[Post-FS Deck Discussion] Hulk Flash, Hulk Smash

[TheKing23]

I'm not sure if there's any threads open about this new particular Flash variant, but one of my good friends taught me the tech of Slivers in Flash. (Here's a hint, they become hasty and swing for 20 Poison, all with a total CC of 6!!) It frees up many slots dedicated to all the pieces of Kiki-Jiki Flash, only needing 5 cards for the kill.  This leaves tons of room for more counters/draw, and is more consistent.  More combo pieces = more of a chance to have too many of them in your hand.  I've tested both versions extensively, and a Hulk Flash deck that runs Slivers instead of Kiki-Jiki, Carrion Feeder, Karmic Guide and Body Snatcher, is much, much more consistent.


I'll post my list if someone can figure out the Slivers needed!!

[Aardshark]

I'm not sure if there's any threads open about this new particular Flash variant, but one of my good friends taught me the tech of Slivers in Flash. (Here's a hint, they become hasty and swing for 20 Poison, all with a total CC of 6!!) It frees up many slots dedicated to all the pieces of Kiki-Jiki Flash, only needing 5 cards for the kill.  This leaves tons of room for more counters/draw, and is more consistent.  More combo pieces = more of a chance to have too many of them in your hand.  I've tested both versions extensively, and a Hulk Flash deck that runs Slivers instead of Kiki-Jiki, Carrion Feeder, Karmic Guide and Body Snatcher, is much, much more consistent.


I'll post my list if someone can figure out the Slivers needed!!

This is now established, and has been for some time (see Breathweapon's May 31st post in this thread).  All the top flash decks at the TMD open in July played the sliver kill. See http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=vin&start_date=2007-07-22&end_date=2007-07-22.

Actually slivers take up an additional slot compared to the kiki-jiki kill:
4 virulant sliver + heart sliver = 5, versus
Kiki-jiki + Karmic Guide + Carrion Feeder + Body Snacher = 4. 

The biggest advantage of the sliver kill is that you avoid hate--particularly pithing needle and crypt (a lesser advantage is that you can hardcast the virulant slivers and beatdown--nothing to sneeze at). 

Note however that now that goblins, suicide black, and other random aggro are catching on, people are considering switching back to the kiki-jiki kill to avoid losing to blockers on the board.  Kiki-Jiki also seems better to me Becker's super-linear serum powder flash variant is your thing (with two copies of each combo piece and no body snatcher).

[TheKing23]

Alright, that's too bad then. lol...Anyways, what answers does Sui-Black and Goblins have? If i can remember right Goblins can go with pitching a red card and dealing 4 damage as chosen (can't remember the name right now), and Sui-Black might be able to go 1st turn swamp Dark Rit, Hymn, and possibly Extripate if they Hymn a combo piece. I've been playing around with Research//Development in the SB, just in case that happens, and the Goblins answer can be easily countered, although I've also been considering a Winged Sliver to fly over opposing fields of Goblins. But, here's my list as of now.

// Lands
   2  Flooded Strand
   1  Island
   2  Polluted Delta
   4  Tropical Island
   4  Underground Sea
// Creatures
   1  Elvish Spirit Guide
   1  Heart Sliver
   4  Protean Hulk
   4  Virulent Sliver
// Spells
   1  Ancestral Recall
   1  Black Lotus
   4  Brainstorm
   2  Chain of Vapor
   1  Demonic Tutor
   4  Flash
   4  Force of Will
   1  Lotus Petal
   1  Mana Crypt
   3  Merchant Scroll
   1  Mox Emerald
   1  Mox Jet
   1  Mox Pearl
   1  Mox Ruby
   1  Mox Sapphire
   1  Mystical Tutor
   4  Pact of Negation
   3  Summoner's Pact
   1  Time Walk
   1  Vampiric Tutor
// Sideboard
SB: 2  Seal of Primordium
SB: 3  Trygon Predator
SB: 1  Echoing Truth
SB: 1  Krosan Grip
SB: 1  Tinker
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

   I think you’re grossly under estimating goblins. The deck is very fast, with main deck leylines standard. Between lacky and vial, turn 2 is plenty of time for them to get a large amount of blockers on the board. Having a lacky in play, vial untapped, or random aggro untapped buys goblins an extra turn for them. If it’s a mog fanatic, keep in mind this thing has a surprisingly good draw/search engine, your not getting a sliver threw unless the goblins play lets you. Winged sliver only compounds this problem. Recent builds are VERY explosive. The turn it takes you to scroll for chain and then cast it, can cost you the game. These are only pre SB threats, major threats.
   
   The SB only compounds this problem with rebs, pyrokanisis, and pyrostatic pillar.

   The match up is by all means not imposable. Just don’t write goblins off. Focus on playing faster and cleaner to beat them, opposed to using slower chunkier cards like winged sliver. Don’t over look blue blasts as a solution. It hits everything but gem palm cycle. Even tinker DSC is more sound than winged sliver.


edit: P.S. its 10 poison for lethal, not 20.

[Aardshark]

I second that wing sliver is woefully suboptimal.  I tried this in the SB of my original sliver kill.  When it mattered, I just couldn't afford the turn winged sliver was costing me (and this was two months ago, before goblins was back on the radar).

@ King

Your maindeck looks fine.  Four PoN is a little high, but they are getting better with the return of mana drain so its a fine meta call. 

My main quibble is your mana base.  22 mana sources (not counting summoner's pact) is high.  Most folks make due with 19-20, cutting some combination of mox pearl, mox ruby, lotus petal and/or a land (I don't recommend the latter unless you play land sideboard). You also want more fetches, as shuffling post brainstorm is key for this deck.  I also prefer more basics, so wastland & bloodmoon effects are less painful.  You don't need 4 trops, and 4 U-seas is probably overkill also.  I'm running:

4 Polluted Delta
2 flooded strand
3 underground sea
1 tropical island
2 island
1 swamp

1 Black lotus
1 Mana Crypt
4 Mox (no pearl)
1 esg

You could argue against swamp in favor of another trop, island, or fetch (but beware of mindcensor), and for lotus petal over ruby.

Your sideboard needs 3 more cards (including perhaps a target for tinker?) Most folks are using duress as protection.  Reverent silence is great if leylines are abundant in your meta. Grip and Predator could be techy in the right meta. I'm too lazy to look up what seal does, but its hard to imagine its optimal. 

edit: P.S. its 10 poison for lethal, not 20.

He's right that you deliver 20 poison counters (2x lethal) when you attack with the full compliment of 4 virulent and 1 heart sliver.

[TheKing23]

I've tested against goblins between matches at FNM last week, the latest build, most explosive, etc. etc. and I lost twice to it in 10 games.  Somehow, I don't think I'm underestimating goblins.
The high # of mana sources works quite well, especially to help ensure that you combo off ASAP.

The SB hasn't really been the result of hours upon hours of testing, it just came with the deck (my friend figured that this would be perfect to get me into some vintage, and he was right). A Chain of Vapor in the MD will most likely turn into a Revered Silence, since within my test group i have goblins with MD Leyline, Sui-Black with MD Leyline, <insert deck here> with MD Leyline. Truly, the only matchup I haven't tested against is probably the hardest one for any deck right now, and that's GAT.

Currently, after SB, PoN is a free counter, if I side in the Tinker/Plat. Angel, and the Predator is sometimes good against Oath (I haven't tested it much against it, but you can usually just counter Oath, so the Predators are looking more and more like they're getting cut in favor of possibly Sudden Death, R&D, or something better).

[Aardshark]

I've tested against goblins between matches at FNM last week, the latest build, most explosive, etc. etc. and I lost twice to it in 10 games.  Somehow, I don't think I'm underestimating goblins.

I have not tested this matchup myself, but I've heard it can give Hulk-Flash trouble.

I don't know what version you tested against (or how competent the pilot), but here's a link to the version that took 2nd at Waterbury in a field full of flash and GAT: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=22455.  This same build placed two people in the top 8 of local tournament in Berkeley, CA.  Goblins is an aggro-control deck, so I'm not sure the "most explosive" build would be best.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@ the king23

it's also important to test against an unexperienced pilot. I've tested against this build with some of the best goblin pilots (I like the sound of that) out there, they can eat through flash like you wouldn't believe.

[Vegeta2711]

I'm pretty sure I've beaten Flash w/ Gobs every single game that's lasted past turn 2. That isn't to say they won't take a fair amount by winning before you get a turn or blowing through dubs disruption if you don't have Leyline, but I'm fairly sure if you run any amount of REB and normal removal (goblin or instant) along with Leyline of the Void, you'll come out ahead in the long run.

[diopter]

I'm pretty sure I've beaten Flash w/ Gobs every single game that's lasted past turn 2. That isn't to say they won't take a fair amount by winning before you get a turn or blowing through dubs disruption if you don't have Leyline, but I'm fairly sure if you run any amount of REB and normal removal (goblin or instant) along with Leyline of the Void, you'll come out ahead in the long run.

Why not just circumvent all that with sideboarded Tarmogoyfs? You have more countermagic than they do so you can force through a Flash for three Tarmogoyfs (which circumvents most things they can throw at you), or you can just hardcast them.

[Will]

The problem with Tarmogoyf out of the sideboard is the prevalence of Leyline in many metagames.  It is common knowledge that Leyline eats Flash bad so a better sideboard option for decks packing leyline and not many creatures is to sideboard out your pacts for Dark Confidants and Quirion Dryads so you can still combo out with flash but are not relying on your ability to beat leyline.  Then for game 3 they play the guessing game by hoping that you boarded your 100% flash combo back in instead of the creature kill.  It really makes much more sense than boarding in a creature relying on the graveyard to beat decks that will side in graveyard hate. 

[Vegeta2711]

I'm pretty sure I've beaten Flash w/ Gobs every single game that's lasted past turn 2. That isn't to say they won't take a fair amount by winning before you get a turn or blowing through dubs disruption if you don't have Leyline, but I'm fairly sure if you run any amount of REB and normal removal (goblin or instant) along with Leyline of the Void, you'll come out ahead in the long run.

Why not just circumvent all that with sideboarded Tarmogoyfs? You have more countermagic than they do so you can force through a Flash for three Tarmogoyfs (which circumvents most things they can throw at you), or you can just hardcast them.

Goblins could beat DSC consistently when it was laid on turn 2/3. I think I can trump three whole 3/4's or 4/5's, especially if you run Siege-Gang Commander. Unless of course Goblins stopped running all creature removal and Flash is going to magically have 2-3 non-pact, non-mis D counters in addition to whatever they used to force Flash through. Or you had such a crappy hand a normal Flash draw would've killed you anyway, in which case mull ftw. Goyf is probably one of the worst answers to Goblins you could add in ranging from annoying to outright getting killed because you aren't trying to win on turn one, depending on what the Goblins player boarded in against you.

Unlikely seems to be the main theme of this presentation.

[APriestOfGix]

Am i the only fool who still likes the turn 0 win?

I have been still running to an amazing effect the turn 0 win.  The only rpoblem is the combo takes up MUCH more room, but it's not creature hatable, and it win before they can play Mox/Chalice.

[Aardshark]

Aside from some toying with transformational sideboards, there's been very little development of of Hulk-Flash in months. As veggies wrote in his most recent article, the hulk-flash lists all seem to be within 2 or 3 cards of one another. 

With that in mind, Ryan Marek's T8 deck from the most recent Myriad Games tourney is doing something different!

7th Ryan Marek -- Flash

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Pact of Negation
3x Summoner's Pact
4x Flash
4x Protean Hulk
4x Virulent Sliver
1x Heart Sliver
4x Merchant Scroll
4x Gush
1x Fastbond
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
3x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
2x Island
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Pearl
1x Elvish Spirit Guide

Sideboard
4x Reverent Silence
2x Smother
3x Oxidize
1x Tinker
1x Darksteel Colossus
4x Leyline of the Void

Around the time of the "turn of the format" (June 1), someone on here said that if anyone found a way to fit gush into flash they'd break the metagame (or something to that effect). 

Not sure if that bold statement has come to pass, but Ryan's build is certainly interesting.  By trading combo protection (duress/misdirection/daze/etc) for the gush/fastbond engine, this build's trades the liklihood of a protected early win for the ability to overwhelm the opponent with multiple attempts. 

My first thought was that putting Gush in flash would be bad because you'll draw your combo pieces, but of course this argument proves too much and can't be right! (If drawing cards was bad Ancestral Recall would be terrible).  I imagine that if you draw your slivers the plan is to cast them and swing while disrupting the opponent (2 slivers are almost as fast as a quirion dryad). The hidden synergy of gush as a mana accelerant to aid in hardcasting protean hulk must not be overlooked!

I know this deck is extremely tight, but a few omissions surprise me -- specifically Yawg Will and a storm spell (Tendrils, EtW -- switching a volcanic for a trop is easy enough, or even Brainfreeze) for an alternate win.  I'd look first to cut down on the pacts (especially summoner's), since the decreased protection makes them more dangerous.  I'd also be tempted to trade a merchant scroll for a mystical tutor, to help find yawg will, EtW and tendrils.

In sum, this build seems like a fascinating innovation -- still, I wonder if the benefits outweith the costs.  What are peoples's thoughts on this?

[rammgorr]

hi everyone,

i've tested this gush-fastbond-sliver deck this weekend against a fishy dreadnought version with a lot counterspells, and it sucked for me. after playing i lose 8 games out of ten. by trying the slivers i lose one cardslot to the kiki-jiki-kill. by using 4 gush/fastbond there are 1-2 protection slots missed. with the pact of negation, i can't counter everything that hits the board. its only used to protect my combo. so, ive got only 4 force left. thats to less against any fish-deck. and after 3-5 turns, there are always 1-3 creatures on the board to stop the slivers.
the next time i test with
4x force
3x pact of negation
2x misdirection
1-2x daze

at my last tourney i went second (germany) with the 4 card kiki-jiki-kill, 4 force, 4 pon, 2 misd. sometimes i get real lucky 
here a link to my deck:http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=10082:

[ThePunaniSlayer]

4 Protean Hulk
2 Body Snatcher
1 Benevolent Bodyguard
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Karmic Guide
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
(Credits to TheInfamousBearAssassin of the Source for the small list of combo creatures)

4 Brainstorm
4 Flash
4 Force of Will
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Pact of Negation
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Misdirection
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk

5 Moxen
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt

So, I've been seeing decks like this a lot recently on MWS, on which I test a good deal.  I think that the breaking point that led to me testing this deck for myself was getting killed 8 times in a row on Turn 1, with counter back-up each time and double back-up twice (when I had Force of Will), and triple back-up once (when I had dubs Force).  Now, it's clear that none of these lists were optimized.  They all use the Disciple kill, which takes up a massive amount of deckspace and is not infallible (mini-Tendrils can put you out of range).  The kill posted by TIBA on The Source is a much tighter one (obviously), and should now be used exclusively.  The deck that Turn Oned me so many times ran Drains in lieu of Misdirections (Why?  I have no idea.  I suggested Misdirections, and the fellow left immediately).  This is a list as close to being 'optimized' as I can conceive of at the moment. 

Now, it should be noted that, at the moment, the metagame evolutions concerning Flash.dec are occurring at a very rapid clip.  New evolutions, it seems, are posted hourly on The Source; the Vintage and Legacy forums here both have threads dedicated to the deck; there is no forum without a discussion of the latest rage.  Hulk, unlike many other fads, is actually the real deal.  This deck is absurd.  To those who say that it and Ichorid fold to the same hate, I ask you this: does Ichorid consistently goldfish Turn ~1-2, have 5 tutors that grab the answers to any hate, and run an UnWasteable (TM) manabase?  No.  Summoner's Pact means 8 Hulks, and Scroll means 8 Flash.  Add to that simply Ancestral, Brainstorm, and Mystical, and you can easily get all of your pieces by Turn 2-3 at the very latest.  Brainstorm is also used for the same purpose that it is used in Oath (to put combo pieces back into the library). 

Why is this deck better than Rector Flash?  It is better because its combo wins the game right then and there, it runs a whopping 11 counterspells (all free), and it runs 9 tutors.  Someone asked me on MWS why this was a combo deck.  After all, most combo decks really on an intricate play series that culminates in a Tendrils of Agony.  This deck is a pure combo deck; it is like Trix as a psychotic addict hopped up on PCP.  Two cards; two mana; that's game.  No other deck, ever, has been able to do that.  This is uncharted territory.  For the first time, we have a very cheap combo protected by copious countermagic and with a huge chunk of tutors.  To those who want to add Street Wraith, I ask; my God, what do you cut?  I cannot fathom removing a card from this decklist.  I urge you to post here with testing results, and to shatter my fragile ego by pointing out that there are flaws (which of course there are).  Also, I'm having trouble constructing a sideboard (because cutting cards game 2, much like in Meandeck Tendrils, is very difficult).  Thanks in advance for any help.  Peace.

your deck is missing 2 cards, what are they?

[islanderboi10]

hi everyone,

i've tested this gush-fastbond-sliver deck this weekend against a fishy dreadnought version with a lot counterspells, and it sucked for me. after playing i lose 8 games out of ten. by trying the slivers i lose one cardslot to the kiki-jiki-kill. by using 4 gush/fastbond there are 1-2 protection slots missed. with the pact of negation, i can't counter everything that hits the board. its only used to protect my combo. so, ive got only 4 force left. thats to less against any fish-deck. and after 3-5 turns, there are always 1-3 creatures on the board to stop the slivers.

The problem i see with running Gushbond engine in flash is you draw cards.  I know that it may seem like a good thing, but flash has many tutors, and you just need to tutor for the win the fastest way possible.  There are some cards you dont want to see, and when you draw a bunch of cards, you have a better chance at seeing them.  The only cards you really ever want to see is the combo, and counterspells (other than the obvious mana).  Flash has been built to see those cards, or tutor for those cards fast.

The only reasoning for cutting a pact of negation or two is for daze, which is also a free counter.  The reasoning behind that is your opponent exhause all their resources to stop flash, daze is usually a hard counter, and you also dont lose the game next turn....usually.

But Pact is good to not cut.  It is a hard counter that lets you resolve Flash+hulk faster.


My .02 cents.

[Everrid1234]

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