That Time of Month

[LordHomerCat]

I agree with Becker (among others).  As much as I love playing GAT, Merchant Scroll's full power has been realized and the card has proved to be too powerful a tutor (it basically gets everything that matters except Lotus).  Restricting Scroll would not suprise me and would probably be good for the format.  I'd also like to see Flash go, as it doesn't do anything healthy for the format and makes tendrils combo a generally inferior choice, not to mention it stifles a lot of innovation because of the absurd number of turn 1 kills.  I'd have to vote to restrict Flash and Scroll, if I had a choice.

[Dxfiler]

I disagree. Flash would hardly blink if it had to cut Scroll to a 1-of - it's one of the most negative tempo plays in the deck. GAT would be hurt but GAT is a very skill-rewarding deck, which is what we want in Vintage.

Er... Flash relies on merchant scroll very heavily.  I found very early in testing against the deck for Waterbury that one of the best strategies to attacking the deck would be countering the merchant scroll as opposed to waiting for them to just have flash later, when they probably have double to counter double backup.

Flash would most definitely 'blink' if scroll is restricted.  Flash is definitely playable with only 1 merchant scroll, but it won't be able to nutdraw you nearly anywhere near as much.  You might have to actually *gasp* work to combo off instead of just mulling into turn 1 kills with double counter backup.  The deck may actually have to be reworked from the ground up with only 1 scroll to work with, but flash would still be playable.

Anybody who has a serious problem with the current format should be calling for the restriction of either Flash, or Gush, or both. Please, no more inane and wrong discussions about the restriction of Merchant Scroll.

I don't know how you can call a discussion of Merchant Scroll 'inane' or 'wrong' when we're presenting rationale arguments and data.  You completely ignored the tourney samples I listed and it sounds like you just don't want to hear about talk of scroll being restricted because you personally think it's fine.

I obviously disagree with your position, but I'm not going to call your opinion 'wrong.'  It'd help if you gave me any sort of argument whatsoever as to why 4 scroll is fine right now, so I could have a debate with you.  As it stands you just want any talk of scroll being restricted to be completely quashed without any sort of reasoning behind it other than you think the card is fine.

Arguments could be made for gush or flash getting the axe and I don't mind you asking people to address those, but you are in no position to just tell people not to discuss merchant scroll being restricted simply because you think the card is fine.  If people think a card is potentially an issue, they have the right to discuss it and give examples and statistics without being brushed aside.

- Dave

[Jank Golem]

The b/r list decision just comes down to how much you want to hurt Flash and GAT. If you restrict Gush and Flash, you can still essentially run 5 copies of each because of Scroll, except you must pay an additional 1U in 4 of those cases Merchant Scroll cases. If you restrict Scrol, Gush and Flash still exist again with 5 copies of each card, except now you just pay their respective cost in all but the 1 Merchant Scroll case. In my opinion Flash and GAT need to be hurt harder then just restricting Merchant Scroll, you need to hit Flash and Gush.

[diopter]

I disagree. Flash would hardly blink if it had to cut Scroll to a 1-of - it's one of the most negative tempo plays in the deck. GAT would be hurt but GAT is a very skill-rewarding deck, which is what we want in Vintage.

Er... Flash relies on merchant scroll very heavily.  I found very early in testing against the deck for Waterbury that one of the best strategies to attacking the deck would be countering the merchant scroll as opposed to waiting for them to just have flash later, when they probably have double to counter double backup.

Flash would most definitely 'blink' if scroll is restricted.  Flash is definitely playable with only 1 merchant scroll, but it won't be able to nutdraw you nearly anywhere near as much.  You might have to actually *gasp* work to combo off instead of just mulling into turn 1 kills with double counter backup.  The deck may actually have to be reworked from the ground up with only 1 scroll to work with, but flash would still be playable.

Anybody who has a serious problem with the current format should be calling for the restriction of either Flash, or Gush, or both. Please, no more inane and wrong discussions about the restriction of Merchant Scroll.

I don't know how you can call a discussion of Merchant Scroll 'inane' or 'wrong' when we're presenting rationale arguments and data.  You completely ignored the tourney samples I listed and it sounds like you just don't want to hear about talk of scroll being restricted because you personally think it's fine.

I obviously disagree with your position, but I'm not going to call your opinion 'wrong.'  It'd help if you gave me any sort of argument whatsoever as to why 4 scroll is fine right now, so I could have a debate with you.  As it stands you just want any talk of scroll being restricted to be completely quashed without any sort of reasoning behind it other than you think the card is fine.

Arguments could be made for gush or flash getting the axe and I don't mind you asking people to address those, but you are in no position to just tell people not to discuss merchant scroll being restricted simply because you think the card is fine.  If people think a card is potentially an issue, they have the right to discuss it and give examples and statistics without being brushed aside.

- Dave

Seriously?  Turn 1 kills with double counter backup most certainly DO NOT happen with Scroll in hand unless you have a buttload of acceleration in hand. Scroll is kind of like a necessary evil in Flash - it lets you curve into the turn 2 kill but it takes so many resources (relatively speaking) to do it that if you don't play the Scroll on turn 1 then you don't win on turn 2, and then your opponents start stabilizing while you start drawing extra Hulks or Slivers.

If Scroll was restricted then Flash would just play all of the topdeck tutors and have so much better game against decks that could then no longer consistently put up the Force of Wall.

--

So, you want to know why I think restricting Scroll is wrong? OK. Scroll is a negative tempo play. You fetch Ancestral with it and it's a better Thirst for Knowledge. You fetch FoW with it and it becomes a weaker Mana Leak. You fetch Mystical Tutor with it and becomes a really bad Grim Tutor. These are all fair plays. Its strength is its flexibility but its weakness is the fact that you have to pay 1U. None of the cards you can fetch with it really allow you to recover that tempo fully, unlike say, the restricted Demonic Tutor, which can fetch Lotus or Will directly and destroy you. The "real problem" is the 4-of nature of Flash and Gush, which now allow you to circumvent the tempo loss of Scroll over 40% of the time.

--

On a related note, if we want to talk about tourney results in regards to the upcoming B&R decision, then it seems Gencon has shown the presence of a healthy metagame in its top 8. Flash didn't even break Top 8, Landstill (of all things!!) made it and Stax had the same representation as GAT. Stax!!! For the first time since "The-Death-of-Stax-due-to-Empty-the-Warrens-in-Gifts-and-Long", Stax is actually good again! Who could ask for more, really??

[zeus-online]

Who could ask for more, really??

Urh...people like me, who got into the format because they loved Mana drain decks?
Currently i'm playing GAT 'cause all my other favorite decks are unplayable due to Flash, GAT...oh and the POSSIBILITY of ichorid, seriously everyone's packing enough graveyard hate to kill that deck twice....

(Not that i think ichorid should go, not until it's proven it's ability to do well in tournaments)

/Zeus

[diopter]

(A)ll my other favorite decks are unplayable due to Flash, GAT...oh and the POSSIBILITY of ichorid, seriously everyone's packing enough graveyard hate to kill that deck twice....
/Zeus

Everybody in the Gencon Top 8 aside from Smennen and Rich Shay would like to have a word with you, unless of course you never had a desire to play Ichorid, Landstill (with Drains!!), Stax, or Tendrils.

[Setnakt]

The heart of the issue is that Scroll is not the card that makes Flash decks dangerous. Flash is a deck that consistently asks "FoW or no?" by the end of their turn 2 every game, and even if you answer yes you probably still lose. Changing the deck by -3 Scroll alone will not slow down the deck, at least not in a way that one would think in terms of a combo deck that still only needs to cast a 2cc spell once to win the game. The deck feels cheap, and it's not like there aren't enough tutors in this format to augment the loss of Scroll. I still wouldn't like seeing it at tournaments, no matter what you did with +/- 3 slots to its tutor core.

To be honest I'm considering running more REBs maindeck in GAT just because of Flash. I don't know how much it would help, and then I wouldn't know what to do about siding them out vs Stax, but Drain just isn't fast enough. Make of that what you will.

In the end, I won't argue against the numbers on Scroll. I just think it's misleading to not distinguish between Gush Scroll decks and Flash Scroll decks. What I mean by that is, in decks that don't run Flash, Scroll is not a good card because it fetches Flash. In that case it has independent reasons that I feel should be understood. If they restrict Flash, would we see as many Scrolls? I understand that the answer may still be "yes," in that non-combo decks may still run some number of Scrolls even if they aren't running the 4 Scroll/4 Gush core, and I also know that Scroll may independently warrant restriction. But I do think there should be some awareness of the fact that it's partially coincidence that Flash is a blue instant that happens to make it fetchable with Scroll, and that in and of itself doesn't make Scroll itself more or less unhealthy for the format as a 4-of.

In the end there may just be too many Scrolls in decks in general for comfort, but I don't know how often Bomberman for example runs more than 2, or that any non-Gush deck will be running it as a 4-of. Critical mass in regards to Gush may be argument enough but in the end I think that's an argument that should be distinguished from the Flash issue.

[LordHomerCat]

Meandeck Gifts was built on 4 scrolls, and The Mean Deck (Scroll TPS) is also heavily reliant on a Scroll engine.  If you take out GAT and Flash, then Scroll TPS immediately becomes one of the top decks (as it is probably the best remaining combo deck) and who knows what Drain deck will end up on top, but it seems very likely Scroll will be the engine given its performance in recent months and years.  Saying that killing Gush and Flash will kill Scroll too assumes that these are the only good scroll decks, when in fact Scroll was getting to be pretty ridiculous before GAT or Flash even appeared.

[The Demon]

I dont think Merchant Scroll is a busted card.  Merchant scroll was a really good card in Gifts,it fueled the engine and was one of the main reasons MDG was consistent.But at the same time Gifts was barely the best performing deck overall (I think it beat out pitch long in top eights by two)  However, if any restrictions where to occur we should look at why Merchant Scroll is so broken right now.  It goes to get Flash, a deck that combos off on people turns 1, 2, and 3.  It goes to find whatever spell GAT wants, often times Gush.  Merchant Scroll being restricted makes less sense to me then those two cards being restricted.  Look what Scroll actually did before Flash and Gat.; it went and found Ancestral Recall (two cards and  for three cards is fair), it went and found force (three cards for a defensive play is not what I would deem broken), and it found bounce or Brainstorm (once again that is not what I would call being broke).  It was only when Flash one of the best combo decks ever, and GAT one of the best decks ever period came along did Merchant scroll get out of hand.  Flash is a stupid card, it is a stupid deck, it takes more skill to wack  to watch friggin Jerry Springer then play this deck. And beyond all of that Flash is an amazing deck.  I cannot see any reason at all why that card should unrestricted.  I think it is pretty clear that Flash needs to get the axe......real clear.  Now we take a look at GAT and it is much hazier in my opinion.  Yeah GAT is a great deck no doubt about it.  And while it was a GAT versus GAT final at the con I am not sure if this deck is broken.  Fish strategies have game against it, I think that Goblins and some of the Tendrils variations have game against it, and to top it all off the players in the finals happened to be Rich Shay and Steve Menendian.  I think that since Gush was already restricted years ago some people may be to quick to jump on the restrict bandwagon concerning the card. 

Yesterday I was of the opinion that nothing should be restricted this go around, obviously I changed my opinion.

[wraith985]

Scroll wasn't even much of a problem until Gifts was restricted, Flash was unerrataed, and Gush was unrestricted - sure, it was a key part of MDG-style decks, but those were hardly unfair to the extent that GAT and Flash are. Scroll is certainly a powerful card, but the best plays with that card absent Gush and Flash are plays that we already know to be somewhat fair - Scroll for AR and Scroll for pitch magic are known quantities that haven't shown themselves to be overly degenerate in the few years that we've gotten to know them.

In short, I think Scroll is certainly very powerful, but not abusive enough to be restricted. I think a valid comparison is to liken Scroll to Brainstorm, in that both help the decks they're in for the purposes of consistency and flexibility, but are not overly powerful. I mean, you could even call a lot of the decks in question Brainstorm decks, because all of them play 4x Brainstorm without question or hesitation...but that doesn't mean anything in the abstract.

Flash and Gush, on the other hand, are just flat-out stupid, and I would support restricting both without hesitation (though Becker does bring up an intriguing alternative, restricting Flash but not Gush, so we could see that dynamic play out...would be interesting).

[nataz]

Why does Brainstrom get a bye whenever these disscussions come up? As someone who has tested infiny flash games, Brainstorm is far more useful over all then scroll. Brainstorm sets up mana, DRAWS THREE CARDS, and digs for counters all for the price of U mana at instant speed. Merchent Scroll plays a similar role assuring the counter/flash/recall/whatever, but at the cost of 2 mana and sorcery speed. Honestly flash would be much less consistant, and therefore less powerful if it didn't have Brainstorm.

Think about it T2 you've got something like ~50 cards left in your deck and you find yourself missing "X" to win. Brainstorm is so powerful because the entire deck is so redundant. You have 8 hulks (pact + Hulk), you have 8 counters, drawing 3 cards gives you a  ~50% chance of snagging w/e for a single U. Thats HUGE b/c its generally possible to have 3 mana on t2, i.e., 1 mana for setup (brainstorm of CA disadvantage tutor) + 2 mana for flash. If you throw Scroll into the mix, not only can you not set up at instant speed, but at best you will slow down the combo till turn 3. Brainstorm also makes hands keepable. Multiple Hulk hands are terrible, and the mana base is well known by now to be fairly sketchy. Brainstorm is what lets you dig for that second/third mana source or conversly allows you to sink uneeded cards back into your deck.   

Dave, I <3 you and all, but your scroll arguments seem way off base. Scroll has absolutly NOTHING to do with T1 Kills and flash. Sure, you can sack it out with something like a lotus, but really, having black lotus in your opening hand is just degenerate to begin with. If anything, Scroll adds redundancy to the deck, but as I've already pointed out, Brainstorm is much better and faster at that to begin with.

You keep making the point about X scroll decks in the top 8, but I bet you any amount of dollars (jk) that there were more Brainstorms then Scrolls at Waterbury, Gencon, Myriad, and Eld's. 

Oh, and the whole flash is too good thing strikes me as wicked odd. I mean, yea, its a beast - whoo hoo, welcome to Vintage. But heck, look at the top 8's. Flash is doing well, but hardly dominating. It took months for people to even start playing the Hulk version over the Rector version, let alone start adapting to play against the hulk version. Stax/prison actually does really well against Flash fyi, anyone who says otherwise hasn't played against competent stax players, or simply hasn't tested enough.

Oh yea, look at the resounding preformence of Flash at Gencon. Whee.

So what, GAT and Flash are good. They also happen to make STAX finally a decent choice again, ditto ironically on Goblins. Why can't Vintage for once have a reasonable meta-game? Why does everyone's stupid pet decks have to be relevent? For once, can't we just have 4-5 decks to beat, that rotate though like a normal meta-game?

[Smmenen]

I think one potential good move could be to unrestrict Fact or Fiction and simultaneously restrict Flash.    Flash probably has to be killed, but Fact would help make a genuine competitor to GAT.    In my testing, BBS style decks are essentially equal to GAT.   

[ErkBek]

I disagree. Flash would hardly blink if it had to cut Scroll to a 1-of - it's one of the most negative tempo plays in the deck. GAT would be hurt but GAT is a very skill-rewarding deck, which is what we want in Vintage.

Your not serious right? The scroll engine is crucial for GAT since it solidifies the Gush engine, meanwhile it boosts the disruptive elements vs. combo decks to a ridiculous level. If scroll is restricted, the whole deck just gets significantly worse, especially fastbond and will.

Menendian added that he felt being able to Merchant Scroll for Gush was more problematic than the actual Mercadian Masques common itself, and fingered that as a possible source of examination for Vintage's future.

We all know that Steve is in love with Scroll, but seriously it holds this deck together much more than it held Gifts together. GAT is moreso about chaining cantrips, which Scroll is excellent at doing, especially in conjunction with Gush. Gifts used scroll mostly to be a utility spell that found ancestral, bounce, and additional counters, while in GAT it does all that, but it also serves as a combo piece.

EDIT: It appears diopter has deleted his post....so my reply is just kinda hangin' out here, plus I just burned a good 5-10 minutes replying to nothing. Go me.

[moxpearl]

I agree that something needs to be done to weaken Flash decks.  Restricting Flash is the obvious solution.  In some sense, GenCon showed evidence that Flash decks are not dominating.  However, I would put Flash in the same camp as Trinisphere in that while the card doesn't creating a dominating deck, the card is "unfun", does not reward playskill, and the main interactivity is whether or not you can counter it.

Now if just Flash were restricted, wouldn't that just make Gush decks more dominating?  Or are some people arguing that Flash existing neutered other decks that made Gush decks so dominating? 

As others have mentioned, the other solution is to restrict Scroll.  This would reduce Gush's power and Flash's power at the same time.  Flash can still win at blazing speed, but so can Pitch Long and Belcher.  Merchant Scroll made Flash uber consistent in that if the first Flash failed, you'd just get another, or you use scroll for bounce, or it could always get the tried and true Ancestral when you didn't have much of anything.  Restricting Scroll would turn Flash into a less consistent deck that was still powerful, but not necessarily any more powerful than a lot of other fast combo decks.   True, restricting scroll would give GAT -3 cards to find Force, but it also just gave Flash decks -3 cards to find Flash or Pact, so it seems to be an even trade there.

So, maybe you restrict both, but that seems like a bold move for Wizards to make at one time.  If I had to pick just one of the cards, I lean towards Scroll first.  Now, I know it's been mentioned that Brainstorm is technically a better candidate for restriction than Scroll, but I don't see that ever happening.

[nataz]

and the main interactivity is whether or not you can counter it.

I hate that argument because it just shows what kind of bias the type I community has. There are lots of ways to combat flash as a deck besides countering it. For starters, look at the weak manabase and realize that anything from chalice to wasteland, to sphere's can put a serious crimp in the plan. Not to mention more narrow cards like trickbind, bounce, leyline, the pitch red card, extract(!) w/e.

I think one potential good move could be to unrestrict Fact or Fiction and simultaneously restrict Flash. Flash probably has to be killed, but Fact would help make a genuine competitor to GAT.    In my testing, BBS style decks are essentially equal to GAT. 

and man oh man is this ballsy. From the man who just won vintage gencon in a GAT on GAT MIRROR match where not a single Flash deck Top 8'd, we get the suggestions that:

- GAT is fine
- we should neuter Flash (one of the few decks that can consistantly beat GAT btw - even steve now addmits that if you belive PC's latest SCG article on Gencon)
- we should unrest FOF because obv. the format depands a pure control deck

...

lord forbid that a combo deck (with plenty of weakness' to exploit) be the GAT foil, it has to be a pure control deck or it isnt worth it

[LordHomerCat]

I'm not entirely sure what you're implying Nataz, I mean, Steve is hardly known as anti-combo (see: SX, Doomsday, Long, GrimLong, Scroll TPS, etc).  In addition, most people don't seem to be upset that a combo deck is able to beat the 'control' deck in the format (flash vs GAT).  I personally love playing combo in vintage, but Flash just doesn't do it for me.  I mean, half the playskill with Flash is mulling to a turn 1 or 2 kill, kind of like playing Ichorid mulling to bazaar.  If Pitchlong crushed GAT, like it crushes Slaver for instance, I would not be calling for Dark Rit to get restricted, because I think of most Tendrils combo as inherently more fair because they cause a lot of interaction compared to Flash, and require some skill on behalf of the pilot as well.  The problem with Flash is that there is tons of hate like chalice and wasteland and things, which doesn't do anything when the deck kills you before you get a turn a third of the time.  No tendrils deck past or present is able to kill, protected, as fast or as often as Flash (excepting perfect play with SX which is basically not realistic).

I don't know about allowing Fact, as I wasn't involved enough in Vintage to have played with 4FOF's in BBS.  But Flash is a much different animal than any other combo in modern vintage, and all the attributes which make it so scary also make it worthy of restricting.

[Shock Wave]

I'm not entirely sure what you're implying Nataz, I mean, Steve is hardly known as anti-combo (see: SX, Doomsday, Long, GrimLong, Scroll TPS, etc).  In addition, most people don't seem to be upset that a combo deck is able to beat the 'control' deck in the format (flash vs GAT).  I personally love playing combo in vintage, but Flash just doesn't do it for me.  I mean, half the playskill with Flash is mulling to a turn 1 or 2 kill, kind of like playing Ichorid mulling to bazaar.  If Pitchlong crushed GAT, like it crushes Slaver for instance, I would not be calling for Dark Rit to get restricted, because I think of most Tendrils combo as inherently more fair because they cause a lot of interaction compared to Flash, and require some skill on behalf of the pilot as well.  The problem with Flash is that there is tons of hate like chalice and wasteland and things, which doesn't do anything when the deck kills you before you get a turn a third of the time.  No tendrils deck past or present is able to kill, protected, as fast or as often as Flash (excepting perfect play with SX which is basically not realistic).

I don't know about allowing Fact, as I wasn't involved enough in Vintage to have played with 4FOF's in BBS.  But Flash is a much different animal than any other combo in modern vintage, and all the attributes which make it so scary also make it worthy of restricting.

I agree 100% with the above. I think Gush is too strong to be unrestricted. While I agree that Rich and Steve are undoubtedly amongst the most skilled players in Vintage, it cannot be denied that they were also playing what seems to be, unequivocally, the best deck in the format. I'm very sure they would have been more hard pressed to win had they played something else. They deserve full credit for their wins, however this sort of dominance implies an impending problem. Whenever we have a deck that can be identified as the best, I submit that the archetype is too strong. I fear that while GAT is highly interactive, it will need neutering in the future as a result of the dominance principle.

As for Flash, everyone knows how I feel about that deck, and LordHomerCat perfectly describes why standard Vintage combo is acceptable with respect to power, while Flash is not.

If Wizards is considering changes to the format, I would propose the following:

- Dream Halls
- Grim Monolith

+ Flash
+ Merchant Scroll
+ Gush
+ do something to nuke Ichorid in a non-retarded way, without killing Bazaar (if you know how to do this, please tell me how, plz thx)

This would essentially return us to the Gifts metagame, pre-Flash/Ichorid. To return to that era of Vintage, with Gifts restricted, would open up a whole slew of viable archetypes. Control Slaver would be viable again, and the format would be slow enough to make even aggro decks competitive.

We all love the speed of vintage, but I think we should draw the line of what is an acceptable threshold of power. Flash definitely crosses that line. Gush is just silly, but maybe it wouldn't be too ridiculous if we hit Merchant Scroll. Perhaps Wizards could just try hitting Scroll and Flash first, and see how that impacts the metagame? I can't see GAT still being the house that it currently is without the availability of multiple blue Demonic Tutors.

Anyways, I'm just thinking out loud. I enjoyed the Vintage championships, but I still think we can make improvements to this format.

[LordHomerCat]

I wish I could take credit for this suggestion but I can't remember who first suggested it, but a big step in hurting Ichorid (without killing 'fair' bazaar decks like Dragon) would be restricting Serum Powder.  I mean, the deck still can do well if the player is very lucky and just has bazaar in their 7 or 6 all day, but I would think a lot of the people who play it would not have the guts if Serum Powder wasn't there to make it that much easier to find.

Honestly, other than Bazaar, that's the only card that can't just be replaced by anything.  Obviously the dredgers arent the answer, nor the free creatures (too many at this point), and you could kill Dread Return but that hardly seems like an effectice step as it just slows the deck a turn or two.  Serum Powder and Bazaar are like the only non-replaceable cards, and as I think Bazaar is 100% fair except in stupid Ichorid, Powder would be a step in the right direction.

I think Restrict Flash, Restrict Scroll, Unrestrict Dream Halls (since its terrible), Unrestrict Monolith (probably fine as well, who would even play with it?), and see how GAT reacts.  If it is still insane, then either Restrict Gush next cycle or Unrestrict FOF or Trini or something.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

More and more I get the impression many people want their old metagames back, something along the lines of "that's unfair. I can't play control slaver anymore."
How long did control slaver exist in vintage? I think since mindslaver has come out. Sometimes I think it's time to accept that some strategies might be outdated while others emerge. Just because it's eternal formats doesn't mean (for me) that there schould always be the same known archetypes around and change most often is not accepted.

[Shock Wave]

More and more I get the impression many people want their old metagames back, something along the lines of "that's unfair. I can't play control slaver anymore."
How long did control slaver exist in vintage? I think since mindslaver has come out. Sometimes I think it's time to accept that some strategies might be outdated while others emerge. Just because it's eternal formats doesn't mean (for me) that there schould always be the same known archetypes around and change most often is not accepted.

No, you're misinterpreting the intention of the proposed B&R change. I'm not partial to Control Slaver or any particular deck. I'm an advocate for an environment which allows for the greatest number of viable archetypes and the highest level of interactivity. I understand that Vintage is broken, but I believe we can achieve this goal by drawing the line as to what is an acceptable level of brokenness. This isn't about people having a "pet deck", this is about opening up the card pool and allowing people to interact on a higher level. Have you considered that the Flash archetype severely limits the number of viable strategies in Vintage, and warps the environment by forcing decks to hedge very strongly against it?

By nixing this problem, we expand the number of viable cards and archetypes in the Vintage pool, and increase the level of interactivity in the format. This really is a win-win scenario for everyone except those that love to watch the game end on Turn 1 and 2.

[Vegeta2711]

More and more I get the impression many people want their old metagames back, something along the lines of "that's unfair. I can't play control slaver anymore."
How long did control slaver exist in vintage? I think since mindslaver has come out. Sometimes I think it's time to accept that some strategies might be outdated while others emerge. Just because it's eternal formats doesn't mean (for me) that there schould always be the same known archetypes around and change most often is not accepted.

Under that brilliant assertion of logic we should've never evolved the metagame past Academy / Necro Trix / 4 Jar combo decks.

[The Demon]

+ Flash
+ Merchant Scroll
+ Gush
+ do something to nuke Ichorid in a non-stupid way, without killing Bazaar (if you know how to do this, please tell me how, plz thx)

[/quote]

I agree with Flash getting restricted, and while I am not sure about gush getting restricted I would vote for gush to stay, but why would you restrict scroll?  Scroll was never an unfair or a broken card before Flash.  When you're not scrolling for the win like gifts or flash you're not doing anything "unfair" or "unfun".Take out Flash and what do you go get that is busted? Chain tutoring with mystical?  Tutoring up card disadvantage like Force?  Going to go get ancestral recall?  I mean the last one sounds totally insane but when you take into account that you are basically spending two cards and  , for three cards it isn't as bad as it sounds.  If you restrict Flash there is no reason at all why Scroll should go.

[zeus-online]

I agree with Flash getting restricted, and while I am not sure about gush getting restricted I would vote for gush to stay, but why would you restrict scroll?  Scroll was never an unfair or a broken card before Flash.  When you're not scrolling for the win like gifts or flash you're not doing anything "unfair" or "unfun".Take out Flash and what do you go get that is busted? Chain tutoring with mystical?  Tutoring up card disadvantage like Force?  Going to go get ancestral recall?  I mean the last one sounds totally insane but when you take into account that you are basically spending two cards and  , for three cards it isn't as bad as it sounds.  If you restrict Flash there is no reason at all why Scroll should go.

The problem with all these arguments is that you can often just replace "Merchant scroll" with "Demonic tutor"...and say...hey 1UB for ancestral - Now that's fair.
(Although demonic is obviously way more powerfull)

The thing with tutors is that they make decks extremely consistent...They might not speed the deck up by much, but they make sure that by Turn X that deck does what it was made to do....Take flash, yeah scroll slows you down a turn, but wouldn't you rather do a turn 2 flash then not casting flash at all?

Before the last restrictions/unrestrictions everyone was hoping for a slower meta-game, people where complaining about gifts and long....Now we have the same problem again, except that the new crop is even faster and much more powerfull, in addition to being harder to disrupt.....When will the line be drawn?

/Zeus

[horse the name]

Going to go get ancestral recall?  I mean the last one sounds totally insane but when you take into account that you are basically spending two cards and  , for three cards it isn't as bad as it sounds.

Not to get off topic, but I believe your math here is incorrect. Scroll -> Ancestral isn't spending 2 cards for 3. It's still 1 card for 3 because the scroll you had gets replaced by the ancestral. Mystical -> Ancestral would be an example of spending 2 cards for 3.

[The Demon]

Going to go get ancestral recall?  I mean the last one sounds totally insane but when you take into account that you are basically spending two cards and  , for three cards it isn't as bad as it sounds.

Not to get off topic, but I believe your math here is incorrect. Scroll -> Ancestral isn't spending 2 cards for 3. It's still 1 card for 3 because the scroll you had gets replaced by the ancestral. Mystical -> Ancestral would be an example of spending 2 cards for 3.

For all intensive purposes you are paying three mana to draw three cards.  You are using two cards to draw three cards when you scroll for recall and cast it. 

[The Demon]

I agree with Flash getting restricted, and while I am not sure about gush getting restricted I would vote for gush to stay, but why would you restrict scroll?  Scroll was never an unfair or a broken card before Flash.  When you're not scrolling for the win like gifts or flash you're not doing anything "unfair" or "unfun".Take out Flash and what do you go get that is busted? Chain tutoring with mystical?  Tutoring up card disadvantage like Force?  Going to go get ancestral recall?  I mean the last one sounds totally insane but when you take into account that you are basically spending two cards and  , for three cards it isn't as bad as it sounds.  If you restrict Flash there is no reason at all why Scroll should go.

The problem with all these arguments is that you can often just replace "Merchant scroll" with "Demonic tutor"...and say...hey 1UB for ancestral - Now that's fair.
(Although demonic is obviously way more powerfull)

I am still failing to see how scrolling for ancestral recall is broken.  I am also failing to see why it makes sense to restrict Merchant Scroll in a format that only allows you to play with one flash.  Scroll was never a clear problem card before flash.  Scroll finds answers, fair answers barring flash.  When Merchant Scroll is finding the card to win you the game literally (like with Gifts or Flash) then you should restrict that blue instant, not Scroll.

The thing with tutors is that they make decks extremely consistent...They might not speed the deck up by much, but they make sure that by Turn X that deck does what it was made to do....Take flash, yeah scroll slows you down a turn, but wouldn't you rather do a turn 2 flash then not casting flash at all?

Before the last restrictions/unrestrictions everyone was hoping for a slower meta-game, people where complaining about gifts and long....Now we have the same problem again, except that the new crop is even faster and much more powerfull, in addition to being harder to disrupt.....When will the line be drawn?

/Zeus

[Setnakt]

Going to go get ancestral recall?  I mean the last one sounds totally insane but when you take into account that you are basically spending two cards and  , for three cards it isn't as bad as it sounds.

Not to get off topic, but I believe your math here is incorrect. Scroll -> Ancestral isn't spending 2 cards for 3. It's still 1 card for 3 because the scroll you had gets replaced by the ancestral. Mystical -> Ancestral would be an example of spending 2 cards for 3.

For all intensive purposes you are paying three mana to draw three cards.  You are using two cards to draw three cards when you scroll for recall and cast it. 

I cast Merchant. While it is resolving, I have lost a card. When it resolves, it is replaced by Ancestral; I have lost, and then gained one card. -1 + 1 = 0. You use one card to get one card to get three cards. (-1 +1) = 0 -1 +3. Merchant for Ancestral is the same as Ancestral itself in terms of raw card advantage.

On the other hand you only have one Ancestral, so in a way, you can't really say you're playing with four Ancestrals; you are playing with four ways to find it, but hardly for free, and if it's countered, or after it's cast, it's gone, and if your opponent gets one off, you can't very well dig for another to top them. I don't really see how Demonic for Ancestral is the most broken play to be worried about. In a way that play itself is restricted, as it were. There's a powerful level of consistency to be measured but 1 Ancestral/4 Scroll is not the same as the 4/4 Gush/Scroll core. I think Ancestral should be measured on its own, certainly as a related, but ultimately separate issue. It sort of takes more than just Ancestral to justify a multitude of Scrolls; the option to Merchant for Echoing Truth isn't all that dangerous on its own. Remember that you can't just get any answer you want with it, and just understand that what it really gives is flexibility; we're not talking about an LED or Ancestral type card, even if it would ultimately benefit the format as a whole for Scroll to be restricted.

In the end regarding the b/r list I definitely agree on -Fact +Flash. I'm not sure about Scroll and the DCI has assured us that Gush is safe, so I'm willing to wait on these issues. I know that Fact is a very powerful engine, but I don't see it negatively impacting the format; I don't expect to see a deck with 4 Gush 4 Fact, as Fact suits itself to a different sort of core, so I don't see any direct critical mass issues or anything. As more cards are released, there will be a measurable power creep and with today's card pool I would like to see a mix of control decks using Fact at least as long as we have Gush, so that there is a pointedly significant reason not to "just play Gush" or whatever, if that were the argument.

[kombat]

Flash, Gush, and Merchant scroll being restricted would solve most of the problems facing type 1. 

Wow.  That'd be so incredibly boring.  Without Gifts, Flash, Gush, and Merchant Scroll, you've pretty much just handed the whole format over to Stax.  This may surprise you, but not everyone enjoys prison decks.

[kombat]

You completely ignored the tourney samples I listed

Dave, I'm not sure there's any value in the statistics you posted.  Of course there are going to be lots of occurrences of a useful, unrestricted card.  Why don't you post the numbers of Brainstorms, Force of Wills, or Polluted Deltas for those same tournaments?  They'll be just as high as the Merchant Scroll count.  So what does that mean?  I would submit: "Nothing."

If Merchant Scroll, Gush, and Flash all got restricted, what would Vintage look like?  You'd have effectively killed combo and control.  Stax would dominate.  Some might say "Fish," but would Fish really be as strong in an environment devoid of combo and control?

Why is there such a strong desire for the DCI to further meddle in the format?  Is the current state of the format really so bad?  I personally think it's very diverse and exciting.  For all the fearmongering surrounding Flash, it utterly fizzled at Gencon.  And while the finals were indeed a GAT mirror, I would say that has more to do with the players themselves than the deck.  It's not like a couple random scrubs lucksacked their way to the top with a degenerate deck.  It was a pair of very experienced Vintage experts.

Here are the Banned/Restricted changes I'm hoping for in September:

- Gifts Ungiven
- Dream Halls

and that's it.

[Malhavoc]

+ Flash
+ Merchant Scroll
+ Gush
+ do something to nuke Ichorid in a non-stupid way, without killing Bazaar (if you know how to do this, please tell me how, plz thx)

Restricting Serum, even if quite odd, would be an excellent choice to almost kill ichorid (at least the manaless version) without killing bazaars: if ichorid can't be almost sure to have Bazaar first turn, then it needs spells to find it, and spells can be countered.

As for the rest, if it were for me I would do one of these:

- Restrict Flash
- Restrict Serum Powder
Or

- Restrict Flash
- Restrict Serum Powder
- Restrict Merchant Scroll

With the proper countermeasures, I still think Gush deck can be kept in check; Flash is the one which really needs to go. However, restricting Merchant would give a good hit to both decks (and to the Giftless Gift decks, which are still played with very good results here in Italy). On the other hand, restricting Merchant and leaving Flash unrestricted would somehow hinder flash, but also help it, since the opponent would find much more difficult to fetch a counter quickly.

In the end it would be if you just need to kill flash or want to slow down all the others too.

Ah, and of course Ichorid just deserves to die, as it is a deck which takes away any possible interaction in the name of a "first turn leyline or die" game.