[Deck Discussion] 4-Gush GroATog

[acidfreak]

Let's say you draw an opening hand of Umox, Bmox, tropical, merchant scroll, FoW, street wraith, gush.

How would you play this? Merchant scroll for ancestral, or start the tutoring chain for fastbond?

[zeus-online]

I still believe that imperial seal is an auto-include in this deck.
Is 1 volcanic really enough to support the SB? Will have to test this..

@Smmenen:
Are you sure that your current anti-artifact suite is the optimal one? I can definetly see reason for using ancient grudge and/or Oxidize over Artifact mutation and rack and ruin.
Another thing, while submerge might the best option in the mirror, wouldn't it be better to run smother as it doubles as removal in the fish match-up?

/Zeus

[Purple Hat]

bah, they updated the wording on fastbond in oracle since the last time I played this deck.  it used to be that way.  if you dont' believe me check out steve's article.

[Mr. Nightmare]

Has anyone been considering Vinelasher Kudzu over Dryad, or at least to suppliment Dryad in this deck?  I've done some preliminary testing, and both are pretty ridiculous.

[alvin6688]

Steve, how are your deck's matchups against Flash? I tested against a version with 4 FoW, 4 Pact, 3 MisD, and it was hard to beat them even with full sets of my own FOWs, Misdirections, and Duresses. I don't think it wise to go under 3 Misdirection in this metagame, because Stax just isn't that heavily played, whereas I see Flash being perhaps THE combo deck to beat.

I still disagree with Street Wraith, though perhaps it's because I run more pitch counters than you. Looking forward to your article .

[cosineme]

Has anyone been considering Vinelasher Kudzu over Dryad, or at least to suppliment Dryad in this deck?  I've done some preliminary testing, and both are pretty ridiculous.

you probably also happen to draw fastbond every game too huh?

so ridiculous. this isn't legacy or extended...

Points can be made without resorting to hostility and flame-baiting.  Verbal warning for violation of Rule 2, Inflammatory Posting and Rule 4, Lack of Content.  -DA

[Smmenen]

@ Zeus-online:

Of course I’m not sure that my anti-artifact suite is the correct one.   I can only make reasonable guesses based upon testing results and format knowledge without having piloted this at an actual tournament.   To be honest, I had not considered Ancient Grudge.  You are right, it is probably worth including and possibly superior to Rack and Ruin.   I will test it out and change my board if it tests well. 

Re: Flash.   I imagine that Flash will be quite difficult, but can be slowed through aggressive use of Merchant Scroll for countermagic and Brainstorming for Duress.   Winning the Flash match is going to be a test of role.   You must play the control role and adopt it well.   Tormod’s Crypt and Red Elemental Blast will help post board.   

Re: Street Wraith.   I wish I had a full understanding of how Street Wraith operates in Vintage.   Although I’ve played with it quite a bit now in many decks, I still don’t have a full grasp of the costs and benefits incurred through running them.  Ichorid and Doomsday don't really tell you much about the cost of Street Wraith in a deck like this.  This is something that will come to me in time.   What I can tell you is that life does matter for this deck.   You will be using Fastbond in many games.  I’d like to run 4 Street Wraith, simply for thinning effect (this is a “gro” deck after all), but there are space limitations that I’ve run into it.  I really want a 2nd Tog, to be honest, and I don’t have room for that either.   

[Xman]

Re: Street Wraith.   I wish I had a full understanding of how Street Wraith operates in Vintage.   Although I’ve played with it quite a bit now in many decks, I still don’t have a full grasp of the costs and benefits incurred through running them.  Ichorid and Doomsday don't really tell you much about the cost of Street Wraith in a deck like this.  This is something that will come to me in time.   What I can tell you is that life does matter for this deck.   You will be using Fastbond in many games.  I’d like to run 4 Street Wraith, simply for thinning effect (this is a “gro” deck after all), but there are space limitations that I’ve run into it.  I really want a 2nd Tog, to be honest, and I don’t have room for that either.   

concerning Street Wraith.  I have been testing a lot of GAT lately, and any time I get into a serious game with it, my life takes a pretty good hit from any number of sources (Force of Will, Fastbond, Vamp Tutor, Imperial Seal, the other player actually swinging with a creature, etc) and have found that life is just spent a little to freely with Street Wraith in the deck.  By the time I am usually able to win a game (without Wraith) I am usually down to 10 life or less.  That is from a combination of the control & the tutors that you use to either (a) get your combo) or (b) protect your dryads & togs.

I think Wraiths can be included & should be included considering you can run it with the Topdeck Tutors effeciaently.  But with the inclusion of Street Wraith, you do have ot watch yoru life closely.  It can easily be eaten up.

As for other solutions, I remember form playing tog & slaver years ago that I always wanted artifact removal in the board of different casting costs just for Chalice.  Most lists have 2 or 3 different removal spells, but they all cost 2 (generally).  Which means a Chalice for 2 Can completely hose you more than a Chalice for 1 can in this deck.  for an Anti-artifact suite, I would actually recommend (between maindeck & board) Oxidize, Echoing Truth, & a rebuild.  If you face a lot of artifacts & enchanments, then throw in a naturalize to go with it.

On a Side Note, does Ground Seal have any effect vs. Ichorid?  If it does, it might be worth Sideboarding in GAT.  It wrecked havoc in local torunaments when I pulled them out on Welder & Dragon (both old, I know.  I have been out for a couple years, getting back in.)

[Nydaeli]

Has Storm Entity been considered for GATr?  Granted, it's probably trash, but...it's a Dryad with haste that can be dropped after you combo out.  The main problem with it is that it's less flexible than Dryad - you can't beat with a Grizzly Bear for a few turns and then pump it up incidentally.  So it would push the deck in a more combo-esque direction, which is probably not a bad thing considering that Gush Tendrils is a good deck.

[Xman]

Has Storm Entity been considered for GATr?

The main difference between Dryad & Storm Entity is Storm Entity stops growing after 1 turn.  Dryad keeps growing thorught the entire game.  Means on turnit might not be very big, but it grows up fast.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Re: Street Wraith.   I wish I had a full understanding of how Street Wraith operates in Vintage.   Although I’ve played with it quite a bit now in many decks, I still don’t have a full grasp of the costs and benefits incurred through running them.  Ichorid and Doomsday don't really tell you much about the cost of Street Wraith in a deck like this.  This is something that will come to me in time.   What I can tell you is that life does matter for this deck.   You will be using Fastbond in many games.  I’d like to run 4 Street Wraith, simply for thinning effect (this is a “gro” deck after all), but there are space limitations that I’ve run into it.  I really want a 2nd Tog, to be honest, and I don’t have room for that either.   

concerning Street Wraith.  I have been testing a lot of GAT lately, and any time I get into a serious game with it, my life takes a pretty good hit from any number of sources (Force of Will, Fastbond, Vamp Tutor, Imperial Seal, the other player actually swinging with a creature, etc) and have found that life is just spent a little to freely with Street Wraith in the deck.  By the time I am usually able to win a game (without Wraith) I am usually down to 10 life or less.  That is from a combination of the control & the tutors that you use to either (a) get your combo) or (b) protect your dryads & togs.

I think Wraiths can be included & should be included considering you can run it with the Topdeck Tutors effeciaently.  But with the inclusion of Street Wraith, you do have ot watch yoru life closely.  It can easily be eaten up.

On a Side Note, does Ground Seal have any effect vs. Ichorid?  If it does, it might be worth Sideboarding in GAT.  It wrecked havoc in local torunaments when I pulled them out on Welder & Dragon (both old, I know.  I have been out for a couple years, getting back in.)

1) I agree with you on the life loss issue.  Between Fetches, Forces, Fastbond, and incidental life loss, it does add up.  And while this is clearly the type of deck that wants Street Wraith, it's not quite true that it's free; you don't want to give your opponent a chance to kill you with 7 spells instead of 10.  However, the more SW's are played, the stronger MT, VT, and IS become, and this is something I've been finding is extremely useful in testing.  I'm torn, but I'm almost certain 4 is too many.  Besides, as Smennen says, there are real spells that could take those slots and aren't finding the room for it.

2) Ground Seal affects exactly 1 card in Ichorid: Dread Return.  Everything else works just fine.  Horrible.

[Purple Hat]

doesn't ground seal work well against flash though?  I think the combo requires them to return target creature from the graveyard to play if I'm not wrong on the wording again, in which case a cantriping turn 1 answer to their combo seems pretty good.

[Smmenen]

Only if they aren't using the Disciple kill.   Ground Seal also doesn't stop Rector Flash.


I used 2 Ground Seal in my X-Men Flash SB at GP Columbus for other Flash decks.   

[Skadrian]

it also stops dread return, wouldnt that be even more reason to play them, or doesnt that harm ichorid enough?

[Implacable]

Only if they aren't using the Disciple kill.

I've not yet seen a Vintage Flash deck with the Disciple kill.  There are two reasons for this:

1) Even more so than in Legacy, deck-space is at a premium.  You need to fit in the broken restricted tutors and more disruption, and that demands that you cut your combo down to the minimum amount of cards.

2) Leyline of the Void is currently in vogue in a big way.  That means that it doesn't matter if you use the Disciple or the Kiki kill; Leyline wrecks both.  Flash decks aren't worried about losing counterwars over mid-combo breakers like Chain of Vapor or Swords; they're worried about proactive disruption like Leyline.

[Purple Hat]

it also stops dread return, wouldnt that be even more reason to play them, or doesnt that harm ichorid enough?

I'd much rather play a package similar to ELD's for ichorid.  the combination of jailers, crypts and needles does way more than ground seal ever could and you most certainly don't want to board in more than 5-7 cards.  it's also redundant.

[Bob The Builder]

Is 1 volcanic really enough to support the SB? Will have to test this..

Did you came to test the amount of Volcanic's yet?  If yes, what where your findings?

The reason I ask this is simple: I'm a big fan of FLING in GAT, most of you will say it's a win-more card that's sitting dead in your hand at the wrong time and therefore not done; but one could say the same about berserk...
IMHO Fling makes winning easier to do, you don't have to build up a big massive creature and swing with it every time, you can grow your creature, swing (maybe even berserk) and then fling for the kill.  It just steals games when the opp. thinks he's got one more turn.

It does need red mana, but if you consider running red for sideboard options, you might aswell include Fling MD!

What do you guys think ?  Is Fling an option; why would you (not) run it?

Bob Out

[EnialisLiadon]

I would think that Fling serves the same purpose as Berserk (make creature big, swing for the kill either zerked or flung), only Fling sucks more if it gets countered.

[Xman]

Other problem with Fling is it can (& Will) get misdirected.  Flinging a 30/16 Tog at someone may sound like fun, but you better have a bunch of control backup or else they will go nuts vs. you, sending your own fling back at you tfor the win.

[Mana Duane]

Steve,

I agree 100% that Mana Crypt > Mox pearl in this deck but are you sure that the Mox doesn't deserve to be in the deck in the slot you currently have as Strip Mine/ Island? Particular if you went the strip mine route.
You have a lot of 2 mana spells you want to cast early (4 Dryad, 4 Merchant, DT, Time Walk - bigger in this deck than in most since you want to get to 2 lands and start gushing) and i would have thought that you were better off maximising your chance of being able to play these turn 1 rather than running Strip Mine. The deck doesn't have a mana denial stratery and you want your land drops to be Islands so you can gush.

James

[Purple Hat]

I feel like running both strip and library is a bit odd since you need colored mana very badly in this deck.  I think I'd much rather have a colored source than stripmine game one

[LordHomerCat]

Steve's list doesn't have Library, so there isn't that already-taken colorless slot to worry about.

[Bob The Builder]

Other problem with Fling is it can (& Will) get misdirected.  Flinging a 30/16 Tog at someone may sound like fun, but you better have a bunch of control backup or else they will go nuts vs. you, sending your own fling back at you tfor the win.

I know what you're talking about but I wouldn't pump my Tog up to 30... More like 10 or 11, swing and finish of with the fling...  If it gets redirected, that would be tough, since I would get hurt and lose my creature, but in my opinion you wouldn't play fling unless you're in a situation where you have to win now.  And then I feel it's worth a shot.

[Jo84]

Fling is really horrible.

First you lose the creature, whether Fling is countered or not.

Let your berserk be countered and nothing happens.

Second as stated, it can be misdirected at you, and 11 damage might be enough (think what fastbond, fetchies, forces and your opponent will do to you, yeah, damage)

Berserk may be misdirected onto another creature, but that won´t lose you the match, except you would lose it anyway you can´t kill this turn (then Fling is also not any better).

Fling may only be enough if you don´t grow your creature too much (which is risky cause of misdirection) AND if your opponent can´t block it.

Berserk gives trample, so you may end the game one or two turns earlier.

All in all, whatever Fling does, Berserk does it better.

[Mana Duane]

I see this deck as esentially being an engine that allows you chain together a large number of spells and be rewarded for doing so by Dryad. Is that fair?
What do people think are the advantages of Dryad over that other card that rewards you for chaining spells: Tendrills of Agony?

I can see that Dryad allows you to win small because you don't need to get to 10 spells on a single turn but a storm deck could
run Empty the Warrens to achieve this so i feel its a mute point. I feel that the storm kill is superior since:

a) ToA and EtW reward you with 2 damage per spell rather than the 1 extra damage Dryad gives you

b) Artifacts (and green cards) also count towards your spell count

c) Storm is harder to counter, imune to StP etc.

d) Storm takes up fewer slots in your deck (maybe 1 ToA and 1 EtW vs 4 Dryad, a 1 tog and a CWish)

e) You play ToA at the end of the chain whereas you need to play Dryad at the start (or rather the previous turn
if you want to attack with it on the turn you "go off"). Playing a chain of draw and tutor cards will help you to find
your kill card so you prefer to have the kill at the end of the chain rather than the start of it.


I'm struggling to see many benefits of Dryad over storm. I'm wondering if the only reason Dryad was ever played
was because it was the best way of rewarding you for playing spells that existed at the time?

James

[orgcandman]

I see this deck as esentially being an engine that allows you chain together a large number of spells and be rewarded for doing so by Dryad. Is that fair?
What do people think are the advantages of Dryad over that other card that rewards you for chaining spells: Tendrills of Agony?

I can see that Dryad allows you to win small because you don't need to get to 10 spells on a single turn but a storm deck could
run Empty the Warrens to achieve this so i feel its a mute point. I feel that the storm kill is superior since:

a) ToA and EtW reward you with 2 damage per spell rather than the 1 extra damage Dryad gives you

b) Artifacts (and green cards) also count towards your spell count

c) Storm is harder to counter, imune to StP etc.

d) Storm takes up fewer slots in your deck (maybe 1 ToA and 1 EtW vs 4 Dryad, a 1 tog and a CWish)

e) You play ToA at the end of the chain whereas you need to play Dryad at the start (or rather the previous turn
if you want to attack with it on the turn you "go off"). Playing a chain of draw and tutor cards will help you to find
your kill card so you prefer to have the kill at the end of the chain rather than the start of it.


I'm struggling to see many benefits of Dryad over storm. I'm wondering if the only reason Dryad was ever played
was because it was the best way of rewarding you for playing spells that existed at the time?

James

One thing you really can't discount is how tight this thing runs together. It's operating on 1 (maybe 2) mana floating. It's never gonna support EtW. Tendrils is feasible, but still there are much better tendrils decks.

Another thing, as you said "You play the tendrils at the end of the chain." That means that tendrils is an incidental threat. Hell, you could be winning with illusions-donate. It doesn't matter. The threat comes at the end, or is the engine. With GAT, the threat is two-fold. You have a really robust engine, as well as a really strong threat in dryad. Plus, you can drop an early dryad and your opponent HAS to answer it. Even if you never get to actually resolve another spell, as long as you're playing them dryad is huge. With a combo deck, you need to play the spells, sure but you need them to resolve. I'll march spells all day long into counter wars because it means my dryad is gonna hit harder.

Thirdly, tendrils will require a lot of infrastructure. Look at gush tendrils. It's running more artifact mana because it needs a high storm count. It's running really expensive effects (mind's desire, gifts ungiven, BB for ToA). Gush engine requires 2 islands in play. The fact is, with a tendrils based deck, you're slowing yourself down to winning on or after turn 2, at the earliest. You don't gain much either. Your draw engine doesn't become uncounterable. It's cheaper, sortof. You sacrifice turns for cards. You give up 2 land drops, and 2 turns to get your draw engine online. While I'll be the first to say it's amazing when you've got fastbond on the table, it's also not that hot when your spells cost 4-6 and you're waiting turns to replay the mana you just sent back to your grip.

Fourthly, storm folds to cards, not strategies. Arcane lab, rule of law, stifle, trickbind, etc.. GAT doesn't. It's got a higher threat count, and is much more resiliant to the hate that people will be playing. Even with a chalice for 1 on the board, Dryad will grow.

That's all I say on the subject for now anyway. It may be that storm and gush work amazingly together. If you really believe that though, then shouldn't you be commenting on the Gush Tendrils thread?

[Mulciber]

I’ve recently picked up vintage after taking a break for about year and I’m ecstatic to see this deck being talked about!

Gush married to Dryad makes much more sense than to storm.  I really hope people aren’t trying to play this deck like a storm deck.  You don’t need a 10 spell count to win…just a few turns of 2-3.  If Fastbond comes out, all the better!  But it shouldn’t be a win/loss go for it combo piece.  It doesn’t want to win on turn 1-3 (although it does at times by accident)…it likes the 5-7 range.

Stripmine has always been a winner, especially after this deck takes off and people start to meta with Mazes.  There are a few cards I'm struggling with and they both point to the loss of life issue:  Street Wraith & Mana Crypt.  I've died to crypt several more times than it has come in handy on turn 2.  I always liked it in tog though so I’ll keep it here for a while (also comes in handy if you play an additional wish).  Street Wraith has been even more double-edged.  It's usually either spectacular or devastating. 

Haven't read Mr. Menendian's article which I'm sure discusses the nuances of Street Wraith, but in addition to the tutors, I've come across some awesome interactions with brainstorm, and vs. Duress.  Hardcasting him to pump a dryad, and winning with swampwalk also has come in handy once or twice.  But what are some possible alternatives for these 3 slots?  Is Sleight of Hand just not good enough anymore?  I’ve tried Sylvan Library, but as usual, is just 1 turn too slow, and has no synergy with FoW or Dryad.

Loss of life has always been an issue with this deck though, and the only ways to counter it is to play with inefficient jank.  Just another reason this deck is difficult/fun to pilot.

Also, has anyone had success/failure with Compost in the SB…too slow?

[Mana Duane]

I think its valid and useful to compare ToA and Dryad as kill conditions in this deck because, as i said, they both rely on you playing spells.
I don't think the decks need to be as far apart as you're making out. Esentially you could take GAT and remove the creatures to replace them
with 2 storm cards. You want a full complement of artifact mana for storm but you don't need as much green and i for one think GAT should run all
the accelerants anyway.

I don't think your point about the "Tendrills infastucture" being large and having large casting costs is valid. No one forces you to play
Mind's Desire or Gifts in order to run Tendrils. If they are too expensive and not worth their slot: don't play them. Gifts very rarely played
Mind's Desire. Actually, as i said, one of the benefits of the tendrils kill is that it is smaller. You could cut 4 Dryads, the tog and the C.Wish for
1 ToA and 1 EtW.I'd probably run rituals in the 4 free spaces I've just generated so that would help make the deck less mana tight as well.

[alvin6688]

Why not run a semi-transformational sideboard, bringing in EtW and/or Tendrils from the side against Stax and whatnot? They won't be expecting us to turn into a combo deck, and will be unprepared. If you compare our GAT lists to the GushTendrils lists on the other thread, you'll see that we only defer by 5 or so cards. With Steves build including Crypt and Lotus Petal, that shrinks even more.

Or we could run the Tinker + fatty combo, though I'm not sure if there are good fatties out there for Tinker.

[Purple Hat]

I think its valid and useful to compare ToA and Dryad as kill conditions in this deck because, as i said, they both rely on you playing spells.
I don't think the decks need to be as far apart as you're making out. Esentially you could take GAT and remove the creatures to replace them
with 2 storm cards. You want a full complement of artifact mana for storm but you don't need as much green and i for one think GAT should run all
the accelerants anyway.

I don't think your point about the "Tendrills infastucture" being large and having large casting costs is valid. No one forces you to play
Mind's Desire or Gifts in order to run Tendrils. If they are too expensive and not worth their slot: don't play them. Gifts very rarely played
Mind's Desire. Actually, as i said, one of the benefits of the tendrils kill is that it is smaller. You could cut 4 Dryads, the tog and the C.Wish for
1 ToA and 1 EtW.I'd probably run rituals in the 4 free spaces I've just generated so that would help make the deck less mana tight as well.

the problem is your 2 dmg/spell calculation...it's not right.  say I drop a dryad on turn 1, then my opponent does something I don't like and I force it.  ok, 1 counter on dryad.  next turn I play some cantrip or draw spell and a land, 2 counters.  even if I do nothing else I've got a 3/3 creature in play, I swing in, that's 1 point for the cantrip and 1 point I NEVER WOULD HAVE GOTTEN WITH A STORM DECK for the force.  but moving right along, assuming my opponent doesn't do something I want to counter, I go to my next turn, I play a tutor, dryad is 4/4, If it was a topdeck tutor and I didn't have it on upkeep then I either cantrip into it (dryad is 5/5) or I pass the turn.  otherwise I play the card I tutored for which is probably either a draw spell or fastbond, and if I have it I gush and begin to go crazy (dryad is 5/5 or 6/6 or bigger) I now swing again.  getting the second point of dmg from the cantrip I played on turn 2 and the counter I played on my opponent's turn 1.  but wait.  my opponent isn't dead yet.  ok, so now I go to turn 4 where I tutor/cantrip/draw into more counters on dryad.  now I swing again getting the third point of dmg for the cantrip I cast on turn 2 and the counter I cast on my opponent's turn 1.  at this point my opponent is probably dead, but assuming he's not I can still get a 4th point of dmg out of him by hitting him again on my next turn.

but what if things go wrong somewhere?  what if my  cantrips reveal land and misdirections/forces and I'm unable to grow my dryad?  what if I don't find a second or third mana source?  In that worst case I'm still left with a 3/3-4/4 dryad and it's only going to get bigger the more my opponent tries to do stuff that I then respond to with counters.  This means that in the games where things aren't going so well for me I'm still left with a reasonable clock backed up by pitch counters and duress.   that tendrils looks pretty silly in your hand when you're stuck on a land and a mox and can only manage 1 cantrip/turn, but the dryad looks like an impressive threat under those circumstances.

with regards to the tendrils/etw kill being smaller, if you cut 4 cards and replace them with rituals which you will only ever use to play tendrils aren't the rituals part of the tendrils package?  in which case aren't you, in fact, running a 6 card kill package exactly like gat?  Additionally, the point has been made, and will continue to be made I'm sure, that if you're interested in killing with tendrils why limit yourself by playing an engine that requires you to have 2 lands in play to function properly when you could play something like pitch long and avoid said necessity.  If you're going to go the tendrils route you are probably better off playing something like long than something like gat simply because you're giving up 1-3 turns to set up your kill and in the rare cases where you can win earlier (fastbond in opening hand) you would have won anyway.

Why not run a semi-transformational sideboard, bringing in EtW and/or Tendrils from the side against Stax and whatnot? They won't be expecting us to turn into a combo deck, and will be unprepared. If you compare our GAT lists to the GushTendrils lists on the other thread, you'll see that we only defer by 5 or so cards. With Steves build including Crypt and Lotus Petal, that shrinks even more.

Or we could run the Tinker + fatty combo, though I'm not sure if there are good fatties out there for Tinker.

Siding into a storm combo deck vs stax this is a terrible idea.  stax is designed to restrict your resources making it difficult to play multiple spells each turn.  storm forces you to win by playing multiple spells in a single turn.  by turning into a storm combo deck you move more towards the part of your strategy that your opponent's deck is designed to disrupt and away from the part of your strategy that your opponent has a difficult time with.  stax is phenomenally bad at preventing the opponent from casting 1 spell a turn over the course of 3-4 turns in the early/mid game.  it thrives off meta games where opponents are attempting to string many spells together.   if you're attempting to beat stax by storming through it's lock parts all day you're gonna have a long day.  it would be far more appropriate to board dryads or togs into a storm deck for the stax matchup than the other way around.

Tinker doesn't work very well in most gat lists because gat tends to not run the spare moxen that other decks do.  only running 3-4 moxen and possibly petal means that you are far less likely to have a random artifact floating around that you can afford to sac to tinker.  you can't sac off color moxen cus you're probably not playing them, and you can't sac on color moxen cus you probably need the mana.  the problem isn't a lack of good fatties, the problem is a lack of things to tinker off.