[Premium Article] The Ichorid Blitz

[yespuhyren]

@ Peter and Smennen - With Stax seeming like it is on the decline, do you think that the fact that Ichorid might be able to knock down the popularity/strength of popular archetypes like Gifts and Slaver could also be part of the factor that could bring stax back to the top tables again? 

[Vegeta2711]

I've also seen some really terrible Ichorid players who were just so incompetent they threw awa the match.

You'd have to actively be trying to throw the match with the deck once somebody showed you the timing rules for all the cards. I have a hard time imagining any Ichorid player being quite bad enough to throw matches away.

[Titanium Dragon]

So, for example, a sideboard consisting of 6 lands, 4 CoV, 3 Charm, 2 Contagion

The problem is that if you spread out your sideboard, while you always have –an- answer, you won’t often have –the- answer, and this version of the deck does have the disadvantage of having even fewer lands, so it is even harder to play answers.

Im really dissapointed by such an answer : chalice  is a format breaker so play it because i theorised it. The vintage is defined by a metagame which allways change. So how can you theorised that this  piece of disruptiion is the good one or not ?

Because chalice is the best piece of disruption there is in terms of making time. Chalice for 0 stops them from playing Tormod’s Crypt, Moxen, Black Lotus, Lotus Petal, and Mana Crypt, all major threats to you because they let them go off much earlier. On the play, it alone will give you enough time against many decks.

I just wanted to point that leyline seems superior to me because  ichorid  is the hype and will be played alot in the next weeks/Monthes. The  theory answer is clearly not eough compared to deck practice  and testings.

Leyline of the Void is good sometimes, but is other trash against other decks, particularly fish, which may see a resurgence in popularity if it can be built properly and especially if it isn’t hated against. Turn 1 Jotun Grunt isn’t really fast enough unless they strip you as well (unlikely), but turn 2 Trinket Mage IS fast enough to cause you serious harm if you don’t have chalice for 0 out. I’d rather run chalice + unmask, but as a single piece of hate, I’d rather run chalice than leyline – its easier to play, isn’t a dead card if you pull it off the top with your first bazaar activation, and is easier to replay if someone bounces it.

Leyline slows some decks down, but its not like Grim Long can’t go off on turn 2 without access to the yard.

Having said that though, would any good players opt to play this deck at a major event? Unless you have the surprise factor going for you, the idea of possibly getting devastated by weaker players based on what they draw in their opening seven as opposed to their playskill isn't a very appealing scenario. On the flip side, weaker players might sieze the opportunity to bridge skill gaps by playing a deck like this, essentially leaving it up to chance as far as the outcome of the game is concerned. Such players don't even have to have much in the way of deckbuilding skill - the efforts in this forum and other forums will likely ensure that players will have access to near optimal lists of the archetype.

Actually, decisions you make while playing this deck are huge. There aren’t a huge number of them, but you have to make them correctly and if you make subtle mistakes it’s the difference between going off on turn 2 and turn 4, sometimes, and if you make mistakes on therapies you will have a lot more trouble. The decklist is a major part of it, of course, but its not like there are not other decisions.

You'd have to actively be trying to throw the match with the deck once somebody showed you the timing rules for all the cards. I have a hard time imagining any Ichorid player being quite bad enough to throw matches away.

Its not hard at all; decisions you make in the face of hate make a big difference. They have a Tcrypt out; how far do you go with bazaar this turn, and what do you keep in your hand to fuel going off post-crypt, while still establishing enough of a threat that they have to crypt you –now-? Also, again, unmasking the wrong card or calling the wrong therapy means the difference between winning and losing oftentimes.

Its not that the deck is not skill-intensive; it is. You have to make a lot of decisions every turn, and there’s a big difference between a sutured ghoul for 18 and one for 20.

[Vegeta2711]

Its not hard at all; decisions you make in the face of hate make a big difference. They have a Tcrypt out; how far do you go with bazaar this turn, and what do you keep in your hand to fuel going off post-crypt, while still establishing enough of a threat that they have to crypt you –now-? Also, again, unmasking the wrong card or calling the wrong therapy means the difference between winning and losing oftentimes.

I didn't realize having basic decision making skills and a memory counted as the deck needing 'skill' to play correctly.

I'm being 100% serious here, how the hell is the deck skill-intensive? I know everyone likes to say every deck in Vintage is skill-intensive nowadays, but Ichorid gives you like one or two non obv obv relevant decisions a turn. Sure there are slightly more than that, but if you screw those up then there really isn't a lot of hope for you anyway. I mean yes, if somebody gave you the listing that same day I could see people fucking up with the deck multiple times, but really this is the closest thing to an auto-pilot deck I've seen in just about any format. Maybe one or two block decks were more automatic than this, but really, the skill level needed to play this deck is easily one of the lowest in the last five years or so.

The only two remotely difficult decisions in the deck to make is what to name with Therapy and boarding. Everything else is just common sense and memory.

[mox apricot]

   Stax is an interesting match up for ichorid. I’d say one of the strengths of ichorid is that counter doesn’t matter. That is typically about eight dead cards that are not found in stax. I’ve play tested considerably against a 4 color uba build running 1 Tcrypt, 4 waste effects, 1 duplicant and 2 triskillion (opposed to the more common one) main deck. This deck runs two additional boarded Tcrypts. You’d be amazed at some of the ridiculously damaging plays to ichoird this thing makes.

turn one: wastes bazaar, mox ,play goblin welder
turn 2: play bazaar activate, discard triskilion/duplicant

turn one: mox, city, time walk
turn 2: Tcrypt, mana crypt/lotus/land+sol ring/shop, uba mask

turn one: trinisphere+ slow play crypt.

   My success rate against this particular build is about 45% post board. It has little problem slowing me down to find the answers, especially with the bazaar uba combo. My current list is a ghoul combo running main deck leyline, bridges from below, narcomoeba, street wraith, chalice, 14 dredgers, LED, pretty standard, 3 nether shadows however. Does the amount of game lose seem reasonable?
   The course of action most decks take against ichoird is one of the following: board leyline, or slow down ichorid and search for an answer. Chain of vapor is a great solution to leyline, I’m not concerned with it. But I believe that baubles might be needed to provide the protection against waste (especially with the increase in reoccurring waste I am seeing).
    Thoughts, suggestions, comments?
   

[Smmenen]

Its not hard at all; decisions you make in the face of hate make a big difference. They have a Tcrypt out; how far do you go with bazaar this turn, and what do you keep in your hand to fuel going off post-crypt, while still establishing enough of a threat that they have to crypt you –now-? Also, again, unmasking the wrong card or calling the wrong therapy means the difference between winning and losing oftentimes.

I didn't realize having basic decision making skills and a memory counted as the deck needing 'skill' to play correctly.

I'm being 100% serious here, how the hell is the deck skill-intensive? I know everyone likes to say every deck in Vintage is skill-intensive nowadays, but Ichorid gives you like one or two non obv obv relevant decisions a turn. Sure there are slightly more than that, but if you screw those up then there really isn't a lot of hope for you anyway. I mean yes, if somebody gave you the listing that same day I could see people fucking up with the deck multiple times, but really this is the closest thing to an auto-pilot deck I've seen in just about any format. Maybe one or two block decks were more automatic than this, but really, the skill level needed to play this deck is easily one of the lowest in the last five years or so.

The only two remotely difficult decisions in the deck to make is what to name with Therapy and boarding. Everything else is just common sense and memory.

Therapy actually requires very little skill.  It's as mechanical as everything else.   Against most decks, the first card you name is FOW.   It's only logical.  Subsequent therapies are based upon what you've seen.   

The most skill intensive cards have been removed from the deck:  Unmask and Strip Mine.  You'll (the general use of 'you' - as in, 'you all') will recall my article on Gifts v. Ichorid in which the most skill intensive and game changing decision was whether to Bazaar or Strip Mine.   The second most difficult decision was knowing what to take with Unmask   If there was an opportuinty for someone to screw up, it was one of those.  For instance, taking a Mox or Brainstorm is often the difference between winning and losing against an explosive hand.  Being able to properly evaluate what to take with Unmask is actually much trickier than it seemed, esp. with generic Gifts hands like Mox, Land, Brainstorm, Scroll, etc, etc.   

In short, most of the decision making is now mechanical, but nonetheless people still will manage to screw it up. 

[WilD]

Can this deck play around planar void? All the plays I can see fail because it's all at sorcery speed (Cabal therapy etc.)

[Chiz]

Can this deck play around planar void? All the plays I can see fail because it's all at sorcery speed (Cabal therapy etc.)

Yes it can... It can be hard, but it's not impossible...

If Ichorid starts, it would have activate Bazaar of Bagdad 1st turn and if he has a draw or 2 (Baubles and/or Street Wraith), he would be able to have some win condition in the graveyard to win... You have to take into account that Planar Void has a triggered ability (not a remplacement effect), so the dying creatures (Probably Ichorid) will triggered the Bridge you have in your graveyard and give token to the Ichorid player!
Ichorid’s player will need to activate his Bazaar on the opponent's turn and dredge with it, so if they reveal some Narcomoeba in that process, both Planar Void and Narcomoeba goes on the stack, so we apply A/NA rule, so the triggered from Narcomoeba will resolve before the Planar Void, so they will be put into play...
If you start with a 1st turn Planar Void on the play, the only hope for Ichorid is to have 2 Bazaar (Or a Bazaar and Street Wraith), activate a Bazaar on your turn, discard some Dredge. That will trigger the Planar Void. In response, you draw a card (With Bazaar or Street Wraith) and if you dredge away Narcomoeba, they will come into play... But, that wouldn't be enough probably. 

Therapy actually requires very little skill.  It's as mechanical as everything else.   Against most decks, the first card you name is FOW.   It's only logical.  Subsequent therapies are based upon what you've seen.   

I agree and I don't agree there... If everything is going normal (you will probably combo that turn) you will probably name FoW first. But the difficulties with this deck come from anormal situations...
What if you only have 1 Therapy (without Dread Return) in your grave, would you always say FoW? I won't.
What if you have only 2 Therapy (without Dread Return) in your grave and your opponent have 1 or more land untap (With atleast one mana blue), would you always say FoW? I won't.

If you won't combo out that turn and you don’t have a lot of them, Therapies become more difficult. You need to know the deck of your opponent and what he would probably play next turn (or at least, the best play he can do next turn). You need to break that play if that wreck your gameplan or that give him the win. Sometime it’s hard to find, or at least, to choose between options you have…

The same is true about what to discard and how far to dredge against the hate. If you know you’re playing against Bomberman and he started with Island + Mox and you don’t have CotV, what would you discard with your Bazaar?  Will you break your baubles to dredge on his upkeep? In fact, will you even activate Bazaar on your first turn!? In that game, if Bomberman knows that he’s playing against Dredge, there is a high probability that the 2nd turn of Bomberman would probably consist of playing Land + Trinket mage + T. Crypt. So, if you discard the wrong things, dredge too much, etc, you could loose to that play. In another hand, if you go less aggressive and they don’t have that play you will maybe loose a game that you could have won really easily. So what’s the best play? Not always obvious… You have to predict the hate and play around it to not screw yourself, but you have to be aggressive enough that if they don’t play the hate you’ll be able to win (or you’ll be able to make him activate his Crypt Now and have enough fuel (In hand, the rest of your library) to get going after that).
There is lots of mechanical decisions when things going well for you. If you have an “abnormal game” of if you face hate / think you can face hate, the decisions aren’t mechanical… If you make mechanical decisions there, there is a good chance you will loose. Those are the critical games, top8/winning would probably be based upon those decisions here, not the mechanical ones (Could be decided by the “luck factor” of seeing too much Leyline too…).

By the way, you tell in your article that you prefer the Sutured Ghoul kill because if they waste your Bazaar of they stifled the come into play of the Zealot, you will have to beat with small men. I think Stifle couldn’t be a reason for not playing the Zealot, I mean… They could Sword your Ghoul or bounce it with Chain of Vapor. But those are almost irrelevant, I mean, if I combo out, I’ll probably play at least 2 Therapy (possibly 3 or 4), so I will probably get rid of all the hate cards my opponent could cast.
For the Wastland problem, your deck has no answer to it outside dredging away more dredge cards. What if you play cards like Gigapede or Phantasmagorian? That will makes you far less vulnerable to wasteland and you will be able to include Zealot as the kill. With them, you could even reduce the number of dredge card in the deck a little.

There are downsides of running the Ghoul kill too… You could dredge only into Sutured Ghoul (or Worse Dragon Breath), and I see little advantage of having a 12+/* Ghoul than a 12+/12+ Golgary Grave-Troll, at least, if your opponent topdeck a Sword you still have a graveyard with the Grave-Troll. (I say 12 here, because you would most probably already beat them a little!). The Ghoul is Trample, for sure, but will that really matters that much? Is it worth the graveyard loss?
Oh, and by the way, if your opponent open with an Aether Spellbomb, the Ghoul kill is neutralized, not the Zealot one (ok, there is probably more Bomberman here in the north, but still… Aether Spellbomb is still more relevant than stifle for sure!).

EDIT:
Why are you calling this deck manaless Ichorids? I was never a fan of calling that kind of deck Ichorids before, I’m even less a fan now… I mean… Why Ichorids? I usually put more Narcomoeba into play than Ichorids, so why not Manaless Narcomoeba!? Or Manaless Bazaar of Bagdad? Or Manaless Dread Return? Manaless Ichorids isn’t a good description of this deck… The only word that describes correctly this deck is Dredge, that what’s the deck do. Manaless Dredge that makes much more sense…

[Fenrus]

EDIT:
Why are you calling this deck manaless Ichorids? I was never a fan of calling that kind of deck Ichorids before, I’m even less a fan now… I mean… Why Ichorids? I usually put more Narcomoeba into play than Ichorids, so why not Manaless Narcomoeba!? Or Manaless Bazaar of Bagdad? Or Manaless Dread Return? Manaless Ichorids isn’t a good description of this deck… The only word that describes correctly this deck is Dredge, that what’s the deck do. Manaless Dredge that makes much more sense…

I think "Dredge return" makes more sense than anything else, as that's pretty much what the deck does. Not really a fan of the Manaless prefix.

My main concern with ichorid always has been the vast amount of GY hate. Yixid jailer only adds to this concern as it can totally hose this deck for 1B, and still add pressure as just another beater in an almost unlimited number of fish builds. Will this deck really rise to top tier? Granted on the play it has a gigantic advantage, but on the draw especially post sideboard ichorid can easily be decimated.

[Liam-K]

While the deck is probably the easiest to pilot provided you understand the format, it's not *totally* idoit proof.  I've run into situations where I've delayed activating bazaar on my second turn until my mainphase, then proceeded to win the game that turn where it would have definitely been impossible had I not stopped to think and bazaared during my upkeep (in order to go to 2 cards in hand before the discard, allowing me to play a second bazaar).  Likewise, and I'm sure Steve will agree, Street Wraith occasionally presents some descisions which are neither entirely clear nor irrelevant.  And, if you're running the Unmasks, you have to deal with that.

Not saying it's hard or anything, just that there's a nonzero difference between average and perfect play which can make a big difference at times.

[bleakill]

I, too, would have to agree that the deck requires some decision making and 'skill' to pilot. Not that it's huge or anything. The new build is less autopilot that is used to be, however. Little things like bazaaring/cycling at correct times and some subtlety is still present.

[Stamford]

I have a question.

Why not run Cephalid Sage in Ichorid?

It helps increase the chances of a turn 2 win significantly.

Its like, you almost confirmed get a threshold and dread returning it allows for so much more dredging on turn 2 which would definitely lead to turn 2 kills.

[UniversalSnip]

I've also seen some really terrible Ichorid players who were just so incompetent they threw awa the match.

You'd have to actively be trying to throw the match with the deck once somebody showed you the timing rules for all the cards. I have a hard time imagining any Ichorid player being quite bad enough to throw matches away.

Considering I can imagine the average ptq player punting three in a row with this, and considering the average vintage player is as bad or worse than that in my experience...

Mechanically, this deck is a pain in the ass because you have to stay on top of so many different zones at once. It's hardly impossible, but an unfocused player could implode in g3 on that basis alone.

[mox apricot]

cephalid sage is redundant to bazaar more or less, it takes up deck space, it’s a classic “win more” situation, I have yet to come across a turn two dredge return without fatal aggro the board. Granted I run a 7/10 which adds additional meat and slows down the opponent, as well as a huge piece of aggro on its own. But I find sometimes even t he extra max 18 card dredge has problems finding a second dredge, and then you’ve wasted the chance for at least a grave troll for a 2/2. I suppose you could main deck a 3rd dredge return to fix that problem, which I used to do, but I’ve found that with such limited space, it isn’t the best use of deck space

[srancour]

I've been really enjoying this deck and annoying the heck out of people who aren't sure what to do against it, but a question has come up while testing this.  I've been using the list the Smmenen has, with a sideboard of:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Emerald Charm
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Chain of Vapor

Now my question is, of the list, which is the most expendable spot for Flame-kin Zealot.  I didn't like the card at first but I do believe the deck can be a little more diverse with a spot for one.  The ghoul kill has been my favourite since I started playing the deck but I come from a environment of wasteland happy people and the ichorid/narco/nether shadow recursion sometimes wins the game.  I think with those cards and their interaction with cabal therapy and bridge from below are really solid but sometimes could use a hasty overrun option such as the zealot.  It couldn't hurt to have the option of having the zealot win as well.  Now all of these are always situational and it's never a smart thing to rush the combo without taking a stab at your opponents hand without Cabal Therapy for FOW, bounce, STP, etc.

Reason 1:  that odd time your Ghouls seem to be sitting on the bottom 2-4 cards.
Reason 2:  someone who TD's a bounce spell (brainstorm) and you are short of cabal therapies
Reason 3:  Just more of a diverse kill when you can dread return the ghoul and the zealot.

Now I'm not sure which slot can change with the zealot being that all of the cards in the deck have surved their purpose over and over again and seem to be so vitale for this deck to function properly.  Any thoughts or suggestions let me know. 

[wethepeople]

I've been really enjoying this deck and annoying the heck out of people who aren't sure what to do against it, but a question has come up while testing this.  I've been using the list the Smmenen has, with a sideboard of:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Emerald Charm
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Chain of Vapor

How on earth does relying on four lands work out for you? Mana-Less Ichorid generally needs to board in 7-8 land post-board, provided that you are bringing all of your removal in.

[Warden]

I've been using the list the Smmenen has, with a sideboard of:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Emerald Charm
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Chain of Vapor

How on earth does relying on four lands work out for you? Mana-Less Ichorid generally needs to board in 7-8 land post-board, provided that you are bringing all of your removal in.

Unless You're running Dryad Arbors or something, Wethepeople is right, that's pressuring you not only to draw a Gemstone Mine in your opening hand, but to maintain it in play long enough to use answers to possible threats. Drop Grude for Chain of Vapor #4 and add duals/city of brass/something to make mana (preferably of those spells' colors)

[srancour]

My bad, thanks for the posts, it makes complete sense to drop the grudges and put in chain#4 and 3 city of brass.  Did you have any suggestions for the card to drop for the Flame-kin Zealot?

[Warden]

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Emerald Charm
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Chain of Vapor

Srancour, Im gonna guess what I quoted is what you've started with and below is what it became (via your posts): Now if you'd like to throw in a flame kin as well....you have no room
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
4 Emerald Charm
4 Chain of Vapor

I myself am running the standard 7 lands + 8 answers (preferably 4 trop. islands + 3 city's / E.charm + COV). I have thought alot about running Unmask in the SB x4.
I run 4x Dryad Arbor in the MD so the real issue is getting  to play Chain of Vapor. Unmask needs no mana (just black card in hand) which is very easy. Unmask also adds to disruption + clears a path for your win condition. Ex; they could potentially have a solid hand and drop a counter on unmask -- leaving things open for you.
*I need to test this alot but the experimental SB would be:
4x Unmask
4x Dual (Tropical Island)
4x Emerald Charm
3x Chain of Vapor

[srancour]

Well I played the deck this weekend and went 6-0 in single rounds and went 2-0, 2-0, 2-1 to win a local weekend tournament.  I did experiment with the Flame-kin in for the LED, but found there were times were i would have rather had the LED to discard my hand in certain situations.  I will be changing that back.  The field wasn't super strong where I had to worry about one single card.

The matchups in the single rounds were mostly scrubs.  The playoffs were when it got fun.

Round 1 vs. WW (easy matchup) - the guy had no idea how to defend against several cabal therapies and then two huge Ghouls for 2-0

Round 2 vs. Oath.  Game 1: Bazaar gets wasted.  Zombie token beats for the win.  He drew horrible, digging for oath to no prevail and couldn't find a solution after bouncing a few of my creatures.

Game 2:  An interesting matchup, I draw a fairly good hand with Bazaar, and I am able to get another one on my first bazaar draw.  Sadly he has two wastelands and then he draws dead and I swing away with Shadows and Ichorid after a few hard casts.


Finals vs. Red Stax.  Game One, I draw savagely and win on turn two.

Game two:  My only loss of the day.  After several pile shuffles and debateable hands, I mull to 4 and potentially have solutions, he drops two needles and begins to welder in some beats.  I don't last long.

Game three:  Mull to six, FTW.  Savage hand with Bazaar, Chain of Vapor , Troll, Trop, CoV, Bauble  I am able to win on turn three after some good hits on Cabal Therapy making enough zombies + a Ghoul for lethal damage.

SB for the tourny:

4 Emerald Charm
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Gemstone Mines
3 Tropical Island

Had Flame-kin Zealot in instead of LED, bad idea, but Zealot helped in a few situations, but in the end, LED would've been preferred.  Either way, I was patient with the deck, made minimal errors and won.

[silvernail]

if this werent manaless ichorid, breakthrough might be ....umm ... a break through for this deck. Dredge up to 4 times and discard your hand for U. Im working on getting a list working for legacy and breakthrough is pretty nice there. The lack of bazaar hurts though.

[RThomas]

The most skill intensive cards have been removed from the deck:  Unmask and Strip Mine.  You'll (the general use of 'you' - as in, 'you all') will recall my article on Gifts v. Ichorid in which the most skill intensive and game changing decision was whether to Bazaar or Strip Mine.   The second most difficult decision was knowing what to take with Unmask   If there was an opportuinty for someone to screw up, it was one of those.  For instance, taking a Mox or Brainstorm is often the difference between winning and losing against an explosive hand.  Being able to properly evaluate what to take with Unmask is actually much trickier than it seemed, esp. with generic Gifts hands like Mox, Land, Brainstorm, Scroll, etc, etc.   

In short, most of the decision making is now mechanical, but nonetheless people still will manage to screw it up. 

In this admonishment, are you implying that the decisions required by these cards are too unwieldly to make over the course of a tournament, or that you don't think the community is prepared to make these decisions in an in-game setting, or that you are unable to make the correct determinations when the time comes?

Perhaps you find that you are intelligent enough to make the correct decisions with these skill-intensive cards; if so, do you feel that the former version of the deck is stronger in your hands while armed with these skill-maximizing cards such as Unmask and Strip Mine?

[Mr. Anderson]

This is the most recent discussion I've found on Ichorid in Vintage.

While many builds have started playing Street Wraith for the extra dredge, I have been testing Call to the Netherworld in both Legacy and in Extended with positive results in testing.  With the Bazaars would you think it a decent card to run to increase the early dig for the deck?

[Jo84]

I don´t think it´s any good in Vintage Ichorid. Of course, you can play it for 0, but:
a) there is no space, if there is any space, you should first put a set of Street Wraith and then there is no place for that card except you cut Leyline and Chalice, although in this case more dredge and combo pieces seems to be the better choice.
b) the card is too narrow, as Street Wraith is the only card you want to get with CttN.
c) the deck has a decent speed and kills (Game 1) between turn 2 and 3. Turn 1 Kill is nearly impossible with any configuration and Call will not increase the chances of killing turn 2, but will rather make you vulnerable (either you cut Creatures or Chalices/Leylines).

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Some one made a comment earlier about running the 7/10 as an additional threat. At this point in ichorid's evolution there just seems to be no point in dredge returning any creature to play that isn't going to win you the game right then and there. Earlier lists of ichoird died to a decent t crypt, or hard cast of planar void/leyline of the void.  This is because everything but 4 "difficult" to archive 1/1's came from the grave yard every turn. I ran the 7/10 in earlier lists as well to prevent the hard cast and by me a treat if my mechanic gets shut down. no a days you have at least 4 more 1/1 flying aggro pieces that don't need constant grave yard functionality, as well as enough zombie tokens to continuously block the DSC (I've done it). As far as the tempo advantage the 7/10 gave. Your looking at an easily achieve able 3 turn clock and 4x chalice of the void.