June 1st Banned and Restricted Changes

[Kowal]

I've played four facts.  It's awful.  There are better ways to spend the mana for stronger effects.  However, it's probably an argument for another thread.

[TheBrassMan]

I echo the sentiments of many people in this thread.  The timing was awkward, but I respect the decision, even if I was hoping for something else.  It was a good run, Gifts, I'm gonna miss yah.

[xiko]

GO kismet-stasis-morphling 4 gush ftw!.


I dont agree on gush AT ALL, it is way to powerfull. Fastbond turn 1 and you can win with everything.

[Implacable]

In regard to Mr. Menendian's post on Gush Tendrils, I'd also like to point out that I'm already testing a list of FlashGush.dec:

4 Protean Hulk
4 Street Wraith
1 Body Snatcher
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Karmic Guide
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

4 Brainstorm
4 Flash
4 Force of Will
4 Gush
4 Pact of Negation
3 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Vampiric Tutor

12 Lands
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

Just tear through your deck 'til you hit the combo, then throw it on the table with 1-2 counters in hand.  I'll try to fit a Fastbond in.

[LSD/Cruise]

ehh.... I'm running Gush Fish and Gushy Bird Sh*t. There, Tempo decks have a chance now. What is Fish gonna do with all that land? Chain into Gushes of course!


// Lion Fish
// Mana 21
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
1 Plains
2 Island


// Creatures 15
4 Savannah Lions
2 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Meddling Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Kataki, War's Wage


// Spells 24
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Gush
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Echoing Truth
3 Null Rod



.... I was half joking. I do see decks like Fish and Gush having enough fuel to do stupid crap though.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Gifts Ungiven - this is a case where you have to look at the card, not the deck, it was doing broken things (more broken than bazaar? probably not)

Black Vise, Mind Twist, Voltaic Key - 2002 called, it wants it's metagame back - nothing to see here

Gush - So you can't use this until turn 2?  Like I ever see that anymore.  Regardless, there's always Solfatara.dec as an answer.


We're finally getting some shaking up in T1, sit back and enjoy it for a change.  The format is getting faster, but that's what it does.

[The Demon]

Gifts Ungiven - this is a case where you have to look at the card, not the deck, it was doing broken things (more broken than bazaar? probably not)

Black Vise, Mind Twist, Voltaic Key - 2002 called, it wants it's metagame back - nothing to see here

Gush - So you can't use this until turn 2?  Like I ever see that anymore.  Regardless, there's always Solfatara.dec as an answer.


We're finally getting some shaking up in T1, sit back and enjoy it for a change.  The format is getting faster, but that's what it does.

Why do we have to look at the card as opposed to the deck?  That card could not be made to be "busted or broken".  It's biggest strength is its biggest weakness.  Yes, you get two cards, but you dont get the two you want, and since it is obvious that the deck is not doing as well as it did for many factors it is not restriction worthy.  When did this card that was doing all these broken things warp or corrupt the format?  It never did, I mean honestly the restriction makes no sense at all, there is very little actually correct logic applied to its restriction.

[hazard]

As a minutely relevant side note, Mind Twist used the wording 'opponent' until 4th Edition.  That version and the oracle text now say 'target player'.  That would be an amusing Misdirection.

[jakjakman]

Overall, I feel like this announcement really punches Vintage's dignity right in the balls.  We get a bunch more random brokennness at the expense of good decks that demand solid players.  I'm pretty disgusted.

Have magic players ever staged a formal protest of restriction/unrestriction choices?  Putting Gifts on the list just disgusts me. 

[Smmenen]

Gush - So you can't use this until turn 2? 

Why do you assume that? 

[CranialX]

Hi, since gifts got restricted in what way should the deck adjust.
If some one got an idea please post your idea.

[slyfer]

But misdirection will see less play because now gift deck is dead 
twist will be supported by mana drain, so drain is still nice...

I will play a storm deck based on 2 brainfreeze as kill condition, with asymmetrical twisters inside

[Dozer]

Gush - So you can't use this until turn 2? 

Why do you assume that? 

I'm going to walk right into Smmenen's "OMG it's a trap" moment and state the obvious: Because unless you are eqipped with a Fastbond and two lands, chances are that you will not have two Islands to pay for Gush's alternate mana cost on turn one. Of course, you could generate mana, and I know the old Gifts skeleton for one is capable of that, but still... GI seems to have a point. But if you open Mox, Lotus, Land, wouldn't you probably do something else than Gushing?

BTW, the old Misdirection on Mind Twist was a fun staple of classic 4cc on 4cc battles (if they ran Twist).

Hi, since gifts got restricted in what way should the deck adjust.

It should certainly play less Gifts.^^

//aside: This doesn't belong in this thread, I think.// Apart from that, Scroll + Gifts was the central card-finding engine, so if you want a blue-based Storm deck, you have to look for another one of those. It is likely that you'll have to rely less on graveyard-based strategies (Will, Recoup) and instead go for a proper Storm kill, just as the Gifts deck was wont to pull off anyway most of the time. You don't need Recoup for Will to go off, and now that you have three less ways to set it up, I'd think you'd better forego the idea. As a simple recovery spell, Regrowth is better... if you even want one. Coupling fast mana and card drawing, you could try a Ritual-Gush-Hybrid or go the Smmenen route with Regrowth and Fastbond. You will still be playing a blue-based storm combo deck either way.

[Stamford]

As a minutely relevant side note, Mind Twist used the wording 'opponent' until 4th Edition.  That version and the oracle text now say 'target player'.  That would be an amusing Misdirection.

Most decks that utilise Mind Twist utilise Duress/Unmask/Cabal Therapy.

Im sure most Sui Black decks will Duress first before Mind Twist to make sure they dont get it Misdirected.

_____________________________ _____________________________ _____________________________ __
On another note, does anyone think that Mind Twist can be used as the "new Duress" in combo decks?

I mean, sometimes, a combo deck can utilise Mind Twist as a way to get ahead of the opponent in terms of card advantage.

Mind Twist could work as Duress slots #5 and #6.

I do agree the restriction of Gifts Ungiven was unneccessary.

Restricting Grim Tutor would be a bit too much, since there are other decks like Ichorid and Groatog getting so fast. Restricting a Tutor that cost 1BB and 3 life, (Meaning that you either cast it with a ritual effect or on turn 2, and needs calculation of life totals) should not be restricted, since it would completely make the format without a reasonably-costed good tutor.
Next on the line would be Diabolic Tutor :Sarcasm: Why pay 3 life when you can pay 1 mana more?

[Grand Inquisitor]

Dozer @ Smennen

Right, the two cards that allow 'early' Gush are fastbond (exploration is probably not sufficiently broken) and Time Walk.  You can always demonic/grim for fastbond, but those seem like plays that don't optimize resources.

I see Gush as enabling midgame combo decks, but nothing that would race Flash or Ichorid.  However, if fish and shop decks push the meta-hole towards more resilient midrange decks, Gush could be solid in those.

[serberoth]

I do not agree 100% with the un-restriction of Gush. I think R&D was a bit premature in making that move; however, only time will tell.  I do agree with Implacable's and Mr. Menendian's posts that Gush will be showcased much more in other decks like storm decks and possibly flash decks.  While GAT is still a powerful option there is enough hate for decks that showcase Mr. Teeth out there now.  While I am not 100% on Gush in Flash decks it does seem a very powerful option.

Mind Twist is a very interesting card to have unrestricted as well.  I am not quite sure I can fathom the effect on the meta-game this un-restriction will have.  Though I have to admit, a Twist behind a Chalice seems really good to me.  Not too sure if this would work well with Black Vise as others have suggested, perhaps I am just missing the card synergy.

[Machinus]

I completely agree with Smmenen about the comparitive power level of Gush and Gifts Ungiven. Thinking about it in the context of GAT or Tog is basically thinking about another format.

Gush is:

-Free
-Blue
-Instant
-A Draw Spell (two cards)

The restriction on playing the card is that you have to have Islands in play.

I put together Gush Tendrils last night and I think the deck has a very strong future. I'm not sold on all of the choices in the prototype list Smmenen just posted, but I'm sure this archetype will be refined quickly.

There is also the question of why even bother taking action with respect to Gifts, when the response to the deck has been basically successful in dealing with it.

Key coming off, to me, symbolizes a new era in B/R action. I think some changes have occurred in the way the DCI is going to handle the lists. I'm not sure if they are all positive.

Is Black Vise going to matter?

Mind Twist is still a good card, but the prevalence of Misdirection and the strong resistance many decks have to discard places this card at a different power level in todays format. I'm skeptical that it is good enough to be played.

[BreathWeapon]

While I disagree with the restriction of Gifts Ungiven and the unrestriction of Gush, at least the unrestriction of Mind Twist shows that R&D is willing to re-evaluate older cards and return them to the format. Even if it's just for three months, I'd love to see Mind's Desire, Timespiral, Windfall and Fact or Fiction come off to.

So, is there a Mana Drain deck that can compete against Flash and Ichorid at this point? AK Tendrils or Bomberman?

[Klep]

Even if it's just for three months, I'd love to see Mind's Desire ...  come off to.

This would just about be the absolute worst thing they could possibly do to the list.  I'm not sure 4 Lotuses or 4 Wills would even be worse than 4 Desires.  Each Lotus is just as good as the first, and Will only gets weaker as more are cast.  Each Desire, on the other hand, is twice as good as the previous one.  I cannot overemphasize how stupid, how mindbogglingly terrible Vintage with 4 Desires would be.

[Nehptis]

To the Gifts restriction haters I think Aaron's logic is pretty sound:

"Powerful spells that tutor for a single card are generally restricted in this format, so what about one that tutors for four cards? Seems natural, especially as the card's cousin, Fact or Fiction, also resides on the Restricted List."

But, I think they missed the boat on Flash big time.  Granted Ich is pretty powerful with FUT.  But, it is kept in check by LD and GY hate, and the fact that it isn't blue based doesn't give it access to counters.  Flash on the otherhand is a blue based deck.  So, even if you try and counter it's bounce it can win counter wars.  It's biggest weakness is COTV at 2.  But, again bounce with counter backup is very easy for Flash.

Lastly, IMO the biggest issue with Flash is that it resembles Tinker, which of course is restricted. 

-Tinker is 1 sided (e.g. benefits 1 player only).  So is Flash.
-Tinker and Flash circumvent casting costs.  Flash does it at instant speed!  Why did Rector/ Therpay never dominate?  Because you had to CAST the Rector and then have a means of killing it (Therapy in the GY.)  Why didn't Show and Tell / Rector become viable? 1) You are taking an awful risk of your opponent dropping a bomb.  2) It's a 3 card combo (Rector / S&T / Therapy).
-Tinker for DSC or 7/10 or Slaver usually means GG.  But, more often than not it takes at least 1 or 2 turns post Tinker for that to happen.  Flash is GG as soon as it resolves.

If you still think Flash is not restriction worthy then play with it, and against a few times and you'll be begging for it to be restricted.

[diopter]

Even if it's just for three months, I'd love to see Mind's Desire ...  come off to.

This would just about be the absolute worst thing they could possibly do to the list.  I'm not sure 4 Lotuses or 4 Wills would even be worse than 4 Desires.  Each Lotus is just as good as the first, and Will only gets weaker as more are cast.  Each Desire, on the other hand, is twice as good as the previous one.  I cannot overemphasize how stupid, how mindbogglingly terrible Vintage with 4 Desires would be.

The current available acceleration doesn't support consistent turn 2 Desires. Desire itself might not be counterable but in a 4-Desire environment, but Rituals are, and you are going to be telegraphing your turn 3 Desire the moment you play Ritual off a manabase that can tap for an additional UU.

Not to say Desire would be okay to unrestrict... but it's a little much to say that 4 Lotus < 4 Desire.

[Harlequin]

The glaring differance between Flash and Tinker is that Flash doesn't search your deck.  Would Tinker be restricted if it put an artifact from your -hand- into play?  My guess is no (with shop and welder if you have an artifact in hand - its not hard to get it into play).  
-----------------
More generally:

I agree with Gift's Restriction.  As I stated in other threads, Gifts is undercosted for what it does.  It has the same cost:effect ratio as some of the weaker restricted cards: Vamp Tutor, FoF, (gush?), Mystical.  As I've shown in other posts, Retricting Gifts is logical.  On that note, I totally agree with others like Andy that the timeing is odd - and that all in all Gifts added more to the format thn it detracted.  So I will bid it a fond fair-well, and know that it will see play as a 1-of.

I'm a bit surprised that Fastbond didn't come off at the same time Vice and Twist did.  I always viewed those 3 cards in the same boat.  Namely cards that are not 'broken' in cost:effect but rather they are just -so- good in your opening hand on the play.  

I don't think Twist is really that bad.  Many post back someone said that Land, Rit, Rit, Valut, Mindtwist could destroy an entire hand/game.  But I contest that is that any worse than Land, Rit Rit Valut Grim, will, rit, grim tendrils?  Also I would point out that it commits more than just mana to do this?  Above is 5 cards of a 7 card hand.  So I think thats at least "vintage" fair.

With Vice -AND- Gush off the list - will vintage stasis make a comeback?

[Hi-Val]

I think we'll see Trinisphere unrestricted by the end of the year.

[jakjakman]

More generally:

I agree with Gift's Restriction.  As I stated in other threads, Gifts is undercosted for what it does.  It has the same cost:effect ratio as some of the weaker restricted cards: Vamp Tutor, FoF, (gush?), Mystical.  As I've shown in other posts, Retricting Gifts is logical.  On that note, I totally agree with others like Andy that the timeing is odd - and that all in all Gifts added more to the format thn it detracted.  So I will bid it a fond fair-well, and know that it will see play as a 1-of.

I don't buy into your arguments.  If a deck built around a certain 'broken/undercosted' card is not dominating the format anymore, then the card really isn't a problem.  Just being 'powerful' or 'undercosted' should not be a reason to restrict a card.  Big deal if Fact or Fiction is on the list; if Gifts Ungiven is not causing problems, then why the hell does it need to be fixed?  There is a third option to the 'take off Fact or Fiction or restrict Gifts Ungiven' dilemma: simply do nothing.  As far as Gifts Ungiven being splashed into other decks besides the Meandeck Gifts architecture, only one or two copies of Gifts are being put into those decks anyway--again, restricting it is not fixing anything.

[Methuselahn]

For good or for bad, I'm just glad to see some action take place.  If Gush dominates, it can just be restricted again.  Consider it your chance to soak in the brokeny goodness.

Here's to testing the waters!   

[Akuma]

I, for one, am mostly happy about this announcement.

I would have liked Gifts Ungiven to remain legal, but the unrestrictions are GREAT and long overdue. Everyone should stop whining, go build the broken and unfair decks that you believe the new unrestricted cards will lead to, dominate a few tournaments and show the Vintage community that they need to be re-restricted. No wild speculation please...

Thank you WotC!

[Razvan]

(squarebracket) hide from jacob and other mods (squarebracket)
are these people fucking stupid?
(squarebracket) (slash) hide from jacob and other mods (squarebracket)

sorry, honestly, there's nothing else to say. what the HELL is this?

so, let's make ichorid insane, let's make flash insane (seriously, 1U: win the game), let's make gifts ungiven weak, then restrict it, just because it's a deck that's actually fun.

SIGH! SIIIIIIIIIIIGH!

the explanation is silly. it honestly is. i love his last line: "It should still see play as a one-of.".

no, it won't see any play. there's no reason to play a FOUR CASTING COST CARD THAT's A TUTOR when the two tier one decks win either on turn 3 with ZERO spells played, or turn 1 with a 1U spell played. unless you are dumb like me.

[BreathWeapon]

Even if it's just for three months, I'd love to see Mind's Desire ...  come off to.

This would just about be the absolute worst thing they could possibly do to the list.  I'm not sure 4 Lotuses or 4 Wills would even be worse than 4 Desires.  Each Lotus is just as good as the first, and Will only gets weaker as more are cast.  Each Desire, on the other hand, is twice as good as the previous one.  I cannot overemphasize how stupid, how mindbogglingly terrible Vintage with 4 Desires would be.

The current available acceleration doesn't support consistent turn 2 Desires. Desire itself might not be counterable but in a 4-Desire environment, but Rituals are, and you are going to be telegraphing your turn 3 Desire the moment you play Ritual off a manabase that can tap for an additional UU.

Not to say Desire would be okay to unrestrict... but it's a little much to say that 4 Lotus < 4 Desire.

I agree, I've seen unrestricted Mind's Desire in Extended, with Lotus Blood, and Classic, with LED, and I doubt that Mind's Desire in Vintage, with no unrestricted source of U, is going to be more than a turn 3 Stifle magnet.  It's good, but it's not as good as Yawgmoth's Bargain, Necropotence or even Doomsday, IMO. Speaking of Doomsday, holy shit is 4 Gush Doomsday insane.

[Smmenen]

This might be of interest.

A few years ago I ran a tournament with Meandeckers piloting famous Vintage decks that were illegal due to restrictions.   

4 Gush GroAtog beat *both* 4 Fact or Fiction BBS and 4 Necropotence Trix as well as 4 Academy decks: 

You can read all about it here: “The Banned Plays Again”
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/7699.html

[jakjakman]

This might be of interest.

A few years ago I ran a tournament with Meandeckers piloting famous Vintage decks that were illegal due to restrictions.   

4 Gush GroAtog beat *both* 4 Fact or Fiction BBS and 4 Necropotence Trix as well as 4 Academy decks: 

You can read all about it here: “The Banned Plays Again”
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/7699.html

Maybe with Wizards losing their minds they'll take Lion's Eye Diamond and Burning Wish off the list too.