June 1st Banned and Restricted Changes

[Implacable]

The problem that I've been having so far in my testing of Gush is that, in Flash or in Long, you have to cut some tutors to play it, and you have to get to Turn 2 to start using it.  I'm not sure that it's always worth it.

However, Gush is obviously the stone-cold in Doomsday.

[BreathWeapon]

I think one of the key things that alot of people seem to be forgetting in regards to gush the psuedo debate about FoF and the slight mention of mind's desire is this. How crazy or insane can you get when the first copy leads into the second copy and even on those odd occasions a third copy.

That was part of what gave FoF its insane card advantage sure up front you could take 3 cards but what if you flipped a 2nd fact and other brokeness you could always have the potential to get another one and at least one semi relevant card. I believe the same holds true for mind's desire, up front the cost of 4uu seems high and maybe inconsistent but what happens when  you  desire for 5-7 and in those cards you flip the second desire. Now you have suddenly gone from a medium storm count to one in the teens and are desiring a second time with almost 1/3 of your deck removed with TWO more desires left. The possibilites are a little ridiculous.

These instances are also what make gush so powerfu. Being able to generate mana and cards at such a slight drawback is a little to fast and strong. What other card can you think of that can do that? When you couple that with the ability to find another gush (i.e by drawing it or casting merchant scroll or other tutors) you open up alot of avenues for combo and aggression decks.

I think going forward the thought of playing gush + fact or fiction is just absolutely balls insane. At no point would I want someone to go land duress then land mox mox tap for two gush then fact. Some of this discussion is moot as alot of others have said and I am sure someone will streamline a hybrid gush.long or DD deck soon to merit its re-restriction.

Edit: I'm not debating whether or not Mind's Desire should be unrestricted, rather, that the current decks are superior to unrestricted Fact or Fiction or Mind's Desire.

But is Fact or Fiction into Fact or Fiction or Mind's Desire into Mind's Desire comparable to the speed, power and consistency of Ichorid, Flash and Doomsday? I understand that Fact or Fiction seems intimidating, but Fact or Fiction in and of itself does not end the game, and if a deck can can cast Mind's Desire (4UU) thru' control's counter walls, thru' aggro-control's counters/discard/mana denial and thru' Prison's mana denial, doesn't it deserve to end the game? I'm not certain that Mind's Desire into Mind's Desire even matters, because as long as Mind's Desire reveals a threat(s), regardless of the threat(s), it's GG. The actual threat density of your deck isn't changing, your just getting a higher probability of the first Mind's Desire and less probability of fizzling (I think). Doomsday is ending the game for half of the mana, for black mana, and it's reducing the amount of acceleration in combo, increasing the amount of disruption in combo and adding a draw engine. That's INSANE for combo. The June 20 Ichorid, Flash and Doomsday metagame is literally leaps and bounds better than anything else on the restricted list at that point.

At a guess, I imagine Fact or Fiction and Trinisphere need to come off the list before Mana Drain and Workshops are going to be able to compete against the post June 20 decks, and even then it's debatable. When Leyline of the Void is a serious MD consideration, or even a necessary MD consideration, you seriously need to re-evaluate your environment.

[andrewpate]

When Leyline of the Void is a serious MD consideration, or even a necessary MD consideration, you seriously need to re-evaluate your environment.

I don't see why this is the case.  Vintage has a long tradition of favoring free spells (for obvious reasons) and the Leyline is one of those, speaking in its favor.  Also, for whatever reason, many of the game's most powerful cards are graveyard-based.  Maindeck Tormod's Crypt has been popping up here and there for years.  Leyline is an amazingly effective, free hoser (even free-er than Crypt itself, since it dodges turn 1 Chalice for 0).  We don't complain about maindeck Null Rods, which are clearly awesome, so what's the big deal?

As for Doomsday > Mind's Desire, I mean come on.  I was torn between refuting you and jumping straight to the "Report to moderator" button.

Unlike Doomsday, Mind's Desire has virtually no deckbuilding constraints associated with its inclusion.  You can run a blue-based control deck with 4xMana Drain and just chill for a few turns, then bounce some of your own artifacts, recast them, and Desire for around 6 (probably off a Drain) with at least a Force and a hardcasted counterspell ready for defense against Stifle and friends, with plenty of maindeck room left for Duress and such in order to protect yourself from Trickbind.  Doomsday decks typically run no more than 12 disruption slots, 4 of which are usually Unmask, a card which can often slow down your combo or even fail to work at all if you have mulliganed aggressively.  Forget Leylines; if Desire were unrestricted, suddenly land, Mox, Ritual, Cranial Extraction with Force of Will backup would become the defining play of Vintage.

I never thought I'd see the day when I wrote a whole paragraph about why Mind's Desire is more powerful than Doomsday.

[diopter]

When Leyline of the Void is a serious MD consideration, or even a necessary MD consideration, you seriously need to re-evaluate your environment.

I don't see why this is the case.  Vintage has a long tradition of favoring free spells (for obvious reasons) and the Leyline is one of those, speaking in its favor.  Also, for whatever reason, many of the game's most powerful cards are graveyard-based.  Maindeck Tormod's Crypt has been popping up here and there for years.  Leyline is an amazingly effective, free hoser (even free-er than Crypt itself, since it dodges turn 1 Chalice for 0).  We don't complain about maindeck Null Rods, which are clearly awesome, so what's the big deal?

As for Doomsday > Mind's Desire, I mean come on.  I was torn between refuting you and jumping straight to the "Report to moderator" button.

Unlike Doomsday, Mind's Desire has virtually no deckbuilding constraints associated with its inclusion.  You can run a blue-based control deck with 4xMana Drain and just chill for a few turns, then bounce some of your own artifacts, recast them, and Desire for around 6 (probably off a Drain) with at least a Force and a hardcasted counterspell ready for defense against Stifle and friends, with plenty of maindeck room left for Duress and such in order to protect yourself from Trickbind.  Doomsday decks typically run no more than 12 disruption slots, 4 of which are usually Unmask, a card which can often slow down your combo or even fail to work at all if you have mulliganed aggressively.  Forget Leylines; if Desire were unrestricted, suddenly land, Mox, Ritual, Cranial Extraction with Force of Will backup would become the defining play of Vintage.

I never thought I'd see the day when I wrote a whole paragraph about why Mind's Desire is more powerful than Doomsday.

Desire in a deck with 4x FoW, 4x Drain, 2-4x Duress, and a heavy land base (which is what you are suggesting as a shell) might not guarantee a win at all, unless you are counting on hitting another Desire. Also, you might be dead before you even get to play the Desire.

[Evenpence]

I think we'll see Trinisphere unrestricted by the end of the year.

We I can only hope.

[BreathWeapon]

LV is a free, uncounterable answer to an opponent's deck that turns the game's interaction into mulligian for LV and mulligan/draw/tutor into an answer for LV. Perhaps Ichorid and Flash are such unfair threats that they deserve an equally unfair answer, but there's a huge difference between a counterable 1xArtifact that was tutored for and an uncounterable 4xEnchantment that is mulliganed for. LV is almost as bad, if not worse, than Trinisphere was on the environment, it's just dependent on people using the best decks in the format instead of being innately unfair.

I think Mind's Desire in a control shell is worse than Gifts Ungiven in a control shell, because while both cards end the game, Mind's Desire is a sorcery, 4UU, relies on revealing other Mind's Desires and/or Sins of the Past and can't be tutored for with Merchant Scroll or used as a set up card. Draining into it isn't that great either, because in order to be lethal it needs acceleration to generate storm, at which point you may be better off playing Combo Desire. Mind's Desire does cause design restraints, it's impossible for any card not to. Just look at the Extended decks and see the amount of acceleration and Desires/Sins they have to use to get it to work, and they even get more legitimate Desire targets in their tutor package than you do in your control package.

But, that's getting off topic, the point is that Flash and Doomsday/Gush are utterly insane by comparison, and if you are restricting and unrestricting cards on the basis of their power level, then Flash and Doomsday/Gush are raising the bar. Doomsday/Gush feels really close to the power level of Yawgmoth's Bargain or Necropotence and Flash is utterly retarded short of Leyline of the Void.

[dicemanx]

All these suggestions of Ichorid, Flash, or Doomsday/Gush being "insane" and including cards that are "stronger" than certain cards currently on the B/R  list, including FoF and Desire - is this random speculation or does it have any basis in fact?

I think some people are greatly overestimating the strength of all three archetypes. They might affect the format in an adverse manner in that they limit the exent of interactivity and thus minimize playskill (shifting emphasis more on deck construction, metagaming, and mulliganing decisions), but they are aren't that much more powerful than certain prison or control strategies because of their vulnerabilities to strong disruption cards in the environment.

For instance, when I see something like this:

I think going forward the thought of playing gush + fact or fiction is just absolutely balls insane. At no point would I want someone to go land duress then land mox mox tap for two gush then fact.

Have you really thought this through? The play you are describing seems pretty terrible, since you will end your turn with no lands in play and you will likely discard 1-2 cards - hardly a bargain and potentially serious negative impact on your development. Gush really isn't that impressive as a pure draw spell, because it has a two turn delay, hampers development at little gain and is incapable of chaining early. Gush's strength lies in its combo potential, but aside from Fastbond, it doesn't actually constitute any engine in T1 - in storm combo then, apart from the Fastbond related kills, its strength in adding a storm count for free is offset by the weakness as a pure card drawer, so its flexibility is diminished.

I think its powerful, but not the monster some perceive it to be. I will try to break it like everyone else, but I don't think that we'll discover anything really that earth shattering.

[o uncola o]

I completely agree with you.   Dream Halls is actually just garbage.   You have hit on many of the core problems.   There were safer cards to unrestrict (I mean, it's not like I didn't advocate unrestricting Mind Twist - I called for it several times, but only after they unrestricted the safer cards first.   

After all of this, I'm beginning to think that a very robust pure card advantage deck like 4 Fact Blue would be healthy for Vintage.  It would provide a safe home for Drains.

In light of these changes, I think we should lobby for the unrestriction of Fact.   

In the past, I have agreed with most of your reads on the format.  Most of the time you are right.  However, I think that Dream Halls is not "garbage".  I do not know if you were serious or not.  if I missed the ball on your sarcasm, I apologize.  If Dream Halls is too weak for the format, do you think that this is because of its high casting cost? 

[Imsomniac101]

I completely agree with you.   Dream Halls is actually just garbage.   You have hit on many of the core problems.   There were safer cards to unrestrict (I mean, it's not like I didn't advocate unrestricting Mind Twist - I called for it several times, but only after they unrestricted the safer cards first.   

After all of this, I'm beginning to think that a very robust pure card advantage deck like 4 Fact Blue would be healthy for Vintage.  It would provide a safe home for Drains.

In light of these changes, I think we should lobby for the unrestriction of Fact.   

In the past, I have agreed with most of your reads on the format.  Most of the time you are right.  However, I think that Dream Halls is not "garbage".  I do not know if you were serious or not.  if I missed the ball on your sarcasm, I apologize.  If Dream Halls is too weak for the format, do you think that this is because of its high casting cost? 

Dream Halls is absolute trash. That's the absolute truth. Not sure how you can say otherwise. A deck built around the card is bound to consist of many dead cards, not to mention the heavy mana cost of Dream Halls. In addition to that, you have the heavy restriction of the cost of use. I'm not sure why you interpreted that statement as sarcasm.

Does this mean, for the first time since well maybe ever, that it is nigh indisputable that there is no top deck that runs Mana Drain?  This seems to be way more important than any single card becoming restricted/unrestricted.  Could Shops be back with a vengeance?

That's the biggest implication of these changes.

I think most of the people including Wizards are desperately trying to move the format to Drain dominance after such a long period of absence. These people are just grasping at straws.While I've enjoyed the fact that the format has done without Drain dominance, and though the pendulum has swung to the other side,  I think that it has swung too far. Right now the way to bring the format back into balance is unrestrict Gifts and FoF.

[BreathWeapon]

All these suggestions of Ichorid, Flash, or Doomsday/Gush being "insane" and including cards that are "stronger" than certain cards currently on the B/R  list, including FoF and Desire - is this random speculation or does it have any basis in fact?

I think some people are greatly overestimating the strength of all three archetypes. They might affect the format in an adverse manner in that they limit the exent of interactivity and thus minimize playskill (shifting emphasis more on deck construction, metagaming, and mulliganing decisions), but they are aren't that much more powerful than certain prison or control strategies because of their vulnerabilities to strong disruption cards in the environment.

For instance, when I see something like this:

I think going forward the thought of playing gush + fact or fiction is just absolutely balls insane. At no point would I want someone to go land duress then land mox mox tap for two gush then fact.

Have you really thought this through? The play you are describing seems pretty terrible, since you will end your turn with no lands in play and you will likely discard 1-2 cards - hardly a bargain and potentially serious negative impact on your development. Gush really isn't that impressive as a pure draw spell, because it has a two turn delay, hampers development at little gain and is incapable of chaining early. Gush's strength lies in its combo potential, but aside from Fastbond, it doesn't actually constitute any engine in T1 - in storm combo then, apart from the Fastbond related kills, its strength in adding a storm count for free is offset by the weakness as a pure card drawer, so its flexibility is diminished.

I think its powerful, but not the monster some perceive it to be. I will try to break it like everyone else, but I don't think that we'll discover anything really that earth shattering.

That depends on your definition of "facts," considering that Flash hasn't been optimized, post FS Ichorid is two weeks old and Doomsday/Gush isn't legal for three weeks, the only "facts" I can provide come from the results of my play testing. Regardless, I think Flash is the fastest, most disruptive and consistent deck I've seen in Magic ever, Doomsday/Gush is almost as good as unrestricted Necropotence was and Ichorid just feels like its playing a completely different game. I don't think Mana Drain's are even playable with out Leylines of the Void, which makes the format pretty disgusting. I'm sure hate.dec can survive in the metagame, because hate.dec always does to an extent, but that doesn't change the fact that the environment is either skewed heavily away from Mana Drain or heavily toward Leyline of the Void.

I'm just one guy tho', so be your own judge.

[zulander]

If doomsday/ichorid/flash decks are struggling in six months expect to see the key cards on the restricted list. I think many of us give WotC too much credit in believing that they actually study the format. I believed as many did that Gifts should have been restricted a while back. I think it along side fact are finally on the correct list. I do disagree with the discussion of unrestricting desire. It is simply absurd as a four of, I think we don't recognize it's bustedness as a four of only because many use it as an "enabler" as opposed to a win condition right now.

[acidfreak]

So I have a proxy tourney the 1st of july and i was planning to play Gifts, so i'm left searching for a new deck. What do you guys think the post restriction/unrestriction top decks are going to be? From what I've read it'll be something like:

Dredge Return
Flash
Doomsday
Long

GAT
Fish

5c Stax

Will slaver still be viable? Are graveyard strategies too powerful? It seems that if you dont have four Leyline o/t Void you might as well not show up.

Out of these i'd probably play Gro-A-Tog, seems like the most fun deck to play  .

[redmage419]

Does this mean, for the first time since well maybe ever, that it is nigh indisputable that there is no top deck that runs Mana Drain?

Depending on your meta; Salvagers/Bomberman builds still run the 'Drain, and many feel that the deck is competative. It took the top 3 spots at the recent Myriad Games tourny on 5/26.

[Shock Wave]

I think Flash is the fastest, most disruptive and consistent deck I've seen in Magic ever, Doomsday/Gush is almost as good as unrestricted Necropotence was and Ichorid just feels like its playing a completely different game. I don't think Mana Drain's are even playable with out Leylines of the Void, which makes the format pretty disgusting. I'm sure hate.dec can survive in the metagame, because hate.dec always does to an extent, but that doesn't change the fact that the environment is either skewed heavily away from Mana Drain or heavily toward Leyline of the Void.

I agree with everything that has been stated above, and I really loathe Type 1 right now, for this reason:

We get a bunch more random brokennness at the expense of good decks that demand solid players.

Kowal really hit the nail on the head, in my opinion. Mind Twist, while no more "broken" than other powerful spells, adds an element of randomness to this format that we really do not need. Why increase the possibility of being able to randomly wreck your opponents hand on the opening turn? It's comparable to Trinisphere in the sense that it increases the odds of your opponent not being able to do anything before he even gets a chance to make a play. Flash is even more disgusting. The number of times I've been killed on Turn 1 by that combo really gives this game a blackjack feel. I do not like the direction this format is going in at all.

[Titanium Dragon]

LV is a free, uncounterable answer to an opponent's deck that turns the game's interaction into mulligian for LV and mulligan/draw/tutor into an answer for LV. Perhaps Ichorid and Flash are such unfair threats that they deserve an equally unfair answer, but there's a huge difference between a counterable 1xArtifact that was tutored for and an uncounterable 4xEnchantment that is mulliganed for. LV is almost as bad, if not worse, than Trinisphere was on the environment, it's just dependent on people using the best decks in the format instead of being innately unfair.

That's just silly. Linear decks are supposed to have the weakness that your opponent can have an answer that completely wrecks you. Ravager Affinity has that weakness, and the main reason it doesn't dominate extended is that there are several cards which absolutely wreck the deck and the deck can only run so many answers to them before weakening itself too much. The same goes for Ichorid; the deck has an absurdly powerful linear strategy that relies on your opponent not getting the "Oops, you lose" hoser card out; you can answer it, but it is very difficult. It is not a bad thing that those decks have that weakness; linear strategies are inherently strong but generally have the weakness of hosability.

I think Mind's Desire in a control shell is worse than Gifts Ungiven in a control shell, because while both cards end the game, Mind's Desire is a sorcery, 4UU, relies on revealing other Mind's Desires and/or Sins of the Past and can't be tutored for with Merchant Scroll or used as a set up card. Draining into it isn't that great either, because in order to be lethal it needs acceleration to generate storm, at which point you may be better off playing Combo Desire.

Have you ever -played- a desire deck? A 4-of desire deck doesn't need Sins in vintage, I don't think; you might run one, maybe, but the card quality in vintage is so high you're just going to win off Desire. In vintage you have much better accelleration and draw, and if you draw ten cards off your desire it doesn't matter that you didn't desire into desire; you can just cast another one. And in vintage, you're going to have the ability to do that.

Dream Halls is absolute trash. That's the absolute truth. Not sure how you can say otherwise. A deck built around the card is bound to consist of many dead cards, not to mention the heavy mana cost of Dream Halls. In addition to that, you have the heavy restriction of the cost of use. I'm not sure why you interpreted that statement as sarcasm.

Dream halls is extremely powerful as an engine card. The reality is that building a good Dream Halls deck doesn't rely on running bad cards; it relies on running good ones. I think you're thinking you'd need to run expensive cards, but other than Desire and Bargain, you're looking at halls, then probably diminishing returns, fof, and desire, then everything else is cheap. That's a pretty high curve, but if you build with it in mind you can certainly achieve it. The only real issue is getting the double blue, but a resolved Halls is going to be game.

[zeus-online]

Dream Halls is absolute trash. That's the absolute truth. Not sure how you can say otherwise. A deck built around the card is bound to consist of many dead cards, not to mention the heavy mana cost of Dream Halls. In addition to that, you have the heavy restriction of the cost of use. I'm not sure why you interpreted that statement as sarcasm.

Dream halls is extremely powerful as an engine card. The reality is that building a good Dream Halls deck doesn't rely on running bad cards; it relies on running good ones. I think you're thinking you'd need to run expensive cards, but other than Desire and Bargain, you're looking at halls, then probably diminishing returns, fof, and desire, then everything else is cheap. That's a pretty high curve, but if you build with it in mind you can certainly achieve it. The only real issue is getting the double blue, but a resolved Halls is going to be game.

Dream halls really is a crappy card in type1...
1) A deck based around dream halls will have to run some very bad cards in order to take full advantage over it.
2) The effect is symmetrical - Making all the opponents spells free aswell.
3) Dream halls is pitifully slow.
4) You're never going to resolve this thing. Ever.

There's a million cards out there which wins the game if they ever hit the board, yet most of them are not played because of a prohibited mana cost....Mind over matter, Future sight, Teferi are all good examples of such cards.

/Zeus

[Implacable]

Dream Halls is absolute trash. That's the absolute truth. Not sure how you can say otherwise. A deck built around the card is bound to consist of many dead cards, not to mention the heavy mana cost of Dream Halls. In addition to that, you have the heavy restriction of the cost of use. I'm not sure why you interpreted that statement as sarcasm.

Dream halls is extremely powerful as an engine card. The reality is that building a good Dream Halls deck doesn't rely on running bad cards; it relies on running good ones. I think you're thinking you'd need to run expensive cards, but other than Desire and Bargain, you're looking at halls, then probably diminishing returns, fof, and desire, then everything else is cheap. That's a pretty high curve, but if you build with it in mind you can certainly achieve it. The only real issue is getting the double blue, but a resolved Halls is going to be game.

Dream halls really is a crappy card in type1...
1) A deck based around dream halls will have to run some very bad cards in order to take full advantage over it.
2) The effect is symmetrical - Making all the opponents spells free aswell.
3) Dream halls is pitifully slow.
4) You're never going to resolve this thing. Ever.

There's a million cards out there which wins the game if they ever hit the board, yet most of them are not played because of a prohibited mana cost....Mind over matter, Future sight, Teferi are all good examples of such cards.

/Zeus

Each of the cards you just named costs at least 3 blue mana, and is thus uncastable until Turn 3, and therefore is too slow for this format.  I'm curious: has Mind's Desire proved to be bad because it takes  to cast?  That's clearly a facetious argument.  I'll address each of your points in order:

1) This is simply untrue.  A deck that runs Dream Halls will just be a Ritual-based combo deck with a couple of modifications.  You will tap 5 mana, cast Halls, turn a Ritual into a Grim Tutor, and another Ritual into a Will.  Alternatively, Ritual -> Tutor & Brainstorm -> Desire

2) So what?  You win the turn you play it.  It's not like anyone will build Dream Halls control.

3) Mind's Desire costs 6 mana.  Yawgmoth's Bargain costs 6 mana.  Dream Halls costs 5.  Their effects are comparable (they win the game).

4) Is resolving a Halls any harder than resolving any other high-CC bomb?  No.  Furthermore, it pitches to Force and MisD (if you have extraneous copies), and as a PitchLong player, I can attest to how important that is.

[Imsomniac101]

3) Mind's Desire costs 6 mana.  Yawgmoth's Bargain costs 6 mana.  Dream Halls costs 5.  Their effects are comparable (they win the game).

They're miles apart in terms of power. The 6 mana cards win the game by themselves when they hit, where as Dream Halls requires you to have the winning cards in hand.....translation: Dream Halls = 2 card combo. 2UUU is 10x harder than 4UU.

4) Is resolving a Halls any harder than resolving any other high-CC bomb?  No.  Furthermore, it pitches to Force and MisD (if you have extraneous copies), and as a PitchLong player, I can attest to how important that is.

If you had enough mana to cast Halls, then why didn't you play the high cc bomb you were playing via Halls instead of the crappy enchantment in the first place?

[yespuhyren]

I don't think Mana Drain's are even playable with out Leylines of the Void, which makes the format pretty disgusting

Why, exactly?  As a shop player, I've always been dealing with the pain in the ass that is Mana Drain.  Shops have pretty much been left to die to the players moving to the overly broken power of drains and gifts.  If the metagame shifts away from Drains and makes shops better, then all I can say is awesome.  Everyone said i was being ridiculous when I was complaining that drains were so good shops were rapidly dying and people were saying shops might not even be playable, along with stax being almost dead due to warrens.  If the tables turn and shops become more playable than drains its party time!

[Zarathustra]

I make a prediction: In 3-4 months time, when the metagame has settled a little, I think that all the people who have cheered for Gifts late and oddly timed restriction, will be the same ones complaining about Dredge Return, Flash, and Doomsday.

And honestly, Gifts is the deck that holds Flash(I hate this deck) in check and can still give decks like Doomsday a run for its money.

I also find it a bit odd that Gifts Ungiven is far too powerful for Vintage, yet they unrestrict a free card that pretty much dominated Vintage for MONTHS...  Gifts never had the same domination as GAT did in it's hay day.

-DShell

[Stamford]

I make a prediction: In 3-4 months time, when the metagame has settled a little, I think that all the people who have cheered for Gifts late and oddly timed restriction, will be the same ones complaining about Dredge Return, Flash, and Doomsday.

And honestly, Gifts is the deck that holds Flash(I hate this deck) in check and can still give decks like Doomsday a run for its money.

I also find it a bit odd that Gifts Ungiven is far too powerful for Vintage, yet they unrestrict a free card that pretty much dominated Vintage for MONTHS...  Gifts never had the same domination as GAT did in it's hay day.

-DShell

Couldn't be more true. My sentiments exactly.

Flash removes interactivity.
At least the player playing with Gifts have to think sbout the possible card choices and make the correct choices.
At least the player with Long have to think of the decision tree options and try to combo around all the different disruption stopping its way.

However, what thinking do you need to do with Flash?
All you need to do is, find a way to put your combo pieces which you dont want to draw into your library, try to get Flash and Hulk in hand by whatever means, then play Flash and win. If you have one of those combo pieces in hand, just Body Snatcher it away.

Thats it. Together with all the possible accelerants in Vintage, this is accomplised so easily.
Any hate is stifled by the possible 12 disruption cards it runs. (Force of Will, Daze, Duress, Pact of Negation)
Any combo piece can be found using any topdeck tutor.
Its landbase is so simple. Its 80% Wasteland Durable.
Pesky permanents in its way? Just tutor for a bounce.

List of tutors flash uses ( 4 Merchant Scroll, the three topdeck tutors, Summoner's Pact, DT)

How fair is that?
Flash removes interactivity. Why shouldnt it be restricted?

[mistervader]

Doomsday will find a home for multiple Gushes, but does it really need to spread tri-color for it to actually end up being good? Does it even need to run four? I was thinking it would be just as fine if you instead ran, oh, maybe just two or three.

Now, I know I've been one of the longest-standing advocates for Quicken in Doomsday, but I think that at this juncture, every single slot I have set aside in my deck for Quicken could almost safely turn over into Gush instead. With minor changes in the deck based purely on just a 1-for-1 substitute I make for my current deck, here's how I think my deck would end up looking like:

The Mana: 24
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

Setting Up And Protecting The Combo: 19

4 DOOMSDAY (Well, duh.)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force Of Will
3 Pact Of Negation
3 Misdirection
1 Echoing Truth

Cards That Fetch Cards That Win: 12
3 Street Wraith
3 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Research/Development

Cards That Win: 4
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Timetwister
1 Mind’s Desire

Finishers: 1
1 Tendrils Of Agony

This is considering that the decklist I just submitted for your perusal is still untuned and doesn't optimize Fastbond, but already, you now have SIX ways of drawing into your Doomsday stack whilst investing ZERO mana. I haven't forced it to have four of both Wraiths and Gushes, but as you can see, there's a lot of merit to how powerful Doomsday can be, all without even turning to Fastbond just yet.

I'd love to see someone tune Doomsday some more, but with the unrestriction of Gush, I almost certainly have to say buh-bye to my pet card, Quicken. Quicken+Doomsday EOT was fun and all, but Gushing into your Doomsday stack on turn 2, which is majority of when Doomsday combos do get pulled off makes a lot of sense.

A common Gush stack, assuming your opponent is unprotected: Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, Yawgmoth's Will, Tendrils.

The main reason I avoid using LED is I use a pitch protection base of FOW and MisD, not to mention Pact of Negation, but if you wanna go the discard route, it works out all the same.

Anyways, whether or not it breaks the format wide open, I am all for the unrestriction of Gush. If it gets too out of hand, it can get restricted again, but for now, let the people have their cake and see if it's really as tasty as it appears to be.

[Razvan]

Why, exactly?  As a shop player, I've always been dealing with the pain in the ass that is Mana Drain.  Shops have pretty much been left to die to the players moving to the overly broken power of drains and gifts.  If the metagame shifts away from Drains and makes shops better, then all I can say is awesome.  Everyone said i was being ridiculous when I was complaining that drains were so good shops were rapidly dying and people were saying shops might not even be playable, along with stax being almost dead due to warrens.  If the tables turn and shops become more playable than drains its party time!

shops will become FAR less playable, at least in your case. decks that play no spells to win, or decks that have 1U: win the game, pretty much means the end of the boa-constrictor type stax decks. pretty much the only hope you might have is a turn 1 trinisphere or tormod's crypt against flash, and hope they cannot deal with the crypt (unlikely, especially game 2). ichorid is hurt by crypt or so, but they can fight it, especially with that new 2/2 making graveyard card (wtf is the name again?).

gifts was, for now, the last recourse for mana drain players. i am not sayin there will not be another mana drain deck coming from the ashes, but i seriously doubt it.

as arend says: the metagame is not all flash. there's also some ichorid.

and what rich said is pretty much GG.

[o uncola o]

3) Mind's Desire costs 6 mana.  Yawgmoth's Bargain costs 6 mana.  Dream Halls costs 5.  Their effects are comparable (they win the game).

They're miles apart in terms of power. The 6 mana cards win the game by themselves when they hit, where as Dream Halls requires you to have the winning cards in hand.....translation: Dream Halls = 2 card combo. 2UUU is 10x harder than 4UU.

I agree that it is harder to come up with 2UUU than 4UU.  However, none of the cards being discussed have a 2UUU casting cost. 

[Zherbus]

When a moderator declares something off-topic or even borderline spam, you STOP posting about it. When you are warned for an infraction, you show some respect for the site rules and quit doing what you're warned for. This thread has resulted in a ban.