[Deck Discussion] 4-Gush GroATog

[zulander]

Sideboard I'd imagine a set of either leyline/crypt.  3 Pernicious Deed, 1 Hurkyl/rebuild, 1 Chain of vapor, 2 Krosan Grip I don't know what else would go in the last 4 slots. 

you bring in leyline/crypt for gy hate(duh) deed for fish, hurkyl/rebuild for random stax/slaver decks, chain/krosan grip for stax/oath (is that even played anymore?)

[islanderboi10]

ELD's GAT list strikes me intrested.

Here is his top 4 list:

GAT

// Lands
    1  Library of Alexandria
    4  Tropical Island
    4  Underground Sea
    2  Flooded Strand
    2  Polluted Delta
    1  Strip Mine

// Creatures
    4  Quirion Dryad
    3  Street Wraith
    1  Psychatog

// Spells
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Emerald
    3  Misdirection
    4  Force of Will
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Time Walk
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Fastbond
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    4  Merchant Scroll
    1  Regrowth
    4  Gush
    4  Duress
    1  Imperial Seal
    1  Echoing Truth
    1  Cunning Wish

SB

3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
3 Energy Flux
2 Massacre
1 Stifle
1 Berserk
1 Hurkly's Recall


Do you think this is correct? With the Street Wraiths and everything?

[zulander]

I don't like running only 1 tog. And I also think berserk should be in the main, instead of wishing for it. On the street wraith you run into the problem many tog decks did when tog was in type 2. You're focusing so much on card draw as opposed to using draw to get your threats. You'll eventually just end up drawing into draw as opposed to threats that win you the game. Just my $0.02

[Zherbus]

Historically, it's never paid off for GAT to run Berserk in the maindeck. It's a potentially dead draw and ELD was smart to keep it in the board. I also think that 1 Tog is fine, since it doesn't have the same impact it had years ago. I really like the Street Wraiths in here because of the interaction with the top-o-the-deck tutors, which means faster Fastbond or Tog if that's what you need. I think this build is a lot closer to ideal than what's been discussed publicly so far.

[Illissius]

There really is no other creature that swings for 10+ for 3 mana...

Tinker. But you don't have many artifacts, and would have to run DSC. Doubt it's worth it.

Tendrils of Agony for 4 mana. I think it deserves a spot.

Win more. If you have four mana left after playing multiple spells, you have Fastbond, and have won the game. Tendrils is useless in any other situation.

EDIT -- I also support the Wraith idea, and wanted to include it as soon as I heard the deck would be legal again. You always have trouble filling the last 3-5 slots, which often end up being chaff like extra cantrips or vanilla Counterspells, so Wraith fits perfectly here. The interaction with Tutors is gravy.

I have two versions I'm tinkering with at the moment; one of them is a mostly traditional GAT build with Wraiths and five restricted tutors (including Consult), which is not far off from ELD's (let's see: -1 Scroll -1 Regrowth -1 Wish -1 Library (SB) -1 Strip -3 Duals +1 Tog +1 Wraith +1 Misdirection +1 Consult +4 Fetches), though many of these choices are obviously pretty malleable. The other isn't really GAT; it's straight UB possibly splashing for Fastbond, with a slower, more disruption oriented approach, and Confidants in place of Dryads. (Obviously, Wraith and Misdirection are omitted here).

[diopter]

There really is no other creature that swings for 10+ for 3 mana...

Tinker. But you don't have many artifacts, and would have to run DSC. Doubt it's worth it.

Tendrils of Agony for 4 mana. I think it deserves a spot.

Win more. If you have four mana left after playing multiple spells, you have Fastbond, and have won the game. Tendrils is useless in any other situation.

It wins more, but it also wins now. I think that Tog is win-more also, without the capability of stealing games that Tendrils does.

I do think that it is an awkward choice in that the deck is not really set up to generate Storm. However Tog seems like it will generally not have an impact even though it is a better fit.

[Dxfiler]

ELD's list is about as good as it gets for this deck.  He has ample card-draw and tutor power to get what he wants when he wants it.  I think 3 MISD's might be too many and would consider a 4th street wraith or 2nd tog, but that's really the only change I could see to the maindeck.

Beserk in the board makes sense.  It'll be dead alot in the maindeck and there are scenarios where you just don't want it in your hand.

I think his sideboard needs work but the deck is brand new again so that's understandable that he only used 3-4 cards out of it.

I would think leylines in the board are worth it for this deck.  Jailer and crypt are good but don't just flat out stop ichorid like leyline does, and this deck can protect its leyline better than most.

Overall I believe ELD's list is the correct way to go with this deck give or take a card.  There are other ways to build gat but this route seems to harness the most power.  For those interested in the deck I think his list is a fine place to start.  Play it while you can.

- Dave Feinstein

[Smmenen]

 I came to many of the same design conclusions that ELD did and I agree that that is the design place to go with the deck.   The biggest changes in my view from 2003 is that you run 4 Duress and 4 Merchant Scroll and no UU spells.   Towards the end of the original GAT era, many of us were running 3 Duress.   My list from Feb. 2003 didn't have Duress, but by late June I was running them.   

I think the key place that I disasgree with ELD is that I really think you want the red splash for the mirror and for artifact mutation.   

[zulander]

In some of my limited testing I have to agree with berserk in the board, however I have almost always wanted that second wish, I just don't know whether to take out echoing truth or run three scrolls and two wishes.

[Xman]

Why do people generally consider Regrowth to generally be such a house in GAT.  Every time I have had it in my hand, I generally find myself shuffling it to the back of my hand.  Or wishing I had any other card, like, a blue card to pictch or a drawing card.  I almost never use it, so I was just curious.

As for other parts of GAT, why do you guys not want to include something like Drain.  Yes, UU can sometimes be a pain to get (not often though) and I feel that in the current environment more control would be better than less control.  It would give it a better chance to stand up to the plethora of different, yet strong combo decks.  I am not saying grab 4 drians & include 4 drains with this deck, but 2 possibly.  Get more toward 15 control pieces & it will definatly help the deck in a format where it is increasingly more likely you will not see a turn 2.

[alvin6688]

I spent a few hours testing over the weekend, and have independently come to the same conclusions as ELD, Dxfiler, and Steve:

1) One Tog is enough; there's no such thing as Sligh or Sui-black to deal with anymore, so we don't need as many creatures. Vs. Flash and Long, Tog is nearly irrelevant as we are the control deck and the longer the game goes, the better off we are (we run more draw). 4 Dryads are more than enough.

2) Sideboard Beserk. Again, there's not as big a need to trample over blockers. Maindecking Berserk is moronic when we only run 1 Tog.

3) 4 Duress, 4 Merchant Scroll.

4) Maindeck Echoing Truth. It's necessary against Chalice-1 and Bridge tokens.

However, and perhaps more importantly, I've also reached some conclusions that are different. First, I tested Street Wraith and hated it. In that slot I much prefer Sleight of Hand because it's blue. This is unbelievably important. I run 4 FoW and 4 Misdirection. With 8 slots taken up by Dryads and Duress, along with other necessary non-blue cards like Will, Tutors, and Fastbond, you need to squeeze in as many blue cards as mathematically possible with the rest of the deck space. Street Wraith's non-blue-ness cost me a number of games against Flash, which runs an insane disruption package (4 FoW, 4 Pact, 3 MisD, and 4 Merchant Scrolls to make it seem like even more). If you want a chance in hell of winning a counter war against them, you need blue cards.

Also, I don't run Regrowth. I had 61 cards, and it was the first one to go. Xman hits the spot about Regrowth. In all my testing, it has pretty much sucked. Mana Drain, on the other hand, is strong against Flash and Stax, which are the two decks I'm focusing on (one because it's arguably the best deck in the format, and the other because it's our weakness). In both matchups, I'd much rather keep UU open for Drain than cast a Dryad.

MAINDECK:
4 Quirion Dryad
1 Psychatog

4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Gush
2 Sleight of Hand
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Echoing Truth
1 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fastbond

4 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
2 Mana Drain

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby

2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Island

SIDEBOARD:
3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
3 Artifact Mutation
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Berserk
1 Naturalize

By the way, the Yixlid + Crypt is MUCH better than Leyline in our deck because Leyline can't take advantage of all our draw and tutoring. As for red splash or no, I touched on this in my last post, but in the end it comes down to: Against Stax, how good much better is Artifact Mutation than Energy Flux?

[Wildthing]

1) One Tog is enough; there's no such thing as Sligh or Sui-black to deal with anymore, so we don't need as many creatures. Vs. Flash and Long, Tog is nearly irrelevant as we are the control deck and the longer the game goes, the better off we are (we run more draw). 4 Dryads are more than enough.

I can't see the point in not running more togs. If tog is obsolete then dryad is even more, at least tog is pitchable against those combo decks you are talking about besides, it is good against stax because it kills faster. What advanteges has dryad over tog, in what matchups are they better?

[Purple Hat]

1) One Tog is enough; there's no such thing as Sligh or Sui-black to deal with anymore, so we don't need as many creatures. Vs. Flash and Long, Tog is nearly irrelevant as we are the control deck and the longer the game goes, the better off we are (we run more draw). 4 Dryads are more than enough.

I can't see the point in not running more togs. If tog is obsolete then dryad is even more, at least tog is pitchable against those combo decks you are talking about besides, it is good against stax because it kills faster. What advanteges has dryad over tog, in what matchups are they better?

tog is better when you're eventually ready to win, but against stax, for example, if you get an early dryad and cast one spell each turn it's a 6 turn clock, if you manage to cast more than 1 spell each turn it only gets better.  tog is better at ending the game late while dryad is better at pressuring your opponent.  honestly if you're going off either one is good enough.  if you start to combo out dryad is gonna get so big that the difference between it and a tog is going to be completely marginal.

[zeus-online]

So what is the general opinion on the cantrips...i see 4 viable 1-mana cantrips (I excluded brainstorm, since its a no-brainer)
1) Street wraith - It's Free! helps with the topdeck tutors, but dosn't grow anything...Can be hardcast against fish (IF you can get the mana..)
2) Sleight of hand - The old favorite, gets the job done but isn't exactly spectacular.
3) Opt - Instant! which might matter if you're playing with drains and wish's...Although i think instant is a marginal improvement in a deck which taps out just about every turn.
4) Serum visions - Probably worse then sleight of hand, since the Scry dosn't help you until next turn (Unless you got an additional drawer in hand)

/Zeus

[Stamford]

I think Serum Visions is the nest choice of all.

If you see 2 cards you want, you can keep. If not, just ditch them. Its card filter ability is better in my opinion.

[acidfreak]

The fact that you have to draw your card before you can scry and that it is not instant makes serum visons not-so-good imo. Opt always seems better.

[silvernail]

I'd probably not run the red splash unless I knew there would be multiple stax in the field, but thats just me.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Historically, it's never paid off for GAT to run Berserk in the maindeck

I don't think this is black and white.  I see a number of reasons for running it MD:

-At least in the NE metagame, there are lots of blockers that Berserk can mitigate.  Often times, these are in matches where you may not be able to wait for attrition: salvagers, ichorid, shops.

-Given the speed of the format (especially compared with when it was legal previously) the extra turn helps against fast decks, and the surprise helps against control oriented decks

-GAT cheats as much as possible on cost.  Not having to wish for it when you need it will allow more lines of play with the other tutors in the deck.

-It can kill opposing creatures.  The one that most comes to mind is Aven Mindcensor, but bob's, mages, even errant welder beats could be useful targets if you're not ready to pump dryad.

Given all of this, the deck is extremely tight, and there are lots of situations where it doesn't find a target.  I just don't think it should be dismissed out of hand.

2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Volcanic Island
3 Artifact Mutation

I don't think this will work as you intend.  Either you won't be able to find the volc, or it's likely to get wasted before you can use it.  Smennen's right that the red splash is extremely powerful, but any deck who's manabase is stretched too thin will collapse on itself.  Stax and Fish are both better at mana denial than they were during GAT's previous run.

[zulander]

One thing I've toyed with is running brainfreeze in the board. In testing 5 matches so far I've won 4 games from just going insane with gush, will, scroll and topping it off with wish for brainfreeze. Gush is insane in this deck, I LOVE IT!

[Ultima]

The topic of whether the Red was needed or not was always a meta-dependant thing.  I suppose if you have the average 11-12 disruption spells and don't expect stax, UBG is superior.  Stax, I think was always the one deck that warranted red mirror aside. 

As to what's been said, IMO, which is soley based on past experience and not really with 4 gushs, berserk I think is a sideboard thing.  While most believe the same, I offer no arguments to the other side.  I do think that in theory street wraith doesn't seem as good as sleight or opt especially if you tapping out and not caring about drain or counterspell.   

I think the number one thing that most people don't really see at first glance is putting together the right manabase.  Now in three colors its easier, but Steve M ran very few sources back in the day for more spells and more creatures.  Today, with speed and prison being there in its evolved form, you don't have time to say "I just need this topdeck to be a land."  Therefore, a refined manabase is crucial.  Further, this is even more of a complicated issue if you go the red route and creatures these days aren't as abundant as before.  Remember the last builds of GAT before were ending in 4 Tog and 4 Dryad.

Were I to play 3 color,  I'd start with

5 Fetch
2 Island
4 Sea
4 Tropical
5 Moxen
1 Lotus

4 Color, I'd start with

5 Fetch
4 Sea
4 Tropical
2 Volcanic
1 Island
5 Moxen
1 Lotus

After that it goes to meta and utility issues.

My thoughts.

Ultima

[alvin6688]

21-22 mana bases? I don't think that's necessary with Gush back. 18 is probably on the light side, though it really depends on how many cantrips you run. I'd say 19 is the right number, and 20 is max. I agree with ELD that you don't need the full Mox set. For UBG, Sapphire, Jet, and Emerald are enough. The other two should just be more spells. It's not like we're accelerating into anything with this deck.

I love LoA, but I actually don't think it's an absolute must. To me, any non-Dryad card that doesn't have an immediate effect is cuttable just for that reason. I'm not saying is should be cut, but it's not an auto-inclusion either. In fact, Strip Mine might be a better choice just because tutor --> Strip Mine could be huge against Friggorid or Stax if you hit a Bazaar or Worshop.

3 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 LoA/Strip
5 Fetch
4 Sea
3 Tropical
2 Island

or

4 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 LoA/Strip
5 Fetch
4 Sea
3 Tropical
1 Volcanic
1 Island

Question: From a Stax player's point of view, exactly how harmful is Energy Flux? I don't see that much Stax in my area, and I've never actually played Stax enough to run into Energy Flux in a tournament. Is it really bad for the deck? Is it easily played around? Does it stick? It seems from my limited perspective that Energy Flux would be back-breaking, and that for this reason red would not seem necessary, but I'd like a more informed opinion.

[Smmenen]

Well, I tried.   I tried to be patient.   

I really wanted to wait until Monday, in my article next week, to unveil this. 

But I just couldn't wait!  Many of you know how I am - I love this deck and I love Vintage, so not sharing this for even 7 more days would be maddening.

I've put a good deal of testing and thought into this and I'm very proud to present what I think will be the starting model for GAT in 2007.   ELD came to many of the same conclusions that I did.   My article next week provides a card by card analysis, so I'll just direct most of the questions until then. 

GroAtog, Stephen Menendian, June, 2007

4 Quirion Dryad
1 Psychatog
3 Street Wraith
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
4 Duress
4 Gush
4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fastbond
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Regrowth
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Strip Mine/ Island (Haven't settled on this yet)
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus

Sideboard:

  1 Berserk
  1 Rack and Ruin
  1 Hurkyl's Recall
  1 Echoing Truth
  1 Red Elemental Blast
  1 Pyroblast
  2 Submerge
  2 Artifact Mutation
  3 Yixlid Jailer
  2 Tormod’s Crypt

Pay particular attention to my sideboard, which is tuned.

Since I discuss most of the card choices in detail in my article next week, I'll only address two mana issues here.   Note that there is no Mox Pearl.    Mana Crypt is better than Mox Pearl in this deck.   It enables some of the most outrageously amazing turn two plays.   Lotus Petal is even more important post-board, which is part of the reason its here.  Turn one Dryad + Duress is also a play enabled by Petal.   Petal also helps turn one REB and Duress, post board.   I have 21 mana sources and still plenty of gas.   

[zulander]

How is it astonishing that he came up with almost the same decklist you did? Please pardon me if I'm wrong but it sounds almost as if you're surprised he came up with a good decklist, and to me it sounded a little condescending. If I'm completely wrong I'm sorry, just an observation. And for the list it seems that the most major changes not including the red splash would be the lack of imperial seal and the third misD. I agree that imp seal isn't strong in this deck but only 2 misD seems a bit low. However there are 8 draw spells and four scrolls so I can understand this position.

[Whatever Works]

@ Steve - Why only 3 Street Wraith? I have yet to hear a good reason for a type 1 deck to not run 4 street wraith. Is it because you couldn't find a card to cut without messing up ratio's so you decided to just cut a Wraith?

[Smmenen]

How is it astonishing that he came up with almost the same decklist you did? Please pardon me if I'm wrong but it sounds almost as if you're surprised he came up with a good decklist, and to me it sounded a little condescending.  If I'm completely wrong I'm sorry, just an observation.

Apology accepted

And for the list it seems that the most major changes not including the red splash would be the lack of imperial seal and the third misD. I agree that imp seal isn't strong in this deck but only 2 misD seems a bit low. However there are 8 draw spells and four scrolls so I can understand this position.

ELD ran a maindeck bounce spell.    Although spending only 4 mana to remove ETW tokens is a good thing, I don't think it is worth the spot, at least not right now.   GAT has the ability to combo out quickly enough that it shoudn't be that problematic.  And the other half of the time, Duress can preemptively address ETW or at least spot it so that your FOW can cut it off. 

Re: Imperial Seal: my problem isn't the objective power of the card, but the fact that more so for this deck than most, being able to play the tutors on the upkeep is very important, despite having Wraith and Gushes. 

Re: Misdirection.   The number of Misdirections have historically fluctuated greatly.   Very early GAT lists ran 4 Misd.  When Stax emerged in the Dulmen in March/April of 2003 (can't remember which month it was now), the reaction was to switch to GATr and Roland Bode and others cut way back to 1 Misdirection.    Note that those lists ran no Duress.    Given that we have 4 Duress, 2 Misdirections is sufficient and probably too many in some metagames.   

Note: I also run Submerge as well, for the Mirror. 

[Chill79]

I would consider using Tarmogoyf in place of Quirion Dryad.How fast does the Dryad grow vs Tarmogoyf getting it bonus immediately??

[tomjoad]

I assume it's been looked at, if not extensively tested, but is Street Wraith really better than Confidant? In my limited testing, Confidant was quite good, and certainly better than Tog in about 90% of situations.

[Nydaeli]

Tarmogoyf:  I think you play too much Legacy  With Dryad, you can pretty much win on the spot once you resolve Fastbond, and it will get pretty huge with a couple of Gushes anyway.  Tarmogoyf won't really get bigger than 4/5.  Dryad allows for the much stronger combo finish.

Confidant:  In my goldfishing, I found Confidant to be quite painful.  With 4 FoW and 4 Gush, that's already 8 cards you really don't want to flip, and nearly all lists will run at least 2 Misdirection.  So even though the curve of the deck is very low, the "free" spells are going to hurt you a lot.

[Purple Hat]

I assume it's been looked at, if not extensively tested, but is Street Wraith really better than Confidant? In my limited testing, Confidant was quite good, and certainly better than Tog in about 90% of situations.

the problem is that you're playing like 12 or 13 cards with CMC 5 depending on the build and like 3 or 4 with CMC 3.  also going off with gush can be pretty life intensive at times.  remember that fetching with fastbond out costs 2 life if the fetch was your first land of the turn and 3 if it was your second or later.  that shouldnt' be ignored.

Steve, why no fire/ice?  seems like it would be a good card for the red splash vs fish, anything with welders, trinisphere, the mirror if you get it early, not bad vs flash since killing a creature at the right time can screw up their combo and also not bad at holding off the ravening hordes of ichorids or the 1 empty token that was held back as a blocker.  also it cantrips and pitches to force of will.

[Korhil]

remember that fetching with fastbond out costs 2 life if the fetch was your first land of the turn and 3 if it was your second or later.

This is incorrect.
You are putting the land into play, hence Fastbond doesn't trigger.

---Korhil