB?
I really love Powder Keg's versatility and sometimes its brokeness, but this is exactly its weakness as a sideboard card : it is not specific enough, and quite slow to destroy a single Tarmogoyf or Dryad. I agree that it is very good Maindeck in so many situations, but I prefer to side in specific cards rather than Powder Keg. Vs Aggro which is its main purpose, won't you prefer Razormane Masticore, Triskelion or Duplicant? Vs Oath tokens, Tabernacle is so much better! However, it remains an excellent card thanks to its versatility, but that's exactly why I only play it Maindeck or not at all, and if I play it I side it out very often for more specific cards.



Now let's go for the additionnal slots' choices!

In addition to the lock components which are auto-included in a Prison MUD build, we can see 3 possible orientations in the additionnal slots :
1. Play more lock components to ensure a better lock on opponent,
2. Play draw components to dig for more lock components,
3. Play more fatties to win without having a total lock on opponent.

The choice of the additionnal cards must be the result of a simple analysis : MUD wins when the lock is total, of course, and loses when it is too slow to combine several threats. But what about all other situations, when you get a partial lock, such as one or two Spheres, Tangle Wire, Crucible of Worlds, but your opponent still gets his damn basic Island and Fetchland out, waiting for the third mana to cast Hurkyl's Recall and win on next turn? And you are desperately waiting for a Smokestack or a Karn to knock him out? These situations are the ones that are a real problem for MUD, and must help to choose the correct additionnal cards, depending on metagame choices or personnal feelings.

Options number 1 and 2 are fully Prison-oriented, while option number 3 tries to put a « clock » on the opponent rather than to completely lock him, getting time advantage from disruption spells (which still allows you to get a total lock on board of course!).

Option #3's best symbol is Karn, that's why I would play Juggernaut and Mishra's Factory in the same goal : put pressure on opponent even if the lock is not total, and maximizing Tangle Wire's power in tapping opponent's potential blockers. Remember that the core deck remains Prison-oriented, only the additionnal cards try to manage MUD's weakness in partial lock situations. Here's the list I would suggest if option #3 is prefered :

1 strip mine
4 wasteland
4 mishra's workshop
1 tolarian academy
3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
3 mishra's factory
5 mox
1 black lotus
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
2 triskelion
2 duplicant
4 juggernaut
3 karn silver golem
1 trinisphere
4 sphere of resistance
2 thorn of amethyst
4 chalice of the void
4 tangle wire
4 smokestack
3 crucible of worlds
---60 cards---

SB 1 thorn of amethyst
SB 4 leyline of the void
SB 3 jester's cap
SB 3 razormane masticore
SB 1 triskelion
SB 3 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
---15 cards---

The number of Trikes/Dupes Maindeck depend on the expected metagame. I like Dupes a lot in the current Oath-Dreadnought-Tarmogoyf metagame. Mishra's Factories are fine in a such aggro-ish list, because of his ability to attack and block recursively, to attack vs Oath with no creature in play, and to go to 27 mana sources which is largely sufficient. The Trikes and Masticores are vs every Aggro deck, and especially Welders and Viashino Heretics that are nightmares. I would like to have room for the 4th Thorn in sideboard, maybe instead of the Trike, but it is my best weapon vs Welder and Confidant.

Vs Oath, I board in 1 Thorn, 3 Caps and 3 Tabernacles for 4 Juggies, 2 Trikes and 1 Karn.
Vs Flash : 3 Caps, 4 Leylines and 1 Thorn for 4 Juggies, 2 Dupes and 2 Trikes.
Vs Ichorid : 4 Leylines, 3 Tabernacles, 1 Thorn, and 3 Razormanes for 4 Tangles, 4 Smokestacks, 2 Dupes and 1 Juggy.
Vs Deeznought : 3 Razormanes and 1 Trike for 2 Thorns and 2 Spheres.
Vs Aggro-Shop : 3 Razormanes and 1 Trike for 2 Spheres and 2 Thorns, and maybe up to 3 Tabernacles for 2 Spheres and 1 Trinisphere.

Remember that if you expect the deck to be more agressive than this list, you should build an Aggro MUD which is completely different, since Smokestacks and Crucibles are the first cards to go out. This list is primarily Prison-oriented, with the ability to get full-prison or more aggro post board, depending on the matchups.



Here is the list I would suggest in a full-prison orientation of MUD, if options #1 and 2 are prefered :

1 strip mine
4 wasteland
4 mishra's workshop
1 tolarian academy
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
5 mox
1 black lotus
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
3 karn silver golem
3 powder keg
1 trinisphere
4 sphere of resistance
2 thorn of amethyst
4 chalice of the void
4 tangle wire
4 smokestack
3 crucible of worlds
3 orb of dreams
3 bottled cloister
---60 cards---

SB 2 thorn of amethyst
SB 4 leyline of the void
SB 3 razormane masticore
SB 3 duplicant
SB 3 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
---15 cards---

The mana base has 1 less land than the list before, but it is a bit more explosive, and the mana curve is lower, thanks to Powder Keg replacing Trike/Dupe. Powder Keg helps fighting Aggro.decks and Welders, that's why there are no Triskelion in sideboard. Orb of Dreams helps a lot vs Ichorid, since Leyline is not necessary : Orb of Dreams and Tabernacle (with 9 Spheres) are also game over even without Leyline. Bottled Cloister helps finding mana and lock components in mid/late game, and is logical with this more explosive mana base. Orb of Dreams also improves Flash and Oath's matchups, that's why I don't play Jester's Caps in sideboard, which is by the way less synergic with Orb of Dreams becomes coming into play tapped. Duplicants are important vs Oath if Oath of Druids is triggered : since opponent should be mana short, you should be able to trigger Oath at your turn to reveal Duplicant and destroy opponent's Tyran. Anyway, Duplicant remains your only kill vs Oath (with orchard's tokens).

Vs Oath, I board in 3 Tabernacles, 2 Thorns, and 2 Dupes for 3 Karns, 3 Cloisters and 1 Keg.
Vs Flash : 2 Thorns for 1 Karn and 1 Smokestack, and if on the draw, 4 Leylines for 3 Cloisters and another Smokestack.
Vs Ichorid : 4 Leylines, 3 Tabernacles, 2 Thorns, and 2 Razormanes for 4 Tangles, 4 Smokestacks and 3 Cloisters.
Vs Deeznought : 3 Razormanes and 3 Dupes for 2 Thorns and 4 Spheres, and maybe 3 Tabernacles for 3 Orb of Dreams.
Vs Aggro-Shop : 3 Razormanes and 3 Dupes for 4 Spheres and 2 Thorns, and maybe up to 3 Tabernacles for 1 Trinisphere and 2 Bottled Cloister/Orb of Dreams.

I'm not totally satisfied with Bottled Cloister, even if it fits quite well in the deck's orientation. But I side it out so often...



About each list's pros and cons, I would say that choosing one of the orientations is dependant from the expected metagame (firt list vs Random or Aggro metagame, and second one vs a more competitive Flash/Oath/Ichorid orientated metagame) and moreover, it depends of your preferences!

Thanks everyone who got enough patience to read all of this!

[Akuma]

@Kotch

Thank you for writing such an excellent post. Very informative, your English is great.

Whenever I have tested with/against MUD, I have mostly been unimpressed with Metalworker. I agree with you auto-include core.

[madmanmike25]

Very well thought out post, a few contentions;

I agree with most of your core cards.  I simply do not feel that Crucible is an auto-include for all MUD lists however.  I still believe that Metalworker and Crucible are the most interchangeable cards in MUD.  Both solidify your manabase for the cost 3 mana.  Metalworker should be included if the deck calls for it.

Anyway, Metalworker should NEVER be a first turn drop, regarding the current metagame speed. Starting with Metalworker on turn 1 is ALWAYS worse than Sphere, Orb of Dreams, or even Smokestack... because it says « hurry up to kill me while I do nothing, because very soon I will maybe lock you! »

Not entirely true.  I am quite comfortable dropping a turn 1 Metalworker and CotV@0 (even better if I can set it @1).  Basically the cards in your deck should tell you if you need to play with Metalworker or Crucible.  A turn 1 Metalworker leads to a really easy turn 2 Jester's Cap when you can't get 4 mana in your opening hand.  Jester's Cap is some good right now.  Some games Metalworker is a must-counter while other games he is FoW bait.  But like I said, it just depends on the cards in your deck and your playstyle.  I just do not think that you can presume to say that playing with him is "wrong" in Prison variations of MUD.  The issue of including/omitting Metalworker is just not that black and white.....it's more of a brown.

Also, some would say that in a deck with no equipment Juggs is just a vanilla creature whereas Dupes, Trikes, and to some extent Angels have far greater utility that help in winning the game than just turning sideways.  Metalworker allows you to play with those creatures with ease.  There are other advantages to Metalworker of course, but I don't need to list them since I'm not claiming that Metalworker is better than Crucible.  It is merely my position that he could be considered integral in the core cards for MUD as well.

1 strip mine
4 wasteland
4 mishra's workshop
1 tolarian academy
3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
3 mishra's factory
5 mox
1 black lotus
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
2 triskelion
2 duplicant
4 juggernaut
3 karn silver golem
1 trinisphere
4 sphere of resistance
2 thorn of amethyst
4 chalice of the void
4 tangle wire
4 smokestack
3 crucible of worlds
---60 cards---

The problem I have when playing MUD is stalling.  Translation:  No draw.  Even with (unequipped)Juggs you can still stall since drawing into him later on isn't all that hot.  Many games with MUD you have that 'hump' where you seem to draw into unnecessary lands/mana when you really needed something, anything else.  I would really suggest some form of draw in this list.  3 Karn is nice though, he's like an entire Aggro deck rolled into one creature.

I am not quite sure how having only 2 Dupes is going to be effective when you have no draw in the deck.  I  liked 2 Dupes in Red Shop decks since you can Bazaar into them and/or weld them in, but here it seems you are just looking to accidentally bump into them precisely when you need to.  I prefer Trikes main since they are more proactive(unless you want a 2/4 for 6cc) and can easily trade with Goyf.  I can't see how Dupe would even really matter vs. Tyrant.  But that's just a matter of preference(same as with Metalworker).

Vs Ichorid : 4 Leylines, 3 Tabernacles, 1 Thorn, and 3 Razormanes for 4 Tangles, 4 Smokestacks, 2 Dupes and 1 Juggy.

No Cap's?  RFG'ing Bridges/Ichorids is HUGE.

Another SB card that's been effective is Needle naming Bazaar and Welder.  CotV@1 is awesome, but that doesn't make a few 1cc cards and Chalice mutually exclusive.  On a side note, I have had no luck in convincing people that Oath is now an activated ability.

Thanks for posting this, there's a lot of valuable info on MUD.  Again, for the most part I agree with your core cards.

Mike

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

madmanmike 25 sugested adding some sort of draw engine. I'd strongly suggest using top+bazaar. It provides you with 5 cards of vision every turn and thats 5 turns ahead of where you'd be without it.

[Everrid1234]

The prob about this draw engine is: You need 2 parts. AND there is no card advantage. Did you test it with good results?
Imo opinion (regarding the high redundancy in this deck) a quantitative draw engine would be better (if there was no mass bounce).

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

The prob about this draw engine is: You need 2 parts. AND there is no card advantage. Did you test it with good results?
Imo opinion (regarding the high redundancy in this deck) a quantitative draw engine would be better (if there was no mass bounce).

Yes, my test results have been great with this engine; including a top 8 placement at ICBM open#1 (with a near top 8 by team mate piloting the same list). I think you need to put less focus on physical cards, and more on virtual card advantage. This is shop's game, that’s why in plays chalice and 2balls. It doesn’t matter if your opponent has a full grip, if none on the spells are playable. This can some times be a double edges sword, that’s why filtering with top bazaar is great. A trade of 3 cards you'll never play for 2 you will is 2 FREE cards, in a way. As for the top and bazaar being something where you "need 2 parts" I couldn't disagree more. I believe vroman has called bazaar "the best draw engine in vintage, and that’s saying something. Top alone is very good as well, it comes out VERY early with a play like: shop, chalice 0, top, 2ball (a very common play/reasonable play). This play also gives you 3 more option turn 2, and shop loves its options. A card like bottled cloister doesn't really allow either of these plays in quite the same name. I often find this card clogging up my hand while I’m trying to fight through spheres and thorns to play it, limiting the number of play I am able to make that turn. Also this card typical come down late (even if this card is castable turn 1-3 I'd rather play the lock piece) game being more of a win more card. Also you need to consider at the casting cost of this card doesn't take effect till next turn. Where as bazaar costing nothing works immediately and top with and is the same, not to mention the variety of top tricks you can play.
I'd really suggest you test the top bazaar combo; it’s won me a lot of games. If it doesn't quite fit your play style, so be it.

[dawnstrider]

hax you have interested me in this top bazaar combo... would you be willing to post a list here? with the closest tournament for me being two states away and i plan on making one in june. I am contemplating Uba/stax and would like to see your opinion on what you might play if you were going to that.

[Kotch]

I agree with most of your core cards.  I simply do not feel that Crucible is an auto-include for all MUD lists however.  I still believe that Metalworker and Crucible are the most interchangeable cards in MUD.  Both solidify your manabase for the cost 3 mana.  Metalworker should be included if the deck calls for it.

Anyway, Metalworker should NEVER be a first turn drop, regarding the current metagame speed. Starting with Metalworker on turn 1 is ALWAYS worse than Sphere, Orb of Dreams, or even Smokestack... because it says « hurry up to kill me while I do nothing, because very soon I will maybe lock you! »

Not entirely true.  I am quite comfortable dropping a turn 1 Metalworker and CotV@0 (even better if I can set it @1).  Basically the cards in your deck should tell you if you need to play with Metalworker or Crucible.  A turn 1 Metalworker leads to a really easy turn 2 Jester's Cap when you can't get 4 mana in your opening hand.  Jester's Cap is some good right now.  Some games Metalworker is a must-counter while other games he is FoW bait.  But like I said, it just depends on the cards in your deck and your playstyle.  I just do not think that you can presume to say that playing with him is "wrong" in Prison variations of MUD.  The issue of including/omitting Metalworker is just not that black and white.....it's more of a brown.

I partially agree with your argument about Metalworker and Crucible as interchangeable cards. I totally agree that they both "solidify" your mana base for the same cost. But I don't think that the current metagame expects you to solidify your mana base. That is a pertinent argument in a heavy fishy and land-disruptive field. But in a Flash/GaT metagame, you just want to disrupt your opponent. I think that Crucible is better in this goal because allowing you to recur your disruptive lands. No need to have a solid mana base in a such metagame. Moreover, Metalworker is a bit more vulnerable as a 1/2 creature. Anyway I agree that if you want to play some more expensive cards like Jester's Cap, Metalworker helps them to be cast earlier.

The main argument I would say for Crucible instead of Metalworker is that crucible's power is increasing with the length of the game, while Metalworker is getting worse. I explain my point of view...
There are three categories of disruptive cards in MUD : the cards that have an immediate disruptive effect on opponent and keep their effect all game long (Chalice of the Void's incredible power in MUD!), the cards that have an immediate disruptive effect on the opponent BUT that become worse as the game is going on (Spheres, Tangles, Thorn, Wasteland, get worse as opponent gets more permanents on board), and the cards that compensate these last ones, by a power increasing as the game is going on (Smokestack and Crucible). Aggro MUDs don't need to play these last two cards because it just wants to slow down opponent with immediate-effect disruption, while attacking with fatties before that the effect of disruptive cards become inefficient for the opponent. But Prison-oriented MUD really needs Smokestack as well as Crucible to take advantage on the long term, and to allow the first immediate-effect cards to be still powerfull in the mid/late game. The problem I found with Prison-MUD is that it is really dependant of Smokestack to establish a total lock on opponent. Hopefully, the current metagame often allows MUD to get a full lock online just with Sphere/Crucible/Wasteland, thanks to the vulnerable opponents' mana bases composed of very few basic lands.
Taking more advantage on opponent's board on the long term is my best argument for Crucible instead of Metalworker.

But I still agree that if your goal is NOT to take a total board advantage on the long term, by playing Jester's Cap for example, then Crucible's utility is questionnable. For example, I used to play a MUD deck two years ago with all of the core cards but only 2 Crucibles (and no Thorn yet), with 4 Metalworker, 4 Jester's Cap and 3 Mindslaver, all maindeck, to beat Gifts and Combo decks (with a transformationnal full-aggro sideboard), and at that moment it was great to solidify your mana base vs fish decks AND to cast a turn 2 or 3 Jester's Cap or Mindslaver for the win. But I think that the current metagame is too fast for these cards.

Anyway, you are right when you say that including/omitting Metalworker is not a black/white choice. There are some other possible Prison orientations that don't need to get a full board advantage. I should have precised that my personnal preference of Prison MUD is the total board advantage.

Also, some would say that in a deck with no equipment Juggs is just a vanilla creature whereas Dupes, Trikes, and to some extent Angels have far greater utility that help in winning the game than just turning sideways.  Metalworker allows you to play with those creatures with ease.  There are other advantages to Metalworker of course, but I don't need to list them since I'm not claiming that Metalworker is better than Crucible.  It is merely my position that he could be considered integral in the core cards for MUD as well.

That's right, playing more Utility creatures with Metalworker seems to be very synergic, like playing cheaper lock components without Metalworker. Both options depending on personnal preferences, it seems difficult to decide which is more pertinent than the other. Not just black or white like you said!

The problem I have when playing MUD is stalling.  Translation:  No draw.  Even with (unequipped)Juggs you can still stall since drawing into him later on isn't all that hot.  Many games with MUD you have that 'hump' where you seem to draw into unnecessary lands/mana when you really needed something, anything else.  I would really suggest some form of draw in this list.  3 Karn is nice though, he's like an entire Aggro deck rolled into one creature.

Correct, I actually prefer my second list including Cloister as a draw engine.
By the way, Powder Keg and Orb of Dreams seem to fit very well in my long-term board-total-control plan. Even if the reason Cloister is played is that I haven't identified a better draw engine yet.

I am not quite sure how having only 2 Dupes is going to be effective when you have no draw in the deck.  I  liked 2 Dupes in Red Shop decks since you can Bazaar into them and/or weld them in, but here it seems you are just looking to accidentally bump into them precisely when you need to.  I prefer Trikes main since they are more proactive(unless you want a 2/4 for 6cc) and can easily trade with Goyf.  I can't see how Dupe would even really matter vs. Tyrant.  But that's just a matter of preference(same as with Metalworker).

Like I said, the number of Trikes/Dupes are metagame choices, instead of 2+2 you can read : 4 anti-creatures slots. About Duplicant vs Oath, I meant that your opponent sometimes manages to get an early Oath of Druids online, and triggers it at his upkeep to get Tyrant on board. But in that situation you still get at least two options : you can deal with the token and use Oath's effect on your turn revealing Duplicant (with much luck on game 1, but after sideboarding only Dupes should stay in), or you can hardcast Duplicant, both options at the condition that you got some disruption on board (1 Sphere and 1 Tangle can be enough!), preventing opponent from playing any spell to use Tyrant's ability. Of course, this is a tough situation, but it already happened to me, and not only once.
Anyway, if I would prefer Triskelion in an Aggro-orientation of Prison MUD, I would still prefer Duplicant as a sideboard card in a Full-Prison MUD, because of his ability to deal in a more efficient and versatile way, with Deeznought, Oath and Shop creatures (think Tarmogoyf, Dreadnought, Jotun Grunt, Juggy, Razormane Masticore, Heretic) whereas Triskelion will have much more difficulties to deal with creatures who have toughness more than 3.

Vs Ichorid : 4 Leylines, 3 Tabernacles, 1 Thorn, and 3 Razormanes for 4 Tangles, 4 Smokestacks, 2 Dupes and 1 Juggy.

No Cap's?  RFG'ing Bridges/Ichorids is HUGE.

Another SB card that's been effective is Needle naming Bazaar and Welder.  CotV@1 is awesome, but that doesn't make a few 1cc cards and Chalice mutually exclusive.  On a side note, I have had no luck in convincing people that Oath is now an activated ability.

I still prefer Leyline since it is your only way to stay alive on turn 0 vs Flash, and hoses Ichorid as well. I am aware that enchantments are weaker than artifacts vs Ichorid (Reverent Silence costing 0), but being killed on turn 0 by Flash is awesome! Especially since that he knows that you cannot do anything on his first turn, and so won't try to protect his combo by drawing/searching more cards.
About Needle naming Welder, since I do play Keg maindeck, I cut every solution vs this card. That might be a mistake, but vs Red-Shop.decks you also get CotV at 1 which is really painfull for your opponent. And there is still Razormane Masticore and Duplicant and eventually Trike.
If I could have room in my sideboard for two more cards, I would certainly cut 1 Duplicant to get 3 Needles. I would love to get a such arsenal vs Ichorid!
About Needle naming Oath, that was a joke, right?

Thanks for posting this, there's a lot of valuable info on MUD.  Again, for the most part I agree with your core cards.

Mike

Thanks! I also like your arguments a lot since they make me think about things on a different manner.

madmanmike 25 sugested adding some sort of draw engine. I'd strongly suggest using top+bazaar. It provides you with 5 cards of vision every turn and thats 5 turns ahead of where you'd be without it.

The prob about this draw engine is: You need 2 parts. AND there is no card advantage. Did you test it with good results?
Imo opinion (regarding the high redundancy in this deck) a quantitative draw engine would be better (if there was no mass bounce).

Yes, my test results have been great with this engine; including a top 8 placement at ICBM open#1 (with a near top 8 by team mate piloting the same list). I think you need to put less focus on physical cards, and more on virtual card advantage. This is shop's game, that’s why in plays chalice and 2balls. It doesn’t matter if your opponent has a full grip, if none on the spells are playable. This can some times be a double edges sword, that’s why filtering with top bazaar is great. A trade of 3 cards you'll never play for 2 you will is 2 FREE cards, in a way. As for the top and bazaar being something where you "need 2 parts" I couldn't disagree more. I believe vroman has called bazaar "the best draw engine in vintage, and that’s saying something. Top alone is very good as well, it comes done VERY early with a play like: shop, chalice 0, top, 2ball (a very common play/reasonable play). This play also gives you 3 more option turn 2, and shop loves its options. A card like bottled cloister doesn't really allow either of these plays in quite the same name. I often find this card clogging up my hand while I’m trying to fight through spheres and thorns to play it, limiting the number of play I am able to make that turn. Also this card typical come down late (even if this card is castable turn 1-3 I'd rather play the lock piece) game being more of a win more card. Also you need to consider at the casting cost of this card doesn't take effect till next turn. Where as bazaar costing nothing works immediately and top with and is the same, not to mention the variety of top tricks you can play.
I'd really suggest you test the top bazaar combo; it’s won me a lot of games. If it doesn't quite fit your play style, so be it.

This top 8 placement at ICBM open was with a colored version including Confidant and Welder, right? With these two cards, Bazaar and Sensei Divining Top are of course infinitely better! Moreover, you played 3 black tutors and 2 fetchlands (with 3 Crucible), helping Top to be powerfull by itself... So I think that your arguments are not suitable to a MUD version. Moreover, playing Top decreases CotV at 1's huge power in MUD.

I do agree that Bazaar is a huge drawer, even in a MUD version without Cloister or Uba Mask or Top to help it. I like its ability to filter draws, and its long-term output with Crucible of Worlds. But I still beleive that if you want to play Bazaar as a 3 or a 4 of, you should really add Welder, both cards are made to work together! But, like I said before, playing a red version makes you partially loose MUD's explosive mana base and CotV-at-1's huge power.

The other card that perfectly suits with Bazaar's negative effect is Uba Mask, but like I said :

The other problem with this combo is that it takes AT LEAST 7 slots (4 Bazaar and 3 Uba), and I even think that 3 Bottled Cloister should be included to the combo, as Cloister + Bazaar and Cloister + Uba are good, allowing more mini-combos and draw effects. But that requires a total of 10 slots! MUD does need a second breath for his late game, but not at this price.

Only Uba Mask might have a potentially immediate disruptive effect on opponent, and it's power is less effective since so many tutors  are played (Merchant Scroll).

Since there are not any really good drawer for MUD yet, I like to play with only 3 Cloisters for the mid-and-late game, keeping a high consistancy of disruptive artifacts instead of too many conditionnal drawers. But maybe Bazaar of Baghdad could be tested in place of these Cloisters, even without Top or Uba to compensate Bazaar's discard effect. Because I do agree that MUD should rather have a qualitative than a quantitative draw engine.