Finding the optimal pitch long list

[ErkBek]

I think you've proven my conclusions here. This is really a meta call; I would not expect to play against ravager aggro, oath or stax in the New England meta. We're talking about totally different magic environments. To say that one form of the deck is best might be true for your meta, but it seems completely backwards for mine and vice versa.

UBR long is not a metagame deck, it has customizable slots for a metagame. With those customizable slots I ran 2 Rebuild x2. Let me speak before you make conclusions.

I'm not referring to your deck as a metagame deck, but rather the choice of not running force of will.

I look forward to your summary of the deck, as I think a number of people have made the same conclusion that red is playable in the main of variations of long.

The exclusion of FoW was not a metagame choice, it was to build a better deck.

[Nantuko]

[/quote]

The exclusion of FoW was not a metagame choice, it was to build a better deck.
[/quote]


Uff,its difficult to assure that Ubr Grim long its better in any metagame that pitch long.Its better in all the matchups???
What you win versus drain decks with the lost of fow??


Thanks

[Moxlotus]

The exclusion of FoW was not a metagame choice, it was to build a better deck.
[/quote]


Uff,its difficult to assure that Ubr Grim long its better in any metagame that pitch long.Its better in all the matchups???
What you win versus drain decks with the lost of fow??


Thanks
[/quote]

You do much better against decks that have 4 Merchant Scroll.  Lots better.  You can't sit there and sacrifice card advantage with Force against decks that will just tutor up another one.  Pitch Long was amazing because the Drain deck of choice was Slaver.  Gifts has Force+MisD+Scroll to find more.  Pitch Long can't compete with that kind of reliable counters.  It needs disruption that only costs 1 card and more bombs.

[Nantuko]

The exclusion of FoW was not a metagame choice, it was to build a better deck.

Uff,its difficult to assure that Ubr Grim long its better in any metagame that pitch long.Its better in all the matchups???
What you win versus drain decks with the lost of fow??


Thanks
[/quote]

You do much better against decks that have 4 Merchant Scroll.  Lots better.  You can't sit there and sacrifice card advantage with Force against decks that will just tutor up another one.  Pitch Long was amazing because the Drain deck of choice was Slaver.  Gifts has Force+MisD+Scroll to find more.  Pitch Long can't compete with that kind of reliable counters.  It needs disruption that only costs 1 card and more bombs.
[/quote]


Ok I understand that you need disruption than only costs 1 mana against scroll decks(though u can't win turn 1with fow/misd back up)but what bombs have grim long that doesn't have pitch long??In the last list I see Kobefan he has 2 rebuilds more that i don't consider a bomb and he doesn't play windfall that maybe a bomb.


Thanks

[Moxlotus]

I should have been more specific.  The cards you are pitching to force might be bombs or stuff like Brainstorm which can find bombs.  Plus you free up several slots.  While Becker played 2 Rebuilds, he played 3 bounce, 1 more than most.  And he played 3 because he was expecting Stax.  You could easily cut one for something else like Windfall if you don't expect much.  That frees up 2 or 3 more slots which can go to mana acceleration or tutors or Street Wraith if you're trying that.

[desolutionist]

Ok I understand that you need disruption than only costs 1 mana against scroll decks(though u can't win turn 1with fow/misd back up)but what bombs have grim long that doesn't have pitch long??In the last list I see Kobefan he has 2 rebuilds more that i don't consider a bomb and he doesn't play windfall that maybe a bomb.


Thanks

If mana was the most relevant, you would be playing Forces and MisDs over Duress.  Duress and Cabal Therapy are better against Scrolls because they only use one card where FoW would use two.  The idea is to trade the least number of cards possible with your opponent's Forces and Drains until something gets through.  And as Moxlotus indicated, you really aren't playing more bombs as much as you are playing your bombs differently.  In PL, you tend to focus on the resolution of a specific bomb and the other bombs become FoW fodder.  In GL, you just tend to focus on resolving any bomb.

[LSD/Cruise]

A little off-topic, but how much trouble have you guys had with Duress after a Draw 7 with Duress, compared to the other Pitch Counters?

[Moxlotus]

A little off-topic, but how much trouble have you guys had with Duress after a Draw 7 with Duress, compared to the other Pitch Counters?

Well, Duress is obviously much worse than playing with pitches after you play a draw 7, but not too bad.  It's the same thing as 5c Grim Long has always had to deal with.  Just think of the amount of time you would actually have resolved the draw 7 if you had not used duress to clear the way. 

[LSD/Cruise]

A little off-topic, but how much trouble have you guys had with Duress after a Draw 7 with Duress, compared to the other Pitch Counters?

Well, Duress is obviously much worse than playing with pitches after you play a draw 7, but not too bad.  It's the same thing as 5c Grim Long has always had to deal with.  Just think of the amount of time you would actually have resolved the draw 7 if you had not used duress to clear the way. 

I remember resolving a Yawgmoth's Bargain on turn 2 with FoW backed up, when my first turn Vamp Tutor went for the Lotus...

I'm going to test Duress. I really havent given it a try yet, and it looks promising. Can you give us the pros/cons of Duress v.s. Pitch Counters?

[Purple Hat]

A little off-topic, but how much trouble have you guys had with Duress after a Draw 7 with Duress, compared to the other Pitch Counters?

Well, Duress is obviously much worse than playing with pitches after you play a draw 7, but not too bad.  It's the same thing as 5c Grim Long has always had to deal with.  Just think of the amount of time you would actually have resolved the draw 7 if you had not used duress to clear the way. 

I remember resolving a Yawgmoth's Bargain on turn 2 with FoW backed up, when my first turn Vamp Tutor went for the Lotus...

I'm going to test Duress. I really havent given it a try yet, and it looks promising. Can you give us the pros/cons of Duress v.s. Pitch Counters?

In my mind I would say the main advantage of duress is that you don't have to pitch anything to it, it only costs 1 mana and you get to look at your opponent's hand.  the main disadvantage is that it costs 1 mana which can slow you down by a turn or cost you your protection.  it also can't be used to answer things like meddling mage or true believer and thus forces you to rely on your bounce a little more heavily.  however you're probably playing the bounce anyway so....

The main advantage of force of will/Misd is that it doesn't cost any mana so you can win earlier with protection in many cases and it sometimes allows you to steal an ancestral/DA early and just roll people.  The problem is that you have to pitch something.  the reason that you don't play duress and force/misd in the same deck is that if you're playing a duress/force package then most of your blue cards are your bombs.  what's the point of casting a bomb to initiate a counter war, then pitching another bomb to attempt to win said counter war?  why pitch a spell at all?  why not just throw bombs at walls til something gets through?  Misd gives you an additional 2-3 blue cards that you don't lose anything significant by pitching to force.  pitching twister or ancestral or timewalk or desire to force tends to hurt more later than pitching misd or just continuing to throw spells out there til your opponent runs out of answers.

[p0ps]

what's the point of casting a bomb to initiate a counter war, then pitching another bomb to attempt to win said counter war?  why pitch a spell at all?  why not just throw bombs at walls til something gets through? 

Well the point is that you don't always have available mana to cast more than one bomb a turn. Running into a wall of drains isn't a particulary good play when the next thing you say is "next". It's just a tempo thing. Let your opponent with 2-4 fresh mana at their turn and you probably won't be in good position... If you think you can handle Mana Drains with duress+bomb, no problem. I don't know for you, but by playing Pitch Long, I never often had "too much" mana which I could've spend on duress instead of FoW.

The big idea here is that you can afford going off a turn earlier with backup several times as compared to duress builds.

Few persons still seem to think Duress Vs Pitch is a skill matter. Bad news, it's not. It's just playing with the Brokeness/Regularity balance. I believe Brokeness should be priviliged.

[Moxlotus]

what's the point of casting a bomb to initiate a counter war, then pitching another bomb to attempt to win said counter war?  why pitch a spell at all?  why not just throw bombs at walls til something gets through? 

Well the point is that you don't always have available mana to cast more than one bomb a turn. Running into a wall of drains isn't a particulary good play when the next thing you say is "next". It's just a tempo thing. Let your opponent with 2-4 fresh mana at their turn and you probably won't be in good position... If you think you can handle Mana Drains with duress+bomb, no problem. I don't know for you, but by playing Pitch Long, I never often had "too much" mana which I could've spend on duress instead of FoW.

The big idea here is that you can afford going off a turn earlier with backup several times as compared to duress builds.

Few persons still seem to think Duress Vs Pitch is a skill matter. Bad news, it's not. It's just playing with the Brokeness/Regularity balance. I believe Brokeness should be priviliged.

Exactly.  Which was why PL was developed in the first place.  However, things have changed.  Slaver is no longer the premier control deck which you can just overrun with pitch spells.  Gifts is the premier Drain deck.  It uses just as many pitch counters as we do, and has Merchant Scroll to find them.  The fact of the matter is they will match your bomb and your first counter with their counters.  Duress at least means you don't lose card advantage.  The Long v. Gifts matchup really is a matter of attrition.  It's all about if you can force them to find and use 2 counters in the first two turns.  If you can't, they will use their drain mana to Gifts for broken and bury you while you do nothing.  If you can, they are down a bunch of cards compared to you--so you can produce a threat on turn 3--right after they spent their main phase Gifting for broken.  If they Gifted for counters, well you just have to run into another one and then see who topdecks better (hint: you do).  Duress makes it easier to be able to make this turn 3 play FTW.  I"ve found most Long victories against Gifts occur at turn 3 or 4, right after this series of events I've just described.

Gifts has the ability to find and produce counters much better than Slaver did.  This is why PL thrived, it could run over Slaver while it played a Goblin Welder.  Gifts is spending its turn Scrolling for more counters.  It is a war of attrition which the person playing pitch spells will lose.

That said, PL is better against Stax than a duress packing version I believe.

[Purple Hat]

what's the point of casting a bomb to initiate a counter war, then pitching another bomb to attempt to win said counter war?  why pitch a spell at all?  why not just throw bombs at walls til something gets through? 

Well the point is that you don't always have available mana to cast more than one bomb a turn. Running into a wall of drains isn't a particulary good play when the next thing you say is "next". It's just a tempo thing. Let your opponent with 2-4 fresh mana at their turn and you probably won't be in good position... If you think you can handle Mana Drains with duress+bomb, no problem. I don't know for you, but by playing Pitch Long, I never often had "too much" mana which I could've spend on duress instead of FoW.

The big idea here is that you can afford going off a turn earlier with backup several times as compared to duress builds.

Few persons still seem to think Duress Vs Pitch is a skill matter. Bad news, it's not. It's just playing with the Brokeness/Regularity balance. I believe Brokeness should be priviliged.

I was only refering to the force/duress protection package.  the problem with that package is that if they counter your bomb and you use force on their counter, more than likely you just pitched a second bomb so if for some reason you don't win this turn you've just been countered twice.

[jakjakman]

The Long v. Gifts matchup really is a matter of attrition.

Here's a good article that goes through several games of the PLong vs. Gifts match.  Just like Moxlotus describes, Pitch Long has a slightly uphill battle.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=13473

[LSD/Cruise]

But isnt FoW better than Duress against a deck like Fish?

[Nantuko]

But isnt FoW better than Duress against a deck like Fish?

yes in my opinion its better fow than duress against fish,but its depends in the number of fish in yur metagame and the nunber of drain decks

[Stamford]

But isnt FoW better than Duress against a deck like Fish?

Frankly, when I play versus Fish using Grim Long, i never ever had a problem.

A turn 1 Duress or so just takes away the most immediate threat they can present, (FOW, Null Rod, Chalice or Daze)

I also normally tend to combo off relatively fast and just win straight, since by technicality, Grim Long always combo off faster than Pitch Long, approximately 0.5 turns faster.

After sideboarding, bringing in Xantid Swarms wins me the counter game every time, your opponent will be torn between bringing in more hate for combo or bringing in hate for creatures. Echoing Truth is not really a solution and even if it is, you would have just traded a Xantid Swarm for 2-3 cards. (FoW and fodder, Echoing truth itself)
Xantid Swarm also clearly announces your opponent's situation. Its either "I dont have a counter!" or "I have just used a counter!" Both of which serves your purpose.
If your opponent is playing Duress, Swarms are immune to it too.

I often have games where my opponent has out Card Advantaged me with Fish and has 1-2 critters on board with Null Rod or Chalice locking up my mana and Wastelands destroying my lands. However, my turn 1 Xantid Swarm saves me by nullifying all the Card Advantage my opponent has gained and allows me to successfully Hurkyl's Recall or Chain of Vapor and play down my artifact accelerants.

Xantid Swarm also work well with Draw7s and should not be overlooked. Their ability to remove your opponent's interaction basically means you can focus entirely on winning and not spend mana on Duress and safty precautions.
All you need is to turn Swarm sideways. Even if Swarm dies after its attack to a flyer, it would have served its purpose of phasing out your opponent.

I can also play the mind game and choose whether or not to board in Empty the Warrens for a quick simple kill backed up with Duress protection.

[p0ps]

Xantid Swarm also clearly announces your opponent's situation. Its either "I dont have a counter!" or "I have just used a counter!" Both of which serves your purpose.
If your opponent is playing Duress, Swarms are immune to it too.

First, I really donno where Xantid comes useful to this discussion. Anyway... your opponent's situation is not that clear when you play Xantid. Your opponent might be playing Stifles or Swords to Plowshares or even don't want to counter your Xantid because he thinks you're trying to hide a bomb.

Oh and, Swarms are immune to duress, the spells you play to win are not.

[Moxlotus]

I also normally tend to combo off relatively fast and just win straight, since by technicality, Grim Long always combo off faster than Pitch Long, approximately 0.5 turns faster.
 

What are you talking about?  Pitch Long wins faster because it doesn't have to spend a turn or a mana casting its disruption.  It is one of the reasons to play Pitch Long.

[Stamford]

I also normally tend to combo off relatively fast and just win straight, since by technicality, Grim Long always combo off faster than Pitch Long, approximately 0.5 turns faster.
 

What are you talking about?  Pitch Long wins faster because it doesn't have to spend a turn or a mana casting its disruption.  It is one of the reasons to play Pitch Long.

Im talking about self-goldfishing.

Those games you play against nobody whereby you just focus on getting the kill and nothing else.

In those kind of games, you will expect Grim long to be faster.
That was what i meant by "technicality".