URBana Fish--The Solution to the metagame

[wierdmtg13]

here's what i played.  its really close to a list posted here earlier:

4 Dark Confidant
2 Dimir Cutpurse
1 Gorilla Shaman
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Waterfront Bouncer
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Daze
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Time Walk
1 Black Lotus
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB:
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Echoing Truth
2 Pyroblast
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Control Magic
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle

here's the thing though, with Lorwyn there will be 9shere stax decks.  i didnt feel real good against stax when i played so i think the deck needs to be reworked to beat stax.  and with 9sphere stax i think there will be a decline in the empty gush decks.  what do you guys think?

[The Duressed]

Is Dimir Cutpurse really that good in this deck? Especially as a two-of in a deck with a maximum of 1 tutor, it seems awfully random to me. Maybe I should test it more, but I'd also like to hear about the experiences of those that have brought the Cutpurse to a tournament.

[The Chosen One]

Is Dimir Cutpurse really that good in this deck? Especially as a two-of in a deck with a maximum of 1 tutor, it seems awfully random to me. Maybe I should test it more, but I'd also like to hear about the experiences of those that have brought the Cutpurse to a tournament.

I've played with cutpurse in a tournament just earlier this month. It is really really good early. I lost to stax due to him strip locking me both games, along with acticating memory jar prior to that and making me lose 5 creatures in the jar hand I had to pitch. This deck has a really solid game against GAT. Bomberman is really hard in my experiences, and stax although I did get beat up on a bit, could be manageable if they dont get way ahead.

[The Duressed]

It seems alright, now that I put some more thought into it and read and re-read a few posts. I'm wondering if the card itself has drastically swung any particular matchups? It seems like it could be pretty good against, say Empty Gifts. The number still has me unconvinced... I may decide to cut a ninja for him. We'll see.

[wierdmtg13]

i like the cutpurse a lot in this deck.  i dont know how good it will be against the 9sphere decks that are on the rise.  I would assume that the 9sphere decks are going to be shop aggro, because the 9 spheres will hate out the gush decks.  if the 9 sphere decks are going to be in mass, then i think the board and possibly the main deck needs to be reworked to combat these decks well.

[The Demon]

@ cutpurse issues.
 

Dimir Cutpurse is ran because it helps the deck achieve its draw engine.  Often times Dimir Cutpurse functions as Bob and Ninja 9 and 10. While he is not as strong as bob or ninja due to the slightly restrictive mana cost, he does a great job supporting them. Running Cutpurse helps the deck achieve the optimal ratio of draw in the deck.

[Moxlotus]

i like the cutpurse a lot in this deck.  i dont know how good it will be against the 9sphere decks that are on the rise.  I would assume that the 9sphere decks are going to be shop aggro, because the 9 spheres will hate out the gush decks.  if the 9 sphere decks are going to be in mass, then i think the board and possibly the main deck needs to be reworked to combat these decks well.

'

That's not hard to do.  Cut a couple of the maindeck REB/Duress/Chalice, add a few Rack and Ruins.  Make sure the sideboard is packing Needles, FTKs, and artifact kill and you're good to go!

[someone_unimportan]

I'm not sure Rack and Ruin is the way to go against Resistors. It will end up being too expensive to cast at least half the time, I would think. I'd rather play something like Goblin Vandal or another cheap artifact-hating creature.

[The Duressed]

If one were to play Shattering Spree with replicate (sphere on the board), would he have to pay the extra  for each copy?

[MrJolly]

If one were to play Shattering Spree with replicate (sphere on the board), would he have to pay the extra  for each copy?

No. It just an additional 1 for the original spell. So 1R to play, and R for each copy.

[wierdmtg13]

which do you think is better for combating stax, goblin vandal or gorilla shaman.  i've got 2 open spots in my main and id like it to be one of those two.  what do you guys think?

[Nantuko]

Sure vandal is better in the stax matchup,but I think shaman is better in all the other matchups,so........you decide

[saradoc]

In my opinion the best you can play against stax is a combination of welder and shaman. With the new 9-spheres aggro workshops decks the vandal seems to be a bad solution. The only problem with the welder-shaman is that they expend more slots in the deck.

[wierdmtg13]

but i plan to run leyline out of the board to combat stax.  welder and leyline have zero synergy.  and the problem with shaman is the lacks of mana available.  he's really good at eating the moxen, but i am assuming problems with smokestax and other lock pieces.

[islanderboi10]

But stax won't be as big of a threat as Shop Aggro.  The thing is, This deck can NOT deal with a Juggernaught, especially when it has SoFI on it.  Not only does it have to deal with that, it has to play through 9-13 spheres.  Stax will be around, they will probably run many spheres, and smokestacks as usual.

That is just the problem I see with the deck, it can't play through many spheres very well.

Any ideas?

[wierdmtg13]

what do you guys think about hurkyl's recall from the board.  i know its not a lasting answer but it significantly slows then down and there is the possibility of them depleting their resources to play out their board already.

[The Duressed]

But stax won't be as big of a threat as Shop Aggro.  The thing is, This deck can NOT deal with a Juggernaught, especially when it has SoFI on it.  Not only does it have to deal with that, it has to play through 9-13 spheres.  Stax will be around, they will probably run many spheres, and smokestacks as usual.

That is just the problem I see with the deck, it can't play through many spheres very well.

Any ideas?

For starters, Pithing Needle is already amazing in this matchup. You can name SoFi, Welder, or any other thing that's giving you hard times.

Also, Waterfront Bouncer can keep back the 1 large creature. You can bounce the Juggernaut either during the attack phase or in response to a SoFi equip.

I also like to keep a couple Flametongue Kavus in my sideboard. Those guys seem pretty reasonable as well.

Just a few thoughts.

edit: Also, is Spell Snare getting better again? It seems like it not only targets Merchant Scrolls, Mana Drains, Quirion Dryads, etc, but also they now counter the 8 spheres people may start to stuff back into their decks. What do you think?

[Dante]

Just a few thoughts - I ran this at SCG Indy - with only 1 Basic land, if you're expecting a varied metagame or one you know will have Magus of Bloodmoon (yes I know that's not actually the card title), I would definitely include a couple of ways to remove him and FTK fits the bill as well as helping the Fish matchup.

[ErkBek]

URBana Fish is a metagame deck, now is not the time to play it. If you insist on playing it right now, it needs a total overhaul to have more game vs. Shops and Tarmogoyfs.

[wierdmtg13]

@ Kobefan:

i definitely agree it is a metagame deck.  but the problem is, this is the only playable deck i own for the SCG.  do you or anyone else out there have any ideas how to make it competitive in a heavy shop and 'goyf environment?

how good is chalice of the void right now?  i've been debating removing it from the list...

[The Duressed]

I don't understand what's un-winnable about the Workshop Aggro match-up. Flametongue Kavu is insane, Pithing Needle is still nuts, and Rack and Ruin does exactly what the name implies. All this without changing my sideboard by a single card. What am I missing?

edit: Oh, I almost forgot the MAINDECK Waterfront Bouncer

[Moxlotus]

I don't understand what's un-winnable about the Workshop Aggro match-up. Flametongue Kavu is insane, Pithing Needle is still nuts, and Rack and Ruin does exactly what the name implies. All this without changing my sideboard by a single card. What am I missing?

edit: Oh, I almost forgot the MAINDECK Waterfront Bouncer

It's really hard to win game 1.  Most of the cards you listed are sideboard.  They will also have a number of insane sideboard cards to bring in against you.  Post board is about even, but game 1 is horrendous.

[ErkBek]

@ Kobefan:

i definitely agree it is a metagame deck.  but the problem is, this is the only playable deck i own for the SCG.  do you or anyone else out there have any ideas how to make it competitive in a heavy shop and 'goyf environment?

how good is chalice of the void right now?  i've been debating removing it from the list...

Ah, I understand your situation then. Couple things I'd do:

4 Waterfront Bouncers, no question on that

4 Thoughtseize (if you don't have them, you've got to know someone you can borrow these from)

Maindeck either Crucible of Worlds (and 1-2 factories) or Sword of Fire and Ice. The deck needs a little more meat to it. I think you're better off with Crucible.   

The Control Magic Faerie guy to the main (maybe Threads, not sure)

I'm thinking a list along these lines

4 Bouncer
4 Bob
3 Gorilla
3 Ninja
3 Sower of temptation

1 Walk
1 Ancestral
1 DT
2 Brainstorm

4 FOW
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 REB
2 Crucible

5 Mox
1 Lotus
5 Strips
1 Island
6 Duals
7 Fetches

SB
3ish Rebs
2ish Smother
3-4 Shattering Spree
4 Leyline
2 Needle
maybe some FTK's (I'm tired, it's late)

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

i've seen many posts here about stax destroying you (well, I've read more about shop aggro, to be honest)
In playing expirience, I've found Stax to be easily beatable. I play a list with 4 thorn of the amethist main. I've found them to be good in almost any matchup, seriously. Even against Stax it rocks, if laid down early. With cheap one-drops, 4 ninjas and thorns, you can often buy enough time to combat stax locks. On top of that, Mogg fanatic owns welder drastically. (and has no summoning sickness, meaning you can even play that after welder hits play.
Shop Aggro, on the other side is really hard. It's there where rack and ruin, bouncers and Flametongue Kavu really shine, the latter even more so in the Bomberman matchup.
Also, I'm really happy with chalice, I've found it to be a beating. (My number of choice against decks with blue is 1, against brown ones 0.)
What do you think about thorn? I've found it so good mainly because your draw engine are creatures and sphere buys you enough time to make them matter.

[saradoc]

I was thinking about adding 4 thorn to the main, but I wasn´t sure about them. The worst thing about them is that agaisnt aggro decks they are dead cards. In this deck you can drop them on the first turn very easy, or begin with confidant and then cast them on the second turn. With thorns, chalices, shaman and strip effects the deck is some kind of pseudo-stax, but with an incredible drawing engine, I´m going to test them and see if they work. What have you cut for them? Maybe reds and 1 duress? Isn´the 2 CMC too satturated?

[Pitlord]

I think Kobefan is heading in the right direction for this deck right now. Mainboarding a control magic effect with sower is incredible right now, and I think 3 is a good number, even if it does seem a little high. Thoughtseize is a must in this deck, the damage is well worth the ability to take creatures. Crucible is also a beating against almost everything right now, allowing you to make full use of your numerous strip effects, and 2 is probably the right number, since you draw a lot of cards and never want to see more than 1.

I would make a few changes to the list posted though. I think REB is losing effect right now, even with gush still being popular. I think Spell Snare becomes a viable alternative right now, especially since a lot of your REBs are hitting merchant scroll anyway, and snare is actually quite good against stax and fish as well, where REB would be pretty bad. The other thing I would change is tweaking the mana base a little. With crucible in the main, Factory is very solid against GAT and shops, providing a wall of chump blockers, and is very good against other fish, where it takes down most creatures, and can be recurred. I think I would take the mana base and go:
+2 Factory
-1 Mox Pearl
-1 Wasteland
Wasteland is a good card, no doubt, but it loses some of it's power against shops when they have 3 or more crucibles in the main, and there is also always the possibility of GAT having the the gush to make it useless. I think 4 strip effects is enough right now.

[ErkBek]

I think Kobefan is heading in the right direction for this deck right now. Mainboarding a control magic effect with sower is incredible right now, and I think 3 is a good number, even if it does seem a little high. Thoughtseize is a must in this deck, the damage is well worth the ability to take creatures. Crucible is also a beating against almost everything right now, allowing you to make full use of your numerous strip effects, and 2 is probably the right number, since you draw a lot of cards and never want to see more than 1.

I would make a few changes to the list posted though. I think REB is losing effect right now, even with gush still being popular. I think Spell Snare becomes a viable alternative right now, especially since a lot of your REBs are hitting merchant scroll anyway, and snare is actually quite good against stax and fish as well, where REB would be pretty bad. The other thing I would change is tweaking the mana base a little. With crucible in the main, Factory is very solid against GAT and shops, providing a wall of chump blockers, and is very good against other fish, where it takes down most creatures, and can be recurred. I think I would take the mana base and go:
+2 Factory
-1 Mox Pearl
-1 Wasteland
Wasteland is a good card, no doubt, but it loses some of it's power against shops when they have 3 or more crucibles in the main, and there is also always the possibility of GAT having the the gush to make it useless. I think 4 strip effects is enough right now.

I was thinking about adding a Factory or 2 to go with Crucible, it wouldn't be a bad idea by any means. Cutting a Pearl for 1 seems like a good call, but I wouldn't cut a wasteland.

[The Duressed]

Spell Snare over Red Elemental Blast, really? Aside from still hitting Merchant Scroll and Mana Drain, Red Blast also hits the cards that people love to stuff into every deck: Force of Will and Ancestral Recall. It also hits Rushing River, Misdirection, and Trinket Mage. The only relevant cards it doesn't get are Quirion Dryad and Tarmogoyf (if you really are so very worried about Jotun Grunt, you obviously have to make your own metagame decisions anyway). And in any case, you happen to have 6 or 7 or more answers to those kinds of creatures in Waterfront Bouncer and Sower of Temptation. Then add in the Thoughtseizes... It seems pretty reasonable.

Personally, I'd rather play more Duresses or Thoughtseizes (whatever you aren't playing 4 of) than Spell Snare.

[saradoc]

I don´t think that creatures should be a big problem. Adding thoughtseizes for duress could be a solution, but I have tested a build with 3/3 and they didn´t seem better than duress. It´s obvious that in certain pairing thoughtseize is better than duress, but in general I prefer duress. Maybe the 1st game against aggro decks can be problematic, because thier guys are for sure bigger than ours, but with bouncer on the table you can bounce the bigger ones and try to get them countered. On the 2nd and 3rd game flametongue kavu combined with bouncer gives us the victory. But if your meta is full of creatures sower of temptaion seems to be the best solution.

I also don´t think that cutting reb for spell snare is a good idea. Except for stax it is incredible against all other matchups. Against fish you can counter a high percentage of their spells or destroy their meddling mages. In other nmatchups it seems better than spell snare, with a reb you can let merchant resolve and then counter the merchant target. Reb also helps in counter wars hitting fow or drain, or countering a brainstorm or a tinker, it is mucho more versatil. I´m not saying that spell snare is bad,  it is a good counter and maybe it should be increased in number in the deck, but for sure not for reb.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

But then, why are people playing bad things like sower of temptation to grab creatures? It's costy and can be bounced an tarmogoyf will switch on the other side of the table, looking ugly. I think against aggro (and fatties in general...) , there should be something cheaper and permanent (i.e. not reversible).

a sideboard (or main) creature hate package could consist of 3 waterfront bouncers and gilded drake. Either of those is good on it's own (well, it won't be worth playing a drake on a spiketail hatchling...)
What I'm trying to say is: the only drawback of gilded drake is that you give your opponent a free 3/3 flying, but get something like a tarmogoyf, a big dryad, a colossus, platz (amongst other dudes) that will likely hurt him more than you.
With waterfront bouncers on top of that, it becomes rather ridiculous.

I'll answer the question on behold of thorns later, haven't got my deck here. The only thing I know is that I still play 4 duress, but I might be taking out some for other things.