[Post-FS Deck Discussion] Hulk Flash, Hulk Smash

[demonic effect]

Really when I think about Split Second cards I think about Extirpate and to a much lesser extent Trickbind - these are the only two cards that are actually flexible and aggresively costed enough for consideration. But neither of these cards is great in the main deck because they are just not flexible enough - for instance Trickbind isn't worth the cardboard it's printed on against Stax, Slaver, or Fish, and Extirpate barely affects Ritual combo or Stax or Fish.

Post-board however, Extirpate can be a surgical strike against several decks (Flash, Ichorid, Dragon) if - and this is the key - if they aren't prepared for it. I still find Trickbind marginal, although it's a moot point because the same strategy that answers Extirpate also answers Trickbind.

I think that having something like Duress, which is good against Split Second but also just good in general, is a good tool in the post-board games where you have a statistically significant probability of encountering Split Second. Having it in the maindeck though is paying unnecessary mana to answer a threat that don't exist.

Flash.dec is hurt a lot by extirpate no question about it...  but ichorid isn't worried because it has so many cards that need to be removed before it is scarred etc... As for dragon, the deck for the most part is dead.  It can't compete against ichorid and is hit by the same hate...  In reality, extirpate is a neat parlor trick that every now and again destroys a deck but there are too few circumstances that this arises for the card to be includd even as a SB card to justify the inclusion...  Instead, decks tend to favor other cards like LLvoid, crypt, etc...  Unless Flash.dec becomes a true powerhouse worthy of its own slots extirpate won't see a drastic increase in numbers as people will just add in LLvoid instead...

In terms of duress, it should either be included main or not at all in my opinion...  Although, considering how hard it seems to cut cards from the deck, maybe duress as a SB option will be justified since you just swap out useless coutners for it but who knows... I'm not really sure what the SB should be, i just feel that if it truly is "generally" good and can be supported post sideboard then it should also be included pre-sideboard...  Obviously there is some discrepency there but its just my gut instinct

The Flash manabases need some serious work.

I agree... I've already mentioned the problem of the manabase and still feel that this illustrates a greater flaw with the deck design beyond just the mana base... Namely its ability to be resilient when not going off... The only answer to hate comes from FoW and Chain of Vapor (reactively) Chain of Vapor, while helpful, isn't always THAT great of an answer since it often takes a turn to find it, a turn to use it, and then a turn to play flash because of the bad mana base...  This means FoW is the only true answer unless you want to risk another disruption piece being dropped which is pretty much good game since the deck has no draw engine to speak of and can't afford to play "catch up" very well...

[Purple Hat]

(split second owns this deck)

There's a spectrum at which one end is building the fastest combo deck with no disruption and at the other is building a combo deck that can handle any hate, but goes off much more slowly.  Each strategy must find it's balance.  I think that if Flash tries to compensate against regular hate as well as stuff like MD trickbind, etc it starts to fight an uphill battle.  A prime example of this is that I don't think opening yourself up to wasteland is worth protecting against split second hate.

(duress stops proactive hate)

You entirely missed the thrust of my argument:

none of your pieces are completely lethal to your opponent, but you can manufacture them faster than they can answer them

More often than not, I wasn't mulling to find hate pieces when playing fish or stax against flash, I was trying decide which was the most effective turn 1 disruption out of a number of options.

Flash lost games where it had to use resources to find an answer to turn 1 leyline or pithing needle, and then while it was tutoring, a 2nd or 3rd piece would come down.

Youcan't winagainst Split Second with out Duress, you can win against Wasteland with another land. There's a difference between the opponent using an uncounterable win condition and removing a land that could/couldn't be important. You can't be unprepared for Split Second in this format, I've seen it in T1.5, and it's coming for T1 as soon as people catch up with 1.5 and come to the conclusion that Flash is the DTB.

dude...there's a huge difference between legacy and vintage.  In legacy right now flash enjoys a 1-2 turn speed advantage over EVERY OTHER DECK.  it doesn't just burn through the aggro and the control decks.  it's TWICE AS FAST as the other combo decks.  however as shown in the goldfish numbers above that simply isn't true in vintage where it's about the same speed as the other combo decks but packs a bit more disruption.  flash has an unbelievable advantage in legacy right now, I'm not sure that's gonna continue, but it might.  In vintage, however, flash is only marginally faster than the field if at all.  stealing 2 or more full turns takes VASTLY different answers than stealing 1 or less turns.

I'm still waiting for one of you guys to claim you invented the question mark.  the deck is good, don't get me wrong, but going around claiming it's the best, fastest, most resilient, most comboriffic, etc. deck ever and will cause all other decks to become obsolite simply because in a MUCH SLOWER FORMAT it is significantly faster than everything else is insane.  you know what else is broken in legacy?  pitch long, gifts, Dry Slaver, Oath....the list goes on.  The only numbers posted in this thread regarding the speed of this deck place it roughly in the range of most other vintage combo decks.  ~20% turn 1, 75% turn 2, 85-90% turn three when both the play and the draw are taken into account.  this deck has an advantage in protection but has slightly different vulnerabilities from the other decks.  pretending it's anything else isn't gonna make people like your deck better, it's just gonna make us think you're making things up.

[BreathWeapon]

There's no fundamental difference between the formats, because T1.5 is Combo vs Aggro-Control after Flash and T1 was Combo vs Aggro-Control pre-Flash (yes, there are some notable exceptions), and the Flash vs Flash mirrors are coming down to LV and Sudden Shock in T1.5, and there's no reason for me to believe that the Flash vs Gifts Ungiven match up isn't going to come down to the same thing when Gifts Ungiven can use Sudden Shock as anti-Flash and anti-Fish hate at the same time and the format has the acceleration to bring Sudden Shock online on its first turn.

Regardless of the rhetorical bull shit, if Flash doesn't at least use SB Duress or Xantid Swarms it's fucked against Split Second. As long as that points gets across, I could not care less about the rest of the theoretical comparisons between the two U/b dominated formats.

Comparing Flash to Pitch Long is just a joke, Flash is faster and more consistent, it has 33% more disruption and it has Merchant Scroll instead of Grim Tutor. So what if it has problems against LV and Chalice of the Void at 0? One is a SB problem and the other is a coin flip problem, and if Flash didn't have these problems, it would dominate the format in the absence of Ichorid and Fish. I'm more worried about losing against Gifts Ungiven's SB than I am against Fish and Ichorid, because you just have to accept your going to have an uphill battle against Fish and Ichorid, while the Gifts Ungiven (and the rest of the control spectrum) comes down to whether or not they're prepared for you.

@Other people that keep bringing up spot removal: spot removal isn't a serious issue, because all you have to do is MD your Benevolent Bodyguard and then Flash->Protean Hulk for Body Snatcher, Carrion Feeder, Benevolent Bodyguard and then sacrifice the Body Snatcher to recur the Protean Hulk and protect the kill condition from Echoing Truth.

[diopter]

There's no fundamental difference between the formats, because T1.5 is Combo vs Aggro-Control after Flash and T1 was Combo vs Aggro-Control pre-Flash (yes, there are some notable exceptions), and the Flash vs Flash mirrors are coming down to LV and Sudden Shock in T1.5, and there's no reason for me to believe that the Flash vs Gifts Ungiven match up isn't going to come down to the same thing when Gifts Ungiven can use Sudden Shock as anti-Flash and anti-Fish hate at the same time and the format has the acceleration to bring Sudden Shock online on its first turn.

Regardless of the rhetorical bull shit, if Flash doesn't at least use SB Duress or Xantid Swarms it's fucked against Split Second. As long as that points gets across, I could not care less about the rest of the theoretical comparisons across two U/b dominated formats.

Comparing Flash to Pitch Long is just a joke, Flash is faster and more consistent, it has 33% more disruption and it has Merchant Scroll instead of Grim Tutor. So what if it has problems against LV and Chalice of the Void at 0? One is a SB problem and the other is a coin flip problem, and if Flash didn't have these problems, it would dominate the format in the absence of Ichorid and Fish. I'm more worried about losing against Gifts Ungiven's SB than I am against Fish and Ichorid, because you just have to accept your going to have an uphill battle against Fish and Ichorid, while the Gifts Ungiven (and the rest of the control spectrum) comes down to whether or not they're prepared for you.

You can't dismiss Flash's tactical weaknesses on the one hand and then claim that Split Second ruins Flash on the other.

Before I continue, I want say that I don't think Flash is a bad deck, it's quite a powerful deck that just has some very glaring tactical weaknesses that can't be ignored.

Flash is weak to the following:
- Chalice @ 0 - this might as well be an effective loss
- Leyline of the Void - you spend time and resources bouncing it, meanwhile your opponent is winning the game.
- Tormod's Crypt - see above.

Just dealing with this above list, Flash is going have to work hard to win against prepared Stax players, prepared Gifts players, prepared Slaver players, and prepared combo players. Obviously the hate cards aren't going to bend over Flash, but by the same token Flash is not strong enough to just steamroll the aforementioned decks despite the hate.

Flash is going to work hard for its wins in Vintage. Ultimately the key is to have a stable manabase to be able to find the solutions, which necessitates cutting some of those great disruption cards to fit more lands, which means that your control package suddenly is on par with the control packages of other decks.

Re: Pitch Long v. Flash - Pitch Long isn't as weak to the hate Flash is, so it does quite well in its non-Flash matchups. In the PL v. Flash matchup, the two decks have similar clocks, so it comes down to a race preboard, while post-board PL can board Duresses or even worse, Leylines/Crypts. Flash can board Duresses, but they're nowhere near as scary to PL as Leyline or Crypt is to Flash.

Re: Split Second - 4 Duresses in Flash's board solves the problem.

[Implacable]

I don't really see why anyone would Chalice@0 vs. Hulk.  That seems nonsensical. It hits neither the accelerants nor the combo, and I can still go off through it very easily.  I'm simply not worried about it.  However, if the deck I play against is playing Chalice, I usually will side in the Truth Game 2.  The reason that I play 2:0 as opposed to 1:1 is that the Hulk deck, while not vulnerable in its manabase, is very light in its manabase, and even 1 extra mana is sometimes difficult to get.

How does chalice at 0 not affect your mana base????

Yeesh!  Clear mistype there: my fault.  I meant Chalice@1.  Sorry .

[policehq]

Sudden Shock...

And Brain Freeze decks are going to be bending over to Obstinate Familiar. Or at least, that Odyssey rare has been holding them back from tier 1 since the storm mechanic was released.

Anyway, the purpose of playing Protean Hulk instead of Academy Rector was to have Summoner's Pact as a tutor. You have a draw engine and eight copies of your combo pieces. Sudden Shock does not cause you to lose the game. Your opponent has, at the most, 4 Sudden Shock.

But even then, is Sudden Shock versatile enough to be used in Vintage sideboards? Not every sideboard has 4 Leyline of the Void simply because a lot of players have found other cards that can help them win the Ichorid match-up as well as be useful elsewhere.

If Sudden Shock wins the Flash game as well as Leyline of the Void versus Ichorid, and doesn't work against other decks in the metagame, how often will it be seen in sideboards? Once there are two or three tournaments where Sudden Shock has served its purpose, Flash would hit a low point like Dragon, making Sudden Shock utterly useless. At this point the use of Sudden Shock would be a guessing game and ultimately the answers that work against other decks and if your opponent will be playing Flash are better.

-hq

[BreathWeapon]

Sudden Shock...

And Brain Freeze decks are going to be bending over to Obstinate Familiar. Or at least, that Odyssey rare has been holding them back from tier 1 since the storm mechanic was released.

Anyway, the purpose of playing Protean Hulk instead of Academy Rector was to have Summoner's Pact as a tutor. You have a draw engine and eight copies of your combo pieces. Sudden Shock does not cause you to lose the game. Your opponent has, at the most, 4 Sudden Shock.

But even then, is Sudden Shock versatile enough to be used in Vintage sideboards? Not every sideboard has 4 Leyline of the Void simply because a lot of players have found other cards that can help them win the Ichorid match-up as well as be useful elsewhere.

If Sudden Shock wins the Flash game as well as Leyline of the Void versus Ichorid, and doesn't work against other decks in the metagame, how often will it be seen in sideboards? Once there are two or three tournaments where Sudden Shock has served its purpose, Flash would hit a low point like Dragon, making Sudden Shock utterly useless. At this point the use of Sudden Shock would be a guessing game and ultimately the answers that work against other decks and if your opponent will be playing Flash are better.

-hq

A) Resolving Sudden Shock against Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is good game.
B) Sudden Shock is uncounterable spot removal against Meddling Mage, True Believer, Children of Korlis, Dark Confidant, Kataki War's Wage, Gorilla Shaman, Magus of the Moon, Aven Mindcensor, Glowrider, Xantid Swarm and Goblin Welder.

This argument is over.

[Implacable]

BreathWeapon...  You are arguing for the inclusion of a card based on Hulk's vulnerability to a card that is never, ever played.  I don't particularly care if this card may be played in the future; it is not as of now and probably will never be. 

[diopter]

Sudden Shock...

And Brain Freeze decks are going to be bending over to Obstinate Familiar. Or at least, that Odyssey rare has been holding them back from tier 1 since the storm mechanic was released.

Anyway, the purpose of playing Protean Hulk instead of Academy Rector was to have Summoner's Pact as a tutor. You have a draw engine and eight copies of your combo pieces. Sudden Shock does not cause you to lose the game. Your opponent has, at the most, 4 Sudden Shock.

But even then, is Sudden Shock versatile enough to be used in Vintage sideboards? Not every sideboard has 4 Leyline of the Void simply because a lot of players have found other cards that can help them win the Ichorid match-up as well as be useful elsewhere.

If Sudden Shock wins the Flash game as well as Leyline of the Void versus Ichorid, and doesn't work against other decks in the metagame, how often will it be seen in sideboards? Once there are two or three tournaments where Sudden Shock has served its purpose, Flash would hit a low point like Dragon, making Sudden Shock utterly useless. At this point the use of Sudden Shock would be a guessing game and ultimately the answers that work against other decks and if your opponent will be playing Flash are better.

-hq

A) Resolving Sudden Shock against Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is good game.
B) Sudden Shock is uncounterable spot removal against Meddling Mage, True Believer, Children of Korlis, Dark Confidant, Kataki War's Wage, Gorilla Shaman, Magus of the Moon, Aven Mindcensor, Glowrider, Xantid Swarm and Goblin Welder.

This argument is over.

C) Sudden Shock trades one for one with Fish and then opens you up to Wasteland - if you are playing red anti-creature spells against Fish they better be named Pyroclasm or Flametongue Kavu, otherwise you are ceding tempo to Fish and they will make you pay for it. Not to mention the fact that Shock is so much better than Sudden Shock against Fish (Daze my Shock? Lol! FoW my Shock? The pleasure is all mine! Don't counter my Shock? Thanks for all the fish!) and Shock never sees play against Fish anyway.

All of the above means that Sudden Shock would basically be really good only against Hulk, and there are better cards that hate on Hulk and actually have uses outside that matchup.

[demonic effect]

A) Resolving Sudden Shock against Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is good game.
B) Sudden Shock is uncounterable spot removal against Meddling Mage, True Believer, Children of Korlis, Dark Confidant, Kataki War's Wage, Gorilla Shaman, Magus of the Moon, Aven Mindcensor, Glowrider, Xantid Swarm and Goblin Welder.

This argument is over.

Seriously dude... before you consistently make such claims respond to the numerous posts that have been made before this...
1.  Legacy is different than type 2
2.  Overall efficiency of card in terms of beating metagame
3.  Synergy with the deck (does that one extra mana matter)
4.  Etc...

The point is, before making such claims, tell us what decks should run which split second cards, give us detailed analysis how that improves the matchup etc... and why that card is THE card to use versus all of the other "hate" cards that could be used.

[SiegeX]

I've been out of the game for 5 months so I don't feel up to par to comment on the deck's strengths and weaknesses, but I would like to throw out a little food for thought to perhaps optimize the combo.

You can cut & paste Volrath's Shapeshifter for Body Snatcher which will allow you to bring an additional 2CC creature along with VSS and Carrion Feeder on the first Hulk trigger.  If you really think Sudden Shock is a major threat, Meddling Mage sounds like a plan.

VSS may allow for an even more optimized combo by playing GY stacking tricks, so far I can't think of one but that doesn't mean its not out there.  Of course Body Snatcher has the added benefit of allowing you to discard a combo piece, so maybe VSS + 2CC creature is a good SB strategy?

And last but not least, VSS can act like Tinker -> Colossus if you bring in a Phyrexian Dreadnought along with it.  Perhaps a nice alternate kill or a surprise G2/G3 approach?

-Sean

[rammgorr]

hi everybody,

why is the combo with arcbound ravager, 11-12 artefact creatures with cc0 and 3 disciples of the vault not discussed here. is it not competitive?

greez from germany

[Methuselahn]

hi everybody,

why is the combo with arcbound ravager, 11-12 artefact creatures with cc0 and 3 disciples of the vault not discussed here. is it not competitive?

greez from germany

Because it is obsolete.  Cards like Shifting Wall don't require extra cards or activating anything.

[BreathWeapon]

A) Resolving Sudden Shock against Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is good game.
B) Sudden Shock is uncounterable spot removal against Meddling Mage, True Believer, Children of Korlis, Dark Confidant, Kataki War's Wage, Gorilla Shaman, Magus of the Moon, Aven Mindcensor, Glowrider, Xantid Swarm and Goblin Welder.

This argument is over.

Seriously dude... before you consistently make such claims respond to the numerous posts that have been made before this...
1.  Legacy is different than type 2
2.  Overall efficiency of card in terms of beating metagame
3.  Synergy with the deck (does that one extra mana matter)
4.  Etc...

The point is, before making such claims, tell us what decks should run which split second cards, give us detailed analysis how that improves the matchup etc... and why that card is THE card to use versus all of the other "hate" cards that could be used.

Because I did,

1) There is no significant difference between T1 and T1.5 at the moment, because both of them are U/b dominated formats.
2) It doesn't require Control to use Leyline of the Void against Flash, it doubles as spot removal against Flash (in addition to the other removal against Fish, which disregards Diopter's entire point C)
3) Volcanic Island + Mox.
4) ?

Obviously Gifts Ungiven and Control Slaver, like I said before, and obviously by not letting your opponent win with out a Duress, like I said before. Whether or not you want to use Leyline of the Void and then X Sudden Shock or just use X Sudden Shock is really up to you.

I never said the card is going to be 4x in SBs until kingdom come, all I'm saying is that it's not the "lol Sudden Shock n00b" that people seem to think it is, and when combined with the rest of the split second cards it's an argument for Duress in the SB.

[diopter]

A) Resolving Sudden Shock against Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is good game.
B) Sudden Shock is uncounterable spot removal against Meddling Mage, True Believer, Children of Korlis, Dark Confidant, Kataki War's Wage, Gorilla Shaman, Magus of the Moon, Aven Mindcensor, Glowrider, Xantid Swarm and Goblin Welder.

This argument is over.

Seriously dude... before you consistently make such claims respond to the numerous posts that have been made before this...
1.  Legacy is different than type 2
2.  Overall efficiency of card in terms of beating metagame
3.  Synergy with the deck (does that one extra mana matter)
4.  Etc...

The point is, before making such claims, tell us what decks should run which split second cards, give us detailed analysis how that improves the matchup etc... and why that card is THE card to use versus all of the other "hate" cards that could be used.

Because I did,

1) There is no significant difference between T1 and T1.5 at the moment, because both of them are U/b dominated formats.
2) It doesn't require Control to use Leyline of the Void against Flash, it doubles as spot removal against Flash (in addition to the other removal against Fish, which disregards Diopter's entire point C)
3) Volcanic Island + Mox.
4) ?

Obviously Gifts Ungiven and Control Slaver, like I said before, and obviously by not letting your opponent win with out a Duress, like I said before. Whether or not you want to use Leyline of the Void and then X Sudden Shock or just use X Sudden Shock is really up to you.

I never said the card is going to be 4x in SBs until kingdom come, all I'm saying is that it's not the "lol Sudden Shock n00b" that people seem to think it is, and when combined with the rest of the split second cards it's an argument for Duress in the SB.

Duress is already mostly a lock for the SB, for being good against other fast combo while being incidentally good against Split Second.

That aside, it was never "lol Sudden Shock n00b". Sudden Shock's great, but you're not going to see it very often. To paraphrase Smennen, "opportunity cost of Sudden Shock, cost-benefit analysis, etc. etc.". There are simply cards that hate on Flash and do more in other matchups (looking at you Leyline of the Void) and so the likelihood of somebody Suddenly Shocking your Carrion Feeder is marginal in comparison. It's a moot point though, since you're packing Duress in the SB anyway.

[Implacable]

While I don't agree that Sudden Shock is a good reason to have Duress in the Side, random tech like Wipe Away and Trickbind is, and I agree with the conclusion that you reach.  It should also be noted that you have many dead cards against decks like Stax in Game 2 (Pact, MisD), and Duress helps fill those slots.

[BreathWeapon]

Regardless of the reasoning, we're all on the same page with Duress.

Changing the subject, do other people feel that Misdirection is superior to Pact of Negation? Not being able to protect Merchant Scroll for Ancestral Recall or Chain of Vapor seems to be a serious flaw in Pact of Negation's field of function in this deck. I can live with out Merchant Scroll for Ancestral Recall, but Merchant Scroll for Chain of Vapor is too common in game 2 and game 3 to give an opponent an edge in the counter war.

[SiegeX]

Perhaps nobody read my thread or you guys are seriously underestimating what Volrath's Shapeshifter can do for you.  Body Snatcher only allows you to bring in a 1CC creature with it (in addition to Carrion Feeder.)  VSS allows you to bring in a 2CC creature, thats a HUGE difference in my opinion.  You guys are talking left and right about the need for Duress to mitigate hate, well how about something like this?

VSS + Mesmeric Fiend + Carrion Feeder
or
VSS + Meddling Mage + Carrion Feeder

And I made this comment before but I didn't give it the emphasis it deserves, so let me say it again.

VSS + Phyrexian Dreadnaught = 12/12 Trampler (yes it works, I've quadrupled checked)

In fact, the VSS will even trigger a pandemonium for 12.  Not to mention that you can STILL bring in a Meddling Mage or Mesmeric Fiend or perhaps even some 2CC creature I cant think of that will let you win right now (TM).

[diopter]

Perhaps nobody read my thread or you guys are seriously underestimating what Volrath's Shapeshifter can do for you.  Body Snatcher only allows you to bring in a 1CC creature with it (in addition to Carrion Feeder.)  VSS allows you to bring in a 2CC creature, thats a HUGE difference in my opinion.  You guys are talking left and right about the need for Duress to mitigate hate, well how about something like this?

VSS + Mesmeric Fiend + Carrion Feeder
or
VSS + Meddling Mage + Carrion Feeder

And I made this comment before but I didn't give it the emphasis it deserves, so let me say it again.

VSS + Phyrexian Dreadnaught = 12/12 Trampler (yes it works, I've quadrupled checked)

In fact, the VSS will even trigger a pandemonium for 12.  Not to mention that you can STILL bring in a Meddling Mage or Mesmeric Fiend or perhaps even some 2CC creature I cant think of that will let you win right now (TM).

Snatcher's primary purpose is to allow you to combo out with Kiki-Jiki or Karmic Guide in hand without having to find Brainstorm - essentially turning a whole class of hands from mulligans or turn-3-at-best into lethal hands. The ability to bring out another creature is icing on the cake.

[demonic effect]

Changing the subject, do other people feel that Misdirection is superior to Pact of Negation? Not being able to protect Merchant Scroll for Ancestral Recall or Chain of Vapor seems to be a serious flaw in Pact of Negation's field of function in this deck. I can live with out Merchant Scroll for Ancestral Recall, but Merchant Scroll for Chain of Vapor is too common in game 2 and game 3 to give an opponent an edge in the counter war.

I think that both have their own uses... but in general I prefer misdirection over pact for the reason you listed... Like I've said before, one of the greatest problems i see with the deck is its ability to deal with hate that are permaments...  FoW is the only true means of stopping such hate with Scroll -> CoV being the other...  Since the scroll method is slower and has more steps, it is easier to disrupt requiring some type of protection = misdirection...  PoN is definately a better card when going off 99% of the time, but Misdirection still can serve as a means of protecting the combo while going off with the difference being relatively marginal...

Additionallly, Misdirection has the cute ability to not have 0cc which means it is still effective against chalice at 0 which is a major threat to the deck already

More important is the implication posed by

Regardless of the reasoning, we're all on the same page with Duress.

I feel that PoN is a great "combo" card in that it is free and can protect the combo once the process has begun...  However, considering that in those situations you probably are going to win anyway (barring a lucky FoW or sometimes Daze) and considering how bad PoN is unless you are attempting to initiate the combo would duress be better as a maindeck solution instead of PoN?  It can consistantly stop hate before the combo (like chalice, still can get counters, SoR, etc...) and can provide you valuable information as to whether or not you will be able to force your combo through... If they have 2 counters regardless if you have 1 PoN or 1 duress the combo will be stopped...  At least you are not guaranteed a loss with duress...

Additionally, duress also does not have the nasty habit of being stopped by chalice at 0 which is a very common play in vintage...  As such, you will have duress available more often than PoN...

With increased versatility comes a price... Namely duress would definately require more mana to be truly effective without slowing the combo down too much...  This may be beneficial, however, in that the mana base is the  easiest thing to attack with the deck proving that the pure speed of the PoN route is not as viable as a more consistent versatile route...

This is to by no means say that PoN is a bad card... but since this deck is not a storm deck, and does not draw a lot of cadrs, we have to be sure that the disruption used will be the most effective for the purpose we need...  Just food for thought

[Implacable]

The purpose of Pact of Negation is so that you can be aggressive and so that you never lose a counter war.  In my opinion, the optimal version of Flash is one that comes out of the gates blazing in Game 1 and then slows down to deal with hate in Games 2 & 3.  Doesn't it seem logical to go for the throat in Game 1, where you have more protection, tutoring, and speed than almost any other deck?  The only reason to not come out fast is fear of hate, which is where the extra Chains, the Rebuilds, the Duresses, and (sometimes) the Xantids come in.  This strategy has been used to great effect in Type 2, where Japanese decks will often have a very different gameplan postboard in order to deal with expected tactics.  I don't see why it can't be the same in Vintage.

[demonic effect]

The purpose of Pact of Negation is so that you can be aggressive and so that you never lose a counter war.  In my opinion, the optimal version of Flash is one that comes out of the gates blazing in Game 1 and then slows down to deal with hate in Games 2 & 3.  Doesn't it seem logical to go for the throat in Game 1, where you have more protection, tutoring, and speed than almost any other deck?  The only reason to not come out fast is fear of hate, which is where the extra Chains, the Rebuilds, the Duresses, and (sometimes) the Xantids come in.  This strategy has been used to great effect in Type 2, where Japanese decks will often have a very different gameplan postboard in order to deal with expected tactics.  I don't see why it can't be the same in Vintage.

Just to play devil's advocate...

I'm not saying that that is not the right play style... only that i don't know if duress will truly slow you down THAT much... granted, flash has a high chance of comboing off turn 1 for which PoN is exceedingly good...  there are also a lot of times in which flash will have to go for the turn 2 win (75% of the time) meaning that chalice, SoR, etc... can come down... additionally, the opponent can then use this turn to find more counters via merchant scroll or draw or to disrupt your land via strip or null rod (chalice serves this roll too) causing an even further delay...  I'm not saying that flash shouldn't try to pound them hard and early, but flash also doesn't have the draw engine of other decks to just keep on hammering the strategy spell after spell...  Duress helps games 2 and 3 and is a solid turn 1 play when you can't go off to pre-emptively stop chalice (so you don't spend time looking for CoV with scroll instead of flash) etc...  And Remember, duress can also fetch a counter if thats the biggest threat in the hand and so it still helps with the counter war... just pre-emptively

the only draw back is the casting cost which can delay it sometimes by a turn making the card useless, but you don't have the random losses and can determine if you can actually win... Not to mention, as stated, 75% of the time you will pass turn 1 anyway (or use it for scroll etc... admittedly)...  Is the tradeoff not worth it? do you truly think that with the format being so fast that decks are not packing hate that, if you don't win turn 1 on play that you will be significantly slowed?  even if they duress you and grab summoner's pact, flash, or scroll will that not slow you down a lot?

[Aardshark]

[D]o other people feel that Misdirection is superior to Pact of Negation? Not being able to protect Merchant Scroll for Ancestral Recall or Chain of Vapor seems to be a serious flaw in Pact of Negation's field of function in this deck. I can live with out Merchant Scroll for Ancestral Recall, but Merchant Scroll for Chain of Vapor is too common in game 2 and game 3 to give an opponent an edge in the counter war.

Last night I was testing daze in place of misdirection (Silvestri's idea, but not his list as I was still in black) and was quite pleased.  I was frequently able to stop mage and occassionally able to stop mage and often protect my turn 1 flash or merchant scroll, and being set back a land drop was never a problem (duress was in the side).  Admittedly it won't always protect merchant scroll --> bounce/flash, but it often will.

Misdirection is so narrow, and while I can understand the argument that PoN is even narrower (I think this cuts more against PoN than in favor of misdirection) PoN is better at balls-out protecting the combo.  I could get behind cutting PoNs but would keep at least 1, it was one of my most frequent tutor targets to protect the turn 2 win.

If not daze, wouldn't you rather have duress main than misdirection? Duress would also often protect turn 2 flash/merchant scroll most of the time, and would have a whole lot of other uses.

[Everrid1234]

2 Questions:

Is it possible somehow to win with this deck in the upkeep (without attacking, after having cast pact for exaple and it got countered) .....maybe via some damage-doing creatures (comes into play-effect)?

Is there a creature combination that can even win using less space in the deck?

[Implacable]

I'm fairly certain that there's a two card "add-on" to the barebones combo chassis involving Bloodshot Cyclops and flinging a massive Feeder at the opponent, but I'm not certain.  The problem would be cutting two cards, or even 1 card, from the deck.  It is as of now very tight indeed.  I am experimenting with a 10-counter build with more lands, and it has been very good in testing so far vs. Slaver & Stax (I've played about half-a-dozen matches against each on MWS).  I can't say how it does against anything else. 

One thing that I have noticed while playing against the random quick-hate decks that should destroy Flash is that adding even 2-3 lands has a huge impact on the game-win percentage.  It's astonishing how much of a difference it makes. 

[SiegeX]

I've been racking my head pretty hard to find a combo that is more optimal and so far I haven't had any luck.  The bottle neck appears to be that you need a creature with CMC<=6 who can remain in play and return another creature from the GY to play with no additional cost.  There are only two such creatures that do that, Karmic Guide and Phyrexian Delver, and Delver makes you lose life every time it returns something; so thats a no go.  I'm fairly confident that the combo package as it stands now is the most optimal using Kiki Jiki.  If there is a more optimal combo, I would be VERY surprised if it used Kiki Jiki or even had an infi loop for that matter.

[BreathWeapon]

I'm fairly certain that there's a two card "add-on" to the barebones combo chassis involving Bloodshot Cyclops and flinging a massive Feeder at the opponent, but I'm not certain.  The problem would be cutting two cards, or even 1 card, from the deck.  It is as of now very tight indeed.  I am experimenting with a 10-counter build with more lands, and it has been very good in testing so far vs. Slaver & Stax (I've played about half-a-dozen matches against each on MWS).  I can't say how it does against anything else. 

One thing that I have noticed while playing against the random quick-hate decks that should destroy Flash is that adding even 2-3 lands has a huge impact on the game-win percentage.  It's astonishing how much of a difference it makes. 

You go Flash->Protean Hulk, search for Body Snatcher, Carrion Feeder and Benevolent Bodyguard, and then sacrifice Body Snatcher to return Protean Hulk, sacrifice Protean Hulk, search for Karmic Guide and Teardrop Kami, return Protean Hulk, sacrifice Protean Hulk,  search for Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, infinite loop, and then return the Protean Hulk at the end of the infinite loop, sacrifice Protean Hulk, search for Bloodshot Cyclops, sacrifice Teardrop Kami to untap Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, copy Bloodshot Cyclops + Haste, sacrifice Carrion Feeder for the win.

[Implacable]

I may actually pursue the instant-speed kill.  I've been pining for it ever since I re-added Pacts to the deck (I was playing Pactless for a while).  Winning on your upkeep is sum good.

[diopter]

I may actually pursue the instant-speed kill.  I've been pining for it ever since I re-added Pacts to the deck (I was playing Pactless for a while).  Winning on your upkeep is sum good.

I found that instant-speed is not worth it to accomodate the Pacts alone, but the incremental advantages of having an instant speed kill (initiating counterwars at EOT, waiting for opponents to tap out, and of course the Pact advantage) is probably enough to make it worth it. However I am dissatisfied with the Kami/Cyclops package as that is two extra cards to the kill. This will lead to a lot more dead draws. I'd be satisfied with a single extra add-on creature - anybody got any ideas on another creature that can kill the opponent instnatly with an arbitrarily large army with an arbitrarily large leader?

[BreathWeapon]

I may actually pursue the instant-speed kill.  I've been pining for it ever since I re-added Pacts to the deck (I was playing Pactless for a while).  Winning on your upkeep is sum good.

I found that instant-speed is not worth it to accomodate the Pacts alone, but the incremental advantages of having an instant speed kill (initiating counterwars at EOT, waiting for opponents to tap out, and of course the Pact advantage) is probably enough to make it worth it. However I am dissatisfied with the Kami/Cyclops package as that is two extra cards to the kill. This will lead to a lot more dead draws. I'd be satisfied with a single extra add-on creature - anybody got any ideas on another creature that can kill the opponent instnatly with an arbitrarily large army with an arbitrarily large leader?

You need a 6cc or less creature based Goblin Bombardment or a 6cc or less CIP/LP creature that takes advantage of the number of creatures on the board to win the game at instant speed, and I'm afraid that neither of those creatures exist at the moment.

On a side note, Chrome Mox is a must in the manabase.