TheManaDrain.com
November 16, 2025, 05:28:08 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 13 ... 19
  Print  
Author Topic: Six of One, Half Dozen of the Other  (Read 138246 times)
zeus-online
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1807


View Profile
« Reply #300 on: April 22, 2009, 03:03:27 am »

i 2nd wiley....that would be awesome, although i do know some history, it dosn't go further back then the FoF-era. Okay, i also know a bit about what happened in 95-96....but a clear picture would be awesome.
Logged

The truth is an elephant described by three blind men.
Son of Serra
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 58



View Profile
« Reply #301 on: April 22, 2009, 03:41:28 pm »

I would also love to see an article about Vintage history up to the present. Perhaps the community could find insight into the recent discussions about improving Vintage attendance by reviewing the past...
Logged

And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, "O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy." And the Lord did grin. And the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths...
Smmenen
2007 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 6392


Smmenen
View Profile WWW
« Reply #302 on: May 13, 2009, 10:40:23 pm »

FYI: The top 75h decklists are on the first page, and I think I am close to exploding the page, so I'm just going to post the last 33 decklists here.   The stats are very interesting, and I'm sure people will look forward to analyzing the deck breakdown, as well as the proportions of various archetypes and average placement through the standings, etc.   

I will be posting the remaining 33 decklists in my next post in this thread.   I apologize for breaking it up, but the Mana Drain forums are not really able to handle that much text.   
Logged

Smmenen
2007 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 6392


Smmenen
View Profile WWW
« Reply #303 on: May 13, 2009, 10:50:19 pm »

76th Place: Michael French
3 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Smokestack
1 Trinisphere
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Staff of Domination
3 Arcbound Ravager
3 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Triskelion
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
4 Mishra's WOrkshop
2 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Mishra's Factory

Sideboard:
1 Triskelion
2 Razorman Masticore
2 Duplicant
1 Sphere of Resistance
3 Powder Keg
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sundering Titan
3 Tormod's Crypt

77th Place:  Chester Li
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Darksteel Colossu
1 Memory Jar
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
3 Grim Tutor
1 Imperial SEal
1 Necropotence
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mind's Desire
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Rebuild
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Bloostained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 swamp
4 Underground Sea
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

Sideboard:
1 Bayou
1 Cranial Extraction
4 Extirpate
2 Massacre
2 Pithing Needle
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Rebuild

78th Place: Nathan Rochette
1 Mana Crypt
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Sol Ring
1 Brainstorm
1 Mutavault
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Dance of the Dead
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Underground Sea
4 Naimate Dead
4 Deep Analysis
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Bloostained Mire
4 Intuition
4 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Tropical Island
4 Force of Will
1 Ponder
3 Necromancy
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mulldrifter
1 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard:
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Oath of Druids
4 Foribidden Orchard
3 Bogarden Hellkite

79th Place: Stefan Ellsworth

3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Tinker
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Sol Ring
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
3 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Recoup
1 Brainstorm
1 Skeletal Scrying
3 Repeal
1 Rebuild
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Timetwister
1 Gifts Ungiven

Sideboard:
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Pyroblast
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Thoughtseize
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Red Elemental Blast

80th Place: Thomas Guillante

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
2 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
4 Underground Sea
3 Trygon Predator
4 Meddling Mage
3 Dark Confidant
1 Darkblast
1 Echoing Truth
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Duress
3 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Daze
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Force of Will
1 Demonic Tutor

Sideboard:
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Stifle
3 Energy Flux
3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Kataki War's Rage

81st Place: Jeremy Daugherty
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Unmask
3 Petrified Field
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ichorid
4 Serum Powder
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
1 Angel of Despair
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Inkwell Leviathan
4 Narcomoeba
4 City of Brass
4 Bridge From Below

Sideboard:
4 Contagion
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Oxidize
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Thug

82nd Place: John Putrino

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Earwig Squad
4 Goblin Recruiter
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Fanatic
4 Goblin Vandal
2 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Stingscourger
1 Arms Dealer
4 Badland
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire

Sideboard:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Diabolic Edict
3 Fleshbag Marauder

83rd Place: Matt Hazard

1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Memory Jar
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Duress
1 Imperial Seal
1 Grim Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Force of Will
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Brainstorm
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Timetwister
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mind's Desire
1 Ponder
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Misdirection
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Inkwelll Leviathan
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Merchant Scroll

Sideboard:
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Rebuild
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Extirpate

84th Place: Micah Greenbaum
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Painter's Servant
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Grindstone
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Dark Confidant
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Imperial Recruiter
1 Meddling Mage
2 Auriok Salvagers
4 Trinket Mage
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Pyroblast
3 Mana Drain
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Seat of Synod
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Island
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Meddling Mage
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus
3 Master of Etherium
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pithing Needle

85th Place: Vincent Forino
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Samarai of the Pale Curtain
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Path of Exile
4 Figure of Destiny
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Dark Confidant
4 Aether Vial
3 True Believer
1 Whipcorder
1 Jotun Grunt
5 Plains
2 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Mox Pearl
1 Strip Mine
1 Scrubland

Sideboard:
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Orim's Chant
3 Chlidren of Korlis
3 Seal of Cleansing
1 Disenchant
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Ronom Unicorn
2 Kami of Ancient Law
1 Gaddock Teeg

86th Place: Christopher Roberts

3 Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thirst For Knowledge
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Goblin Welder
1 Gorilla Shaman
3 Trinket Mage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Mindslaver
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard:
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
2 Pyroclasm
2 Echoing Truth
2 Pyroblast
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Triskelion
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ingot Chewer

87th Place: Joe Pace

1 Inkwell Leviathan
4 Force of Will
1 Tinker
4 Null Rod
4 Negate
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Echoing Truth
3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Cursecatcher
2 Stifle
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Yixlid Jailer
3 Krosan Grip
2 Trygon Predator
3 Sower of Temptation
2 Tormod's Crypt

88th Place: Kevin Maher
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
1 Blood Crypt
8 Mountain
1 Sol Ring
3 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Vandal
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
2 Earwig Squad

Sideboard:
1 Vexing Shusher
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Stingscourger
3 Pyrokenesis
2 Shattering Spree
3 Leyline of the Void

89th Place:  Ch4is Browne

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Mystic Remora
4 Meditate
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Psychatog
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Time Vault
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Commandeer
1 Rebulid
3 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard:
3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Thoughtseize
1 Meloku, the Clouded Mirror
2 Red Elemental Blast

90th Place: Matt Parisi

4 Mishra's Workshop
9 Island
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
1 Duplicant
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan
3 Esperzoa
2 Master Transmuter
4 Master of Etherium
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtcast
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl

Sideboard:
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Grindstone
2 Painter's Servant
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast

91st Place: Jeremiah Rudolph
4 Kedereckt Parasite
4 Bloodhall Ooze
3 Hide/Seek
3 Burning-Tree Shaman
4 Tinstreet Hooligan
1 Bayou
4 City of Brass
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
4 Sudden Shock
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Confidant
4 Keen Sense
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Scrubland
2 Taiga
1 Black Lotus
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
3 Extirpate
4 Children of Korlis
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Duress

92nd Place: Alec Nezin


1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Memory Jar
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Duress
1 Grim Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Force of Will
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Brainstorm
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Timetwister
1 Mind's Desire
1 Ponder
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Misdirection
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall

Sideboard:
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Energy Flux
1 Rebuild
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Extirpate
2 Thoughtseize
1 Yixlid Jailer
2 Tormod's Crypt

93rd Place: Jeremy Barcello

4 Ichorid
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge From Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
1 Riftwing Cloudskate
1 Cephalid Sage
2 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Cephalid Colesium
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Breakthrough
1 Ancestral Recall

Sideboard:
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Pithing Needle
4 Force of Will
3 Contagion

94th Place:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Time Walk
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Imperial Seal
2 Grim Tutor
3 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloostained Mire
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
3 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echiong Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Island
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Leyline of the Void

95th Place: David Ata

1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Memory Jar
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Duress
1 Imperial Seal
1 Grim Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Force of Will
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Brainstorm
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Timetwister
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mind's Desire
1 Ponder
1 Rebuild
1 Misdirection
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Merchant Scroll

Sideboard:
4 Yixlid Jailer
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Massacre
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Island

96th Place:  Terence J. O' Beirne
4 Goblin Welder
4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Juggernaut
3 Uba Mask
3 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere
1 Platinum Angel
2 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
4 Mountain
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Wasteland
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Barbarian Ring
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Viashino Heretic

97th Place:
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Time Vault
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Misdirection
1 Voltaic Key
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Sol Ring
1 Tinker
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Brainstorm
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Viashino Heretic
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Lotus Petal
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sundering Titan

Sideboard:
2 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ingot Chewer
2 Relic of Progenitus

98th Place: Nick Coss
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sundering Titan
3 Goblin Welder
1 Viashino Heretic
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Thirst For Knowledge
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Tinker
1 Echoing Truth

Sideboard:
1 Platinum Angel
1 Trinisphere
1 Rack and Ruin
3 Sower of Temptation
2 Thoughtseize
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Extirpate
2 Tormod's Crypt

99th Place: Kevin Correia
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Standstill
3 Nulll Rod
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
2 Daze
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Mutavault
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Island

Sideboard:
3 Bitterblossom
2 Trygon Predator
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Disrupt
2 Planar Void
3 Tormod's Crypt

100th Place: Ralph Parsinite

4 Mana Drain
4 Thirst For Knowledge
4 Force of Will
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mox Ruby
1 Time Vault
1 Fire/Ice
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Ponder
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Sundering Titan
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Misdirection
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Pyroblast
1 Echoing Truth
1 Mox Pearl
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Voltaic Key

Sideboard:
 1 Platinum Angel
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Mindslaver
1 Extirpate
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Viashino Heretic
2 Duress
2 Goblin Welder
2 Threads of Disloyalty

101st Place: Lloyd Anderson
4 Master of Etherium
4 Esperzoa
4 Juggernaut
4 Faerie Machanist
3 Razormane Masticore
2 Damping Matrix
4 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Ancient Tomb
7 Island
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Sol Ring
1 Tolarian Academy

Sideboard:
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Annul
3 Echoing Truth
3 Mindlock  Orb

102nd Place: Nick Detwiler
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Goblin Welder
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Crop Rotation
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
2 Powder Keg
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Balance
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle

103rd Place: Jake Gans
1 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Goblin Welder
1 Tinker
4 Smokestack
1 Barbarian Ring
2 Powder Keg
1 Mana Vault
1 Crop Rotation
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Mox Ruby
1 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 City of Brass
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Triskelion
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mox Pearl
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Wasteland
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Strip Mine
1 Sundering Titan
3 Gemstone Mine

Sideboard:
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Platinum Angel
1 Pithing Needle
1 Balance
1 Viashino Heretic

104th Place: Joseph Vitalis

4 Withered Wretch
4 Bonknitter
4 Sheperd of Rot
2 Headhunter
4 Blackmail
3 Patriarch's Bidding
2 Misery Charm
4 Bad Moon
2 Phyrexian Plague Lord
4 Swat
4 Rotlung Reanimator
3 Ebonblade Reaper
4 Cabal Archon
3 Gravestone
4 Starlit Sanctum
4 Leechridden Swamp
16 Swamp

Sideboard:
2 Phyrexian Furnace
3 Eradicate
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Bog Down
2 Relic Barrier


105th Place: Daniel Colonari
4 Tundra
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Arcane Denial
2 Kismet
1 Mesmeric Orb
1 Ankh of Mishra
3 Capsize
4 Vision Charm
1 Ivory Tower
2 Seal of Cleansing
4 Memory Sluice
1 Counterbalance
1 Prosperity
1 Millstone
2 Armegeddon
3 Stasis
2 Traumatize
1 Wrath of God
2 Cancel
1 Extract
1 Millstone
1 Teferi's Puzzle Box
1 Howling Mine
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Telepathy
2 Boomerang
2 Forced Fruition
1 Collective Restraint
3 Counterspell
1 Icy Manipulator
1 Disenchant
12 Islands
3 Plains
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Feldon's Cane

Sideboard:
1 Hindering Touch
2 Boomerang
1 Extract
1 Ankh
1 Kismet
1 Wrath of God
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Arcane Scepter
1 Teferi's Puzzle Box
2 Cancel
1 Breakstabler's Crypt
1 In the Eye of Cahos

106th Place: Matthew LeBlanc
4 Taiga
5 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Mountains
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Root Maze
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Stingscourger
2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Null Rod

Sideboard:
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Firespout
1 Pithing Needle
1 Deglamer
3 Krosan Grip

107th Place: Andrew Fowler
6 Mountain
1 Mana Crypt
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Pithing Needle
3 Juggernaut
1 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Goblin Welder
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Sensei's Divinig Top
3 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Triskelion
2 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Duplicant
1 Ingot Chewer
2 Gorilla Shaman

Sideboard:
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Silent Arbiter


108th Place: Carlos Cardoba
3 Reef Shaman
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergil Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejery
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Black Lotus
4 Null Rod
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
7 Island

Sideboard:
3 Pithing Needle
4 Energy Flux
1 Echiong Truth
4 Propoganda
1 Arcane Laboratory
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Hurkyl's Recall



109th Place: Ethan Johnson
1 Stalking Vengeance
2 Street Wraith
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Angel of Despair
1 Darkblast
3 City of Brass
3 Dread Return
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bridge From Below
3 Golgari Thug
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Unmask
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Serum Powder
1 Ascendant Evincar
1 Cephalid Sage

Sideboard:
2 Sickening Shoal
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Pithing Needle
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Emerald Charm
1 Unmask

110th Place: Jay Carter
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Petrified Field
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
2 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge From Below
3 Dread Return
4 Ichorid
1 Flamekin Zealot
1 Angel of Despair
1 River Kelpie
1 Stalking Vengence
1 Ancestor's Chosen
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Unmask
4 Narcomoeba
4 Serum Powder

Sideboard:
2 Sickening Shoal
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Emerald Charm
3 Pithing Needle
1 Unmask
3 Chalice of the Void

111th Place: James Tamulvich
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Trinket Mage
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Time Vault
1 Mox Emerald
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Black Lotus
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
4 Duress
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mox Jet
1 Voltaic Key
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Echoing Truth
1 Skeletal Scrying

Sideboard:
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Rack and Ruin
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Sower of Temptation
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Tormod's Crypt

112th Placfe: Visna Harris:
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Ad Nauseam
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
1 Mind Twist
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Duress
1 Twincast
1 Repeal
1 Tinker
1 Time Vault
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ponder
1 Necropotence
1 Brainstorm
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Voltaic Key
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
4 Dark Ritual
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Chrome Mox
1 Sol Ring
3 Pact of Negation
1 Mana Drain
1 Chain of Vapor

Sideboard:
1 Mind's Desire
1 Time Walk
1 Darksteel Collossus
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Telepathy
1 Telemin Performance
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Echiong Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Extirpate
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Bitter Ordeal

113th Place: Paul Glantz

4 City of Brass
2 Petrified Field
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Strip Mine
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Sadistic Hypnotic
1 Eternal Witness
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge From Below
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Unmask
1 Darkblast
4 Serum Powder
4 Chalice of the Void

Sideboard:
1 Darkblast
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Emerald Charm
2 Wispare
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 10:56:30 pm by Smmenen » Logged

Smmenen
2007 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 6392


Smmenen
View Profile WWW
« Reply #304 on: May 27, 2009, 09:50:03 pm »

I posted the last 25 decklists, so that all 112 Waterbury lists have now been posted.  

Let the Analysis Begin!

Someone should post:

1) A Full Archetype Breakdown

2) Average Placement of Each Archetype in the Field to see what the best performing decks were

3) Breakdown of Ratio of Archetypes and by Engine as % of the Field versus % of:

a) Top 16
b) Top 8
c) Top 4

For example, Mana Drain decks were 30% of the Day 1 Waterbury Field, but they were 43.75% of the top 16, and the eventual tournament victor.

Also:

I have each decklist, so if there is interest, I could flag what things people proxied to get a sense of the need of the player base, and the average number of proxies, etc.    

Let the analysis begin!
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 10:07:52 am by Smmenen » Logged

Troy_Costisick
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1804


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #305 on: May 28, 2009, 06:25:06 am »

I have each decklist, so if there is interest, I could flag what things people proxied to get a sense of the need of the player base, and the average number of proxies, etc.    

This, I think, could be very important.  I would be especially interested in any card that is not on the reserve list that was proxied in any sizeable number.

For reference, reserve list link is: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpolicy

Peace,

-Troy
Logged

Diakonov
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 758


Hey Now


View Profile
« Reply #306 on: May 28, 2009, 09:09:26 am »

I broke it down by type/kill condition.

Any control decks are assumed to have Drains in them.  For Oath decks I assumed no Drains.  For the finer points:

D = had Drains in it (only if it was in question)
ND = did not (again, only if it was in question)
EU = European Control

1. Vault/Key
2. Dredge
3. Gro
4. Sligh
5. Vault/Key
6. Selkie
7. Painter/Welder (ND)
8. Vault/Key/Painter
9. Vault/Key
10. 5C Beats
11. Vault/Key/Bomberman
12. WAR MAMMOTH (Transmuter Uba Stax)
13. TPS
14. Tog/Meditate/Remora
15. Vault/Key
16. Belcher
17. Vault/Key/Welder
18. Vault/Key/Painter
19. Vault/Key/Drain Tendrils (EU)
20. Vault/Key
21. MUD
22. Vault/Key
23. Oath
24. Vault/Key
25. Vault/Key/Aggro Control
26. Vault/Key/Drain Tendrils (EU)
27. Vault/Key/Welder
28. Scepter Control
29. Landstill
30. Oath
31. UBW Fish
32. Vault/Key/Aggro Control
33. BUG Fish
34. Faerie Fish
35. 5C Stax
36. Vault/Key/Welder
37. MUD
38. Aggro Control
39. 3C Tendrils Combo
40. Workshop Aggro
41. Dredge
42. Vault/Key
43. GW Fish
44. Aggro Control (ND)
45. Vault/Key/Welder
46. 5C Stax
47. Vault/Key
48. 5C Stax
49. 5C Stax
50. RG Beats
51. Stax
52. Blue Workshop Aggro
53. Stax
54. Workshop Aggro
55. BGW Fish
56. Workshop Aggro
57. Vault/Key/Painter
58. Vault/Key
59. Vault/Key
60. Oath
61. Vault/Key/Aggro Control
62. Stax
63. 5C Tendrils Combo
64. Goblins
65. Affinity
66. Stax
67. GRW Beats
68. Dredge
69. Dredge
70. Oath (D)
71. Vault/Key/Welder
72. 5C Stax
73. Vault/Key
74. Painter/Welder
75. Drain Tendrils
76. MUD
77. TPS
78. Dragon
79. Vault/Key/Drain Tendrils (EU)
80. BUGW Fish
81. Dredge
82. Goblins
83. TPS
84. Painter/Bomberman (D)
85. BGW Fish
86. Vault/Key/Welder
87. BUG Aggro Control (ND)
88. Goblins
89. Tog/Meditate/Remora
90. Workshop Transmuter
91. RGB Beats
92. TPS
93. Dredge
94. 3C Tendrils Combo
95. TPS
96. Uba Stax
97. Vault/Key
98. Vault/Key/Welder
99. Dreadnought Aggro Control (ND)
100. Vault/Key
101. Blue Workshop Aggro
102. 5C Stax
103. 5C Stax
104. Mono-B Aggro
105. Stasis Prison
106. RG Beats
107. Workshop Aggro
108. Mono-U Merfolk Fish
109. Dredge
110. Dredge
111. Vault/Key
112. ANT w/Vault/Key
113. Dredge
« Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 10:43:03 pm by Diakonov » Logged

VINTAGE CONSOLES
VINTAGE MAGIC
VINTAGE JACKETS

Team Hadley

Troy_Costisick
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1804


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #307 on: May 28, 2009, 09:34:30 am »

So no one even tried Christmas Beatings.  Ugh, if only I could have made it to this tournament.   Sad
Logged

Smmenen
2007 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 6392


Smmenen
View Profile WWW
« Reply #308 on: May 28, 2009, 09:48:24 am »

"Vault/Key" is not an archetype.  It is a win condition, or that fuels it.   That's like saying:

"Tendrils of Agony"
or
"Inkwell Leviathan"
or more accurately:
"Yawgmoth's Will"

There are many archetypes that abuse Yawgmoth's Will, from TPS to Control Slaver.   I'd like to see an actual archetype breakdown.

Logged

Diakonov
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 758


Hey Now


View Profile
« Reply #309 on: May 28, 2009, 09:50:10 am »

Actually, #106 was basically Christmas Beatings.

Here's a breakdown by play-style.  Disclaimer: I took liberty with categorizing some of the hybrids such as Aggro Control variants.  Many of the higher placing Aggro Control decks were really more control decks with Tarmogoyfs main and the like.  By "control," I actually mean "combo control," but in particular I mean using the standard run through of tutors, moxen, Yawg, Tinker, a main draw engine like Thirst, a main type of counter such as Drain, etc.  There was a very small population that were definitely "control" but somewhat underpowered (i.e. Landstill), but it should be insignificant.  Also, decks such as TPS and Belcher were lumped together as "combo."  There is no perfect system to this, so I submit that this is a bit rough in certain parts.

1. Control
2. Dredge
3. Control
4. Aggro
5. Control
6. Aggro
7. Control
8. Control
9. Control
10. Aggro
11. Control
12. Stax
13. Combo
14. Control
15. Control
16. Combo
17. Control
18. Control
19. Control
20. Control
21. Workshop Aggro
22. Control
23. Oath
24. Control
25. Control
26. Control
27. Control
28. Control
29. Control
30. Oath
31. Aggro
32. Control
33. Aggro
34. Aggro
35. Stax
36. Control
37. Workshop Aggro
38. Control
39. Combo
40. Workshop Aggro
41. Dredge
42. Control
43. Aggro
44. Control
45. Control
46. Stax
47. Control
48. Stax
49. Stax
50. Aggro
51. Stax
52. Workshop Aggro
53. Stax
54. Workshop Aggro
55. Aggro
56. workshop Aggro
57. Control
58. Control
59. Control
60. Oath
61. Control
62. Stax
63. Combo
64. Aggro
65. Aggro
66. Stax
67. Aggro
68. Dredge
69. Dredge
70. Oath
71. Control
72. Stax
73. Control
74. Control
75. Control
76. Workshop Aggro
77. Combo
78. Combo
79. Control
80. Aggro
81. Dredge
82. Aggro
83. Combo
84. Control
85. Control
86. Control
87. Aggro
88. Aggro
89. Control
90. Workshop Aggro
91. Aggro
92. Combo
93. Dredge
94. Combo
95. Combo
96. Stax
97. Control
98. Control
99. Aggro
100. Control
101. Workshop Aggro
102. Stax
103. Stax
104. Aggro
105. Stasis
106. Aggro
107. Workshop Aggro
108. Aggro
109. Dredge
110. Dredge
111. Control
112. Combo
113. Dredge
Logged

VINTAGE CONSOLES
VINTAGE MAGIC
VINTAGE JACKETS

Team Hadley

Diakonov
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 758


Hey Now


View Profile
« Reply #310 on: May 28, 2009, 09:57:21 am »

"Vault/Key" is not an archetype.  It is a win condition, or that fuels it.   That's like saying:

"Tendrils of Agony"
or
"Inkwell Leviathan"
or more accurately:
"Yawgmoth's Will"

There are many archetypes that abuse Yawgmoth's Will, from TPS to Control Slaver.   I'd like to see an actual archetype breakdown.

By "Vault/Key" I basically mean Tezz.  It's tough to do those kinds of decks by archetype because there is so much overlap with style.  There are all sorts of combinations of draw, win conditions, utility effects, and tutor ratios (like when decks use Trinket Mage).

I figured that the win condition would basically speak for itself as far as what kind of archetype the deck came from.  For anyone who's confused, "Vault/Key" is NOT intended to represent a straight combo deck or anything other than a combo/control styled deck.
Logged

VINTAGE CONSOLES
VINTAGE MAGIC
VINTAGE JACKETS

Team Hadley

Smmenen
2007 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 6392


Smmenen
View Profile WWW
« Reply #311 on: May 28, 2009, 10:00:15 am »

"Vault/Key" is not an archetype.  It is a win condition, or that fuels it.   That's like saying:

"Tendrils of Agony"
or
"Inkwell Leviathan"
or more accurately:
"Yawgmoth's Will"

There are many archetypes that abuse Yawgmoth's Will, from TPS to Control Slaver.   I'd like to see an actual archetype breakdown.

I figured that the win condition would basically speak for itself as far as what kind of archetype the deck came from.

Win condition does not speak for itself because of the universality of win conditions in Vintage.

For example, Tendrils of Agony is used by Drain Tendrils, TPS, Ad Nauseam and Grim Long style decks (and more!), all of which are very different.   Similarly, Tinker +  Darksteel Colossus/Inkwell Leviathan are used by Grow decks, TPS, Control SLaver, Drain Tendrils, Remora decks, Fish decks, Tezzeret decks, etc.    

Similarly, Yawgmoth's Will decks encompass a giant range of archetypes, including that same list and more.  
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 10:04:40 am by Smmenen » Logged

Diakonov
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 758


Hey Now


View Profile
« Reply #312 on: May 28, 2009, 10:11:27 am »

I probably should have said "Tezz" in place of "Vault/Key," since that is the more generally accepted archetype name.  I was afraid of the opposite reaction, that people might complain that some lists called "Tezz" did not actually run any Tezzerets.

Also, it does get tricky with certain hybridizations such as Painter crossed with Tezz.  I thought it would be more clear that way.
Logged

VINTAGE CONSOLES
VINTAGE MAGIC
VINTAGE JACKETS

Team Hadley

Smmenen
2007 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 6392


Smmenen
View Profile WWW
« Reply #313 on: May 28, 2009, 10:15:50 am »

By your count, there were 22 Workshop decks out of a field of 112 (20%!) which once again shows that the Northeast is NOT a Workshop-less metagame.   I've made that point before, by showing how 2005 and 2006 era Waterburies had roughly the same numbers of shops.  

« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 10:37:59 am by Smmenen » Logged

wiley
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 764


garrettlwiley
View Profile
« Reply #314 on: May 28, 2009, 10:46:48 am »

Interesting that there were only 8 dredge players (7%).  Also interesting that there is such a huge gap between the one that top 8'ed ad the next one (2 and then 68/69).

It survived long enough to prey on all the drain decks.

Also interesting is that all of the control decks that made it to the top 16 save #7 and #14 (which is missing two cards and runs tez) use vault and key, and this trend continuous farther than that all the way to 28th place where you see the next control deck that doesn't use vault and key.  Ubiquitous win conditions of vintage or not that makes a pretty clear statement on what a person's future deck designs should be if you want to maximize your chances.  Of course, this is only one tournament and such things might not hold true overall.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 11:07:54 am by wiley » Logged

Team Arsenal
Smmenen
2007 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 6392


Smmenen
View Profile WWW
« Reply #315 on: May 28, 2009, 10:49:39 am »

if you spot any errors in the decklists, please PM me and I can make corrections before I throw out the lists. 
Logged

Smmenen
2007 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 6392


Smmenen
View Profile WWW
« Reply #316 on: May 28, 2009, 10:54:57 am »

Interesting that there were only 8 dredge players (7%).  Also interesting that there is such a huge gap between the one that top 8'ed ad the next one (2 and then 68/69).

It survived long enough to prey on all the drain decks.

Also interesting is that all of the control decks that made it to the top 16 save #7 and #14 (which is missing two cards and runs tez) use vault and key, and this trend continuous farther than that all the way to 28th place where you see the next control deck that doesn't use vault and key.  Ubiquitous win contentions of vintage or not that makes a pretty clear statement on what a person's future deck designs should be if you want to maximize your chances.  Of course, this is only one tournament and such things might not hold true overall.


I think there are actually 9 Dredge decks, according to Diakonov's breakdown.    After 2nd place, the next is 41st.
Logged

Smmenen
2007 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 6392


Smmenen
View Profile WWW
« Reply #317 on: May 28, 2009, 11:04:00 am »

Analyzing this data could actually be an opportunity to develop good metrics.   We don't have well-developed meta-metrics for analyzing entire tournament breakdowns.  I hope the community takes that on!
Logged

wiley
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 764


garrettlwiley
View Profile
« Reply #318 on: May 28, 2009, 11:07:20 am »

You're right, I missed that one.  So closer to 8%, but the rest of that stands.  Dredge, by its nature preys on drains, and normal control in general.  It was set up fairly well at this tournament so long as it could survive the first few rounds that seperated out most of the aggro decks.
Logged

Team Arsenal
Diakonov
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 758


Hey Now


View Profile
« Reply #319 on: May 28, 2009, 11:14:12 am »

Here's the other field percentages:

39% Control
19% Aggro
10% Combo
8% Dredge
4% Oath

Right before the tournament, I remember hearing nervous rumors that there was an overabundance of Dredge.  Just goes to show how quickly inaccurate news can travel.
Logged

VINTAGE CONSOLES
VINTAGE MAGIC
VINTAGE JACKETS

Team Hadley

Smmenen
2007 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 6392


Smmenen
View Profile WWW
« Reply #320 on: May 28, 2009, 11:25:44 am »

I'd like to see:

% of Drains
% of Rituals
% of Workshops
% of Null Rod decks

And see the % of those decks into the top 16, if anyone is willing to do that.  
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 06:04:47 pm by Smmenen » Logged

Smmenen
2007 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 6392


Smmenen
View Profile WWW
« Reply #321 on: May 28, 2009, 06:04:33 pm »

Metagame analysis:

I counted 24 Mishra's Workshop decks by hand (21.42% of the field), and 1 in the top 16 (6.25%).  

I count 14 Non-Workshop Null Rod decks (12.5%), that are a mix of Fish, Aggro, and Oath, among others.   These are decks with 3-4 Null Rods in the maindeck.   About 4-5 Workshop decks also ran maindeck Null Rods, which are not counted.   2 of those placed in the top 16 (12.5%).   Their were perfectly represented in the top 16.  

I count 42 decks with 3 or more Mana Drains maindeck in the field (37.5% of the field).  There were 7 Mana Drain decks in the top 16 (43.75%).   Even more strikingly, they were 59.375% of the top 32.   I should Graph all of this, but Mana Drain decks clustered heavily in the top 40 relative to other archetypes.  

I count 11 Dark Ritual decks in the field (9.8%), and 1 in the top 16 (6.25%).  Importantly, 54% of them finished in the bottom third.   Dark Ritual decks were very poor performers.  

I count 10 non-Workshop Bazaar of Baghdad decks in the field (8.9%), and 1 in the top 16 (6.25%).    Importantly, 8 of the 10 finished in the bottom half of the field.  And 6 of the 10 finished in the bottom third.   Bazaar decks were a very poor performer.      
By engine, Mana Drain decks were the best performing engine by far.   This should dispel the myth that Mana Drain decks win because they are most played.  They are most played because they are the best performers.  

If I've done the math right, the average place for:
* Mana Drain decks in the tournament was 40th place.  
* Bazaar decks was 76th place
* Dark Ritual decks is 70th place
* Mishra's Workshop decks is 59th place.

The average placement confirms what the proportions of the field to top 16 tell us.  

The best performing engine, in order, is:
1) Mana Drain
2) Mishra's Workshop
3) Dark Rituals
4) Dredge

Roughly speaking:
* The Drain decks cluster in the top 40 or so decks.  
*The Workshop decks cluster in the middle belt of the tournament, from 45-70.  
* The Dark Ritual decks are in the 4th quintile.
*The Bazaar decks clustered at the very bottom quarter of the field.  

The next thing to look at is the performance by archetype, not just engine.  
« Last Edit: May 28, 2009, 10:21:16 pm by Smmenen » Logged

Smmenen
2007 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 6392


Smmenen
View Profile WWW
« Reply #322 on: May 29, 2009, 04:11:07 pm »

Archtype Breakdown:

1.Tez Control
2. Dredge
3. Grow
4. Sligh
5. Tez Control/Slaver Hybrid
6. Selkie Fish
7. Painter Control Sans Drains
8. Remora Control/ Painter Control Hybrid
9. Tez Control
10. BGR Beatdown
11. Bomberman/Tez Control Hybrid
12. 5c Stax/Uba Stax hybrd
13. TPS
14. Remora Control
15. Tez Control
16. RG Belcher
17. Tez Control / Slaver Hybrid
18. Remora Control / Painter Hybrid
19. European Control
20. Tez Control
21. MUDu
22. Tez Control
23. Oath/Storm Hybrid
24. Tez Control
25. Tez Control / Grow Hybrid
26. European Control
27. Tez Control / Slaver Hybrid
28. Scepter Control
29. UR Landstill
30. Oath
31. UWB Fish
32. Tez Control / Grow Hybrid
33. BUG Fish
34. Faeries
35. 5c Stax
36. Tez Control/ Slaver Hybrid
37. Aggro MUD
38. Next Level Blue Control
39. Null Profusion Storm Combo
40. Mono Red Workshop Aggro
41. Dredge
42. Remora Control
43. GW Beatdown
44. Remora Control / Grow Hybrid
45. Tez control
46. 5c Stax
47. Tez Control
48. 5c Stax
49. 5c Stax
50. Mono Red Beatdown
51. Mono Red Stax
52. Mono Blue Workshop Aggro
53. 5c Stax
54. Mono Red Workshop Aggro
55. GWB Beatdown
56. Mono Red Workshop Aggro
57. Remora Control / Painter Hybrd
58. Tez Control
59. Tez Control
60. Oath
61. Remora Control
62. Uba Stax
63. Grim Long
64. GOblins
65. Affinity
66. Mono Red Stax
67. GWR Beatdown
68. Dredge
69. Dredge
70. Oath
71. Tez Control
72. 5c Stax
73. Tez Control
74. Painter Control
75. TPS/ Drain Tendrils Hybrid
76. MUD hybrid
77. TPS
78. Worldgorger Dragon Combo
79. European Control
80. BUGW Fish
81. Dredge
82. Goblins
83. TPS
84. Bomberman/ Painter Hybrid
85. GWB Beatdown
86. Tez Control / Painter Hybrid
87. BUG Fish
88. Goblins
89. Remora Control
90. Mono Blue Workshop Aggro
91. BGR Beatdown
92. TPS
93. Dredge
94. Grim Long
95. TPS
96. Mono Red Workshop Aggro
97. Tez Control
98. Tez Control
99. Deez's Naughts
100. Tez Control
101. Mono Blue WOrkshop Aggro
102. 5c Stax
103. 5c Stax
104. Mono Black Beatdown
105. UW Garbage
106. GR Beatdown
107. Mono Red Workshop Aggro
108. Mono Blue Fish/Merfolk
109. Dredge
110. Dredge
111. Tezzeretless Tez Control
112. Ad Nauseam
113. Dredge
Logged

Troy_Costisick
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1804


View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #323 on: May 29, 2009, 05:27:25 pm »

111. Tezzeretless Tez Control
112. Ad Nauseam
113. Dredge

That's a little surprising, honestly.  I would have though that the archetypes themselves would have gotten one or two wins on their own.  Must have been some horrorific pairings for these players in the first two rounds.
Logged

Diakonov
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 758


Hey Now


View Profile
« Reply #324 on: May 30, 2009, 10:39:41 pm »

105. UW Garbage

lol

This is a fancier breakdown than mine.  I see that you intended the list to be more specific when you said "by archetype."  I'll rename mine to type/kill condition.
Logged

VINTAGE CONSOLES
VINTAGE MAGIC
VINTAGE JACKETS

Team Hadley

Eastman
Guest
« Reply #325 on: May 31, 2009, 08:57:07 pm »

LOVE what is being done here.

Building off the work of others.

Breakdown by archetype, with 1-ofs excluded (Hybrids grouped to the leading component):

1. TezTypecontrol:              22
2. 5cStax:                             9
3. Dredge:                            8
4. TPS:                                  6
5. Mono Red Workshop Ag:  5
6. GWB/R Beatdown:            4
6. Oath:                                4
6. RemoraControl:                4
9. BUG(orBUGw) Fish:           3
9. European Control:            3
9. Goblins:                             3
9. Mono Blue Workshop Ag:  3
13. Grim Long:                        2
13. Mono Red STAX:              2
13. Mud:                                 2
13. Painter:                            2
13. BGRBeatdown:                 2
13. Bomberman:                     2

*NOTE: There were 20 singleton archetypes


Archetypes to a greater level of generality but not to the level of engine:


1. Vault/Key/Drain: 26
2. Rod Beats/fish etc. (Rod): 19
3. Workshop Lock (Stax/Mud): 14
4. Workshop Aggro: 10
5. Storm Combo:   10
6. Dredge: 8
7. Oath: 4
8. European Control: 3
9. Bomberman: 2
10. Painter: 2

Top 16 success rate:
1. Vault/Key/Drain: 5/26                      = 19.23% Success Rate
2. Rod Beats/fish: 3/19                        = 15.8%   Success rate
3. Dredge: 1/8                                     = 12.5%   Success Rate
4. Storm: 1/10                                      = 10%      Success Rate
5. Workshop Lock: 1/14                        = 7.15%  Success Rate
6. Worskhop Aggro: 0/10                                = 0.00%  Success rate


?. painter: 2/2 = 100% (not statistically significant, but strong indication that it is a strong archetype)
?. bomber: 1/2 =  50% Success Rate (not really statistically sig.)  
?. Charbelcher: 1/1 (not statistically significant)
?. Gro: 1/1 (not statistically significant)


Statistically Significant Findings:

1. Vault/Key/Drain based decks are very good (well obviously)
2. Workshops are lousy  


Quote from: smmenen
If I've done the math right, the average place for:
* Mana Drain decks in the tournament was 40th place.  
* Bazaar decks was 76th place
* Dark Ritual decks is 70th place
* Mishra's Workshop decks is 59th place.
One methodology point.  Since people tend to just drop when they are eliminated from top 16 contention, I think using the overall numbers and averaging, as you've done here, is a little flawed.  Certainly it is accurate to a degree, but I'm not sure that the distinction between 60th place average and 70th place average necessarily conveys archetype strength information.  That could just as easily be because of a tendency for particular players or particular decks to drop.  For example I think ichorid players are especially unlikely to play after they are not in contention, this factor alone is probably strong enough to account for them winding up last in this analysis.  
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 09:03:53 pm by Eastman » Logged
Smmenen
2007 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 6392


Smmenen
View Profile WWW
« Reply #326 on: June 01, 2009, 09:47:18 am »

I think that's right.  Using average placements should be taken with a grain of salt, at best, since there is a wild variance in the bottom half where people often just dropped.   Still, it can tell us something. 



Logged

Smmenen
2007 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 6392


Smmenen
View Profile WWW
« Reply #327 on: June 01, 2009, 09:55:44 am »

In his column today, Maro says:

Quote
(More on mana burn in a column a few weeks from now.)

Impending 10th E rules change?

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/41
Logged

Smmenen
2007 Vintage World Champion
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 6392


Smmenen
View Profile WWW
« Reply #328 on: June 07, 2009, 07:36:23 pm »

I went through all of the Day 1 Waterbury decklists again, and noted the number of proxies per deck.   

Here are some stats, with more to come (ask me questions and I'll try to answer):

26 players (23%) used zero proxies.   However, only twenty-two decklists used more than 10 proxies.    The large majority of players (57%) ran between 0 and 10 proxies.   

What percentage of those players used all 15? 

Only 8 players in the entire 113 player tournament used 15 proxies.   

Well, what about the number of players who ran 14?  Two players used exactly 14.   And what about the number of players who used 13?  3 players used 13 proxies. 
 
So what are people proxying?   By far the most common thing that people proxied were Moxen and other power nine.  Next, the most commonly proxied cards were Time Vault and Library of Alexandria.   Alot of Bazaars and Shops were also proxied.   Most TPS/Storm pilots proxied Grim Tutors and Imperial Seals.   

A minor number of Dual lands and Fetchlands were also proxied.

However, ALOT of players proxied these cards:

* Tolarian Academy (TONS of people proxied this)
* Pithing Needle (many proxies of this)
* Tarmogoyf
* Thoughtseize

I'm not saying that these shouldn't be proxied, but this is essentially what allowing more than 10 proxies does.   Again, only twenty-two players out of 113 used more than 10 proxies, and most of those players were either abusing the system to run cards like this as proxies, OR they were playing TPS/Workshop decks.

Perhaps the greatest example of abusing a high proxy system is Ch4is Browne's (The Demonic Attorney) list.  He had 12 proxies: 2 Sower of Temptation, 1 Inkwell Leviathan, 1 Library of Alexandria, 2 Yixlid Jailer, 1 Pithing Needle, 3 Thoughtseize, 1 Meloku, the Clouded Mirror (and one proxy which is not noted).   

Here are my conclusions:
15 proxies is unnecessary, as virtually no one actually plays 15 proxies, and those that do are using cards that can easily be borrowed from other players. 
Time Vault is heavily proxied.  Allowing CE would make this card far more available.   CE Time Vault is pretty inexpensive. 
Power is the most proxied item, and allowing CE would help make it more accessible. 

Logged

Yare
Zealot
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1215


Playing to win

Yare116
View Profile
« Reply #329 on: June 07, 2009, 08:09:48 pm »

Here are my conclusions:
15 proxies is unnecessary, as virtually no one actually plays 15 proxies, and those that do are using cards that can easily be borrowed from other players.

Does the idea that 15 proxies is unnecessary necessarily follow from the fact that people usually didn't use the full 15 or close to the full 15? What about people who didn't run decks because they couldn't get the full package of moxen or mana drains that they wanted to run so they ran something else entirely, namely something that they had enough proxies for? I know that I personally have never considered running Stax because I know that I can't build the deck within most proxy limits (historically anyway, I could probably do it now). It's a lot easier to sleeve up fish almost entirely from your collection than it is to do the same with stax, and that's exactly what I did when I started getting serious about Vintage. I probably only proxied like 5 cards, but I would have preferred to be playing something else. Just a thought.

Also, I don't really have a problem with people proxying cheap cards, mainly because I've already made the investment in most of the big cards. If other players can perpetually put off buying expensive cards, I should be allowed to not periodically pick up the relatively cheap cards that sometimes come and go. I think it would be rather ironic to punish the people who have made the investment, while not punishing the ones who haven't.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 08:15:04 pm by Yare » Logged
Pages: 1 ... 9 10 [11] 12 13 ... 19
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.181 seconds with 19 queries.