[Post-FS Deck Discussion] Hulk Flash, Hulk Smash

[o]

I may actually pursue the instant-speed kill.  I've been pining for it ever since I re-added Pacts to the deck (I was playing Pactless for a while).  Winning on your upkeep is sum good.

I found that instant-speed is not worth it to accomodate the Pacts alone, but the incremental advantages of having an instant speed kill (initiating counterwars at EOT, waiting for opponents to tap out, and of course the Pact advantage) is probably enough to make it worth it. However I am dissatisfied with the Kami/Cyclops package as that is two extra cards to the kill. This will lead to a lot more dead draws. I'd be satisfied with a single extra add-on creature - anybody got any ideas on another creature that can kill the opponent instnatly with an arbitrarily large army with an arbitrarily large leader?

You need a 6cc or less creature based Goblin Bombardment or a 6cc or less CIP/LP creature that takes advantage of the number of creatures on the board to win the game at instant speed, and I'm afraid that neither of those creatures exist at the moment.

On a side note, Chrome Mox is a must in the manabase.

Why can't you just use Bloodshot Cyclops?  You already have an arbitrarily large Carrion Feeder and a Kiki-Jiki which can give the Cyclops haste.

[Purple Hat]

goblin sharp shooter.  you can sac your army to the feeder to keep untapping him.  if you can make a large number of kiki's then you could also use mogg fanatic and just keep copying him with kiki

[diopter]

goblin sharp shooter.  you can sac your army to the feeder to keep untapping him.  if you can make a large number of kiki's then you could also use mogg fanatic and just keep copying him with kiki

Sharpshooter doesn't have Haste.
I don't think this endevaor will be worth it if it takes more than 1 card.

I may actually pursue the instant-speed kill.  I've been pining for it ever since I re-added Pacts to the deck (I was playing Pactless for a while).  Winning on your upkeep is sum good.

I found that instant-speed is not worth it to accomodate the Pacts alone, but the incremental advantages of having an instant speed kill (initiating counterwars at EOT, waiting for opponents to tap out, and of course the Pact advantage) is probably enough to make it worth it. However I am dissatisfied with the Kami/Cyclops package as that is two extra cards to the kill. This will lead to a lot more dead draws. I'd be satisfied with a single extra add-on creature - anybody got any ideas on another creature that can kill the opponent instnatly with an arbitrarily large army with an arbitrarily large leader?

You need a 6cc or less creature based Goblin Bombardment or a 6cc or less CIP/LP creature that takes advantage of the number of creatures on the board to win the game at instant speed, and I'm afraid that neither of those creatures exist at the moment.

On a side note, Chrome Mox is a must in the manabase.

Why can't you just use Bloodshot Cyclops?  You already have an arbitrarily large Carrion Feeder and a Kiki-Jiki which can give the Cyclops haste.

By the time Cyclops comes into play Kiki will be tapped. That's why Teardrop Kami is needed.

[BreathWeapon]

Goblin Warchief and Goblin Sharpshooter off Protean Hulk is just as good as Teardrop Kami and Bloodshot Cyclops tho'.

[diopter]

Goblin Warchief and Goblin Sharpshooter off Protean Hulk is just as good as Teardrop Kami and Bloodshot Cyclops tho'.

Both are two-card add-ons. I don't think the instant-speed advantage is worth the loss of two cards- especially since the two cards to be cut are probably going to have to be extra counters (read: Pacts) which nullifies a large part of the instant-speed advnatage in the first place.

[Purple Hat]

Goblin Warchief and Goblin Sharpshooter off Protean Hulk is just as good as Teardrop Kami and Bloodshot Cyclops tho'.

Both are two-card add-ons. I don't think the instant-speed advantage is worth the loss of two cards- especially since the two cards to be cut are probably going to have to be extra counters (read: Pacts) which nullifies a large part of the instant-speed advnatage in the first place.

this doesn't make much sense.  isn't the main advantage of instant speed wins that you need less protection and are subject to less hate?

[diopter]

Goblin Warchief and Goblin Sharpshooter off Protean Hulk is just as good as Teardrop Kami and Bloodshot Cyclops tho'.

Both are two-card add-ons. I don't think the instant-speed advantage is worth the loss of two cards- especially since the two cards to be cut are probably going to have to be extra counters (read: Pacts) which nullifies a large part of the instant-speed advnatage in the first place.

this doesn't make much sense.  isn't the main advantage of instant speed wins that you need less protection and are subject to less hate?

The times I've wished for instant speed kill:
- I've had a tutor that I want to protect with Pact of Negation (MisD doesn't always serve here because a blue card is not always available)
- I've set up for the kill next turn but need to counter an opponent's spell on his or her mainphase (MisD would definitely not serve here)
- I need to use a Summoner's Pact to fetch ESG, which will give me enough mana to tutor this turn and win next turn - but obviously I can't do that without an instant speed kill.
- The only way I can win the counterwar is to wait until my opponent tries something, say on my endstep, and then kill him.

It is not necessarily about needing less protection or facing less hate, it is more about having more lines of play open that would make Flash hands lethal faster, sooner, more often, etc.

[SiegeX]

In my endeavor to find a more optimized and/or instant speed kill, Ive come across these interesting engines.

The following all start with Flash -> Hulk -> CF + BS + BB -> Sac BS to return Hulk -> Sac Hulk and get...

1) Saffi Eriksdotter + Loyal Retainers + Soul Warden:  Creates a loop to gain infi life. 

2) Saffi Eriksdotter + Crypt Champion:  Same as above but would require you to bring out the Soul Warden instead of the Benevolent Bodyguard on the previous hulk trigger which can be risky.  On the plus side you can sac the Crypt Champion to the CF to make him arbitrarily huge.

3) If you add a Volrath's Shapeshifter (VSS) to #2, you can do some pretty crazy stuff at the expense of one more dead card and therefore potential for more useless hands.  For example..

Grab VSS + some 3CC dork (optional) --> Sac VSS(hulk) --> grab Saffi + Crypt Champion --> use Champions CIP ability to bring back VSS --> sac VSS(Hulk).  At this point you now have the loop engine online and a full Hulk trigger to use at your leisure.

I'm not saying any of these are better than or even on par with the kiki/guide kill but it's my hope to get those creative juices flowing to perhaps find that optimal instant-speed kill

[BreathWeapon]

Goblin Warchief and Goblin Sharpshooter off Protean Hulk is just as good as Teardrop Kami and Bloodshot Cyclops tho'.

Both are two-card add-ons. I don't think the instant-speed advantage is worth the loss of two cards- especially since the two cards to be cut are probably going to have to be extra counters (read: Pacts) which nullifies a large part of the instant-speed advnatage in the first place.

this doesn't make much sense.  isn't the main advantage of instant speed wins that you need less protection and are subject to less hate?

The times I've wished for instant speed kill:
- I've had a tutor that I want to protect with Pact of Negation (MisD doesn't always serve here because a blue card is not always available)
- I've set up for the kill next turn but need to counter an opponent's spell on his or her mainphase (MisD would definitely not serve here)
- I need to use a Summoner's Pact to fetch ESG, which will give me enough mana to tutor this turn and win next turn - but obviously I can't do that without an instant speed kill.
- The only way I can win the counterwar is to wait until my opponent tries something, say on my endstep, and then kill him.

It is not necessarily about needing less protection or facing less hate, it is more about having more lines of play open that would make Flash hands lethal faster, sooner, more often, etc.

You can cut Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal in order to go to an all Island mana base and then cut the second bounce spell to use the Disciple of the Vault kill condition with 4 Disciple of the Vault and 5 X creatures for the instant speed win. Disregarding Pithing Needle and Tormod's Crypt is probably worth losing your black tutors (and you strengthen your mana base against Wasteland).

At best, Saffi Eriksdotter and Crypt Champion can get Caller of the Claw or something to give Carrion Feeder Haste, but that just seems worse than Karmic/Kiki.

[MuzzonoAmi]

The instant speed kill actually only adds one card, because you can now combo in response to StP, and therefore can cut Benevolent Bodyguard. He's only useful against 2-3 decks, StP is counterable, and BB is otherwise dead.  Cutting him for Teardrop Kami and then something else for Cyclops is +1 card, but gives you a lot of additional flexibility.

[Implacable]

Problem is, I don't know if anyone's running Bodyguard right now.  I cut it weeks ago, and it's gone in and out of my board.

[SiegeX]

The instant speed kill actually only adds one card, because you can now combo in response to StP, and therefore can cut Benevolent Bodyguard.

Isn't the Carrion Feeder also a point of failure for this combo? If I STP the Carrion Feeder in response to BodySnatcher's Goes to the GY trigger then you can't sac the hulk to go grab the Karmic Guide.  Similarly, if you happened to not need BodySnatcher because you didn't draw any of the combo pieces then I could STP the Carrion Feeder in response to Karmic Guide's CIP ability again leaving the Hulk unable to sac.

[someone_unimportan]

But you are also staring down a 6/6 Creature. Because you are playing StP, you are probably playing Fish, and if you're staring down a 6/6, you're in trouble.

[BreathWeapon]

The instant speed kill actually only adds one card, because you can now combo in response to StP, and therefore can cut Benevolent Bodyguard. He's only useful against 2-3 decks, StP is counterable, and BB is otherwise dead.  Cutting him for Teardrop Kami and then something else for Cyclops is +1 card, but gives you a lot of additional flexibility.

Care to clue me in here? Because I don't see how Carrion Feeder can combo out before Karmic Guide's trigger goes on the stack and the opponent gets to respond with Swords to Plowshares on Carrion Feeder. You need the Benevolent Bodyguard just to be able to stop Merchant Scroll for Chain of Vapor in Gifts or the Echoing Truths in Fish etc.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Oops. Missed that part. Regardless - this is what you have counters for. There's no reason not to cut something to win at instant speed. The ability to use Pact more aggressively is essential, IMO, unless you're going the Rector route. If not, this deck is going to go the way of Ichorid, and quickly, because it's vulnerable to the same major, pervasive hate.

[Implacable]

People keep making the Ichorid comparison.  That is like comparing Gifts or PitchLong to Ichorid, simply because they have trouble with graveyard hate too.  The difference is that those two decks, and Flash as well, have access to tutors in order to find their answers to hate.  This comparison is fundamentally inaccurate, and shouldn't be used.

[Grand Inquisitor]

People keep making the Ichorid comparison.  That is like comparing Gifts or PitchLong to Ichorid, simply because they have trouble with graveyard hate too.  The difference is that those two decks, and Flash as well, have access to tutors in order to find their answers to hate.  This comparison is fundamentally inaccurate, and shouldn't be used.

Don't confuse the issue here: win conditions, not engines.  You're right, that Flash has much greater flexibility in dealing with hate; this makes it similar to Gifts or Pitchlong.  However, Flash still needs to remove grave hate before winning, which is distinctly different from Gifts or PLong, which can both ramp a lethal tendrils (or EtW, tinker, etc) without YWill.

I'm not saying that makes ichorid an apt comparison, but it does nullify your rebuttal.

[Implacable]

People keep making the Ichorid comparison.  That is like comparing Gifts or PitchLong to Ichorid, simply because they have trouble with graveyard hate too.  The difference is that those two decks, and Flash as well, have access to tutors in order to find their answers to hate.  This comparison is fundamentally inaccurate, and shouldn't be used.

Don't confuse the issue here: win conditions, not engines.  You're right, that Flash has much greater flexibility in dealing with hate; this makes it similar to Gifts or Pitchlong.  However, Flash still needs to remove grave hate before winning, which is distinctly different from Gifts or PLong, which can both ramp a lethal tendrils (or EtW, tinker, etc) without YWill.

I'm not saying that makes ichorid an apt comparison, but it does nullify your rebuttal.

I just want to point out that, while it is true that PitchLong can go off sans graveyard, it is incredibly difficult for Gifts to do so.  However, the point is moot because my point of contention wasn't that they needed the yard; I said that they have tutors to find answers to hate that would slow them down, which is true and fair.  If I had tried to stretch my initial point  by saying that they needed their yards to win, then your objection would be valid, but the only two comparisons that I drew were that all three decks are vulnerable to yard hate and that they all have tutors to answer it (both true).  The specificity of that point is clear.

[BreathWeapon]

Oops. Missed that part. Regardless - this is what you have counters for. There's no reason not to cut something to win at instant speed. The ability to use Pact more aggressively is essential, IMO, unless you're going the Rector route. If not, this deck is going to go the way of Ichorid, and quickly, because it's vulnerable to the same major, pervasive hate.

I agree and I disagree, I agree that the Kiki-Jiki kill should include the Teardrop Kami and the Bloodshot Cyclops, but sacrificing a free counter, which is what Benevolent Bodyguard is against bounce, isn't the card to cut for it. I think starting with the second bounce spell or the black cards is where I'd look to find room.

[PhilipJFry]

What kind of disruption package are people combining with their Vintage Hulk Flash builds?  Are you more likely to use a reactive free spell based package (the oft mentioned "8 free counters")?  Are you mixing in some proactive disruption, like Duress, Cabal Therapy, and the like.  How many disruption spells are you using?

I can see running as few as 8 disruption spells, or as many as 16, depending upon how one puts together the rest of the build and what the motivations are.  Are you aiming to win as soon as possible, or to disrupt your opponent early and win unmolested a few turns later.

I am curious to hear the appraoch others are taking with their builds.

[Implacable]

What kind of disruption package are people combining with their Vintage Hulk Flash builds?  Are you more likely to use a reactive free spell based package (the oft mentioned "8 free counters")?  Are you mixing in some proactive disruption, like Duress, Cabal Therapy, and the like.  How many disruption spells are you using?

I can see running as few as 8 disruption spells, or as many as 16, depending upon how one puts together the rest of the build and what the motivations are.  Are you aiming to win as soon as possible, or to disrupt your opponent early and win unmolested a few turns later.

I am curious to hear the appraoch [sic] others are taking with their builds.

I am running the following:

4 Force of Will
4 Pact of Negation
2 Misdirection
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth

This disruption package allows me to effectively combat Drain decks while also bouncing relevant disruption.  I could be more eloquent, but that's it in a nutshell.

[Odd mutation]

Hi,

I've been testing Andy Probasco's list and I have two questions:

1)  Consider the following situation: my opponent casts a wheel of fortune or resolves a Memory Jar and Carrion Feeder and/or Karmic Guide end up in the graveyard. Is there still a way to combo out?

I feel like there is a way but I just cannot figure it out... Or maybe it cannot be done?

If not, what should be the better gameplan from that point (we're playing against combo)? I tried to get there with a reanimated Protean Hulk but that just takes too long.

2) I didn't play with the Street Wraiths. Instead I put 1 Chrome Mox, 1 Imperial Seal, 1 Swamp and 1 Duress main. I also swapped one of the two Chain of vapors for 1 Echoing Truth. I was very happy with the extra mana and the Duress was super against the combo deck (a special Pitch Long version). Actualy I would like to play more Duresses... What do you think of these changes?

Thanks,

Robrecht.

[erictehfatz0r]

I believe 2 Chain of Vapors to be the correct call. One of the main reasons is that Against EtW, you should fly over them regardless with your tokens, and any tutors spent removing goblin tokens can just be spent getting the other piece of your puzzle and winning over the top of them.

The other reason is that Chalice wants to be set at two against this deck. Subbing a 1cc removal to Chalice@2 for a 2cc removal for Chalice@2 is not optimal.

This is just what I think.

[rammgorr]

hi,
ive tested hulk on mws. and it's terrible staring at 2 leylines in game 2 and a resolved chalice 0!
thats happened very often. so, i decide to play 2 chains of vapor and 1 echoing truth.
i also packed 2 truth in my side.

maybe tranquility is an interesting option, with a high amount of esg in your mainboard.

[Sam101]

Where do we go to see the changes in the restricted/banned list?

That will be available tomorrow, correct?

Sam

[Implacable]

Generally speaking, Echoing Truth as a 1-of has been fine.  The reason why no more than 1 should be run is that Echoing Truth is no good against the bane of Flash: Chalice@2.  I run 1 ET and 1 Chain main, with 2 Chains in the 'board, and that's been fine for me so far. 

[Aardshark]

Generally speaking, Echoing Truth as a 1-of has been fine.  The reason why no more than 1 should be run is that Echoing Truth is no good against the bane of Flash: Chalice@2.  I run 1 ET and 1 Chain main, with 2 Chains in the 'board, and that's been fine for me so far. 

I ran a similar configuration at Eudemonia last Sunday (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33271.0): 1 CoV main and an e-truth + CoV (+ Rebuild) side.  However, after facing and lacking outs to leyline + needle on multiple occasions in the tournament, I decided to try rushing river.

The bounce package i'm currently testing is:

Maindeck: 1 CoV, 1 rushing river
Sideboard: 1 CoV, 1 e-truth, 1 rebuild
(dopping a daze for the extra bounce)

Rushing river should maybe be switched for the CoV in the side, since I'm most likely to fact multiple lock pieces post sideboard, but I prefer a diversity of answers maindeck and don't want e-truth unless I know my opponents won't play chalice @ 2.

[BreathWeapon]

I'd consider MDing or SBing in the Sliver kill if Pithing Needle and Tormod's Crypt are popular, next to the Disciple kill, the Sliver kill is the most difficult to disrupt, and it requires a total of 5 slots.

This is the updated list I'm using,

4 Force of Will
4 Misdirection
4 Pact of Negation
1 Chain of Vapor

4 Protean Hulk
4 Flash

1 Hearth Sliver
4 Virulent Sliver

4 Summoner's Pact
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor

4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Intet, The Dreamer or Vorosh, the Hunter

1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
5 Moxen
11 Island

You just maul all non-Ichorid decks game one and then fight over Leyline of the Void game two. The Dragon slot is awesome, it either lets you discard your Summoner's Pact to Force of Will or Misdirection or it lets you Protean Hulk + Flash for an alternate win condition.

[rammgorr]

hi,
how do you get that intet/vorosh in? its not quite easy to have 3 differnet colors with only basic islands.
maybe simic sky swallower fits better with / 1 tropical island or more esg.
if you play black, maybe phyrexian negator is a good sideboard plan.

[BreathWeapon]

hi,
how do you get that intet/vorosh in? its not quite easy to have 3 differnet colors with only basic islands.
maybe simic sky swallower fits better with / 1 tropical island or more esg.
if you play black, maybe phyrexian negator is a good sideboard plan.

You cast Flash on Protean Hulk and then search for the 6cc Dragon and put it on the board in positions where the combo can't win, like Pithing Needle and Tormod's Crypt against the Kiki/Karmic kill or too many creatures against the Sliver kill.