Is it just me, or is oath terrible?

[Meddling Mike]

....well, more terrible than usual anyways. I've noticed with the rise of flash, flash seems to just be a better version of Oath of Druids right now. So, Oath's super awesome start was to get 1 of the 4 Orchards in the deck, 1 of the 4 Oaths in the deck and hopefully some sort of fast mana, play the Oath, protect it with forces/other counters and then win in a few turns. FLASH on the other hand needs to get 1 of the 4 flashes in the deck, one of the four hulks in the deck (more likely to get than Oath getting an Oath thanks to summoners pact), any land and some sort of fast mana, play the flash, protect the flash with Pact of Negation/FoW/MisD win the game THAT TURN. Yet I seem to be running into more Oath decks online than ever before. Perhaps I'm missing something, but the only advantage I can think of for Oath over flash is that two bounce/removal spells are required to disrupt Oath's plan (although one does slow it down considerably) where one bounce removal spell puts Flash back at square one a few cards down. This minor advantage hardly seems justified given the huge advantages Flash's gameplan seems to have over Oath (More likely to put together the nuts draw, more likely to be able to cast the nuts draw, better able to protect the nuts draw, winning immediately with the nuts draw rather than 2-3 turns later)

[Implacable]

You are comparing two decks that share the similarity of a two-card combo but nothing else.  Oath plans to either control the game with artifact disruption, superior draw, and good disruption, then play Oath and win, or alternatively just play Oath on Turn 1 and kill by Turn 3.  Flash, on the other hand, kills as soon as it can; as soon as it has the pieces, it goes or dies.  An all or nothing combo deck has very little in common with a controlling slow-combo deck.

[Meddling Mike]

You are comparing two decks that share the similarity of a two-card combo but nothing else.  Oath plans to either control the game with artifact disruption, superior draw, and good disruption, then play Oath and win, or alternatively just play Oath on Turn 1 and kill by Turn 3.  Flash, on the other hand, kills as soon as it can; as soon as it has the pieces, it goes or dies.  An all or nothing combo deck has very little in common with a controlling slow-combo deck.

Ok, Oath can play the long game, but I'm not convinced that it wants to. Superior control decks will beat it in the long game and it's not disruption oriented enough to consistently stop faster decks.

[rkmancer]

Yes in my opinion oath deck feels that terrible. .
Those deck (angel version and tyrant version both) dominates my meta games unstoppable. .
I don't play a lot with flash yet, but in my concern, it gives more trouble than oath since
just like Mage said. .its combo component one less in number than oath. .

Talk about Oath's superior draw, I see that Flash deck uses similar draw spell except Impulse. .
In payback, Flash may uses some of the blue pact since it wins in one turn. .

But something that fun in playing against Flash deck, I don't have to afraid to cast my lovely
creatures, in condition sometimes maybe that creatures can block the combo. .in example
samurai of pale curtain or Windborn Muse or dark confidant 
At least if flash player got stuck, i can beat him with my creatures that will be rare event when
against oath. .

[Marek]

We'll the thing about oath is that oath doesn't roll over to graveyard hate.  I still think flash has a superior gameplan and running 4 scrolls (which most flash builds do) is usually enough to find to bounce for the problems.  However, atleast in my metagame for mox tournaments, pretty much everyone has been SB-ing 4x leylines, so a deck that relies whole-heartidly on the graveyard doesn't usually faire so well around here.

Just my 2 cents.

Marek

[Grand Inquisitor]

Superior control decks will beat it in the long game

These don't really exist anymore.

oath doesn't roll over to graveyard hate

I'm not defending Oath as a strong choice, especially compared to Flash, but these points do summarize the rationale, and your argument is somewhat a simplification.

[zeus-online]

The oath "combo" takes less slots...You need:
4 Oaths
2 Creatures
1 Gaea's blessing
4 Ochards (But you where probably gonna be using LANDS anyway)

Which means that there's more space for disruption and card draw.
Haven't tested oath vs. bomberman, but if that match-up is good (Which i can easily imagine) then there's a reason to play it...Same with GAT, although i doubt the GAT match-up is all that good.

...But i honestly always thought oath was terrible.

/Zeus

[Zherbus]

I don't think Oath can be compared to Flash at all. It's already been mentioned that Flash requires more slots than standard Oath. And as far as metagaming goes, people are ready for Flash and that's why it's sort of unimpressive. I think that with disruption Oath has, especically Chalice, that the deck is perfectly capable. A common activity among Vintage players is to declare archetypes dead without thinking about how to keep them current. Frankly, all but a few have abandoned Oath and most never looked at the cards in the deck to see what would be better used.

Given any random tournament, I would think that turn 1 Chalice for 1, turn 2 Oath (with Bomberman, Fish, GaT, Ichorid, and SS - Orchard is only needed probably half the time) would win way more games than it lost. And right now, there's little in the way of hosing it compared to the decks that have been played. I think a properly tuned Oath deck can be an excellent ambush deck, but is easily prepared for if it ever became a metagame consideration, which it isn't.

I played it in the SB of my control deck (which is also an outsider deck right now, as it's not a metagame consideration itself). I didn't need Orchard for obvious reasons. And I played with a more defensive critter set (I didn't want to race Ichorid, and I wanted something untouchable against Fish). The strategy was something many weren't prepared for, and I'd think that a tuned Oath deck would come out of the boooooooth against much of the format, if it could stop it's men from being bounced.

[Methuselahn]

oath doesn't roll over to graveyard hate

I'm not defending Oath as a strong choice, especially compared to Flash, but these points do summarize the rationale, and your argument is somewhat a simplification.

Simple arguments win deck selection choices all the time.  Especially online.

Oath doesn't exactly roll over to Mindcensor either.  This could also help influence people.

[twault]

I think Ben Carp said it best "Terrible players with terrible lists make Oath look bad." Play him and then decide if Oath is terrible. In the right hands, Oath can dominate.

Oath IS the "superior control deck" in most matchups. FOW, Mana Drain, Duress, Chalice, Null Rod, Wasteland, and Echoing Truth are all great disruption that the deck packs. That's a lot of disruption. Chalice of the Void is a highly underrated card, it's like your 9th-15th counterspell, yet some Oath builds don't run Chalice. Having the right list (ICBM anyone?) makes all the difference.

Oath is a lot more skill-intensive than people realize. It's easy to screw up and make a game-ending mistake by misplaying.

I found out the hard way, because I scrubbed out of a tourney by making stupid mistakes. So, I was the terrible player with some questionable card choices (although in my defense it was a sanctioned tournament, and I don't have full power).

I went back to the same venue the next month, played some of the same guys, and I ended up winning. Why? First, I learned which hands are worth keeping. Secondly, I learned not to fall into certain traps and make certain mistakes. Thirdly, you have to adjust your role or plan around what your opponent does.

Against Flash, I was pretty sure my opponent was running all non-basic lands. I knew he was probably packing Pact of Negation, Force of Will, and Duress. Instead of trying to cast Oath and win the counter war; I went for Wasteland---Life from the Loam. I ended up beating down with a Mishra's Factory, because I knew I would get out-countered, and he couldn't get 2 lands in play to cast Flash.

Chalice for "0" won me another game. I cast Oath with double FOW backup, my opponent Forced the Oath. I forced. He forced my FOW. I forced again. Then he cast Pact of Negation, so I pointed to the Chalice, and he knew at that point that there was nothing he could do.

Changing strategies between games or even during games makes Oath very adaptable to just about any matchup.

Plus, it's a sneaky meta choice that isn't overly-hated. I think it could resurface as a force with the meta change.

[BeatDominator]

I think it's a properly tuned Oath deck can be an excellent ambush deck, but is easily prepared for if it ever became a metagame consideration, which it isn't.

I'm afraid i have to agree with Zherbus here.  Oath still posses a level of power that gives it a home amongst vintage decks these days, albeit a bungalow, a home none the less.

As zeus-online said, one of the real boons of oath is the compact size of the carpool needed to make it operate.  A few lands, a few oaths and the deck was good to go.

Oathing out big fast creatures is a good game finisher, but there has to be a way to stop your opponent for at least 3 turns.  If the main concern of the deck is its lack of ability to prevent your opponent from doing what they do via the standard mana drain/force/daze setup, maybe a different approach is preferable?  Call me crazy, but a more proactive disruption base might be just what the doctor ordered.  Duress, wastelands/strip and chalices seem to be far more effective these days than a fistful of hard counters.
 
As a big proponent of  magic, i say throw in 4 duresses, some black tutors and see where it gets you.  I have found recently at 4 duress + 3 chalice + some land disruption to be a pretty solid means as of late.  Granted I'm playing mask-nought, the concept is similar though.  We both try to throw down an enabler and beat face quickly there after.

edit.

Oath IS the "superior control deck" in most matchups. FOW, Mana Drain, Duress, Chalice, Null Rod, Wasteland, and Echoing Truth are all great disruption that the deck packs. That's a lot of disruption. Chalice of the Void is a highly underrated card, it's like your 9th-15th counterspell, yet some Oath builds don't run Chalice. Having the right list (ICBM anyone?) makes all the difference.

It seems a stretch to me to call oath a control deck in todays day and age.  It seems more of a "please god let me get this oath down and protect my creatures" deck rather than control.  In that sense, it has an air of combo to it, it tries to hit a card, Oath, then protects it as best it can.

[ErkBek]

Oath IS the "superior control deck" in most matchups. FOW, Mana Drain, Duress, Chalice, Null Rod, Wasteland, and Echoing Truth are all great disruption that the deck packs. That's a lot of disruption. Chalice of the Void is a highly underrated card, it's like your 9th-15th counterspell, yet some Oath builds don't run Chalice. Having the right list (ICBM anyone?) makes all the difference.

It seems a stretch to me to call oath a control deck in todays day and age.  It seems more of a "please god let me get this oath down and protect my creatures" deck rather than control.  In that sense, it has an air of combo to it, it tries to hit a card, Oath, then protects it as best it can.

I think this is why no one else wins with oath. You should think of Oath as Landstill but with a combo finish.

[Harlequin]

I think oath is actually a good choice right now.  Heres how my logic breaks down about what oath actaully is.

> A combo deck.  Very broadly, is a deck that seeks to end the game as soon as possible.  Packs just enough disruption to get by and all other cards in the deck are combo pieces or enablers.
>> Oath's role as part of a combo deck seems rather terrible.  Its a very round about way to win the game. (this is in the witness oath, salvager oath, or rector oath realms).

> A Tempo deck.  Broadly, this type of deck want to have every card net a slight advantage.
>> Oath as a win condition for a Tempo deck ... well Oath is certainly a low mana cost win.  The glaring problem to me is that it seems that the best tempo cards are all creatures that you can't run in oath.  however given the right timeing a deck like ICBM Oath can do well.

> A control deck.  This deck seeks to actually put a stop to its opponent.  Most of the cards in the deck are designed to stop spells and stratigies.  The win condition is more or less irrelevant (see oldshcool mono blue with Morphling, and old school 4cc with Exaulted Angel).
>> Oath in a control deck.  I personally like this stratigy.  Because the actually win condition is cheap, and has the ability to randomly win on turn 2-3. 

Gushin' Oath:
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus petal // Fetch (still debatable)
1 Library of Alexandria

2 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Sundering Titan

4 Oath of Druids
1 Tinker
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Research and Development
1 Fastbond

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Nix
2 Misdirection
2 Foil

4 Brainstorm
4 Gush
1 Timewalk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Regrowth

Sideboard
1 Blazing Archon
1 Platinum Angel
1 Simic Sky Swallower
2 Energy Flux
2 Oxidize
2 Trickbind
1 Echoing Truth
3 Extirpate
2 Extract

-----------------------------------------------

Worst Matchup ---

4x Gifts - This deck is a bad match up.  They can usually edge out your control with card advantage.  Back in the days before Gush... this was even more true.

This little problem is what kept me from really exploring the deck.

The good new?  Gush is legal and Gifts isn't - woot.

===============================================

GAT/Gro --
With Tidespouts this is good.  You can out control them, and it will be difficult for them to edge out a win when you constantly bounce thier dudes.  Also Titan does a number on them.

Ichorid --
Bad game 1, but with enough stalling cards coming in game 2, its easy enough to get 1 oath activations.  Usually I just have 1 Blazing archon in my deck and thats it.  (then I just need to extirpate thier Emerald charms or deck them). 

Flash --
Not great, but about as good as it could be.  With 6 free hardcounters + nixes (and post board + extirpate & extracts) this matchup can be won quite easily.  I ususaly side out 1 to 2 Oaths because really all I need to do is wait for them to go all in on a pact and then counter the win (so they loose in next turn's upkeep).

Bomberman --
mostly unfavorable.  I got knocked out of Top 8 by Oli playing Bomberman.  AEther spellbomb makes this match difficult.  The saveing grace is that Bomberman is mostly moving away from Meddling Mage and towards Mindcensors - so as bomberman evolves to beat other decks, it looses power against oath (in theory).

Shops --
Shops are shops, and with APNAP rules working in your advantage this match is not bad.  Renegadeing dupes or caps can put an end to your plans really quickly though.

TMWA or MMWA or other non-blue tempo decks --
tTidespout shines in these matches as well, because these decks are now running attack-step hosers (like Ghostly prison, and that flyer), along side a fair degree of splash hate against enchantments.  I'm not really worried about this match-up though.... but maybe I should be?


So there you have it, It has a favorable to even matchup against 3 out of 4 of the top decks ... and usually crushes the X-1 bracket decks (shops, gobs, fish, mountains).  So how is that terrible?

[UrDraco]

Oath is probably one of the most controlling decks in the format. Its only other contender is Control Slaver and formerly Gifts. The big problem that Oath has is that it has to keep control for 3-4 turns in order to have time to win. If Oath could win the turn it triggers then I think it could be a real contender. I have been seeing lists lately that run Tidespout Tyrant which can lead to infinite mana. The best list I have seen so far I found on http://www.morphling.de/ and it came out of Germany. Cutting Gaea's blessing seems insane but I think that it is one of the best ideas I have seen in a long time. Without it in the deck you can run things like Recoup, Krosan Reclamation, and Deep Analysis from the yard with your infinite mana and then go for a storm card FTW. Here is a copy of the list which got 4th:

1 Black Lotus
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Duress
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Deep Analysis
4 Force of Will
1 Lat-Nam's Legacy
4 Mana Drain
1 Rushing River
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Time Walk
1 Krosan Reclamation
4 Oath of Druids
1 Recoup

Lands (15):
2 Flooded Strand
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
1 Brain Freeze
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
3 Energy Flux
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rebuild
1 Stifle
1 Vampiric Tutor


Personally I would build it a little different but that doesn't change the fact that this deck gets away from Oaths major flaw, needing extra turns after the trigger to win. Oath is also one of the few "combo" decks that easily negate Mindcencor as stated above.

[Malhavoc]

Talking about Oath in general isn't enough: there are different Oath builds that are really different both in deck list and game role. ICBM Oath and Tyrant Oath are two completely different decks for example. Personally, I've played Tyrant for months and have won a lot with it. The deck is an awesome control-combo deck, with a awesome matchup against random aggro and fish (just watch out for meddling - hide your identity game 1 and side massacre game 2). However, I have to admit that the new Ichorid and flash aren't very good matchups. Ichorid however is an uphill game for most decks especially game1, and flash is really dependent on the initial hand (and with force duress and drain you aren't necessary harmless against it).

So, if you ask if Oath is a dead deck, well my answer is no, definitely! It may have lost just a bit of grip of the metagame, but nothing more. As for comparing Flash with Oath, enough has been said: they have in common just the converted mana cost. Everything in them is different: you need the creature in hand with flash, in the deck with Oath; one is a extreme combo deck, the other a control/combo or denial/aggrocontrol deck (depending on the build). One is quite screwed by Leyline, the most common card in the metagame right now (sure it has answers, but still it's a pain), the other is just a bit annoyed by it.

[Tiki Walker]

Hello, there,

I would like to argue that Oath decks are not at all terrible. It really depends on the metagame consideration, the builds, and the players piloting the deck.

Particularly, I find the Tyrant variant to be very resilient against any well balanced meta. It has the tools to escape from unfavorable conditions, and to win by any means the player deemed suitable, and it possess the ability to wade well through random hates that other players might bring to any big tournaments, as I honestly think that it is not very easy to construct any deck that completely hates on Oath while still expecting to do well in any big tournaments, and not folding to some other random decks like Goblins, burns, R/G, etc., that people might bring to the event.

If somehow the first game is not won, then proper sideboard cards can even or turn the matchup in the favor of the Oath player in game 2 and 3. Currently, maybe 4 Leyline of the Voids are 4 sideboard slots to be considered standard in any decks.

There will be always some players who favor taking Oath decks to any tournaments, and as long as the metagame is balanced for the event, then I think there are always possibilities for them to do well.

thank you.

[pyr0ma5ta]

God, no.  Don't add Leyline to Oath, it doesn't need more dead draws. 

[Malhavoc]

God, no.  Don't add Leyline to Oath, it doesn't need more dead draws. 

More dead draws? I don't see any "dead" draw in Tyrant Oath: Tyrant can be cast off a drain, Oath itself isn't a dead draw unless you happen to have 3-4 in your starting hand. Maybe just Krosan Reclamation is dead, but sometimes it gets useful to "counter" an welder activation, a mystical/vampiric, or to weaken a yagwill. As for Leylines, yes, they are quite awful, but they are needed for that abominion known as Ichorid.. it's more debatable if they should be sided in also against flash, since they are not as definitive as against Ichorid.

[twault]

As stated before, the Tidespout Tyrant build is much different from the ICBM build. I have never played the Tyrant version, and I probably won't, since I'm happy with the list I'm using. Each build has its strenghts and weaknesses, but ICBM Oath is more my style.

The ICBM build is pretty versatile. It has a lot of control elements that are useful for any matchup. When you know what you are playing, a well-timed Chalice can stall or stop your opponent. If you don't know what your playing in Game 1, Chalice 1 is always a good shot in the dark.

[ManaDrainChile]

oath is a good deck but in the actual format, in my opinion Tidespout Tyrant  whit oath is more versatile option, akroma, razia, is a weak clock, because you win in the next 2 or three turns, and in this turns you die whit combo decks or are destroyed for deck how bomberman.  in the moment  that you spend in oath and have less mana to disruption, you eat the combos...(if it is in the early turn).

In my opinion when i play against oath is a accessible match, and i play whit varied decks how MUD, bomber, pitch long and not have a sideboard againts oath, and generally have  slot in my sideboar for decks how icorid and also it serves against oath....

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

   
A lot of people do not realize that oath is an incredibly flexible deck. I use to play oath (angel oath, the considered “less flexible” oath) very often. I found oath can easily win games with both of its angels removed. That says something. Being able to run 4 chalice and a strip lock that enables you to play a free reoccurring 2/2 or 3/3 beater or blocker alone is something to be reckoned with. In addition, as a “combo” deck, oath has only two pieces it to the puzzle, and one of them is a LAND (unless you opponent decides to do half your job for you and play a creature, then it’s a one piece puzzle), a land that doesn’t even need to stay in play. That’s a pretty good deal.
   It seems most oath players don’t fully realize what they should or should not be running in the Meta. People don’t seem to be able to do the math and realize akroma deal more damage the dsc in the same amount of time on her own. Chalice at one is game over for an extremely high number of vintage decks, where as oath of druids is not. Yet I still see builds with out chalice. In addition, a large amount of people will run duress with chalice, and last I checked giving your self dead cards was a bad idea.
   I also disagree with people complaining about the speed of oath. Oath has the ability to run a LARGE amount of disruption. That in combination with a possible 3 turn kill seems pretty amazing, even when put against some of the best combo’s out there. In fact, piloting oath, I have yet to loose a game to any deck running tendrils in tournament play. Complaining about oath speed is just something bad oath payers do because they can not determine the role they should be playing in the game.
   I’ve recently been avoiding oath and focusing on a tog list (which I believe is a favorable match up for oath, for now) but I’d imagine oath is a good match up for bomber man, instant kill with its combo, aggro pieces with casting costs high enough to deal with chalice, and comparable amounts of bounce/disruption. It seems the bomber man has a roll it can play to answer most of the routs of play oath can make.
   Most oath builds I’ve seen also don’t feel any hurt from leyline of the void. Having leyline in play is just the equivalency of not rolling over blessing after you’ve activated oath, any good build should be able to deal with this. Aside form the variants running yawg’s will (the considered “more resilient” oath builds) oath is good to go when facing any graveyard hate.

[Tiki Walker]

God, no.  Don't add Leyline to Oath, it doesn't need more dead draws. 

More dead draws? I don't see any "dead" draw in Tyrant Oath: Tyrant can be cast off a drain, Oath itself isn't a dead draw unless you happen to have 3-4 in your starting hand. Maybe just Krosan Reclamation is dead, but sometimes it gets useful to "counter" an welder activation, a mystical/vampiric, or to weaken a yagwill. As for Leylines, yes, they are quite awful, but they are needed for that abomination known as Ichorid.. it's more debatable if they should be sided in also against flash, since they are not as definitive as against Ichorid.

Hello, there.

I would like to second this opinion.

I would like to argue that if the Leylines are sided in the correct matchup, they will not be a dead draw, and they will not be utterly uncastable unlike what usually happened to some decks that pack them as a sideboard if somehow the one in play is bounced back to hand, is destroyed, or if we draw one of them from the top of the library. To actually cast it the deck is equipped with a full suite of 9 artifact mana, 4 Orchard, 4 blue fetch, and 2 Underground Seas, and the deck is quite equipped to protect them with its counters and the chalices.

The design is nice also that although the inclusion of Yawgmoth's Will suggests that the deck wants to win using its graveyard, the fact is the deck can comfortably win without its graveyard. So there is not much dependency on graveyard that otherwise can be hampered with popular graveyard hates.

I would like to opine that of course the deck is not unbeatable, but definitely Oath decks with all variants are going to be present here and there, as people who are comfortable with Oath's play style are going to bring any variants to any tournaments should they choose to do so.

Thank you.

[squeegee]

Haven't tested oath vs. bomberman, but if that match-up is good (Which i can easily imagine) then there's a reason to play it...Same with GAT, although i doubt the GAT match-up is all that good.


/Zeus

Having played the bomberman/oath matchup many times, and having never lost with bomberman in tourney, i would definately say advantage-bomberman.  Bomberman just has to many answers and more countermagic.  Especially post board. 

Anyway, I would rather be on the bomberman side of the table personally.