1-Land Belcher

[madmanmike25]

Ok, I gave my self a little project last weekend.  I wanted to build a deck that used the new Pacts and Street Wraith.  Clearly to utilize these cards, the deck HAS to be fast.  The risk of losing must be offset by increased speed.

Here is an analogy.  Have you ever been to Las Vegas?  I have been playing at Blackjack tables and every so often something that always suprised me would happen.  Some random guy would come up, watch the table, then place $500(or more) on a single hand of Blackjack.  These individuals would either walk away with nothing, or double their money at the drop of a hat.  The decklist you are about to see does just that.  It will either win or scoop.  Those Blackjack players never took insurance, and this deck offers none.



RISKY BUSINESS (AKA 1-Land Belcher)

4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Tinker
1 Time Twister
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Channel
4 Chromatic Star

4 Street Wraith
4 Serum Powder
4 Pact of Negation

5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Grim Monolith
4 ESG (elvish)
4 Summoner's Pact
4 SSG (simian)
3 Tinder Wall
4 Land Grant
1 Tropical Island


This list is not something I just threw together.  It has changed so much from my original lists and has gotten faster as well.  Again, this is not for someone who actually wants to play a thought out, fun game of Magic.  This deck is designed to win on turn 1, or on the upkeep of turn 2.  The slowest I have ever won was on the 3rd turn and that was without the Pact spells.  It is a pure combo deck, and as such, you have to know how to mulligan properly.  And yes, you will get the random losses associated with a combo deck.

You will notice the lack of Yawgmoth's Will.  My original build ran 4 Dark Rituals and Will, but it was just too random.  Will is only a bomb when it is set up, there were games where casting it only increased my mana by one.

There are only SIX colored spells not including Tinder Wall.  That is a huge plus and helps consistency issues.  G mana is very easy to get now, so the Wall is almost a non-issue.


Here is my experience with the deck:

The Pact's do not allow you to make use of EtW.  In my other builds of Belcher, I had a love/hate relationship with EtW.  I frequently found myself able to cast it turn 1, but with a storm count of 1-2 thanks to the Spirit Guides.  Plus, you need an attack phase, chances are you will lose by then when playing this deck (if you so choose to).
 
I tried Tendrils of Agony.  And I tried it again.  It seemed like it would fit, but it just didn't work for me.  It is very difficult to make a storm count of 9 with 7 cards.

Sometimes you have to accept defeat.  What do MTG decks do?  They win or lose(and in some cases draw).  This deck just gets to the point faster.  You will have to accept the random losses along with the random wins.  This may be difficult for some people to grasp, some of you may already hate this deck/concept.  Sometimes you just die due to the Pact's, sometimes a FoW will ruin you.  This deck tries to maximize the times when you are on the play, that was my goal (keep that in mind).

The new cards:

Street Wraith:  Since I'm trying to win ASAP the loss of life is irrelevant.  Having 2 in the opening 7 can cause complications unless you have Lotus and/or a 'bomb'.  In this deck the 'bombs' are Belcher, DT, Tinker, Wheel, Twister, Jar, and Recall.  Vampiric Tutor seemed like an auto-include, especially with 4 Chromatic Stars.  In testing, it only worked sometimes and this deck needs to be as consistent as it can to outweigh the risk.

Serum Powder:  It suits the deck in its balls-to-the-wall approach.  I wonder why I never tried this in my other builds of Belcher?

Summoner's Pact:  Channel just got a whole lot easier to cast.  If you already have ESG in hand go get Tinder Wall, it is the exact same increase in mana.  This pact has never been dead for me.

Pact of Negation:  It's like a FoW without losing a blue card or losing 1 life.  Use it when you need to protect a bomb.  Yes, you have a chance to lose the game after casting a Draw7.  Remember you can always activate Belcher in response during your Upkeep phase since it triggers.

The bad news:
Null Rod>this deck (I wonder how many will quote this?).  I know this.  I also know that the risk is still worth playing this deck.  Decks that run Null Rod AND NOT FoW are at a disadvantage when on the draw.  This deck is more worried about a well placed FoW, hence the inclusion of Pact of Negation.  Even with Chalice @ 0, you still have ESG,SSG, and Land Grant for mana as well as several 1cc options. 

Try this deck out when a buddy says "Let's play some Magic!" and you really don't want to.  Not many people you play this against will KNOW how important it is to Mulligan into a FoW against you.

Remember, my goal was to create the fastest deck I could using all 12 of the new cards, keep that in mind.  I understand that some of you will hate this since it offers hardly any resilience, and that is okay.  No, there isn't any bounce.  If you want a real game, go play a Gifts mirror match and see who dares to cast Ancestral Recall first.  If you have a need for speed and want to try a Belcher deck hopped up on Mountain Dew and Red Bull, give this a whirl.

Thanks for reading, and good luck, you'll need it.

Mike


"Deck Concept" is too vague for a thread title; it doesn't say anything! I changed it to be more specific, but feel free to pick something else, as long as it gives people some idea of what's in the thread.
-Jacob

*Edit:  Actually, thanks Jacob.  My original intent was to see and discuss if all 12 new cards would work in a single deck.  Intuition told me to try them in Belcher.  The more I tested, the more it seems they kinda do work in this deck.  I was already considering changing the title, you are just too fast for me!

[madmanmike25]

Ok, just thought I would share a few results here.  I goldfished 10 hands on the play.  Just ask if you don't get some of my card abbreviations. 
SP=Summoner's Pact
PoN=Pact of Negation

Game 1:
Tropical Island, Mana Vault, Jet, Tinder, Pearl, Serum Powder, ESG.  Use Powder to get...
Sapphire, Serum Powder, PoN, Belcher, Street Wraith, Crypt, SP.
I keep, Wraith gets me a Sol Ring.  I am able to Belch for the win on my turn 2 upkeep.

Game 2:
2 Belchers, 2 Land Grant, Ruby, Vault, Serum.  I more than happily use Serum to get...
Wheel of Fortune, PoN, SSG, Chromatic Star, Petal, LED, Jet.  I cast Wheel for
Belcher, Emerald, Sol Ring, 2 ESG, Serum, Wraith.  Wraith gets Time Twister.  I belch during my upkeep and sadly do only one damage, not even a Taiga would have saved me.  I finish the job turn 2.

Game 3:
Lotus, Recall, Chrome, SSG, ESG, SP, Belcher.  I cast Recall for Tinder Wall, PoN, SP.  I cast and activate Belcher on turn 1 for lethal damage.

Game 4:
3 Land Grant, Grim Monolith, Sapphire, ESG, Wraith.  Egads, I take a Mulligan for
Lotus, SSG, PoN, Serum, Memory Jar, Star.  I decide to Mull again but peek at the next card.  Its an ESG, o well.  I consider this a losing hand anyway.  My next Mull was worse

Game 5:
Sol, Wraith, Land Grant, Vault, Belcher, Tinder, Grim Monolith.  Wraith gets PoN.  I Activate Belcher turn 2 on my upkeep.

Game 6:
2 Belchers, Tinker, Pearl, Sapphire, Sol, SP.  Cast Belcher and do lethal damage on my turn 2 upkeep.

Game 7:
2 Stars, Belcher, ESG, Tinder, Recall, Wheel.  ESG->Tinder->Star for U mana and draw a Memory Jar.  Recall gets me Land Grant, Tinder, Sapphire.  I cast Wheel for..
Land Grant, Chrome, 2 SP, Emerald, Serum, Twister.  Damn.  But turn 2, I draw Lotus and cast Twister for- Channel, SSG, Belcher, DT, SP, Tinker, Star.  I DT for PoN.  Since I Land Granted and had an Emerald, I cast Channel and Belch for the win on turn 2.

Game 8: 
Tropical, Sol, PoN, 2 SP, Star, Sapphire.  I Mull since 5 mana and 1 unknown card won't cut it.  I get Jar, Tinker, Twister, Vault, Ruby, LED.  My next Mull gets jack squat, I lose.

Game 9: 
Belcher, 2 SSG, Monolith, 1 PoN, Tropical Isle, Serum.  I use Serum for...
Jar, 2 PoN, Belcher, Recall, Wraith, Lotus.  Me likey.  Wraith sadly gets a Serum, but Recall gets me 2 ESGs and Sol Ring.  I am able to win on turn 2 of my upkeep.

Game 10:  Sol, Tinder, Ruby, ESG, SSG, PoN, SP.  I Mull into..
Ruby, Monolith, PoN, Wraith, Belcher, Sapphire.  Wraith gets Emerald.  I cast Belcher then activate turn 2 on my upkeep.


That's only 10 games, but it is a decent example of how the deck works.  This was done with real cards with proxies in place of the new ones.  I mana shuffled EVERY new game and EVERY Mulligan.  Technically it is possible to lose all 10 games with bad draws, just as it is possible to win all 10 with godhands.  I am not ignorant enough to claim this deck will win 80% of the time while on the play.  Here is a Disclaimer:

*Results not typical.  Your individual weight loss may vary.  Weight loss based on diet AND exercise.  Consult your physician before starting any weight loss treatment.  This product is not designed to cure, treat, or prevent any disease. Stop eating cake.


If you see any errors, point them out.  I wrote down all the relative info to keep on hand in such a case.

I didn't want to goldfish on the draw as 8 cards would give bogus results when not confronted with any disruption.


Let me ask:

1.  Is this deck(type) Viable in Vintage?  Why?  Do not read this as:"Do you want to play this deck?" 
2.  Do you feel that the speed/power of the deck can compensate for the inclusion of the Pact's?
3.  Do you feel my decklist is optimal?  What card would you omit/include?

Surely someone has to have a comment, either negative or worse.

[ReAnimator]

Surely someone has to have a comment, either negative or worse.

I think the reason you haven't got many replies is because everyone thought exactly what you were thinking and started testing this exact deck as soon as the cards were all spoiled.  It is sort of an obvious and stock build/idea and the fact that you haven't got much feedback probably means that all the teams haven't come to any solid conclusions as to whether or not this is the next big thing and whether they want to keep thier tweaked builds underwraps.

I really appreciate the effort you have put into this so far and i found it fun and interesting to read, i just haven't done any testing with this and can't see anything theoretical that would help you out at the moment, and a bunch of other people probably feel the same way.

I don't really know if PoN really helps you out against the 3 big cards that hurt this deck most; Chalice, Rod, Needle. That is the only real insight i have.

good luck, and keep writing.

[Aardshark]

For the sake if encouraging dialogue*:

If replicable, these results seem pretty disturbing to me.

An 80% turn 1 belcher --> turn 1/2 win is essentially as fast meandeck tendrils, without the overwhelming playskill barrier (i.e. you don't need to be a supercomputer to play this deck well). That half of your games were protected wins (backed up by PoN) really pushes this over the edge in my mind.

It would be interesting to know how this deck performs on the draw versus disruption.  I'd love to see the results with 8 cards versus FoW, and also versus CotV on the board.  8 cards versus FoW + Daze might also be interesting.  If your results are typical then the matchup versus FoW alone should prove solid. 

If you can beat CotV and double disruption even occasionally I'd say you have a winner.  I also expect that With all the hype around ichorid (compare the activity in that thread to this one) people may scew their maindeck and sideboard hate post Foresight against the graveyard and leave some/all of their null rods at home.  Plus, you can outrace ichorid on the play (on the draw I expect unmask will wreck you with your low threat density, and I am concerned about your game versus CotV).

Stax (without null rod) and ichorid would be favorable overall I'd think.  On the play you should almost always win, and on the draw I expect you'll win at least some of the time.

Versus standard gifts and other drain decks, I'd expect your PoNs will be able to force through disruption on turn 2 most of the time

I'd say your biggest worry in the expected meta will be long and meandeck variants, which should be faster than you.  On the play they will usually win on their turn 2 before you untap and win most of the time (assuming they don't just duress you out of the game turn 1). On the draw they will win on turn one before you untap with belcher on the board (even through PoN) a significant portion of the time.  Ritual gifts could be similar, though slightly less problematic (since its a little slower your win % on the play should be better).

Fish packing null rodd will also be a problem obviously.

Overall, this seems like a solid choice, especially for a (relatively) weaker player whose strong enough to get to the top 8, and is looking to minimize interaction and difficult decisions versus stronger opponents once there.  For this same reason, howver, I'd be surprised to see the teams adopt this.

A couple questions about the deck:
1) Are lotus + petal + stars + jet really enough to support Demonic Tutor? You didn't seem to have any trouble casting it and I'm a little surprised.
2) Wouldn't Demonic Consultation be better than Demonic Tutor?  I don't know if you want (or can support) both, but if I had to chose I think I'd want consultation.

Nice work, all in all.

(*A caveat--I haven't tested this at all myself, so all comments are armchair.  I apologize in advance if I've said anything stupid.)

[madmanmike25]

I think the reason you haven't got many replies is because everyone thought exactly what you were thinking and started testing this exact deck as soon as the cards were all spoiled. 

Ah, good.  I was worried that people would think this deck was 'unfun'. 

You are right, it pretty much is an obvious build, I only hope others have put in Serum Powder as well.  I'm sure I wasn't the only one who really really really wanted Dark Ritual to fit.

I really appreciate the effort you have put into this so far and i found it fun and interesting to read

Thanks.  I try to keep things 'light' and not focus entirely on math/statistics and boring things.  It is a game after all.  This was fun for me to play for hours on Saturday, even with a hangover. 

I don't really know if PoN really helps you out against the 3 big cards that hurt this deck most; Chalice, Rod, Needle. That is the only real insight i have.

The most common card that hinders me is FoW.  Period.  It's easy to search and see how many decks are packing this bad ass counterspell.  The most detrimental is easily Null Rod/Needle.  I'm not afraid of Needle MD, as it is not very common(yet).  Chalice at 0 is ouchie for sure.  But, you do have SSG, ESG, Land Grant, Tropical Isle, Sol, Vault, Tinder, and Grim to at least not be TOTALLY screwed.

Yeah, this is an all-in deck.  It should be treated as such.

It would be interesting to know how this deck performs on the draw versus disruption. 

Truly.  If your opponent doesn't lay down Rod and goes Delta, Mox, then passes, you have an even better chance for a win with the extra card.  It depends on how good their hand is.  I can't imagine many would want to playtest against this though. 

Stax (without null rod) and ichorid would be favorable overall I'd think.  On the play you should almost always win, and on the draw I expect you'll win at least some of the time.

Good observation.  Those are truly favorable matchups I can imagine.

Overall, this seems like a solid choice, especially for a (relatively) weaker player whose strong enough to get to the top 8, and is looking to minimize interaction and difficult decisions versus stronger opponents once there.  For this same reason, howver, I'd be surprised to see the teams adopt this.

Don't be hasty there.  I don't think we should imply that only weaker players would opt to try this type of deck out.  True there are less important decisions to mess up, but there have been hands where if I was willing to wait one more turn and be less aggressive I would have won.  I would say there are more playstyle decisions.  You are right about the minimal interaction.

I'm not on any team so I am not concerned if a team gives this deck the 'ok'.  I am perfectly happy discussing Magic with other 'commoners' such as myself.

A couple questions about the deck:
1) Are lotus + petal + stars + jet really enough to support Demonic Tutor? You didn't seem to have any trouble casting it and I'm a little surprised.

Yeah, DT is good.  Maybe I got lucky, but so far I have not seen too much difficulty casting it.  If I were to toss out a random statistic completely made up on the spot and devoid of meaning, I would say that DT fetches me a Black Lotus 99.99% of the time.  This can mean the difference between having enough mana for a Belcher(DT->Lotus=1 mana increase) or not.  If you don't have colored mana, but have a 3cc bomb and Star(to get the colored mana) puts you one mana shy of casting it, DT is the way to go as +1 mana and a color-fixer.

2) Wouldn't Demonic Consultation be better than Demonic Tutor?  I don't know if you want (or can support) both, but if I had to chose I think I'd want consultation.

My beer-gut instincts tell me not to increase the Black spell count.  Consulting for Lotus is bad.  Consulting for Belcher is the most useful play.  I will test this in place of DT and see if making Belcher cost 5 mana is going to be worth it.  It is highly unlikely your last 4 cards will be Belchers and prevent you from reaching 20 dmg.  Actually, it may depend on how many Serums you use and Belchers you removed.  It would suck to remove 2 Belchers, but not the Tropical Island.



Funny, this deck has only one card that CAN make use of the GY.  Time Twister.  Even then, It's only to get 7 new cards.  It is interesting to me to have a deck that isn't really affected by GY hate.


Thanks for the input guys.  Let me know if you have any more questions. 

Mike

[madmanmike25]

Ok I tested 10 more games in a row.  Again, I mana-shuffled when I mulliganed or used Time Twister.

Game1:
2 PoN, Tropical, Wraith, ESG, Serum, SSG.  Used Serum. for...
2 SP, LED, Belcher, Tinder, PoN, Vault.  It doesnt get much better than that.  I activate for 20 damage Turn 1.

Game 2: 
2 PoN, Sapphire, Land Grant, Ruby, Tinder, Serum.  Use Serum to get..
2 SSG, Tinker, SP, Wraith, Petal, Belcher.  I shouldn't keep this, but to experiment I do, Wraith gets a Tinder, and I pass.   I wanted a mox/any artifact.  I topdeck a Recall and get SP, Channel, Vault.  I cast Channel/Belch and do 2 freakin' damage.  I win Turn 3 upkeep, which I consider a loss.

Game 3:
Channel, Petal, Tinder, Crypt, Vault, Belcher(yes, I mana-shuffled).  I do 20 dmg Turn 2 upkeep, though I could have drawn.

Game 4:
Recall, Chrome, Belcher, Crypt, Powder, Petal, Wraith.  Recall gets LED, SSG, ESG.  Wraith gets Star.  I win Turn 1.

Game 5:
PoN, Belcher, Star, Petal, Chrome, ESG, Ruby.  I take a risk and keep casting Belcher turn 1 and Chroming PoN.  I topdeck ESG and activate for 16 dmg!!  So close, yet so far away.  Topdeck Wraith, and he gets a SSG.  I win Turn 3, another loss.

Game 6:
Belcher, PoN, Star, Tinder, Petal(Petal is stalking me I think), Sapphire, Monolith.  I MULL for
Petal (see?) ESG, Tinder, Twister, Serum, Jet.  R floating and Twister gets me..
Tinker, Star, 2 Wraiths, SP, Channel,  ESG.  Wraiths get Belcher, LandGrant.  Grant, SP, Channel, Belch win Turn 1.

Game 7:
Star, Serum, ESG, SSG, Chrome, Jet, Vault (no Petal?)  I use Serum for...
Land Grant, ESG, Twister, Pearl, Channel, Belcher, SP.  Grant+ESG->Channel-> Belch= Win Turn 1.  I can cast Twister next turn as well if one gets countered.

Game 8:
Star, SP, Sapphire, Chrome, SSG, Tinder, Serum.  Use Serum for..
Serum(a new stalker?), DT, ESG, 2 Land Grant, Wheel, Vault...fugly.  I use Serum again for
ESG, Emerald, Petal(miss me?), SP, Ruby, LED, Jet.  Cripes! I Mull again for...
Tinker, Crypt, Serum, Ruby, Belcher, SSG.  I will be DAMNED before I shuffle again.  DAMNED I say.  I cast Belcher and pass.  Topdeck Jar and I do a whopping 4 dmg.  Win on turn 3 upkeep, another loss.

Game 9:
2 Belcher, 2 SP, ESG, Wraith, Serum.  Yet again, I use Serum for...
2 SP, Star, PoN, Serum!!!, Wraith, Belcher....someone is screwing with me.  I use Serum to remove my THIRD Belcher and get....
2 ESG, 2 PoN, Tropical, Land Grant, Ruby.  Yay, I Mull for....
SSG, Crypt, Sol, Emerald, Petal, DT.  I have options here with DT ;Tinker, Twister, Wheel, or Belcher??  I just get Belcher since I'm tired of shuffling and win Turn 2 upkeep.   *NOTE Demonic Consultation would have sucked here.  More on that later.

Game 10:
I looked at my notes and I screwed up.  I used Serum to remove Tropical, then proceeded to use Land Grant with the next 7 cards for mana.  Note to self: Don't be lazy and always get the damn Tropical.  This is the only time it happened though.  I guess all those Mulligans/Shuffling messed me up.

I also tested other hands with Consultation in place of DT.
Consult can get only the 4-of's, mainly Belcher and Land Grant.  I can't see someone Consulting for an ESG/SSG/Tinder merely as a mana fixer.

DT can get all the above, in addition to Twister, Wheel, Tinker, Recall, and my fave, Lotus.  I'm pretty sure DT is the superior choice from my testing.

The only time Consult was bad-ass was one test game when I was going for a turn 1 win and my imaginary opponent casts FoW and I consulted for a PoN and won.  He then insulted me and we got into an imaginary fight.  Good thing I'm the better fighter.  I know this because Tyler knows this.(what movie?)

What I learned:  Serum is great to have in a fast combo deck.  Sure it sucks if you get 3 of them after a Draw 7, but that is the price you pay to have better opening hands.  When I mull, I want to see a Belcher and at least 4 mana.  Hopefully 2+ are permanent sources.  Or, I want to see a Draw 7 and 3 mana which isn't so hard to get.  I would guess that you can consider Mulling to 5 and still be halfway okay.  This data set gave more turn 1 wins, but more losses(turn 3 IS a loss).  Note that the Turn 3 losses I still was able to activate Belcher, but due to random forces did less than 20 dmg.  There is still no way I would want Tropical to be a Taiga.

Thanks for reading.  I would guess this deck *might* be Viable in Vintage.  I'm going to find someone to 'playtest' against soon.  I'm sure they will have fun.

[Liam-K]

Are you not concerned about losing on the draw to scroll->chain?

[Necrologia]

He then insulted me and we got into an imaginary fight.  Good thing I'm the better fighter.  I know this because Tyler knows this.(what movie?)

Fight Club obv. 

Very interesting build. I'm not totally sold on the blue vs the black splash though. Dark Ritual, Will, Tendrils and more tutors are always welcome.

I'm giving this build a shot though. Nice list, and excellent write up.

[Darkenslight]

I've had a few test games with this deck, and I'll say I like it.  Out of three games (2 vs. Long, 1 vs. Stax), it's won:

Turn 1: 1
Turn 2: 1
Turn 3: 1

One win was through FoW on Channel, one was through Sphere of Resistance and Welder, and one went 'fuck you n00b' and conceded.   Not faced Drain, though.

An actual game log from a 'forbidden program':

0:00:00 [Demona] Demona's Security Code: B798BB2E [???]
0:00:00 [Demona] Daniel's Security Code: 82C8AFB1 [???]
0:00:00 [Demona] It is now turn 1 (Daniel)
0:00:00 [Demona] It is now the Beginning Phase, Untap Step
0:00:24 [Daniel] Daniel plays Savannah from Hand
0:00:32 [Demona] It is now turn 1 (Demona)
0:00:34 [Demona] Demona draws a card
0:00:40 [Demona] Demona plays Black Lotus from Hand
0:00:42 [Demona] Demona plays Mana Crypt from Hand
0:00:46 [Demona] Demona plays Land Grant from Hand
0:01:08 [Demona] Demona puts Tropical Island into play from Library
0:01:09 [Demona] Demona shuffles library
0:01:11 [Demona] Demona puts Land Grant to Graveyard from Play
0:01:20 [Demona] Demona taps Tropical Island
0:01:21 [Demona] Demona plays Tinder Wall from Hand
0:01:23 [Demona] Demona taps Black Lotus
0:01:24 [Demona] Demona puts Black Lotus to Graveyard from Play
0:01:25 [Demona] Demona taps Mana Crypt
0:01:27 [Demona] Demona puts Tinder Wall to Graveyard from Play
0:01:33 [Demona] Demona plays Goblin Charbelcher from Hand
0:01:36 [Demona] Demona taps Goblin Charbelcher


(At this point, I still have 51 cards left in my library)

[madmanmike25]

Are you not concerned about losing on the draw to scroll->chain?

Certainly.  That is of course unless I am able to go off turn 1.  If they get chain of vapor, at least I know to wait until I have 7 mana for Belcher activation, or a Draw7 and 3 mana.  *plus I get 8 cards.

I admit the resilience is low (4 PoNs) but imo this deck has high risks and high rewards.  I am more concerned about a Null Rod when I am on the draw honestly.  That is auto-scoop.  The way to play that is just draw your card and say "Damn, such an awesome hand full of Moxen and NO LANDS!!"  Don't scoop right off the bat and let them know that Null Rod=win.  Draw a few cards before you say "This is ridiculous!", then scoop

He then insulted me and we got into an imaginary fight.  Good thing I'm the better fighter.  I know this because Tyler knows this.(what movie?)

Fight Club obv.

Rock on brother.  Why isn't there a 'Team Mayhem' in Vintage?

Very interesting build. I'm not totally sold on the blue vs the black splash though. Dark Ritual, Will, Tendrils and more tutors are always welcome.

You may be right.  But, here is my logic:  The pacts allow you to win on your turn 2 upkeep AT THE LATEST.  As you have seen, I don't always use them to win.  My rational about using Belcher vs. Tendrils was this; you cannot cast Tendrils on your upkeep.

I am willing to bet it IS possible to put this in a deck with Tendrils though,  I think Serum Powder would have to go in it as well.  It would have to win turn 1 though more often than not.  This is why I still believe Belcher can use the Pact's more easily since it already runs ESG and Tinder Walls and can win during an upkeep.  I'm not sure if the losses associated from a storm count too low are equal to a Belcher activation for < 20 since Belcher is still on the table.  I would say that gives Belcher a slight edge, but I think that if someone built a (consistent) turn 1 Tendrils deck that would be freakin' awesome.


I am going to tweak out a SB maybe this weekend.  It would try to address any issues for 'instant losses'.  If you win turn 1, you may want to SB.  If you lose, you get to go first and you know if you have a favorable matchup or not.  The SB would make the deck slower naturally.


*EDIT  Darkenslight-I assumed you played on MWS, how are the mulligans?  I hear strange things.  The only testing I have done is with real cards.  Yes, I now loathe shuffling even more.

P.S. Anyone consider how much 8 Spirit Guides will piss off people who use Daze?

[Darkenslight]

*EDIT  Darkenslight-I assumed you played on MWS, how are the mulligans?  I hear strange things.  The only testing I have done is with real cards.  Yes, I now loathe shuffling even more.

P.S. Anyone consider how much 8 Spirit Guides will piss off people who use Daze?

It mulligans surprisingly well, considering this is the infamous 'MWS-Shuffler'.  I even mulliganed in a test game to: Lotus, LED, Mox, Belcher PoN, PoN.

And yes, Daze rarely hoses this deck, it seems in testing

[Darkenslight]

After an intense playtesting session against Storm combo (and much hate for the MWS shuffler now!), it seems very finely balanced as to who will win faster.  Obviously, there's almost nothing you can do about Grim Long having the stone cold nuts against you, but it's still about 49-51 in their favour.

[madmanmike25]

After an intense playtesting session against Storm combo (and much hate for the MWS shuffler now!), it seems very finely balanced as to who will win faster.  Obviously, there's almost nothing you can do about Grim Long having the stone cold nuts against you, but it's still about 49-51 in their favour.

Yeah, thats the MWS I have heard about.

What was your  win %(approx.) on the play as opposed to on the draw?  Any SB cards you could think about to make this matchup more favorable, or would it end up slowing the deck down?

Cards to consider for the SB are Ancient Grudge, and maybe even Welders/Xantids.  Grudge is 2 for 1 against Stax and takes care off Null Rod and/or Chalice.

I went out too much this weekend so I wasn't able to test at all.  The only thing for certain that I want in the SB is Windfall to replace Recall vs. Stax/Ichy matches where I am on the play.  Windfall was horrible maindeck if on the draw.

[twault]

Ok, I'll continue my discussion from SCG on here now.

I think the reason that you haven't got a whole lot of replies to this deck is due to the fact that it hasn't been tested in a major tourney yet. You did your homework and tested against a field of different decks, but unfortunately a deck's success is often measured by tournament results. It seems like local 20-man tourneys aren't even enough to convince people about a deck's viability anymore. It has to put up consistent numbers in local and major tournaments before it gets a lot of attention. 

Personally, as a fellow Belcher player, I think the deck is incredibly fast. I just have a preference for a more versatile build. I like having an "out" when things don't go according to plan. My build typically goes off on turn 2-3. It usually means casting Belcher on the 1st turn and activating it on the next, or alternately, casting ETW on the first turn with a storm count of 5-6. Then, two turns of token beatdowns. I can win on turn one, but not consistently. I have a lot of outs when things go wrong...


Quote:

Why don't you like the blue cards? Is it the fact that they give you 7 random cards, or simply because they force you to play with Tropical Island over Bayou? If you don't like the random 7, what is your opinion of Wheel/Jar then?

Reply:

Both. I prefer my tutors over Twister & Recall. I know Vamp is slow, but often I can search for Dark Ritual, Mana Vault, or even Sol Ring. I might only be able to cast Belcher on turn 1, but I can use Vamp to get me another mana source to activate it on the next turn. Alternately, I can cast Vamp for Mana Crypt, and cycle Street Wraith to get it and use on turn 1. It's more or less setting up a win for turn 2, so I understand that it might hinder a turn 1 win. 

I will still say that Consultation has been an MVP, but I guess it wouldn't be right for your deck, because there isn't a whole lot of "4-ofs" worth getting. Consulting for Ritual in my build is usually a good play.

My build runs no blue and has a few black spells, therefore, the Bayou is more important to me.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I think it comes a lot down to playstyle.  Each of the three versions of Belcher--Rg, RBg, and RUg (is Rbug still considered?)--plays differently and distinctly, and I'm not sure there's a correct answer right now on which is the objective best list.

Each is hugely powerful, able to play a Belcher or Empty the Warrens on turn one with some element of consistency, and each one trades something to achieve that consistency. 

I played my Rg list at Becker's single-elimination side tournament in Chicago and blew my first opponent out of the water with a first turn Empty for 10 and a first turn active Belcher before going 1-2 in the next round to one broken Slaver draw with lots of Memory Jar action and one of my typical episodes of playing too cautiously (stupidly waited too long to Channel for the win).  Ben Perry (everythingitouchdies) made top 8 at RIW this weekend with a straight-Rg list that dropped Seething Songs and Chromatic Stars for Desperate Rituals, Regrowth, a second Taiga, and more Red Blasts (now up to 6!).  He lost his top 8 match against a tough Bomberman player mostly because he didn't know what to plan on encountering.  Had he been more familiar with Bomberman, he probably could have won that too.    His list looks really good, by the way, and I'll be switching to it soon.

Of course, Rg, despite my accolades, still has to mulligan to a win condition or another mulligan (Wheel or Jar).  If you pick the wrong win condition (e.g. you go for EtW when they have Merchant Scroll for Echoing Truth in hand) and go all-in, you can probably start counting your chickens.  It's first-turn playability that won't dig itself out of holes very often, if ever.

Menendian has advocated RUg lists in his Star City articles, and he's always been willing to trust in the power of broken draw and statistics (cf. Meandeck Tendrils) to get out of jams.  This list probably has the most must-counter bombs, but even with the bombs, the draws are still random so you can Twister yourself into nothing.  Plus, you have to run at least four (probably more) Chromatic Stars/Spheres to have blue mana regularly enough.

RBg with tutors and Dark Ritual is the classic list that might not be able to refill its hand, but should be able to dig up an answer to most problems.  You get powerful mana, but that power is somewhat quelled by needing Land Grant or Chromatic Star to access it regularly.  Yawgmoth's Will is not the threat in this deck that it is in any other combo, and your protection spells can get in the way of your mana spells and vice versa.

Plus, to play the tutors and draw spells of black or blue, most players end up cutting win conditions like Empty the Warrens from the deck, thus negating some of their tutors and draws.

So what do you want?  Consistent mana, consistent draw, or consistent searching?

Each has its merits, and once a player finds the one he likes, he's likely to stick with it until something really earthshaking comes along or he starts losing.  I haven't seen anything in Future Sight or elsewhere that makes me want to switch.  If anything, it's Street Wraith and the ability to 1) thin your deck and 2) beat with a 3/4 swampwalker if you play Dark Ritual.  At the same time, Storm Elemental turns my Rg Living Wishes into threats too.

I hope the discussion of Belcher keeps up and that people do some tournament testing and report on that, because that's the only way there ever will be a "correct" way to build the deck.  Until then people should continue playing whatever color combination they want and base their eventual choice on real results rather than speculation and theory.

Here's Ben Perry's list from Sunday, by the way.  The sideboard was experimental, but he can side out all 6 red blasts for all 6 artifact-hate cards, which is nice.  Plus, both of us agreed that Xantid Swarm is trash in a deck that strives to win first turn every game.

2x Taiga

Acceleration

4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
3x Desperate Ritual
4x Tinder Wall
1x Channel
1x Lotus Petal
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Chrome Mox
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Pearl

Tutors

4x Land Grant
2x Living Wish
1x Regrowth

Draw

1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Memory Jar

Win Conditions

4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Empty the Warrens

Protection

3x Goblin Welder
4x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast

Side Board

1x Xantid Swarm
1x Skirk Prospector
1x Mogg Fanatic
1x Eternal Witness
1x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x Mishra's Workshop
1x Tolarian Academy
2x Tin Street Hooligan
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Shattering Spree
2x Gorilla Shaman
1x Goblin Welder

[twault]

Anybody thought of adding Burning Wish to Belcher?

I've tried it, and I like it.

My sideboard runs 14 cards that can be accessed via Living Wish or Burning Wish. Here's the list I am running now..

4   Elvish Spirit Guide   
2   Goblin Welder   
4   Simian Spirit Guide   
4   Street Wraith   


Spells 
1   Burning Wish   
1   Channel   
4   Dark Ritual   
1   Demonic Consultation   
1   Demonic Tutor   
2   Duress   
2   Empty the Warrens   
4   Land Grant   
2   Living Wish   
4   Rite of Flame   
1   Vampiric Tutor   
1   Wheel of Fortune   


Artifacts 
1   Black Lotus   
3   Chromatic Star   
1   Chrome Mox   
4   Goblin Charbelcher   
1   Lion's Eye Diamond   
1   Lotus Petal   
1   Mana Crypt   
1   Mana Vault   
1   Memory Jar   
1   Mox Emerald   
1   Mox Jet   
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Ruby   
1   Mox Sapphire   
1   Sol Ring   


Lands 
1   Bayou   
1   Taiga   

Sideboard:

2   Goblin Welder   
2   Xantid Swarm   
1   Duress   
1   Empty the Warrens   
1   Pact of Negation   
1   Pyroclasm   
2   Shattering Spree   
1   Tendrils of Agony   
1   Tinker   
1   Bayou   
1   Mishra's Workshop   
1   Tolarian Academy   

This isn't the fastest build of Belcher, but it is rather versatile. Mulliganing is still highly important, and getting FOW'd still hurts. However, this deck has a nice, accessible toolbox to get around certain hate cards like Chalice for "0" and Null Rod, and can find fixers like Goblin Welder and Xantid Swarm. It's not fool-proof, but it does add a little resiliency. The thing I hate to see the most from my opponent is Trinisphere/Sphere of Resistance. As with any deck like this, it has potential to "crap out" on you, so I don't like mulling beyond 5 cards, because ETW wins become hopeless with less cards in your hand.

[madmanmike25]

I guess it really does come down to playstyle.  That is why I am pretty sure there is no 'best' Belcher deck, and that several can work.  I guess if I am playing combo, I want to be really aggressive.  That is why I am only going to be concerned with having an 'out' post SB.  I want to maximize my chances of winning if I am on the play.  After that, I can slow things down if I have to. 

I am too busy to try to make it to any major tournament but it would be interesting to see how the deck would do.


Twault and Lochinvar have either of you guys played with Summoner's Pact or Pact of Negation?  I suggest you take them for a test run.

Also for both of you:  What do you find yourself winning more with, Belcher or EtW?  So many times ESG/SSG gave me horrible storm counts for EtW.  Both of you seem unimpressed by Xantids, I always loved a first turn Xantid when playing against decks with FoW.  Sometimes your 'gas' gets countered before you get the 4 mana to even cast Belcher.  When I ran Rituals, they were always countered if the opponent had one.

I still think Rite of Flame is a bad Dark Ritual, how many games do you actually see 3 of these?

Twault, you have 9 Black spells and only 3 Stars; has that ever been a problem?  Sometimes I run into color issues with only 6 spells to cast even though I use 4 Stars and the 1 Tropical.  Oh, and no Bazaar in the SB for Living Wish?

Also, since both of you aren't into Draw7's I strongly suggest you give Serum Powder a try.  It reallly helps your Mulligans.  Since you only run Wheel and Jar, it shouldn't be a problem, because if you don't see it in your opening 7, you will most likely not see it at all.  I am pretty sure both of you are aware at how often Belcher decks Mulligan.

You guys usually win on turn 3 I would assume from the decklists.  After playing my version, I would really hate to play with 2 lands anymore.

I like Burning Wish and Living Wish, but it just seems that with so many non-permanent sources of mana they can be too costly.

I will also ask both of you if there are any other cards you would suggest for my list.  I tested Vamp, and it was pretty inconsistent for me.  Sometimes I couldn't wait the turn, but sometimes I had it and Wraith/Star.  Truth be told, sometimes even the lone DT is problematic to cast but I wouldn't cut it.  I don't think another black spell will fit. 

[twault]

I guess it really does come down to playstyle.  That is why I am pretty sure there is no 'best' Belcher deck, and that several can work.  I guess if I am playing combo, I want to be really aggressive.  That is why I am only going to be concerned with having an 'out' post SB.  I want to maximize my chances of winning if I am on the play.  After that, I can slow things down if I have to. 

True. Playstyle is the key and there is no definitive list yet. Your sideboard can help you make changes to your game plan when your "Plan A" doesn't go accordingly.

I am too busy to try to make it to any major tournament but it would be interesting to see how the deck would do.

We need more people playing Belcher in tourneys to get better data.

Twault and Lochinvar have either of you guys played with Summoner's Pact or Pact of Negation?  I suggest you take them for a test run.

PON is in my sideboard. My SCG F.S. preorder will be coming soon. I will be testing for the next few weeks.

 Also for both of you:  What do you find yourself winning more with, Belcher or EtW?  So many times ESG/SSG gave me horrible storm counts for EtW.  Both of you seem unimpressed by Xantids, I always loved a first turn Xantid when playing against decks with FoW.  Sometimes your 'gas' gets countered before you get the 4 mana to even cast Belcher.  When I ran Rituals, they were always countered if the opponent had one.

I prefer the Belcher win, but if I have ETW and can "map out" a storm count of 5-6, I'll take my chances. Alternately, I can also Burning Wish for Tendrills, if I have Dark Rit.

The nice thing about Rituals is that you'll know if your opponent has a counter or not. Oftentimes, I will cast Ritual to bait a FOW. Then, I can play Living Wish for Workshop. Not too bad a trade.

I love Xantids, but they are often situational. I can board them in for game 2 or use Living Wish to get them in the main.
I still think Rite of Flame is a bad Dark Ritual, how many games do you actually see 3 of these?

Not often, but paying  for  is just enough sometimes. Mox, SSG, Rite of Flame = 3 Mana = Wheel of Fortune.

Twault, you have 9 Black spells and only 3 Stars; has that ever been a problem?  Sometimes I run into color issues with only 6 spells to cast even though I use 4 Stars and the 1 Tropical.  Oh, and no Bazaar in the SB for Living Wish?

It's definitely problematic, and I hope to find a spot for another Star. Plus, I will probably be swapping Duress for PONs or REBs. Bazaar might actually be better than Tolarian Academy for this deck.

Also, since both of you aren't into Draw7's I strongly suggest you give Serum Powder a try.  It reallly helps your Mulligans.  Since you only run Wheel and Jar, it shouldn't be a problem, because if you don't see it in your opening 7, you will most likely not see it at all.  I am pretty sure both of you are aware at how often Belcher decks Mulligan.

Um, yeah. Lots of mulls. I might consider it, but I don't know what I could cut....

You guys usually win on turn 3 I would assume from the decklists.  After playing my version, I would really hate to play with 2 lands anymore.

I like Burning Wish and Living Wish, but it just seems that with so many non-permanent sources of mana they can be too costly.

Again, it's most effective at setting up a turn 2 win. It's not uncommon to start your opening hand with a Bayou/Taiga and a Land Grant. So, you might get Belcher into play on turn 1, and still need another mana source to activate it on turn 2. The 2nd land has it's advantages. Living Wish is the bread & butter for my deck.

I will also ask both of you if there are any other cards you would suggest for my list.  I tested Vamp, and it was pretty inconsistent for me.  Sometimes I couldn't wait the turn, but sometimes I had it and Wraith/Star.  Truth be told, sometimes even the lone DT is problematic to cast but I wouldn't cut it.  I don't think another black spell will fit. 

Maybe I'm crazy, but what about DSC in your sideboard? You already run Tinker main, and it's a good backup plan that can stay in the sideboard. It's going to take 2 extra turns to win, but if Belcher is shut down by Meddling Mage or something, you have a "plan B". Plus, if you are running blue, you might as well include Time Walk into the mix. If things aren't going according to plan, then you might as well untap, draw, and try again. I can't think of any reason it wouldn't be good.

[twault]

I realize that playing a game and goldfishing are two totally different things. However, I have had some positive signs from this deck, and decided to post the results. This doesn't take threats such as FOW, Null Rod, etc into account.

Goldfished 10 hands, here are the results:

Game 1: Hand (ETW, Land Grant, Wheel of Fortune, Belcher, ESG, Sol Ring, Black Lotus)

Land Grant for Bayou. Tap Bayou, play Sol Ring. Play Black Lotus, sacrifice it. Remove ESG from Game. Play Belcher. End Turn.

Next turn: Hand (ETW, Wheel of Fortune) Draw Land Grant. Play Land Grant for Taiga. Tap Bayou, tap Sol Ring. Tap Belcher.

WIN: Turn 2

Game 2: Hand (Street Wraith, Land Grant, Mox Pearl, Goblin Charbelcher, Wheel of Fortune, Black Lotus, SSG)

Land Grant for Bayou. Put Bayou into play. Play Mox Pearl. Play Black Lotus. Cycle Street Wraith, draw Land Grant. Sacrifice Black Lotus, tap Mox Pearl for Goblin Charbelcher. Land Grant for Taiga. End Turn.

Next Turn: Hand (Wheel of Fortune, SSG) Draw Rite of Flame. Put Taiga into play. Tap Taiga, tap Bayou, remove SSG from game. Tap Belcher.

WIN: Turn 2

Game 3: Hand (ESG, Dark Ritual, Mox Jet, Land Grant, Street Wraith, SSG, SSG) Mulligan. New Hand, 6 Cards: (Consultation, Chrome Mox, Rite of Flame, Black Lotus, Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond) Play Black Lotus, Play Lion's Eye Diamond, Play Lotus Petal. Sacrifice Black Lotus for  . Play Consultation, naming Goblin Charbelcher (Next cards: Land Grant, ESG, SSG, Vampiric Tutor, SSG, Land Grant, ETW, Street Wraith, Dark Ritual, BELCHER) Tap Lotus Petal for  . Play Rite of Flame. Use and  . Play Belcher. Sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond. Discard hand. Tap Goblin Charbelcher.

WIN: Turn 1

Game 4: Hand (Mana Crypt, Land Grant, Chromatic Star, Lion's Eye Diamond, Street Wraith, SSG, Chrome Mox) Mulligan. New Hand, 6 Cards: (Goblin Charbelcher, Mox Sapphire, SSG, SSG, ETW, Lion's Eye Diamond) Mulligan. New Hand, 5 Cards: (Demonic Consultation, ESG, Bayou, Living Wish, Rite of Flame). Play Bayou. Tap Bayou. Play Demonic Consultation, naming Belcher (Next cards: Wheel of Fortune, Taiga, Duress, Goblin Welder, Chromatic Star, ETW, Land Grant, Goblin Welder, Black Lotus, BELCHER). End Turn. Next Turn. Draw SSG. Remove SSG for  . Play Rite of Flame. Remove ESG for  . USe  . Play Living Wish for Mishra's Workshop. Play Mishra's Workshop. Tap Workshop for  use floating  cast Belcher. End Turn. Next Turn. Draw Lion's Eye Diamond. Play Lion's Eye Diamond. Sacrifice LED, discard hand, tap Belcher.

WIN: Turn 3

Game 5: Hand (Rite of Flame, ESG, Mox Sapphire, Lotus Petal, Taiga, Mana Vault, Duress) Mulligan. New Hand, 6 Cards: (Land Grant, Land Grant, Lotus Petal, Goblin Welder, Chromatic Star, Goblin Charbelcher). Mulligan. New Hand, 5 Cards: (Dark Ritual, Vampiric Tutor, Black Lotus, Demonic Consultation, Chrome Mox). Play Black Lotus. Sacrifice Lotus for  . Use one  , play Demonic Consultation, naming Goblin Charbelcher (Next Cards: Chromatic Star, Dark Ritual, Mana Crypt, Channel, SSG, Bayou, Belcher---Yeah! Perfect!!) Use  Play Dark Ritual. Play Goblin Charbelcher. End Turn. Next Turn. Draw Rite of Flame. Remove Rite of Flame to Chrome Mox. Play Chrome Mox.  End Turn. Next Turn. Draw Taiga. Play Taiga. End Turn. Next Turn. Draw Sol Ring. Tap Chrome Mox. Play Sol Ring. Tap Sol Ring, tap Taiga. Tap Goblin Charbelcher.

Win: Turn 4
BOO!!! Loss

Game 6: Hand (Wheel of Fortune, Street Wraith, SSG, Duress, Mox Jet, Rite of Flame, Mana Crypt) Cycle Street Wraith for Lotus Petal. Play Lotus Petal. Play Mox Jet. Play Mana Crypt. Remove SSG from game for  . Play Rite of Flame for  . Tap Mox Jet, play Duress. Tap Lotus Petal. Play Wheel of Fortune. No cards to discard. Draw (Living Wish, Dark Ritual, Chromatic Star, Mana Vault, Mox Emerald, Land Grant, Goblin Charbelcher). Land Grant for Bayou. Tap Bayou for  . Play Dark Ritual. Play Mox Emerald. Tap Mox Emerald. Play Mana Vault. Tap Mana Crypt. Play Goblin Charbelcher. Tap Mana Vault. Tap Goblin Charbelcher.

Win: Turn 1

Game 7: Hand (Dark Ritual, Mana Vault, Living Wish, Dark Ritual, Street Wraith, Dark Ritual, Rite of Flame). Mulligan. New Hand, 6 Cards: (Rite of Flame, Duress, Demonic Consultation, Memory Jar, Rite of Flame, Land Grant). Mulligan. New Hand, 5 Cards: (ESG, Street Wraith, ETW, Goblin Charbelcher, Channel). Cycle Street Wraith for Mox Sapphire. Play Mox Sapphire. End Turn. Next Turn. Draw Land Grant. Play Land Grant for Bayou. Play Bayou. Tap Bayou. Remove ESG from game. Play Channel for 7. Play and activate Belcher.

Win: Turn 2

Game 8: Hand (Lotus Petal, Mox Emerald, ESG, Rite of Flame, Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Duress). Mulligan. New Hand, 6 Cards: (Empty the Warrens, Mox Ruby, Street Wraith, Rite of Flame, Chromatic Star, Land Grant). Cycle Street Wraith. Draw Burning Wish. Play Land Grant for Bayou. Tap Bayou. Play Chromatic Star. Play Mox Ruby. Play Rite of Flame. Play Burning Wish for Tinker. End Turn. Next Turn. Draw Demonic Tutor. Tap Bayou, Tap Mox Ruby. Play Demonic Tutor for Black Lotus. Play Black Lotus. Sacrifice Black Lotus for  . Play Tinker. Sacrifice Chromatic Star. Put Goblin Charbelcher into play. Draw Rite of Flame. End Turn. Next Turn. Draw Land Grant. Play Land Grant for Taiga. Tap Taiga, Ruby, Bayou. Tap Belcher.

Win: Turn 3

Game 9: Hand (ESG, Mox Pearl, Goblin Welder, Land Grant, Rite of Flame, Mana Vault, Goblin Charbelcher). Play Mox Pearl. Play Land Grant for Taiga. Play Taiga. Tap Taiga for Rite of Flame. Tap Pearl. Remove ESG from Game. Play Goblin Charbelcher. End Turn. NExt Turn. Draw Dark Ritual. Tap Taiga. Play Mana Vault. Tap Mana Vault. Tap Goblin Charbelcher.

Win: Turn 2

Game 10: Hand (Land Grant, Chromatic Star, Rite of Flame, Mox Jet, Rite of Flame, Dark Ritual, SSG). Mulligan. New Hand, 6 Cards: (Mana Vault, Rite of Flame, Land Grant, ETW, ESG, Dark Ritual). Mulligan. New Hand, 5 Cards: (Dark Ritual, Street Wraith, Street Wraith, ESG, Living Wish). Mulligan. New Hand, 4 Cards: (Chrome Mox, SSG, Rite of Flame, Street Wraith).
Dang, gotta keep it!
Remove SSG, Play Chrome Mox. Cycle Street Wraith. Draw Memory Jar. End Turn. Next Turn. Hand (Rite of Flame, Memory Jar). Draw Lion's Eye Diamond. Play Lion's Eye Diamond. End Turn. Next Turn. Hand (Rite of Flame, Memory Jar). Draw Street Wraith. Cycle Street Wraith. Draw Rite of Flame. End Turn. Next Turn. Hand (Rite of Flame, Memory Jar, Rite of Flame). Draw ESG. Tap Chrome Mox. Play Rite of Flame. Play the 2nd Rite of Flame. Remove ESG. Play Memory Jar. Sacrifice Jar. Draw: (Mox Ruby, Duress, Mox Sapphire, Demonic Consultation, SSG, Goblin Charbelcher, Land Grant). PLay Land Grant for Bayou. Play Bayou. Tap Bayou. Demonic Consultaton naming Rite of Flame (Next cards: Land Grant, Goblin Charbelcher, SSG, ESG, Mox Jet, Dark Ritual, Duress, RITE OF FLAME). Play Mox Ruby. Play Mox Sapphire. Tap Mox Ruby. Play Rite of FLame. Play Goblin Charbelcher. Activate Turn 5

Win: Turn 5

LOSS!!

What did I learn from all this? I don't have enough combo protection. The 2 Duresses main don't cut it. They need to be cut for Pyroblast, REB, or Pact of Negation. There needs to be at least 4 of whatever I choose. I think I will try cutting 2 x Duress and 4 x Rite of Flame. I will replace with 4 x Pact of Negation and either 2 Tinder Walls, or 1 Tinder Wall/1 Chromatic Star, or 1 Chromatic Star/ 1 ETW. When I test, I will condense the data into a shorter format and let you all know the results sometime next week.

[Xman]

I just goldfished the original list a few times in MWS.  I discovered short of a FoW on belcher, my opponent would pretty much be done.  I tried it 10 quick times on the play, and the single slowest win I had was turn 3 Upkeep.  I had 1 on turn 3 upkeep, 5 n turn 2 upkeep, and 4 on turn 1.  All on the play.

Had to get creative a couple of times, but it worked.

It seems like it is a good deck, and I am very sure it will work to win a mox or two.  Assuming you can navigate through a full field.  It is all or nothing.  Guts or Glory.  I had the single problem that if my opponent had a FoW, I was So Out of Luck.  But aside from that, it works and I would probably consider this (or a varient) as something to take to a local tournament.

[madmanmike25]

Xman, I'm curious of your opinion of Serum Powder.  Surely you have been in situations where it is beneficial and times when it sucks.  I still like them of course, I just wanted to get some one else's feedback on the card.

So far my SB plan/idea against Null Rod/Chalice decks is to take out both Pact spells and put in EtW and Rite of Flame in their place.  Even a storm of 3 can win some games.   I considered Ancient Grudge, and still do, but figured EtW might work better.  Basically the concept is to go a tad slower/steadier when on the draw against Null Rod/Chalice decks to maximize your chances at winning.  I might even consider 3 Rites/1 Taiga against those matches.  This SB plan is of course ONLY when I am on the draw.  If on the play, I would just say go for it and be aggressive.

Also, if the deck does NOT contain FoW (like Stax or Ichorid) I take out Ancestral Recall for Windfall if on the play since then it has more of a chance to actually draw 7 cards.  Windfall still sucks on the draw, nothing new there.

[twault]

Madmanmike:

I would definitely consider Ancient Grudge or Shattering Spree to deal with Null Rod & Chalice. ETW probably won't be enough alone, because all your mana will be locked down and you won't have a storm at all. You can use SSG & ESG to get you out of tight spots with Grudge & Spree.

[Xman]

Mike,

Serum Powder is definatly something I would keep.  If I was going to mulligan with it in my hand, 4 out of 5 times I used it.  Being able to thin as many as 28 cards from your deck prior to either player playing the first card is a good ability in a deck such as this.  I found tghat I usually used it to thin 7-14 cards, though in one game I thinned 21 cards, then went absolutely nuts on the play.  I honestly believe that it is worth all 4 slots and like every card printed, it has it's strengths and weaknesses.  I would not remove it from the deck based on its usefullness.  If you need a normal mull, you can still take it with it in your hand.

As for the board, I have no idea how to board it.  I have been playing it without a board.  I assume the board would be similar to 2-land belcher, but I was never any good at boarding that deck anyway.

My friends all watched me play this deck against them for quite a while (I think that was the most games of MTG I have played in 2 hours, well, ever).  We all agree if it hasn't gone off by turn 4, it is very unlikely you will win.  But I found, that on the play it had such a crazy turn 1 kill rate it was well worth it.  And if it did not kill on turn 1, it was almost always turn 2 upkeep.  I love it.

Oh and the group I was testing with have decided that this deck is, for lack of a better term, absolutely retarded.  We love it.

- X

[madmanmike25]

I would definitely consider Ancient Grudge or Shattering Spree to deal with Null Rod & Chalice. ETW probably won't be enough alone, because all your mana will be locked down and you won't have a storm at all. You can use SSG & ESG to get you out of tight spots with Grudge & Spree.

I'm more inclined to believe that Grudge > Spree.  Chalice will be most common at 0, then at 1.  Spree would need RR to get rid of only one artifact if Chalice is at 1.  Unless you get Tinder Wall, RR might be hard to get with spree in this deck.  I realize that Grudge needs 1RG to take out 2 artifacts, but you can destroy the second one at your convenience since it is doubtful that anyone would SB GY hate against a Belcher deck. 

This begs the question:  Would it be better to run 4 Ancient Grudge, or 4 EtW in the SB?  Is it better to have another option at winning, or force the Belcher win through?  Remember, I wouldn't SB on the play against Null Rod and Chalice, only on the draw.

I'm not sure I would want to SB both EtW and Grudge.  I think that would dilute the deck too much.  It is more likely that your opponent will have to stop YOU.   If you slow a deck down that has 1-2 non-basic lands you are in for some rough games, not to mention that topdecking Serum Powders would be even worse for you.

We all agree if it hasn't gone off by turn 4, it is very unlikely you will win.  But I found, that on the play it had such a crazy turn 1 kill rate it was well worth it.  And if it did not kill on turn 1, it was almost always turn 2 upkeep.  I love it.

Very true about the 4th turn.  I *usually* consider turn 3 a loss because your opponent gets 2 more cards to try and stop you.  It all depends on what your opponent has naturally, though sometimes they just cannot find any relevent disruption.  Again, not being GY based is a huge plus for this deck.

Oh and the group I was testing with have decided that this deck is, for lack of a better term, absolutely stupid.  We love it.

Ha, thanks.  It really is Belcher hopped up on Mountain Dew and Red Bull.  I have tested other cards, but I always come back the original build.  I'm not sure if I can make the deck any faster or if it is even possible.

Belch loud, Belch proud.

Mike

[Dralock]

I'm not going to write a book on this deck, as Mike has his own in the works.

I am, however, going to throw out a zero-land list as an alternative. I am not going to explain why it has what it has in it, if you are looking for more belcher tricks, you will know how it works, why it works, and what the benefit of taking out five of the most cumbersome cards in the deck really is.

Cheers.

// 4-ofs
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Street Wraith
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Rite of Flame
4 Serum Powder
4 Pact of Negation

// Singles
 Sol Ring
 Mox Sapphire
 Black Lotus
 Mana Crypt
 Lotus Petal
 Chrome Mox
 Lion's Eye Diamond
 Mox Ruby
 Mana Vault
 Grim Monolith
 Channel
 Tinker
 Timetwister
 Ancestral Recall
 Demonic Tutor
 Memory Jar
 Wheel of Fortune
 Mox Pearl
 Chromatic Star
 Mox Emerald
 Mox Jet

[madmanmike25]

I'm pretty sure the missing 3 cards are Stars, right?  I forget if you are testing something else.

It would be sweet to have a landless belcher.  I dunno, sometimes that U mana was difficult to get when I took out Land Grant and Tropical.  I will say this, knowing that a Belcher activation ALWAYS wins is awesome.

Another thing to consider is that Tropical is a permanent mana source(barring waste/strip) that you can use during your upkeep.  I have had many hands that I cannot keep even though I can cast Belcher because there is no way to activate it next turn.   All my resources went into putting it into play.

Oh, and I goldfished some games on the play post SB for any deck without FoW.  I put in 4 Rites and took out 4 PoN's.  It's freakin awesome.

[Lelolith]

Really Risky Business.

Win
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty The Warrens

Mana
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rites of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Tinder Wall
3 Summoners Pact
3 Desperate Ritual
1 Taiga
1 Black Lotus
1 Lions Eye Diamond
1 Sol Ring
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Channel

Search
4 Serum Powder
1 Gamble
1 Burning Wish

Broken
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune

Board
1 Empty the Warrens
+14 others

okies whats missing um Black and er Blue, basically gaining as much consistancy as possible to stick to RG, if taiga is still in the deck I only need to reveal 10 cards instead of the 20. Gamble fits the deck ethic if not the deck exactly it is still powerful.

Edit: Oops I posted the wrong list,

[nicofromtokyo]

> 3 Summoners Pact
The FS pacts are not something one can call synergetic with Empty the Warrens, that means you will have dead cards in your hand a lot of times (either EtW or Pact).

>2 Gamble
It may be broken, but it may be very bad too, so probably a bad choice if you intend to win games more than you may loose them.

>2 Sensei's Divining Top
Just too slow, you are playing a combo deck that wants to win turn one ore two, not an artifact that costs you mana and gives you neither draw nor mana. Just the opposite to Chromatic Star.

>4 Serum Powder
I advice you to play with tutors instead, they help you a lot instead of praying having a good first hand to finally be countered by FoW.

I really think the best version plays Black (with rituals and tutors) but 2 lands are needed. I guess you should more axe your build towards the one which plays only Belcher + U & G Pacts + Street Wraith + Serum, OR axe it to a more stable version with BGR.



 

[netherspirit]

I've done some testing with the deck and have cut Serum Powder for Rite of Flame. It's much better!

[Xman]

I've done some testing with the deck and have cut Serum Powder for Rite of Flame. It's much better!

I don't know.  I much prefer the Serum Powder as it allows me to thin the deck by 7 before the game even starts, giving me a greater concentration of threats effectively.  I can understand what you are syaing about Rite of Flame, but I have not had tourble with the Serum Powders in the maindeck.  It does remarkably well & you can toss out 7 cards you don't need that game.  Rite of Flame does add more mana, but is it worth extra free mulligans?  After all, mulliganning correctly is a fact of life in Belcher decks, especially one such as this that has a high probability of Turn 1 or Turn 2 Upkeep.