That Time of Month

[Implacable]

   Well, it's that time of the month again.  That last, frenzied two-week period that comes before the next Banned & Restricted announcement.  For most formats, this is not even an event of notice; it's not like Standard or Block are going to get any attention.  But for Eternal players, the Banned & Restricted update is incredibly important.  As last May's unrestriction of Gush proved, B&R changes can change the format completely with a single adjustment. 
   Last May, for anyone living in a cave, the DCI restricted Gifts Ungiven, unrestricted Gush, and cleaned up the B&R list by additionally unrestricting Black Vise, Voltaic Key, and Mind Twist.  While the last three unrestrictions were simply much-needed and approved of housecleaning, the unrestriction of Gush was immediately controversial.  Wrote Dave Feinstein: "This is the un-restriction I disagree with 100%."  Stephen Menendian observed: "A few years ago I ran a tournament with Meandeckers piloting famous Vintage decks that were illegal due to restrictions.  4 Gush GroAtog beat *both* 4 Fact or Fiction BBS and 4 Necropotence Trix as well as 4 Academy decks[.]" 
   Why was such a potentially powerful card unrestricted?  Aaron Forsythe, in his article discussing the update , said this:
   "Gush has been restricted since 2003, the height of the Psychatog age. Psychatog is no longer the threat it once was. Bringing Gush back may restore some or all of 'Tog's power, but we're of the mind that the format has passed the toothy one by and that Gush is no longer a problem."
   By 'passing the toothy one by', he could by talking about the Feinstein Mox Tournament on August 12, with 12 Gushes in the Top 8 and two of them 'Tog decks.  He could also have meant Day 1 of the TMD Open, with 12 Gushes in the Top 8, with all of them being 'Tog decks.  Perhaps he meant Day 2 of the TMD Open, with 16 Gushes in the Top 8, and three 'Tog decks.  Or he could have meant the NorthCal Mox tournament, with 12 Gushes in the Top 8 and three 'Tog decks.
   It's not even that 'Tog is the best card in G.A.T., or even the primary kill condition.  Many players say that 'Tog is at best an ancillary win, a card that is usually useless and occasionally amazing.  What G.A.T. (Grow-A-Tog) does is simple; it plays an early Dryad or some disruption spells, drops a Fastbond midgame, then Gushes a couple of times, and plays Yawgmoth's Will.  There are countless variations, but what G.A.T.'s gameplan hinges on is being able to play 4 of the second-best draw spell ever printed, and then play them again.  And gain mana.  In G.A.T., Gush is Night's Whispers and Dark Ritual glued together; card advantage and mana, at the same time.
   Now, many people would point out, and rightly so, that having 2-3 Gush decks in most Top 8s is not a sign of format domination.  I agree.  Is format domination the only basic for restriction?  No.  Reasons for restriction range from dominance, to warping of the metagame, to a card being unfun.  Gush lazes in the second category.  The problem is not that G.A.T. dominates the format; it is that it dominates traditional Drain Control decks.  It just destroys them.  They cannot keep up with a deck that has more card-advantage, cheaper cards, and better threats.  All of these traits are permitted by Gush; if Force of Will glues the format together, Gush does so with G.A.T.  Because G.A.T. is by far the most popular deck in the metagame, Drain control turnout is suppressed.  This in turn shortens games (which is unfun, for most [Criterion 3]), and allows Combo to run rampant (Criterion 2).  Gush's effects, therefore, clearly meet the guidelines for restriction.
   Some advocate the restriction of Merchant Scroll; some the restriction of Flash.  I don't disagree with them.  Those cards are fundamentally unfair as well.  But to me, the most important card to see go in September is Gush.  It destroys the metagame that we enjoyed so much in the Spring of 2006.  I can remember the happiness of that period; I can remember the posts expressing satisfaction with a balanced and entertaining format.  I like the idea of regular unrestrictions of very good cards; it shakes up the format and makes it exciting.  Wizards, I love what you've done with the place, but I'd like my old house back.  Please, restrict Gush in September.

[LordHomerCat]

So wait a second.  The reason you don't like Gush is because it makes GAT better than Gifts or Slaver (or other classic Drain control)?  That just seems like an awful reason to me to restrict it.  Just because you don't like the current best drain deck (GAT) doesn't mean its engine should be killed.  Combo is viable (Flash), Shops are viable, Fish is viable (URBana).  I mean, there are a ton of merchant scrolls floating around, and 2-3 clear best decks, but in any other format a setup like this would be incredible, with a strong aggro-control deck, a strong combo deck, and a strong prison-control deck at the top and various metagame decks lurking beneath ready to be tuned to have a good shot (Goblins, various Fish, Mindcensor-Magus decks). 

Again, you say Gush is unfun, but look at a deck like Flash.  It is 10 times less interesting, because when Flash overpowers you the game ends on turn 1.  Flash is a much better candidate for restriction than Gush, just because Gush decks can be attacked more easily and with more margin for error.  If you try to attack Flash but don't get a turn, its pretty hard to play most of your hate.  This doesn't happen with GAT, which makes it inherently "more fun" since both players get to play the game.

As a side note, I don't see Gifts or Slaver doing a better job of containing Flash than GAT does.  Both had slower engines and less useful draw in the early game, not to mention GAT runs more disruption than either of those decks.  In actuality, GAT does a terrific job of keeping combo down (as it crushes Long style decks even better than Meandeck Gifts because of its absurd amount of disruption). 

I don't think Gush should be re-restricted.  If anything needs to go, Merchant Scroll is the most broken non-brainstorm card right now.  After that, Flash is a consideration (on the unfun principle), but I'd be willing to wait and see how losing Scroll would affect it first.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Does

6. Prohibited Topics and Actions

Banned and Restricted List Hypothetical Topics: While it is ultimately FINE to talk about the effects of changes and what you agree with and do not, it's NOT okay to discuss modifying lists in a forum structure that always degenerates.

Apply to this thread?  If so, shhhh.

If not, I agree that you're barking up the wrong tree.  Merchant scroll is the enabler for both GAT and Flash.  However, I think Merchant Scroll is actually rather fair when played in GAT and previously in MDG.  (Although the T1 idea of 'fair' is pretty warped at this point.)

People have argued convincingly that even with only 1 scroll, Flash would still be busted, so Flash would need to go before scroll does.  With Flash out of the way, Ichorid would see more play which adds another bad matchup (along with Stax) into the mix.  This should be enough to keep even a 4x scroll GAT from truly dominating (see http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=33815.0).  While GAT is really good, maybe even the top deck, I still think that it's prominence is more a matter of people liking to play it just as much as it's ability to beat the other contenders.

[zeus-online]

Copy/Paste from my post in the community forum:

I'm pretty happy with the current restrict list though, with a few exceptions...going:

- Dream halls
- Grim monolith
- Burning wish
- Time spiral
- Enlightened tutor
- Mox diamond
+ Flash
+ Gush
+ Merchant scroll

...would probably set it just right imho...But really, most of those cards wouldn't affect anything at all!
Here's my thoughts on these cards:
- Dream halls - INSANE effect..but 3UU...move along, nothing to see here.
- Grim monolith - Wow, a mana vault for 2 mana?...urh, nothing amazing, both cabal and dark ritual are better..oh and monolith/power artifact is kinda casual Razz
- Burning wish - Yeah, yeah long bla bla....they now got Grim tutor which is FAR better...This card is rather innocent.
- Time spiral - 4UU...Yup, that's all i got to say.
- Enlightened tutor - Well this could fuel a turn 2 necropotence based deck, but is that really all that bad? Gives you plenty of time to respond, this is vintage, not type2.
- Mox diamond - Vintage decks dosn't play lands, well they do, just not enough....I suppose it could be broken...somehow...


And a little bonus:
Merchant scroll has been used for a long while, going back to keeper where it was primarily used to find ancestral recall...Which honestly wasn't all that bad.
Then hulk smash came to power and many lists ran several scrolls, mostly to patch up the intu/AK draw engine, which again wasn't so bad....Then we enter the "Scroll-era":
Gifts emerges and uses scroll as both protection, fetching bounce and counters to force the combo through, aswell as draw-engine by getting ancestral recall...The DCI nerfs the deck by restricting gifts, but scrolls are still being used heavily, now as a combo enabler in Flash and a card-drawer in GAT...
With those innovations i really think scroll has reached "Broken" and need to go...All the top decks are running a full set, and that is severely nerfing the rest of the meta.
Gush is just waaaay too unfair, it's easily stronger then about half the restrict list.
Flash, well it's just too fast, even for vintage...It's making long look balanced and that deck was also regarded with as much fear as Gifts was.

 /Zeus

[desolutionist]

it is that it dominates traditional Drain Control decks.  It just destroys them.  They cannot keep up with a deck that has more card-advantage, cheaper cards, and better threats.

What?  Gush is the most expensive card to have against traditional Drain decks as it gets Drained ALL THE TIME.  There is no competition here; Drain Control > GAT.

[Setnakt]

Personally I'm not convinced forcing Flash decks to go -3 Scroll would seriously impact that deck's metagame presence. And the consensus seems to be that Scroll's numerical prominence is directly caused by Flash and Gush themselves; I'm not sure that is really the strongest case for restriction, even if you were to elaborate on a critical mass analysis of engine redundancy. I just know that it's a good idea to also look at what the card is fetching in terms of power balance, which seems to be the reasoning for Gift's restriction.

On the issue of Gush itself, I get the impression that people just feel uncertain in general about the overall effect the card has as a 4-of on the metagame when taken with the usual dynamically changing factors. It's not really helping non-interactive combo, if that says anything about any negative Fun Factor.

I would think that eventually these issues would be a case of comparing actual archetype evolution. In other words, what kind of a format are you looking to create? Or, is Drain-based control suppressed by the presence of GAT, or is it just the nature of being in a format with Ichorid and Flash?

[Aardshark]

Copy/Paste from my post in the community forum:

I'm pretty happy with the current restrict list though, with a few exceptions...going:

- Dream halls
- Grim monolith
- Burning wish
- Time spiral
- Enlightened tutor
- Mox diamond
+ Flash
+ Gush
+ Merchant scroll
* * *
 /Zeus

I second this (and I'm usually pretty conservative on B&R issues).  Flash for the "unfun" factor; Gush for creating an overpowering and dominant archetype; and Merchant Scroll for overwhelming omnipresence in the metagame.  

Standing alone I'm the most "meh" about merchant scroll's restriction (I'm struggling to distinguish brainstorm, which I most definitely do NOT want restricted).  I'd be fine with hitting Gush and Flash and leaving scroll alone.  However, if the DCI wanted to take out scroll and see what happens with the other two, I could live with that also.

@ desolutionist:
While the prospect of a 5 mana windfall is enticing, in practice I've found that mana drain is more often than not unable to contain the flood of inexpensive spells gushing forth from GAT.

[MirariKnight]

Personally I think Gush is not a problem. Flash is much, much worse. Scroll enables both decks but then we start seeing Imperial Seal being run, MAYBE even Personal Tutor (lol). Flash has Trinisphere syndrome. It's not fun, and there's not much interaction going on. There's not much you can do about it.
GAT on the other hand sees a ton of play. This is because people love the deck, and it's really fun as well as probably being the best deck in the format. Gush is powerful but it's % of top 8's seem to be about on par with its % of total decks. It's the difference between dominating and popular. Also, I think Gush decks, especially GAT, take a lot of skill to be played well. They use Merchant Scroll fairly, unlike Flash. If you don't know how to play it, GAT sucks. It rewards skill a lot imo and that seems to be quite fair, unlike Flash which is 99% luck.
Also stated was that if Flash goes, Ichorid probably comes back, and GAT has trouble with that matchup, which should completely stabilize the format imo. There would be aggro, aggro control, prison, and hate. Seems pretty good to me.

[horse the name]

And the consensus seems to be that Scroll's numerical prominence is directly caused by Flash and Gush themselves; I'm not sure that is really the strongest case for restriction

I agree with this 100%. If Gush and Flash (the real problem cards) are restricted, what is there to fetch with Merchant Scroll that makes it restriction worthy? Ancestral? Force? Those seem like pretty fair plays to me.

[The Demon]

I think there is a serious issue in the vintage meta game that no one is really talking about.  If you restrict Flash then GAT is hands down the best deck in the format bar none.  If you restrict Gush then Flash is the best deck in the format bar none.  I really feel like  both decks are broken, really really broken.  I have heard and read several times that Flash is one of the best combo decks ever.I would agree with this on the simple fact that the deck gets an absurd amount of turn one or turn two kills with more then adequate protection.  It is blatantly obvious that GAT is one of if not the best control deck ever. If I walk into a tournament and GAT is gone but Flash is still unrestricted I am either playing Flash or a deck that is basically designed to beat flash first and foremost.  If I walk into a tournament and Flash is gone but Gush is still unrestricted then the same basic thing goes.  I started playing Vintage seriously last year, but I am not sure that there has ever been a meta game state like the one we do now. This is a serious question, when was the last time in the modern age of vintage where you had the best control deck ever and one of the best combo decks ever?  If I was given the power to handle the upcoming B and R period I would leave it alone for now in hopes of the meta game resolving itself.The only reasonable alternative in my eyes is restricting both flash and gush (I guess gush as more of a precautionary measure).

[TopSecret]

I think Scroll should get the boot because it's a very strong tutor
that has repeatedly helped the performance of degenerate Vintage decks.

Flash can get the boot for the same reason Trinisphere did:
it's just not fun.

I don't play Gro-Atog, so, I'm not sure if it'd still be quite so broken without four Scrolls.

[The Demon]

I think Scroll should get the boot because it's a very strong tutor
that has repeatedly helped the performance of degenerate Vintage decks.

Flash can get the boot for the same reason Trinisphere did:
it's just not fun.

I don't play Gro-Atog, so, I'm not sure if it'd still be quite so broken without four Scrolls.

Not to insult you, but I always found the "not fun" argument to be completely subjective.  Drains aren't a "fun" card to play against when you are playing a stax deck.  Duress is not a fun card to play against when your playing combo, Leyline of the void is not fun to play against if your running ichorid.  I think when you boil it down "not being fun" you start to get away from factual arguments and go strictly to opinion. You can argue that a deck is distorting the meta by showing the amount of hate players use against the said deck, and you can show that a deck is distorting the meta by showing an overly large amount of top eights placements etc etc etc.  You can argue that a card is broken and deserving of restriction by looking at the restriction list and the cards that are not on the restricted list (granted this slightly subjective in nature itself). However just stating that a card is not fun is not based on any real facts and should not be taken into any real consideration.  If you say "this card is not fun", and I reply "No, this card is fun" we just go around in circles. Once again I am not trying to come off as attacking you, and I tried to reword my argument to sound less abrasive.

[LotusHead]

The unrestriction of Gush might pave the way for the unrestriction of Trinisphere.  While piloting salvager decks, I never feared Trinisphere, unless they had EVERYTHING going for them and I had no Force (gawd hands).

The only thing I REALLY feared was Null Rod at the time (and I can't imagine the DCI ever restricting that).

We're Vintage, we can handle Trinisphere. We CAN handle Gush.  Flash is a little harder to disect.  (4 Force , X Pact of Negation, X-1 Misdirection?).

Trinisphere was the first DCI restriction ruling that I am aware of since I played competetive T1. The random restriction of Gifts was the 2nd. (but restriction, I mean we don't all agree with the need to restrict. Black Lotus = 1 per deck, OBVIOUSLY, Gifts? Trinisphere? Ok, Trinisphere pissed some people off, but Vintage adapted (see oracle text on the 10 basic lands...)

Maybe 4 Gush and 4 Trinisphere can co=exist.

[zeus-online]

I think it would be a mistake to allow 4 trinisphere, while type1 might be able to handle it, i really don't want the format to gain any more power, which is what happens when they start unrestricting stuff....Although some cards would obviously not cause much of a problem, and hence they should be unrestricted....I don't think trinisphere qualifies as not becomming much of a problem, that card is a real beating.

/Zeus

[asi]

I wouldn't unrestrict Trinisphere, either. The card really is no fun at all to play against and as long as Workshop isn't restricted, Trinisphere will be too good, in my opinion.

I'm no vintage expert, but seeing as most good tutors are restricted, maybe a Merchant Scroll restriction is justified. I'm uncomfortable with having non-ante Homelands cards being restricted, though...


Regarding Dream Halls: I just built this

 
1   Tolarian Academy      
4   Underground Sea      
4   Polluted Delta      
4   Flooded Strand      
2   Island      
4   Dream Halls      
1   Grim Monolith      
1   Mana Vault      
1   Black Lotus      
1   Mox Emerald      
1   Mox Jet      
1   Mox Pearl      
1   Mox Ruby      
1   Mox Sapphire      
1   Chrome Mox      
3   Meditate      
4   Force of Will [Pact of Negation?]      
4   Mana Drain      
4   Brainstorm      
1   Disrupt      
1   Merchant Scroll      
1   Ancestral Recall      
1   Time Walk      
1   Timetwister      
1   Time Spiral      
1   Mystical Tutor      
1   Yawgmoth's Will      
1   Demonic Tutor      
1   Vampiric Tutor      
1   Tendrils of Agony      
3   Dark Ritual      
3   Myojin of Seeing Winds   


I built it in like 5 seconds and it is of course not very good. But I'm not a vintage player, so I think Dreamhalls could be dangerous. I would still unrestrict it, though, because it needs a lot of easily disrupted setup to play Dream Halls (discard really crushes the deck, I think).

[zeus-online]

It's difficult to combo out with dream halls because you need something to filter through all the mana you are going to draw...The original deck ran Mana severance, but that's 4 dead cards...And it dosn't hit all the artifact mana.
Another thing about a dream halls deck is that most of the cards you want to cast with it are dead until you draw and resolve dream halls...Oh and it's sloooow. 3UU is alot.

The dream halls combo plan is so much worse then all of the current combo decks...Including: Flash, Long, Belcher, WGD combo.

/Zeus

[asi]

It's difficult to combo out with dream halls because you need something to filter through all the mana you are going to draw...The original deck ran Mana severance, but that's 4 dead cards...And it dosn't hit all the artifact mana.
Another thing about a dream halls deck is that most of the cards you want to cast with it are dead until you draw and resolve dream halls...Oh and it's sloooow. 3UU is alot.

The dream halls combo plan is so much worse then all of the current combo decks...Including: Flash, Long, Belcher, WGD combo.

/Zeus

Well, I tried the blue Myojin to draw enough cards so that lands don't matter. I think I ccould cut Meditate to have only playable cards, except for the Myojin, which at least can be Brainstormed away. In testing, I found the biggest problem is lack of cards in your hand; what I mean is that it will cost you 1-5 cards to even cast Dreamhalls (Lotus, Ritual, Mana Drain and possibly Show and Tell help here), then Dreamhalls itself, Force+a card to pitch in order to protect Dreamhalls (this effect could be reduced by Pact of Negation/Duress instead of Force), than a card draw plus a card to pitch. That's 4-10 cards to go off, and really much in such a format.

With 4 Drain, 4 Force and possibly Duress+Pact the deck could be created in a more controllish way, but I'm too lazy to test this out.

By the way, I like some synergies here. Draining a hardcast Trike/Sundering Titan/Hulk etc. can give you access to a hardcast Myojin; Mana Drain also helps with the you need for Dream Halls.

By the way, is it right that you can pitch cards to play cards in your graveyard with Will respectively from your library with Future Sight?

[Setnakt]

On the topic of Gush v Trinisphere, I will step in, but first a caveat that my experiences with current GAT are limited to my testing, and I am currently without a team and much of my perspective comes really from testing in a vacuum and none of it with recent tournament experience. In short, I feel I have enough understanding to go into a tournament without The Fear and with a largely correct understanding of the right plays, but if you want to argue points by crunching numbers please take my perspective with a grain of salt.

Playing GAT, I feel confident about my matchup against currently established incarnations of Stax. I win an awful lot of game 1s, just because it's very difficult to get a true hard lock against a deck that runs so much cheap draw and responses that they never really run out of steam, while the Stax deck eventually does. The game states I consistently lose are when they get, for example, both Sphere and an active Smokestack while I'm short on permanents, whether from being early enough in the game or if I've overextended with Gush, or when they get enough ancillary lock components to make sure I can't actually regain momentum, but the fact is that Stax is a less consistent powerhouse; they only run one Memory Jar, and so many ways to find it. Jar will consistently allow them to recoup and put me in a losing position, but its game presence is inconsistent. Overall I couldn't give you a number even if I wanted to in terms of wins, but I feel like I've just won a lot of game 1s, and I feel it's largely because I can keep up with their most important threats with the knowledge that I have the threat of inevitability.

For the sideboard games I believe my matchup improves because most of my sideboard is dedicated to them. I don't need to Scroll for Drain or Force or whatever nearly as much because I run 4 Ancient Grudge plus some Mutations and so forth. I don't know that my current sideboard configuration is beyond dispute, but I do know that I feel comfortable siding out all my Duresses and replace them with card advantage generating answers that require them to already have invested tempo in their lock pieces. The answers serve to consistently limit their options rather significantly, usually rendering their present effect on the gamestate nil and sometimes directly improving mine.

Overall I expect that I will lose games to Stax but, whether from blind confidence or from more dynamic factors involving efficiency of answers vs inconsistency of threats, I feel I have a good shot at sweeping them at least some percentage of the time, and that does say something about the overall matchup.

Now that I've given some illustration of the current issue of Shop vs Gush, the issue with Trinisphere is this: most of the time, if I don't have Force, against turn one Workshop Trinisphere, I should just scoop. The rest of the time I'll probably still lose anyways. Thankfully, they only have one of those, but if you really did want to turn a strong matchup into one in which I suddenly lose 30% more games than before or whatever, unrestricting Trinisphere is the way to do it. The problem is, I don't know if that's the right thing to do. All of a sudden, where we once had interactive games in which I feel I have the (or at least some) advantage, suddenly I very well might be at a significant disadvantage because they have a card that will literally make me lose the game before I even get a chance to play any cards at all. As I've seen it, the consensus is that "just mull into Force" is not a respectable gameplan against Trinisphere plays or a significant argument for its existence as a 4-of. It would also ignore the whole dynamic of baiting with 2Sphere, or anything else in the deck really.

It seems pretty well agreed that Shop decks need a new evolutionary step, and the Metalworker combo/otherwise dump your hand turn 2 concepts seem promising. For all the talk about Staxless Stax builds however I do feel Smokestack is an important card vs GAT, but regardless, the lesson seems to be that the current identity of Shop decks is not set in stone and can improve based on the resources of the existing card pool, so I wouldn't jump to arguing for unrestrictions yet on really any basis. Trinisphere is a dangerous card and multiples will cause headaches.

As it stands, Stax is not a pushover, and it wouldn't surprise me that at my next tournament I could even lose a match to it. However, I do find at least the impressions of such a dynamic change as +3 Trinisphere instructive, as what is quite possibly a good matchup becomes randomly horrible half the time because of one card.

The lesson does seem to be that patience is the most valuable commodity when manipulating the mechanics of the format.

[Will]

If you really want to know the way to break dream halls i will tell you.  Play Dream Halls, Play Grozoth pitching some blue card.  Find 4 searing wind and play 2 dealing 20 damage.  Not pretty but efficient.  BTW Flash, Gush, and Merchant scroll being restricted would solve most of the problems facing type 1. 

[Bubbydan]

  Flash needs to be restricted. It makes vintage feel more like blackjack...sure there is some skill involved, but its mostly luck.

  I am on the edge with Gush....I personally would have liked to see a metagame with both Gifts and Gush unrestricted. I think it would have been interesting

  Merchant Scroll could be restricted...than again it might not need to be. If they restrict both flash and gush than it needs not to be, but with either being unrestricted than Merchant Scroll needs the axe.

Dan

[defector]

This could be interesting. i was personally shocked that Gush was ever taken off the list. I remember some article from years ago, maybe Menendian wrote it that pretty clearly showed Gush as stronger than A-call. Merchant scroll may be the last tutor with CC 2 or less and axing it probably wouldn't kill us. It's hard to say. Unrestricting Dream Halls would be completely harmless. Mox Diamond might have some synergy with Crucible of Worlds, so I am a little nervous about it coming off the list. Not much, but a little. Burning Wish can go. Flash is nasty, but can we say that we have had enough time to adjust to this list?? Maybe the same could be said for Gush. Un restricting Trinispere would make me happy as Trinistax is a very strong list. It would also wipe out storm combo, which wouldn't bother me at all. I am anxiously awaiting the annoucnement, the format might be getting a shake!
tom

[ErkBek]

I think Restricting Flash and Merchant Scroll, but leaving Gush unrestricted would be very interesting.

[RaZe]

While I'm surprised that Gush was unrestricted, I rather like the higher power vintage currently has. Everyone seem to agree that unrestricting Dream Halls wouldn't even be noticed by the Vintage population, I'm perplexed that no one has mentioned Fact of Fiction. With Gifts gone, FoF seems to be the next best thing to sink drain mana into. Although Gifts coming back out from the restricted list is not out of the question considering the power level of Flash and Gush, and I think it is something that should be seriously considered.

But so as not to turn Vintage into a "which merchant scroll deck to play?" meta game, Trinisphere could help balance things out, although I have my reservations on that suggestion not because Trinisphere is too busted for Vintage, but because 4 Serum Powder + 4 Trinisphere might be disastrously more powerful compared to any "4 Merchant Scroll + 4 <insert blue instant> deck. But hey, maybe Black Vise coming off the list will finally have a purpose aside from casual decks.

By the way, how many Library of Alexandria does a deck need for it to be too busted? Is there a certain deck design any of you can see being able to compete against the current meta game on the backbone of multiple LoAs? Or if one or more of my suggested cards were to be taken off the list as well? Just a question though...

[Dxfiler]

I think there is a serious issue in the vintage meta game that no one is really talking about.  If you restrict Flash then GAT is hands down the best deck in the format bar none.  If you restrict Gush then Flash is the best deck in the format bar none.

If you restrict merchant scroll both decks remain serious contenders and other decks can come back into play and dance with these two beasts instead of being on completely different playing fields.

I've thrusted myself knee deep into this format since the unrestrictions and been very careful about saying anything flat out had to go, but after playing in alot of tourneys and holding one of my own... and watching yet another gat vs. gat final unfold at gencon (admiteddly with 2 amazing players behind them), I think the one card that has to go come september is Merchant Scroll.

It's the enabler for both decks and even if flash restricted and gush got re-restricted, scroll would just warp its way into something else and run wild, like scroll tendrils which is just short of tier 1 right now in my opinion. 

Merchant scroll in my eyes has a very similar evolution to gifts ungiven in that it has remained out of the spotlight for a long time but always mutated and evolved as being a key piece in the best deck or one of the best decks every season.  Merchant Scroll, unlike gifts, doesn't immediately win the game when cast, but it creates very hard game states to work out of and does it commonly because you can run 4 of them.  Merchant Scroll into Gush, Ancestral, Force, MisD and Pact are the most common searches with the card... and all are good at different times.  The beauty of 4 scroll is you can just cherry pick whatever you need with the first one then do it again with another one. 

You can't really counter scroll most of the time (unless against flash) because then you're left without a counter if they just topdeck what they needed anyway, which is always the problem with countering tutors... luckily pretty much all the tutors are restricted... except this one.

I think there's pretty much no argument that merchant scroll is essentially a tutor, and it's a hell of alot stronger than many on the restricted list... including slightly odd younger brother personal tutor. 

If they restrict merchant scroll, I think the metagame would just flat out be healthier.  GAT and Flash still remain strong as hell, and people who don't want to run either of those decks aren't forced to run Stax.  Fish and Ichord and Bomberman could actually compete close to a level of these other two decks.  Still probably not on the same level as flash or gat, but at least they'd be in the same ballpark (please don't point to me as fish persevering in this meta... my waterbury performance was a fluke :p).

I just want to see multiple decks at or near the top... not just GAT and flash duking it out with stax just under it hoping to nut draw every game in order to have a chance.  Right now it's just merchant scroll decks and everything else. 

'OMG Feinstein you never give statistics to back up your outrageous claims'

Ok... here you go-

Waterbury Day 1- 20 merchant scroll in top 8 (with 4 scroll on scroll finals) 14 more in 9th-16th placing decks
Waterbury Day 2- 18 merchant scroll in top 8 (with a 4 scroll deck winning)

8/11 42 person myriad: 12 merchant scroll in top 8
8/12 48 person my tournament- 15 scroll in top 8 (with scroll on scroll finals)

This is just off the top of my head tracking local tourneys over 40 people.  Also keep in mind the massive turnout of Gencon (8 rounds meaning over 128 people) ended up with a 4 scroll on 4 scroll finals (no way steve or rich would play only 3).  Even if Steve and Rich end up as the only merchant scrolls in top 8 of vintage worlds (which I highly doubt), the results speak loud and clear.

You can point out that it's good players winning with scroll decks, and you'd be right.  You can point out that players can still do well not running scroll decks, and you'd also be right. 

The problem is that if you're not running a scroll deck, you can get in there with belcher or stax or sui black or goblins whatever else has won 20-30 person tourneys lately, but in the long run the merchant scroll player is just going to outperform you because they simply have stronger cards to work with, and they can grab any of them at any time with four merchant scroll.  That just doesn't seem right to me.

- Dave Feinstein

[The Demon]

I think there is a serious issue in the vintage meta game that no one is really talking about.  If you restrict Flash then GAT is hands down the best deck in the format bar none.  If you restrict Gush then Flash is the best deck in the format bar none.

It's the enabler for both decks and even if flash restricted and gush got re-restricted, scroll would just warp its way into something else and run wild, like scroll tendrils which is just short of tier 1 right now in my opinion. 

Do you really think so? It was my experience that before the meta shift many decks had game against tendrils combo. Would the meta game that we once had not be very similar barring the presence of gifts? 

[Scyther]

Unrestrict 3Sphere? WTF! I thought everyone was happy that it is gone? The unfun and unfair factor is imo just too big to allow a 4of again. The wizzards will give a sh** to bring it back. Even more they will give FOF a chance again...

Flash HAS to go. Everyone denies it is out of his mind imo. Together With restricting Merchant Scroll the Metagame should stabilize. Without Scrolls the Combopart in Gat is heavily weakened and mutates from a "the beast" to a upper tier dec wich should be ok.

I would laugh so loud if Gush should go one month after it was unrestrict. ^_^
It would be humilating for the wizzards ... maybe thats reason enough..  hrhr
 

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

I could'nt agree more with Dave Feinstein's comments.

If you restrict merchant scroll both decks remain serious contenders and other decks can come back into play and dance with these two beasts instead of being on completely different playing fields.

that's almost everything I can say at the moment, because that's exactly what I am feeling, too.
Merchant scroll is a two mana tutor. Yes, you can't get will with it directly. but anything else. (and if it's only a toolbox like in trinket/moon decks).
On another note, I think that if Flash were gone, other decks could emerge to fight GAT because GAT does seldom win on turn 1 (although there are situations where the game is almost over...).

[Implacable]

that's almost everything I can say at the moment, because that's exactly what I am feeling, too.
Merchant scroll is a two mana tutor. Yes, you can't get will with it directly. but anything else. (and if it's only a toolbox like in trinket/moon decks).
On another note, I think that if Flash were gone, other decks could emerge to fight GAT because GAT does seldom win on turn 1 (although there are situations where the game is almost over...).

First, I agree entirely with Mr. Feinstein.  Scroll is ridiculous, it will always fuel ridiculous decks, and it should go.  However, I want to point out that by saying 'G.A.T. rarely wins the game on Turn 1,' you are setting up a fallacious comparison between G.A.T. and the rest of the format.  G.A.T., unlike Flash, has a fundamental turn of 2.  However, a deck with Mana Drains having a fundamental turn of 2 is absolutely insane.  There has never been another Drain-deck with a fundamental turn of 2, because that is too fast for a deck which uses the most recognizable 'control' card.  Having the game essentially wrapped up on turn 2 is a situation that I encounter a lot while playing with or against G.A.T., and that's a pace with which the rest of the format can't keep up.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

Don't you think that there could emerge new decks that have a good chance against GAT if they didn't have to fear turn 1 flash brokeness?
I think that with merchant scroll gone, both top decks would still be very strong but not overly so anymore.

[diopter]

Don't you think that there could emerge new decks that have a good chance against GAT if they didn't have to fear turn 1 flash brokeness?
I think that with merchant scroll gone, both top decks would still be very strong but not overly so anymore.

I disagree. Flash would hardly blink if it had to cut Scroll to a 1-of - it's one of the most negative tempo plays in the deck. GAT would be hurt but GAT is a very skill-rewarding deck, which is what we want in Vintage.

Anybody who has a serious problem with the current format should be calling for the restriction of either Flash, or Gush, or both. Please, no more inane and wrong discussions about the restriction of Merchant Scroll.