[Post-FS Deck Discussion] Hulk Flash, Hulk Smash

[Implacable]

4 Protean Hulk
2 Body Snatcher
1 Benevolent Bodyguard
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Karmic Guide
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
(Credits to TheInfamousBearAssassin of the Source for the small list of combo creatures)

4 Brainstorm
4 Flash
4 Force of Will
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Pact of Negation
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Misdirection
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk

5 Moxen
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt

So, I've been seeing decks like this a lot recently on MWS, on which I test a good deal.  I think that the breaking point that led to me testing this deck for myself was getting killed 8 times in a row on Turn 1, with counter back-up each time and double back-up twice (when I had Force of Will), and triple back-up once (when I had dubs Force).  Now, it's clear that none of these lists were optimized.  They all use the Disciple kill, which takes up a massive amount of deckspace and is not infallible (mini-Tendrils can put you out of range).  The kill posted by TIBA on The Source is a much tighter one (obviously), and should now be used exclusively.  The deck that Turn Oned me so many times ran Drains in lieu of Misdirections (Why?  I have no idea.  I suggested Misdirections, and the fellow left immediately).  This is a list as close to being 'optimized' as I can conceive of at the moment. 

Now, it should be noted that, at the moment, the metagame evolutions concerning Flash.dec are occurring at a very rapid clip.  New evolutions, it seems, are posted hourly on The Source; the Vintage and Legacy forums here both have threads dedicated to the deck; there is no forum without a discussion of the latest rage.  Hulk, unlike many other fads, is actually the real deal.  This deck is absurd.  To those who say that it and Ichorid fold to the same hate, I ask you this: does Ichorid consistently goldfish Turn ~1-2, have 5 tutors that grab the answers to any hate, and run an UnWasteable (TM) manabase?  No.  Summoner's Pact means 8 Hulks, and Scroll means 8 Flash.  Add to that simply Ancestral, Brainstorm, and Mystical, and you can easily get all of your pieces by Turn 2-3 at the very latest.  Brainstorm is also used for the same purpose that it is used in Oath (to put combo pieces back into the library). 

Why is this deck better than Rector Flash?  It is better because its combo wins the game right then and there, it runs a whopping 11 counterspells (all free), and it runs 9 tutors.  Someone asked me on MWS why this was a combo deck.  After all, most combo decks really on an intricate play series that culminates in a Tendrils of Agony.  This deck is a pure combo deck; it is like Trix as a psychotic addict hopped up on PCP.  Two cards; two mana; that's game.  No other deck, ever, has been able to do that.  This is uncharted territory.  For the first time, we have a very cheap combo protected by copious countermagic and with a huge chunk of tutors.  To those who want to add Street Wraith, I ask; my God, what do you cut?  I cannot fathom removing a card from this decklist.  I urge you to post here with testing results, and to shatter my fragile ego by pointing out that there are flaws (which of course there are).  Also, I'm having trouble constructing a sideboard (because cutting cards game 2, much like in Meandeck Tendrils, is very difficult).  Thanks in advance for any help.  Peace.

[diopter]

Questions and comments, etc.:

-> Have you tested a single ESG to fetch with Summoner's Pact? I think that would be a justifiable inclusion.

-> The manabase seems a bit shaky... you only have 11 sources of blue. Has this been a problem?

-> My initial impression of the Flash deck with the Kiki kill was that it would probably benefit from having the instant speed kill provided by Teardrop Kami and Bloodshot Cyclops. That way, Pact of Negation could be used an defensive counterspell (say, against Long about to go off) once you've laid two mana down.

[Implacable]

Questions and comments, etc.:

-> Have you tested a single ESG to fetch with Summoner's Pact? I think that would be a justifiable inclusion.

No I have not, but that seems like something to test out.  Getting the extra mana would probably only come up once in a blue moon, but it may be good considering that I only run 8 mana accelerators (instead of the usual 10 artifacts).  My only potential problem with the idea is that cutting even a single card is very, very difficult.  Each card in this deck contributes to what is needed in a major way.

-> The manabase seems a bit shaky... you only have 11 sources of blue. Has this been a problem?

No.  This deck needs, at most, 2 sources of blue per game (and that is rare).  Consider: there are 17 cards in this deck that require mana to cast.  None of them have CMC > 2, and none of them take more than  to cast.  I need exactly 1 Island to win.

-> My initial impression of the Flash deck with the Kiki kill was that it would probably benefit from having the instant speed kill provided by Teardrop Kami and Bloodshot Cyclops. That way, Pact of Negation could be used an defensive counterspell (say, against Long about to go off) once you've laid two mana down.

Why wouldn't you go off on your turn against a fast combo deck?  It's not like they'll be able to disrupt you more than you can disrupt them.

[diopter]

-> My initial impression of the Flash deck with the Kiki kill was that it would probably benefit from having the instant speed kill provided by Teardrop Kami and Bloodshot Cyclops. That way, Pact of Negation could be used an defensive counterspell (say, against Long about to go off) once you've laid two mana down.

Why wouldn't you go off on your turn against a fast combo deck?  It's not like they'll be able to disrupt you more than you can disrupt them.

I'm more thinking that you against a deck with a similar clock, you could use Pact like you would use a FoW (countering his bombs) instead of a Misdirection effect (protecting your bombs) and then win on your upkeep.

-> Have you tested a single ESG to fetch with Summoner's Pact? I think that would be a justifiable inclusion.

No I have not, but that seems like something to test out.  Getting the extra mana would probably only come up once in a blue moon, but it may be good considering that I only run 8 mana accelerators (instead of the usual 10 artifacts).  My only potential problem with the idea is that cutting even a single card is very, very difficult.  Each card in this deck contributes to what is needed in a major way.

I'm more thinking that drawing S.Pact and Hulk in your hand is equivalent to mulliganing to 6. At least with a Spirit Guide you can turn a whole class of hands into keepable hands, with a deck that already has a lot of sketchy hands.

Also, you have a grand total of 16 mana sources, but all of your important spells cost 2 mana (Scroll and Flash). The first mana may be easy to get (*may* be... read on...) but you really want to consistently get the second mana. ESG will help, I think.

-> The manabase seems a bit shaky... you only have 11 sources of blue. Has this been a problem?

No.  This deck needs, at most, 2 sources of blue per game (and that is rare).  Consider: there are 17 cards in this deck that require mana to cast.  None of them have CMC > 2, and none of them take more than  to cast.  I need exactly 1 Island to win.

I'm still skeptical. Yes, you only have 17 cards that need mana, but you still need to spend two mana to win. As I said before, your important spells cost two mana, and reachign that flashpoint consistently (>90%) should be the goal.

However, I will comment more on the manabase when I test the deck.

[nataz]

I tested a version almost card for card, and found that I really wanted a 9th land and a ESG (to turn an extra pact into a mox).

I also had a more even mix of PoN and Misdirections so I could better protect set-up spells like scroll/chain. PoN is better when going off, but MisD is better when you are trying to get rid of something on the table, or tutor for the win next turn obv.

While chain is good, I had a lot of luck with repeal. Mostly I was targeting needle/crypt which is +1 at most, and it cantriped when not needed. I really like the cantrip, which brings me to another point...

I hate stalling out with this deck. 4 Brainstorm, and 1 recall to find a potential 2 card combo. While it's true that the combo comes from 2 8 card sets, still it can be a pain to find them, and you can't really play a control role. So if the flash does get countered, you are back to trying to topdeck. I really wanted a way to cram more draw into the deck, which is why I want to fit something like wraith in so bad. There must be a way. 

P.S.

One of the nice things about running the Hulk combo in a pure (non-rector) sense is that you can drop the dark rituals. If you aren't planing on hardcasting the rector, dark rituals essentialy become dead cards (or at best one shot mana crypts) until you are trying to go off and snatch the BB for tendrils. You have to run at least 2-3 to make sure you get get one in a timely manner w/out having to blow a tutor, and they aren't even all that good for storming off like a regular long builds because of the general lack of other accelerents.

[BreathWeapon]

Thanks for putting down Rector Flash and picking up Hulk Flash, because I was starting to think that the entire ManaDrain had their heads up their rectums for 2003.dec

This is where I'm at,

4 Force of Will
4 Misdirection
4 Duress
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor

4 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall

4 Flash

4 Summoner's Pact
4 Protean Hulk
1 Elvish Spirit Guide

1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Brerak
1 Karmic Guide
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Body Snatcher

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp

and I'm convinced it's the best deck in the format.

There's no point in the opponent even SBing in Pithing Needle, because the opponent is just going to to get Flash, Protean Hulk for Karmic Guide and Carrion Feeder, and the Karmic Guide  reanimates the Protean Hulk and that leaves 9 power on the board.

I hate, hate hate Pact of Negation, all it does is end the game if the opponent wins the counter war and it allows the opponent to use Unmask and Cabal Therapy to discard your Protean Hulks before you can win on your upkeep or discard your combo pieces with Leyline of the Void on the board.

Duress is pretty much mandatory, because you will get raped by Extirpate with out it.

[LotusHead]

4 Protean Hulk
2 Body Snatcher
1 Benevolent Bodyguard
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Karmic Guide
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
(Credits to TheInfamousBearAssassin of the Source for the small list of combo creatures)

It would be nice to have how the combo pieces play out actually spelled out in a starting post.  Now I have to go on Gatherer to look up each card and figure it out.

[o]

@BreathWeapon: Don't you just lose if you draw a piece of the combo?

EDIT: Now I see.  Thanks Implacable for explaining the combo; it's a bit tricky.

[Implacable]

To BreathWeapon:

Although I have some minor quibbles with that list (I'd cut the Swamp and a Sea for Mana Crypt + Random Business Spell), that list looks very strong.  I'll definitely put some testing into it.  The one thing that I don't really like about the Black splash is that it leaves you upon to Waste, which really hurts a deck that needs that 1 colored mana very badly indeed.

To LotusHead:

How the Combo works (assuming that you don't have Carrion Feeder, Benevolent Bodyguard, or both Body Snatchers in your hand):

- Cast Flash into Protean Hulk. Hulk trigger goes on the stack.

- Put Carrion Feeder, Benevolent Bodyguard, and Body Snatcher into play. This protects you from Swords to Plowshares.

- If you drew Karmic Guide or Kiki-Jiki, now you discard them to Body Snatcher. Otherwise you sacrifice Body Snatcher with the Come-Into-Play trigger on the stack, returning Protean Hulk.

- Sacrifice Protean Hulk to Carrion Feeder. Go get Karmic Guide.

- Karmic Guide returns Protean Hulk to play. Sacrifice the long-suffering Hulk to Carrion Feeder. Go get Kiki-Jiki

- Have Kiki-Jiki target Karmic Guide. With the ability on the stack, but before it resolves, sacrifice Kiki-Jiki to Carrion Feeder.

- Have the copy of Karmic Guide return Kiki-Jiki to play. Repeat the last two steps ad nauseum, until you have a billion 2/2 Hasty Flying Karmic Guides.

- Savor the fruits of victory.

What to do if...

You draw Karmic Guide: Discard Karmic Guide to Body Snatcher as step one. Return Karmic Guide to play instead of Protean Hulk with the Body Snatcher's leave-play ability. Sacrifice Protean Hulk to go get Kiki-Jiki and continue as normal.

You draw Kiki-Jiki: Discard Kiki-Jiki to Body Snatcher as step one. When you sac the Protean Hulk to go get Karmic Guide, just have her reanimate Kiki-Jiki instead of the Hulk. Continue as normal.

You draw both: After you return Protean Hulk to play with Body Snatcher, go fetch the second Body Snatcher, discard whichever one you haven't already, and then return Karmic Guide with the second Body-Snatcher's leave play ability. Return Kiki with Karmic Guide and continue as normal.

You draw both + a Body Snatcher: Are you really this unlucky? Dig for a fucking Brainstorm.

You draw Carrion Feeder: You can't discard it to Carrion Feeder, so you have to either cast it or Brainstorm it back. Luckily, you can still play it around removal by using the Hulk trigger to get Benevolent Bodyguard + Karmic Guide. When Hulk returns to play, just cast the Feeder during your main phase. Continue as normal. All it does is tack one black mana to the combo cost.

You draw Benevolent Bodyguard: If you don't Brainstorm it back, it's still really not that big a deal. You don't need it to win, just to duck potential removal. The point of Benevolent Bodyguard is to make creature removal low-relevance. If you draw Bodyguard or they have double removal through your counters/disruption, they can conceivably stop the combo. But the point is simply that StP is no longer something you could regularly lose to. Instead of being a reliable counter that you had to deal with, it's a very high gamble for them- unless they get two StPs, or you draw the Bodyguard, the card is useless.

-Courtesy of TheInfamousBearAssassin

[BreathWeapon]

I'm not certain I'd cut 2 lands, because the deck wants appr. 10 lands for its 6 mulligan, but Chain of Vapor and Hurkyl's Recall could be replaced with Echoing Truth and Mana Crypt.

I'd rather get Wastelanded and just draw into another land than lose to Trickbind or Extirpate, but if Wasteland is a problem, then just cut a couple of Underground Seas for a couple of Fetchlands and use the Becker manabase.

[Spacebalzz]

Just a note on Pact of Negation:
Pact is weak in this deck because it ups your zero casting spell count by 4, which means you get absolutle owned by Chalice 0.  This rings especially true in a metagame where Ichorid (and thus Chalice 0) will be abundant.  Misdirection is by far a superior choice.

Sidenote:
I love the new combo.  It reminds me of my test deck originally trying to bust Hulk in Vintage.  It was aggro-esque, using Karmic Guide/Carrion Feeder to repetitive recur Hulk and Guides to sac to Feeder and then drop the Flame-Kin for some 3/3 flying hasters and like 3 6/6 Feeders.  Anyway, I'm happy someone got clever and thought of a much more concise kill method.

-Matt

Edit:  BreathWeapon:  Do you think running one Blue/Green creature in your deck, such as Simic Guildmage so you can Summoner's Pact for a pitch card for MisD or FOW if the situation arises?

[ElyasMachera]

Just wondering, would sky hassur be an option also.  Sack hulk to go get guide and feeder, get hulk with guide and sac to go get kiki.  Copy guide to get hulk, sac and go get sky hussar.  Hussar untaps all your stuff make infinate hussar tokens with kiki and win.  I guess this isnt really better, but I already typed the post so here you go.

[Nehptis]

and I'm convinced it's the best deck in the format.

There's no point in the opponent even SBing in Pithing Needle, because the opponent is just going to to get Flash, Protean Hulk for Karmic Guide and Carrion Feeder, and the Karmic Guide  reanimates the Protean Hulk and that leaves 9 power on the board.

What's the plan vs. Game 2 and 3 Leyline of the Void, more bounce?  I've played against MWS testers a few times over the past week and I was playing Oath.  Game 1 could go either way depending on who won the coutner wars or if they had a broken opening hand.  Game 2 and 3 I just mulled to Leyline and won.

[BreathWeapon]

Mulliganing into it is just going to turn Flash into the control deck and force them to remove it first, and if the Mulliganing is too aggressive, then the opponent is not going to be able to stop Merchant Scroll for Echoing Truth or start his own game plan. I fear Chalice of the Void at 2 a lot more than I fear it, because it's not preventing me from casting actual cards.

@Spaceballz, Coiling Oracle is worth a chance.

[Grand Inquisitor]

This deck is certainly fast, and consistent by combo standards.  However, it suffers from a few critical shortcomings.

First, it's manabase is easy to challenge.  Even with adding three sources to the list posted above, the deck had difficulty facing down combinations of chalice, strip effect, sphere.  This would further be affected by stifle, gorilla shaman, or even (perhaps wisely, perhaps not) countering acceleration.  It seems the deck is much more effective at protecting the combo than it is at protecting its mana development and general setup.

Further, while no easy task for the opposing deck, most proactive disruption (tcrypt, leyline, meddling mage) would buy enough time so that a second piece wouldn't just be disruptive, but would end the game against Flash.  It's not that Flash doesn't have the tools to deal with these cards, however, the current design doesn't have a sufficiently robust card quality engine to match opposing draw engines before it's overwhelmed.  Also, it doesn't have the luxury of some ichorid decks with chalice and unmask to protect it from common MD hate.

Given this, it's hard to say if further energy in this direction would improve the builds to an acceptable level, or if the rector path is simply more resilient.

[Zherbus]

Everything Grand Inquisitor said.

Really, I think GI said it best. And probably better than I will here:

The Flash deck needs to be careful, because it's not the absolute monster it is in Legacy. We've lived a long time in the shadow of turn 1 kills in Vintage, and this one (to me) is just another one. The difference this time is that it's reliably FAST, but it's not reliably consistant due to the card space the combo pieces take, where as decks like Tendrils and Rector run an individually good structure (sans Flash with no Rector in hand). I think that Vintage looks at it and says "Nice trick, but what do you do when you can't Just Win (TM)?" Tendrils and Gifts always had an answer to it, and I think Flash-Rector does as well... at least more-so than it's conventional cousin. This deck, for all of it's consistant speed just cannot answer this reliably.

The other problem traditional Flash has to deal with in Vintage is that combo already elicited a bunch of hate cards being played. In Legacy, the tone was set that you can't just worry about combo; you need aggro-tools as well. Vintage just has a steeper level of entry than Legacy does, because everything is much more narrow. Like I said, we already have reliable and fast combo decks, and a format built around it. Flash's intro to Legacy basically invalidated a ton of decks. I think that makes all the world of difference.

[BreathWeapon]

This deck is certainly fast, and consistent by combo standards.  However, it suffers from a few critical shortcomings.

First, it's manabase is easy to challenge.  Even with adding three sources to the list posted above, the deck had difficulty facing down combinations of chalice, strip effect, sphere.  This would further be affected by stifle, gorilla shaman, or even (perhaps wisely, perhaps not) countering acceleration.  It seems the deck is much more effective at protecting the combo than it is at protecting its mana development and general setup.

Further, while no easy task for the opposing deck, most proactive disruption (tcrypt, leyline, meddling mage) would buy enough time so that a second piece wouldn't just be disruptive, but would end the game against Flash.  It's not that Flash doesn't have the tools to deal with these cards, however, the current design doesn't have a sufficiently robust card quality engine to match opposing draw engines before it's overwhelmed.  Also, it doesn't have the luxury of some ichorid decks with chalice and unmask to protect it from common MD hate.

Given this, it's hard to say if further energy in this direction would improve the builds to an acceptable level, or if the rector path is simply more resilient.

I disagree,

Ichorid has Unmask and Chalice of the Void (and one Tormod's Crypt in Control Slaver isn't enough to argue for Chalice of the Void), while Flash has Force of Will, Duress and Merchant Scroll for Force of Will and Merchant Scroll for bounce. Pithing Needle is pointless against Flash because it turns its win condition from "win now" into "win two turns later" and Tormod's Crypt can be circumvented with MDing or SBing in an alternate win condition (1 Hearth Sliver, 4 Virulent Sliver etc).

Bazaar of Baghdad, Merchant Scroll for Ancestral Recall, Gifts Ungiven and Dark Confidant are the three card quality/advantage engines in this format, and of those three, I'm using Merchant Scroll for Ancestral Recall with Misdirection and Duress to force it thru' and prevent other Merchant Scrolls for Ancestral Recalls from doing the same.

Flash gets to use Massacre against Fish, and believe me, the name of the card reflects its results, and Flash gets to use Chain of Vapor instead of Misdirection against Stax, so the second lock piece, whatever it is, isn't game ending and the first lock piece isn't even troublesome.

Knowing how to SB with Flash games 2 and 3 is the difference between 1-2 and 2-0, Massacre, Hurkyl's Recall and Chain of Vapor and Leyline of the Void dramatically, and I mean dramatically affect your win percentage.

Fish can be problematic because it has permission, disruption and prison on three different permanents, but Stax just has Enchantments, Artifacts and a vulnerability to the coin flip, so it's really your bitch.

@Zherbus, I don't think that's relevant, because the entire 1.5 metagame is revolving around Flash at this point.

[Zherbus]

@Zherbus, I don't think that's relevant, because the entire 1.5 metagame is revolving around Flash at this point.

I know, I said that.

I also just said there are fundimental weaknesses with Flash in Vintage that one should consider before making assertions of whether it's the best deck in the format or not. I made a point of mentioning Legacy so people don't directly equate it's impact there to it's impact here, which you have by saying "and I'm convinced it's the best deck in the format."

Despite what you've written above, I still think most of GI's points are valid. It's easy to point out what cards are in your deck as a proper rebuttal, but I don't think it gets the subject off the hook. For example: running Stifle in a deck doesn't own Storm-based combo, there's way more to it. So to say things like:

Flash gets to use Massacre against Fish, and believe me, the name of the card reflects its results

and

Flash gets to use Chain of Vapor instead of Misdirection against Stax, so the second lock piece, whatever it is, isn't game ending and the first lock piece isn't even troublesome.

Really that just tell how you deal with those matches, not that they in fact do. If it were that simple, deck's would have a shelf-life of a single tournament before people would just do things like "Oh, I'll run Swords to Plowshares against Tog"... and we know how that panned out.

So WHY is Massacre so good against Fish if the player isn't over-extending by riding a solo Dark Confidant? What if the player is drawing more disruption than you (which by the way, they typically run more than you). Why is the first Stax piece not troublesome? What about opposing Leylines? Do you have enough bounce for everything you have to worry about?

And what about the limits on hand-size not boding well for your Force of Will? How often will you be sitting with the combo in hand, the mana to use it, and a Force of Will and a blue card. That's what it takes to be Duress proof when not going first, and it's 6/7 cards. Do you Force it, pitching the other spell, then attempt to go off in hope he doesn't have a Force too? Do you let the Duress resolve? How about the game getting stunted and going to a longer game, while you start drawing Combo pieces (not Flash/Hulk, but the stuff Hulk finds)? Is Brainstorm going to get rid of it consistantly?

And keep in mind, I'm not necessarily telling you that I disagree with that analysis. We're all testing stuff here and when someone speaks so definitively, our results and intuition provoke questions. Those questions and answers are the foundation of these discussions. It's just that we're TheManaDrain and we go more in depth and discuss things to come to a proper conclusion. Part of that process is testing and tournament results, but a big part is explaining things better. I cannot help but feel you're being dismissive towards posts that are at least attemping to articulate a point.

The way I see it, is you can either tackle these posts more in depth and maybe make some of us see something we aren't... or you can just play the "wait-and-see" game, and let results speak for themselves. The fact is that there are a whole TON of "yeah, but..." going on here. Don't you think we can do better?

[nataz]

It's not that Flash doesn't have the tools to deal with these cards, however, the current design doesn't have a sufficiently robust card quality engine to match opposing draw engines before it's overwhelmed.  Also, it doesn't have the luxury of some ichorid decks with chalice and unmask to protect it from common MD hate.

I think the card quality aspects are fine, its the raw draw that can be a problem.

Look at what the deck runs to find the 2 card combo:

4x Scroll
1x Recall
1x Demonic
1x Imp Seal
1x Vamp
1x Mystical
4x Brainstorm
4x Summoners Pact

The real issue is that almost all of these cards are 1-for-1 with an additional investment of mana.

Both brainstorm and scroll->recall break the mold, but also have issues in that BS needs a shuffle to clear cards off the top, and Scroll + Recall casts 2 cards and 3 mana.

I think that all of the Hulk decks tend to be very good at finding the combo quickly, but where they lag is inevitability. 8 Pitch counters can only do so much when you don't have enough mana to both tutor for flash and then tutor for backup, which means you have to hope to have one in your opening hand. If your first attempt at wining is countered, then it tends to be a hard recovery.

Unlike long where you can just throw Bomb after Bomb out the window baiting for counters, Hulk Flash is forced to go Scroll -> Bomb, which then meets the counter losing you two cards. There is no Bargain, Will, Desire, etc., to bait with, nor is there excess mana from rituals floating around after something gets counterd.

The positive of course is in the card selection. By runing a tutor based engine, you can get what you want, whenever you want, and pretty much always cast it.

I've been toying with fairly terrible stuff such as serum visions, but I'm seriously considering adding in Draw 7's, merging even more with pitch long.

[Implacable]

You know, what you all are talking about raises an interesting point.  A lot of people seem to be treating this like it is a traditional combo deck, in that it just keeps throwing bombs at the other guy until he dies.  To the contrary, the purpose of Hulk Flash is not to do that; it is to resolve the very 1st Flash with a massive quantity of free counter/discard backup.  At least, that's how I see it.  Therefore, the deck doesn't need inevitability; it gets that by playing with a two-mana, two-card combo that reads 'You Win The Game'.  What the deck needs (and has, with FS) are tutors in plenty to find its combo.  Don't play for the long game by scrolling for Ancestral; Scroll for Flash and just win.

[Moxlotus]

Hulk Flash is the new Belcher.  95% of the time it will either win the game or lose the game in the first 2 turns.

[Zherbus]

I mostly agree with your comparison, MoxLotus. I do think this is a step up from Belcher though.

[Purple Hat]

I mostly agree with your comparison, MoxLotus. I do think this is a step up from Belcher though.

new belcher or old belcher?  the newer belcher decks seem more resilient than this to me with empty the warrens and reb/ssg.  That said I think another point that's been missing is that while you're playing 8 of your combo cards it's not really true, summoner's pact can't really be counted on as 4 coppies of hulk because holding pact may cut off sections of the decision tree that holding hulk wouldn't, especially post board when you could theoretically flash hulk into play to go get an answer for something.  also this kill fails to win "in response to" which seems flawed to me given the use of pact when that option is easily available through cards like goblin sharpshooter.  wining (or getting bargain) in response to an opponent's play seems like the best thing flash decks have going for them in comparison to decks like belcher or long and requiring the attack step seems to hurt that plan.

[Implacable]

The currently accepted list of Hulk Flash runs a 12-card combo:

4 Flash
4 Protean Hulk
1 Body Snatcher
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Karmic Guide
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

It then runs the following:

4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Vampiric Tutor

15-18 Mana Sources is the normal amount to include, counting the sole ESG fetchable through Pact.

Now, my point is this.  This list allows for the use of not the four disruption cards the Belcher has, nor the 4 that GrimLong has, nor the 7 that PitchLong runs; this list allows for the use of 12-15 protection cards.  12-15.  That is as many as Meandeck Gifts.  That is an absurd amount of protection, and it is not protecting some 4cc bomb; it is protecting a 2-card, 2-mana combo.  Moreover, all of that protection costs 1 or less mana.  This is not Belcher, nor is it Long, nor is it Meandeck Tendrils (although it may goldfish similarly).  This is much, much better than any of those decks.  It combines the broken Scrolling of Gifts with the speed of Belcher with the free protection of PitchLong and then some.  The brilliance of Meandeck Gifts was that Merchant Scroll became Demonic Tutor, getting protection, cards, or the kill at your whim.  This is that deck on crack.

Hulk Flash - It Gives You Wings!

[Purple Hat]

dude, there's no way this deck goldfishes similarly to meandeck tendrils.  with 15-18 mana sources you likely have 1-2 in your opening hand, half the time you're gonna have to scroll for flash on either turn 1 or 2 which will prevent you from flashing til turn 2 or 3.  meandeck tendrils when played properly has a turn one goldfish over 60% (steve claimed 80 I think in the repeal article but I find that claim a bit over stated).  even though it's not really tournament viable, the deck does consistently make a serious effort to win the game on turn 1 in almost every game.  this deck clearly doesn't do that.  making claims that it does is just going to prevent people from taking you seriously.

[BreathWeapon]

@Zherbus

I agree and I disagree; the problem is that a lot of people just dismissed Protean Hulk and Summoner's Pact with out justification instead of judging Protean Hulk and Summoner's Pact on its actual merits, so until those people stopped presuming and started PTing, I wasn't interested in arguing with them in greater detail.

Unmask often gets Misdirected, but as far as Duress is concerned, I think we are redundant enough to Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm or top deck tutor for whatever was discarded or we can Duress the Duress or Brainstorm in response.

As far as Massacre, prison pieces and drawing kill pieces go: Massacre is just a 0cc Counter Spell for Meddling Mage, Samurai of the Pale Curtain or True Believer (if it applies), and if Massacre turns into a 0cc Wrath of God, it's just a bonus. The first prison piece isn't a problem games 2 and 3, because first of all, Gifts and Slaver aren't going to have a second prison piece, and because second of all, against Stax,  Flash can SB in 50% of its SB with out slowing its speed, and 4 Hurkyl's Recall and 4 Chain of Vapor instead of 4 Misdirection and 4 Duress just hands you the game against them (4 Force of Will, 4 Merchant Scroll and 9 bounce spells is just ridiculous). Against Fish, it is problem, because Fish has three different prison pieces, artifacts, creatures and enchantments, but it's all about SBing and out racing them to the first or second prison piece (you could add Ichorid to this argument, but 2 prison pieces is rare for them, and they have to deal with your prison piece or your prison piece equalizes one of their prison pieces etc.) Drawing kill pieces isn't a concern, because Carrion Feeder can be hard cast and Body Snatcher can discard Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker or Karmic Guide, and you have Brainstorm.

One of the important things to remember about this thing is that it wins on turn one almost 1/4 of the time with Force of Will or Misdirection behind it, and that's a lot for other people to be able to deal with even in Vintage.

[Kieranwolf]

Just looking at the list, it seems like you could play Hulk in a way similar to WGDX, only about five+ times faster. Difference is that with Pacts you can win a lot earlier without having to worry about more than a turn 0 Leyline or Force of Will.

Seems like most of the time Chalice @ 1 and Leyline would be a big problem if they showed up together. Echoing Truth in the main would fix that, though.

I don't want to sound like a doubter, but is there a secondary game plan if you run into someone successfully protecting their Leyline or if Flash gets Extirpated? I mean other than beating down with overcosted critters cast by Lotus and moxes.

[BreathWeapon]

Just looking at the list, it seems like you could play Hulk in a way similar to WGDX, only about five+ times faster. Difference is that with Pacts you can win a lot earlier without having to worry about more than a turn 0 Leyline or Force of Will.

Seems like most of the time Chalice @ 1 and Leyline would be a big problem if they showed up together. Echoing Truth in the main would fix that, though.

I don't want to sound like a doubter, but is there a secondary game plan if you run into someone successfully protecting their Leyline or if Flash gets Extirpated? I mean other than beating down with overcosted critters cast by Lotus and moxes.

Bazaar of Baghdad is an option, but I wanted to be as resistant to Pithing Needle as possible, considering I was drawing all of the cards targeted against Ichorid as it was.

Chalice at one is a lot less troublesome than Chalice at two, and that's the reason I use Chain of Vapor over Echoing Truth, because if Stax resolves Chalice at two, then Brainstorm, Mystical Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal can tutor for your removal spell.

As far as a Plan B goes, the best I can come up with is Virulent Sliver and poison counters in the 1 Hearth Sliver, 4 Virulent Sliver version or assembling the kill condition with Cephalid Illusionist and a Nomad En-Kor in the Dread Return and Sutured Ghoul version, but both of those options are just awful, so I'd just man up and bring in the SB.

[Kieranwolf]

Bazaar of Baghdad is an option, but I wanted to be as resistant to Pithing Needle as possible, considering I was drawing all of the cards targeted against Ichorid as it was.

I mostly meant the play style of WGDX, but now I'm thinking that it was the wrong idea. This deck only needs perhaps a turn or two to sculpt the hand it needs before going off, assuming it doesn't draw flash, mox, Hulk/SP, PoN etc. in the opening hand.

Chalice at one is a lot less troublesome than Chalice at two, and that's the reason I use Chain of Vapor over Echoing Truth, because if Stax resolves Chalice at two, then Brainstorm, Mystical Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal can tutor for your removal spell.

I meant Chalice @ 1 with Leyline of the Void in play. Obviously, just one Chalice and nothing else isn't going to matter much. It'll buy a turn or so at most. However, Leyline plus Chalice @ 1 would be deadly to you if you had no Echoing Truth to Scroll for. Well, and if you didn't have an extra land and a mox so you could send the CoV copy over. Chances are, you'd have to deal with Leyline, first turn hand disruption, and possibly Chalices all in the same match.

A similar problem would be Leyline with Meddling Mage naming CoV. Having two different bounce spells could save you some headaches if you get paired against someone who's done some scouting on your deck. I'd go 1:1, just to be techy and such.

As far as a Plan B goes, the best I can come up with is Virulent Sliver and poison counters in the 1 Hearth Sliver, 4 Virulent Sliver version or assembling the kill condition with Cephalid Illusionist and a Nomad En-Kor in the Dread Return and Sutured Ghoul version, but both of those options are just awful, so I'd just man up and bring in the SB.

Ouch. Well, creature beats with a focus on scrolling/tutoring for protection cards to keep you and them alive and swinging is better than just regular creature beats. I was thinking that a mainboard plan could be helpful in a metagame where people are ready for the Hulk matchup. If one exists that doesn't mess with the main combo and engine much, it'd be worth it.

SBing in an answer might not be the best thing to do. All you'd have to do is prevent your opponent from defending their Leyline effectively. I suppose that you could go for something like...

-4 PoN
-1 SP

+5 Janky Sliver win (ex dee)

No. Actually, I don't think you would, unless I'm missing something and this actually looks good. Duress would work, but that would require duals, right?

Seems better just to go balls to the wall and PoN everything, mostly hoping that your opponent doesn't draw the nuts and assassinate your combo with infi backup.

[BreathWeapon]

The best defense is a good offense, because the opponent can't turn 0 Leyline of the Void, turn 1 Unmask/Duress and turn 1 Chalice of the Void you consistently, and even turn 0 Leyline of the Void and turn 1 Unmask/Duress or turn 1 Chalice of the Void requires some mulliganing on their part. If Stax, Fish and Ichorid do become a problem for you, then I'd consider removing the Misdirections and replacing them with Dazes, because Daze isn't dead against Stax and it's a hard counter against Fish and Ichorid for the most part.

I imagine cutting the second bounce spell was a bad idea, but I needed to fit in Mana Crypt; maybe I should just cut one of the Misdirections or the Mystical Tutor instead?