Banned/Restricted List Discussion

[Smmenen]

I am shocked that they banned Sharahazad.   That would be the sort of thing you do for Legacy, NOT Vintage.   

I am surprised, but not shocked by the lack of changes.

The DCI generally takes no action with respect to Vintage.   We were spoiled by the earthquake from the last restriction.   Remember, they hadn't restricted a card since 2005 until Gifts a couple of months ago.   

People are always asking them to restrict, and there non-action actually makes me think more highly of them.   that doesn't mean I didn't think Flash shouldn't be restricted, I do.  I just respect their ability to not pull the trigger because it is so much easier to pull the trigger.   

[Akuma]

I would like to thank WotC for their decision to do nothing. Vintage requires more time than other formats to properly assess. It takes a long time for a restriction to be reversed once it is made, so it is better to wait.

The only thing that is even remotely a restriction possibility is Flash. I want definitive RESULTS before anything is done. Flash isn't even that bad, it actually allows things like Goblins to exist, which is good.

Talk of restricting Brainstorm always makes me wretch, I can't believe people bring that up. Some people will not be happy until we are playing Highlander.

I do hope that more unrestrictions are made in the near future.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot, I totally agree with banning Sharahazad, lamest card to play against...

[Vegeta2711]

The decision shouldn't be a shock to people, but I am a little disappointed they did nothing to address Flash which you don't actually need tournament results to backup restriction-wise.

[ELD]

I am shocked that they banned Sharahazad.   That would be the sort of thing you do for Legacy, NOT Vintage.   

QFT.  Vintage should be the format where you can play any card every printed. 

I don't have an issue with the DCI's decision.  I think Merchant Scroll can get the axe just on principle, but then so could Grim Tutor.  With the finals at Worlds being two of the best players in the game, and with many of the Top 8's around the country sounding like a who's-who of Vintage, we are at a point where playskill is king.  I think that is exactly where Vintage should be.  Add to the equation the diversity of decks making the Top 8, and I feel we are in a Golden Age of Vintage. 

[Ephraim]

I approve of the principle behind the banning of Shahrazad.  Ante, dexterity, and now flagrant abuse of timed matches are considered unsuitable for competitive Magic.  I value the integrity of the competition more than I value the principle of "every card ever printed," so I agree with the decision to ban Shahrazad.

[Purple Hat]

is there really a more broken interaction in magic than Shaharzad imprinted on Panoptic Mirror?  I don't mean broken like overpowered, I mean broken like....if you pull it off the game stops working.  I think the card's funny, but it's more for casual formats than tournament formats.

[Yare]

It's about that time again.  Thoughts?  How big are the most recent SCG results?

[Matt]

C'mon Land Tax!
[/derail]

[LotusHead]

Ancestral Recall
Balance
Black Lotus
Burning Wish
Channel
Chrome Mox x
Crop Rotation x
Demonic Consultation x
Demonic Tutor
Dream Halls xxx
Enlightened Tutor x
Entomb x
Fact or Fiction x
Fastbond x
Frantic Search x
Gifts Ungiven xxxx
Grim Monolith x
Imperial Seal x
Library of Alexandria x
Lion’s Eye Diamond x
Lotus Petal
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Mind’s Desire
Mox Diamond x
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Mystical Tutor xx
Necropotence
Personal Tutor x
Regrowth x
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Time Spiral x
Time Walk
Timetwister
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Trinisphere xxxx
Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall x
Yawgmoth’s Bargain
Yawgmoth’s Will

ok

x means Can go off probably (this is 2007 not 2002.

xx means LotusHead thinks it could go off, given it's card disadvantage and the MetaGame's ability to adapt. (no, I don't want this unrestricted, I just think it wouldn't be backbreaking to Vintage for more than a month.)

xxx means Dream Halls. Imagine a Vintage World overrune by Unrestricted Dream Halls. The Horror. The Horror!

xxxx 3Sphere/Gifts. Odd these two share the same dilema. Both were in check, got restricted none-the-less, but Vintage is super healthy right now. No comment here.

Gush: it had it's month of fun. It's probably still in check.

Dark Rit: remember when people said it should be restricted?

Ban YawgWill: go play Legacy or 5 Color Highlander.

I have spoken.

[Implacable]

Ancestral Recall
Balance
Black Lotus
Burning Wish
Channel
Chrome Mox x
Crop Rotation x
Demonic Consultation x
Demonic Tutor
Dream Halls xxx
Enlightened Tutor x
Entomb x
Fact or Fiction x
Fastbond x
Frantic Search x
Gifts Ungiven xxxx
Grim Monolith x
Imperial Seal x
Library of Alexandria x
Lion’s Eye Diamond x
Lotus Petal
Mana Crypt
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Mind’s Desire
Mox Diamond x
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Mystical Tutor xx
Necropotence
Personal Tutor x
Regrowth x
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Time Spiral x
Time Walk
Timetwister
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Trinisphere xxxx
Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall x
Yawgmoth’s Bargain
Yawgmoth’s Will

ok

x means Can go off probably (this is 2007 not 2002.

xx means LotusHead thinks it could go off, given it's card disadvantage and the MetaGame's ability to adapt. (no, I don't want this unrestricted, I just think it wouldn't be backbreaking to Vintage for more than a month.)

xxx means Dream Halls. Imagine a Vintage World overrune by Unrestricted Dream Halls. The Horror. The Horror!

xxxx 3Sphere/Gifts. Odd these two share the same dilema. Both were in check, got restricted none-the-less, but Vintage is super healthy right now. No comment here.

Gush: it had it's month of fun. It's probably still in check.

Dark Rit: remember when people said it should be restricted?

Ban YawgWill: go play Legacy or 5 Color Highlander.

I have spoken.

So, unrestricted Fastbond, L.E.D., and Entomb.  Why not just play War?

I like the game, right now, as it is.  I played in a small tourney last night, and the meta was both varied and healthy.  Let's not rush to action right here: I am as of now satisfied.

[LotusHead]

So, unrestricted Fastbond, L.E.D., and Entomb.  Why not just play War?

I like the game, right now, as it is.  I played in a small tourney last night, and the meta was both varied and healthy.  Let's not rush to action right here: I am as of now satisfied.

I didn't really mean to click on FastBond. (I know it's too broken as a 4 of. I was thinking CHANNEL twice. My bad).

L.E.D. to me is a borderline card, as it got "broken" around the same time that Chalice of the Void got printed. It's in there with Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond.  But now that I think about it, Ichorid would probably REALLY love 4 LED's if it could.

Entomb, meh.

I am quite happy with the format now as well.  3Sphere and Gifts got pwned, but hey, Vintage is as fun as it's ever been.

[Yare]

We'll try this one more time.

Predictions? (Analytically based) desires?

[Shock Wave]

I have the feeling that they'll hit Scroll. Here's what I would like to see:

+Flash
+Scroll

Gush is putting up some serious numbers, but I'm not sure the engine would be as busted without Merchant Scroll. I'm not going to beat the Flash horse again. Other than that, there are a bunch of cards that can probably come off the list that will most likely remain there. I'd like to see wholesale changes (cards added and removed) but I would settle for Flash and Scroll biting the dust. At the very least, Scroll has to go.

[Zherbus]

I really think they'll just do nothing.

[Moxlotus]

Nothing or Scroll.  If they are going to hit scroll, I can see them doing it before the summer season and the Vintage champs.  Scroll hits pretty much every criteria that they have used for restriction (tutor, showing up in large numbers, every deck trying to abuse it).

[MuzzonoAmi]

They probably won't do anything. The metagame is stable based on everything I've been reading (sorry, haven't played much recently), so any changes that aren't strictly cosmetic (unrestricting Time Spiral/Windfall) or are going to have a minor effect at best (unrestricting Grim Monolith) are unlikely.

[Smmenen]

Nothing or Scroll.  If they are going to hit scroll, I can see them doing it before the summer season and the Vintage champs.  Scroll hits pretty much every criteria that they have used for restriction (tutor, showing up in large numbers, every deck trying to abuse it).

What would the metagame look like if they nerfed Scroll?

[Shock Wave]

Nothing or Scroll.  If they are going to hit scroll, I can see them doing it before the summer season and the Vintage champs.  Scroll hits pretty much every criteria that they have used for restriction (tutor, showing up in large numbers, every deck trying to abuse it).

What would the metagame look like if they nerfed Scroll?

I don't think anyone can answer that question with any certainty. I don't know what it would look like, but I don't think the restriction of Merchant Scroll would be detrimental to the format at all. You don't think this is a good idea?

[Smmenen]

I think Merchant Scroll should probably be restricted.   I was merely curious what people thought the format might look like if it was.

[Harlequin]

With scroll gone, I think decks will become more 1-drop-centric.  8x Duress, 8x Brainstorm, 8x REB, Welder, Dark Rit, Stifle/Naught. I think this becomes the backbone of the format.  This will allow shopdecks that are build around Chalice @1 to have some time in the sun.

[Smmenen]

Although people in the DCI won't tell me what's going to happen, it does appear that there is going to be sweeping changes to Vintage.  The reason I say this is because they specifically said that they are interested in what my reaction will be.  I don't think I'm breaking any confidences in saying that. 

I'm speculating at this point, but I think that either Scroll or Brainstorm will get hit, perhaps both.   

[Grand Inquisitor]

With scroll gone, I think decks will become more 1-drop-centric.

This is not what I expect.  I think that what scroll represents is the Gushbond Engine (sure there's Flash, but the most common exploitation is...).  Once this engine rotates out*, people will be forced towards the next best engine.  When Gifts left, people were allowed to switch immediately to Gush, however, unless they do something really strange with the B&R or there's a high powered printing in a new expansion, it'll be a regression towards intuition/TfK/confidant.

What does this mean?  In terms of metagame share, it means a lessening for workshops and an increase for storm combo.  I expect slower Painter lists, Bomber shells, and perhaps some well formulated combo-shop lists as well.  Non-gush Oath could also be a strong contender, MD'ing blessing as a hedge against Painter, but with a much better stax game, and less focus on YWill or combo finish.  In general where as the fundamental turn right now is densely packed at turn two, I think it will be more smoothely spread across turns one through four.


*Not that scroll getting nixed will cause the wholesale abandonment of Gush, but it will be relegated to propping up primary strategies of aggro control, or 0 cost storm ramping, instead of being a self-contained combo in and of itself.

I'm speculating at this point, but I think that either Scroll or Brainstorm will get hit, perhaps both.

If brainstorm gets restricted, we will indeed be walking into largely uncharted territories.  Through this lense, I can see ponder's printing as a 'fixed' version of brainstorm; quite interesting.  I, for one, would look forward to a completely wide open new format to explore.

[Shock Wave]

I still think that hitting Brainstorm is a mistake. It's a great card but it does not win the game or provide a broken effect. To be honest, I don't really care if it does get nixed, but I think hitting Scroll and Flash are more than enough to shake up the format and provide a greater level of interactivity. Oh, and if they can undo the dredge mechanic altogether, that would make me do my happy dance.  . In any case, I'm excited to see what happens.

[Moxlotus]

Nothing or Scroll.  If they are going to hit scroll, I can see them doing it before the summer season and the Vintage champs.  Scroll hits pretty much every criteria that they have used for restriction (tutor, showing up in large numbers, every deck trying to abuse it).

What would the metagame look like if they nerfed Scroll?

Hell if I know.  I thought combo would go nuts after 3sphere got the axe and was 100% off the mark.  But I'll give it a shot anyway.

Deeznaught-esque decks don't prety on Scroll and don't require it, they'd do fine.
Stax would be better.
Slaver might be able to compete without Gush/bond decks being so crazy.
Fishies--that depends on how popular painter is.  The biggest problem it has is that damn 1/3 for 2 mana that shuts down attacking Bobs, Mages, and Ninjas.
Painter lists would probably get slower and more drain oriented.
As GI said, Angel Oath might find its way back.
Ichorid gets better with less decks being able to goldfish it.

But the big winner is Dark Ritual Combo--there would actaully be a reason to play it.

[Grand Inquisitor]

As GI said, Angel Oath might find its way back.

Actually, I was still talking about Tyrant Oath; I've always thought angels/platz/DSC, etc caused oath to be terribly under-powered.  It's just now they'll actually more of an oath deck and less of a hybrid of gushbond/oath depending on what the matchup required.

Fishies--that depends on how popular painter is.  The biggest problem it has is that damn 1/3 for 2 mana that shuts down attacking Bobs, Mages, and Ninjas.

Right, and also with Red WS Aggro still being a solid contender, I just don't see little men being good with so many metagame enemies, whether the format slows down or not.

[Harlequin]

I still stick by my 1cc (assuming Brainstorm doesn't get the axe .... which I consider unlikely because Legacy has it and it's doing just fine).  

Id like to point out that I have done very well with a Tyrant Oath deck running only 3 Ponders and 2 MS.  That was the configuration Jer and I did well with pre-Reflection, pre-straterbury.  I concede that Reflection TSOath is a more raw-busted deck, however the Show&Tell deck (running Scroll-lite) that Jer and I used definatly took its fair share of 30-person victories.  And -still- that deck would hinge on 4x BS, 4xPonder.  With the likely addition of Thoughtsieze.  

Slaver could definately have a shot, and would be on the scene in a big way.   But even though it runs Thirst,  It would definately be running Brainstorm, Duress, Welder and likely some non-zero numbers of maindeck REBs and/or Ponders.

The only non-shop deck that would comperably 1cc light would be a Dark-Bomberman running Confidant over Ponder (but probably Sowrds and/or Duress effects).  

Then to counter that, you have shops running Chalice.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I still stick by my 1cc

Maybe we're misunderstanding each other.  I'm not saying there's going to be a large decline in 1cc slots in decks.  I'm saying there won't be an increase.  The format is already chock full of cheap search and duress effects.  I think my predicted slowing of the early/mid game will cause a slight adjustment away from these cards towards more powerful turn 2-4 cards.  Or at least not an increase to the existing early game pressure.

[Yare]

Based on what I've read and my own gut instinct, I'm going to predict:

+Merchant Scroll
+Serum Powder
-Dream Halls

I was tempted to put Flash or Bazaar, but I don't think either of those is going to happen. Dream Halls will finally get off the list, as it deserves. Gush might get put back on, but because I don't think the DCI like to rerestrict stuff relatively soon after unrestricting, I think it's gonna stay legal for at least another cycle, mainly to see if the absence of Merchant Scroll hurts Gush enough. Serum Powder will be the surprise thing here. Brainstorm will stick around again, because I just don't think it's quite broken enough to get restricted. I guess they could also do something of "Legacy is no longer tied to Vintage" proportions, but somehow I doubt it because I feel like Vintage is a format defined by its static nature, so a huge stake up would kind of go against that, and probably aggravate us all in the process.

Note that the above is more gut instinct than anything based on analysis. I haven't been following the format enough lately to really have a good impression.

[Akuma]

I sure hope nothing happens to Brainstorm, that would set a bad precedent IMO. Merchant Scroll could be restricted based on principle since crap like Enlightened Tutor and Personal Tutor is restricted, but I would rather see those two unrestricted than Merchant Scroll restricted.

I actually enjoy the consistency and versatility that these cards bring to the format. They allow so many tactical plays and responses that it would be a shame to see either of them removed. I know that the format would not "fall apart" or turn into a combo winter if either of them were gone. It would, however, allow strong plays to be much stronger than they are now, since it would be more difficult to hedge against them or answer them immediately. Of course they also enable strong plays since they are tools for consistency and versatility...

I hope the "sweeping changes to Vintage" that Steve is referring to involve more unrestrictions. For example, give decks a reason to reach later stages of the game and use Mana Drain (unrestrict Fact or Fiction). Why is Gifts Ungiven restricted? It was a very good card for the format, skill intensive and archetype defining. There are a lot of things that could be done to stir things up without restricting anything. I strongly believe that Vintage will be able to adjust and adapt to almost all of the strategies that surface. There is always going to be a foil. And it's not like black jack, many games go to time (just ask Steve).

The only thing that is a bit odd is Dredge, since it is not affected by "standard" measures (counters and discard).

It would be exciting if WotC had "trial period" unrestrictions for Vintage (and Legacy) in which they could let something off the list for one cycle, see how it fares and then decide if it stays or goes. Speculation can't be trusted, Mind Twist and Black Vise are fine examples. Where are they now? Many believed that Mind Twist would make the format more luck based and decimate many an opponent, and Black Vise would be devastating (Sea --> Ritual --> Triple Vise, go) leading to another "Vise Age", but in the end, they were totally harmless (useless actually).

[Triple_S]

I'd prefer a set of restrictions like this:

Brainstorm
Merchant Scroll
Bazaar
Flash

Unrestrict
the useless stuff