The Mountains Win Again

[Myriad Games]

Thanks for the report Namingway! Glad to hear you had a good time playing the deck.

I agree with the general sentiment that Negator is too dangerous in the current environment. I think Mirror Entity could work its way into builds running creatures as prison elements. You'd want at least 12 creatures to make him work running, preferably more, but something running Gaddock Teeg, Glowriders, Kataki, etc could consider going that route.

[Guli]

Thanks for the report Namingway! Glad to hear you had a good time playing the deck.

I agree with the general sentiment that Negator is too dangerous in the current environment. I think Mirror Entity could work its way into builds running creatures as prison elements. You'd want at least 12 creatures to make him work running, preferably more, but something running Gaddock Teeg, Glowriders, Kataki, etc could consider going that route.

The synergy i see between TeeG and Mirror Entity is that Teeg stops mass removal like Wrath of God and Massacre and Mirror Entity could stop the low mass removal like Pyroclasm. I am unsure how Mirror Entity would work out though. It might be a power yet to be discovered for white fish versions. Hypotheticly if you have 3-4 mana and 2-3 creatures there could be a lot of damage. The damage next turn would most likely be lethal if the road is clear of blockers. It looks slow but it could be deadly fast in those dead moments when opponent wants to quickly recover. A negator is 5 damage a turn I can see this baby being responsible for 14+damage given the right circumstances. Interesting stuff

[andrewpate]

I don't think Gaddock Teeg really hoses much Vintage-playable mass removal except for Massacre and I guess Engineered Explosives.  He's better because he stops some kill conditions (e.g. Empty the Warrens, Tendrils of Agony), big Stax cards (e.g. Smokestack, Triskelion), and Force of Will.  But I think that the merits/weaknesses of Teeg have been pretty well done to death in these forums.

Mirror Entity is clearly better than Phyrexian Negator, which is a huge liability in this environment.  That said, I'm not 100% sold that extra clock speed is better than extra disruption right now.  If you run white, I think that Glowrider is a better call right now.  Then again, I'll acknowledge that the card is strong and could be effective if you had a critical mass of low-power, high-board relevance creatures but kept letting the game get away from you one or two turns before winning.

[Guli]

I don't think Gaddock Teeg really hoses much Vintage-playable mass removal except for Massacre and I guess Engineered Explosives.  He's better because he stops some kill conditions (e.g. Empty the Warrens, Tendrils of Agony), big Stax cards (e.g. Smokestack, Triskelion), and Force of Will.  But I think that the merits/weaknesses of Teeg have been pretty well done to death in these forums.

Mirror Entity is clearly better than Phyrexian Negator, which is a huge liability in this environment.  That said, I'm not 100% sold that extra clock speed is better than extra disruption right now.  If you run white, I think that Glowrider is a better call right now.  Then again, I'll acknowledge that the card is strong and could be effective if you had a critical mass of low-power, high-board relevance creatures but kept letting the game get away from you one or two turns before winning.

I am perfectly aware of the advantages when running Teeg.
Pyrokinesis,Snuff out,Massacre,Damnation,Eng Expl,Smokestack (will eventually become a mass remover),Contagion
Some are more relevant than others sure i agree but you don't want to lose to a random wrath of god either. Teeg is a T1 hoser, I promoted it long enough. (gush,storm,force,misd,skeletal scr,fof,gifts,...)
That said, pyroclasm is a real threat in my eyes. You better find an answer to it or lose your bears and eventually the game. Ive sold that problem with Meddling Mage but not all decks want to run blue.
Another idea I can see working smoothly is playing with good mana denial with kataki, shamans, strips, magus and finish quickly with Mirror Entity using the mana advantage as a win condition (damage)

[mr cheese]

I have a general question for all of the regulars posting in the thread.

My meta has over the next little while been basically becoming narrower.

I would say that the strategies are almost always.

1. Graveyard decks-Ichorid, Dragon, Bomberman
2. Storm decks, and the like-GAT, Warrens, Tendrils
3. Creatures-Soldiers, Goblins, Elves, R/G Beatz
4. Workshop decks-Stax, Aggro etc.

In your opinion what would the best archtype of Mountains for my meta, knowing these four strategies. The ones I am considering are the 3-Colour I have been playing, the RB Poppet version most people are playing, and the RW Prison version. If there is another version that may be better than all three of these, please let me know.

[Myriad Games]

Whenever you have this sort of idea of what the metagame will look like, try to focus on the best cards for the job, particularly those that serve multiple purposes. Leyline of the Void, for example, has uses against Ichorid, Dragon, Bomberman, Storm combo, and Stax, whereas Grim Lavamancer is good against Stax, Aggro, Elves, R/G Beatz, Bomberman, Goblins, etc.

[mr cheese]

I have started working on a differnt version without Mpuntains, and I'm going to see how that goes.

[mr cheese]

If anyone's interested, this is what I am working on...

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=34926.msg488788#msg488788

A meta deck like Mountains, just without them.

[Myriad Games]

My latest build focuses on R/B options. Has anyone has recent success with a R/W version? Most other builds I've seen floating around are three color or prison based builds. Just wondering if any of the more classic style builds are posting results in your local area.

[DJ_DDP]

EDIT:
This one did not won Danish Nationals, this one was in top 8 at the Tournement the day before, making top 4


This deck won the danish national:

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mountain
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Badlands

3 Goblin Vandal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Yixlid Jailer
4 Dark Confident

2 Shattering Spree
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Sudden Shock
1 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Duress
4 Leyline of the Void

Sideboard
1 Pyrokinesis
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Shattering Spree
2 Extirpate
2 Cruel edict
4 Chalice of the Void

DJ_DDP
Martin

[Prometheon]

4 Jailers MD!? That seems extremely superfluous with Leyline MD as well.

Edit: And considering he runs no Lotus, Ruby or Jet, this is probably in a very underdeveloped no-proxy metagame where Ichorid is one of the few "budget" options.

[DJ_DDP]

Argh crap, i posted the wrong decklist this one was in top 8 in a tournement the day before Nationals.

This is the one that won Nationals, which is a non-proxie tournement.

LAND(18)

1 Sulphorous Springs
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mountain
2 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Badlands

CREATURES(18)

3 Gorilla Shaman
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Rotting Giant
4 Dark Confident

THE REST(24)

4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Sudden Shock
1 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Duress
4 Leyline of the Void

SIDEBOARD(15)

3 Sudden Spoiling
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Shattering Spree
2 Extirpate
2 Cruel Edict

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

I placed 7th at a local tournament this week with the following list:

Main Deck:

4 Sphere of Restistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Pyrostatic Pilllar
4 Black Vise
4 Atog
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Dead/Gone
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
6 Mountain

Side Board:

3 Pithing Needle
4 Martyr of Ashes
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Ingot Chewer

My meta is VERY creature heavy at the moment.  Manaless Ichorid, Tinker.dec, Stax, Gro-a-Goyf are all super popular right now.  Among the creatures I frequently saw were Ichorid, Platinum Angel, Darksteel Collossus, Tarmogoyf, Quirion Dryad, Flametongue Kavu, and Magus of the Moon.  I honestly don't remember a time in Vintage history being this creature heavy.  I also don't remember seeing so many green and red creatures played.  I'm maindecing Dead/Gone just to deal with all this. 

Peace,

-Troy

[andrewpate]

Ingot Chewer is cute, but how often are you really hardcasting it for the 3/3 body?  Shattering Spree would be better most of the time, as far as I can tell, especially since you can take out Pyrostatic Pillar against most Stax decks and therefore avoid ending up creature light post-board.

[Troy_Costisick]

Ingot Chewer is cute, but how often are you really hardcasting it for the 3/3 body?  Shattering Spree would be better most of the time, as far as I can tell, especially since you can take out Pyrostatic Pillar against most Stax decks and therefore avoid ending up creature light post-board.

Yeah, but each replicated spell gets hit by the Spheres and Thorns.  I was just testing out the Ingot Chewer.  I was playing with Goblin Tinkerers before that.  During the entire tournament I did not hard cast a chewer once, but I also rarely had to sideboard it in.  I'm not sure what to think about it yet.

Peace,

-Troy

[Myriad Games]

Just to clarify, replicated copies of Shattering Spree do not cause damage from Pillar nor require the usual cost increases from Thorn / Sphere since they are put directly onto the stack and not played.

So if you wanted to copy Spree three times with one Thorn out, it would cost you    . Simply add more for each Sphere effect.

Regardless of the number of times you copy Spree (or any other replicate spell with CMC 3 or less), you'll only take damage from Pillar once.

[Troy_Costisick]

Just to clarify, replicated copies of Shattering Spree do not cause damage from Pillar nor require the usual cost increases from Thorn / Sphere since they are put directly onto the stack and not played.

So if you wanted to copy Spree three times with one Thorn out, it would cost you    . Simply add more for each Sphere effect.

Regardless of the number of times you copy Spree (or any other replicate spell with CMC 3 or less), you'll only take damage from Pillar once.

I see.  I didn't realize that.  Thanks!  Shattering Spree is looking like a better option.  I'm close to breaking the top 4 in my area.  I just need a few tweaks to the deck and to learn from my mistakes.  Hopefully, I can improve by the next tourney.  I really like TMWA, and I think this build has real potential in the current meta.

Peace,

-Troy

[Myriad Games]

Check this beast out, from the upcoming Morningtide set:

Taurean Mauler   
 
Creature - Shapeshifter   
Rare
Changeling (This card is every creature type at all times)
Whenever an opponent plays a spell, you may put a +1/+1 counter on Taurean Mauler.
2/2

Thoughts?

[rkmancer]

Check this beast out, from the upcoming Morningtide set:

Taurean Mauler   
 
Creature - Shapeshifter   
Rare
Changeling (This card is every creature type at all times)
Whenever an opponent plays a spell, you may put a +1/+1 counter on Taurean Mauler.
2/2

Thoughts?

Fine creatures. .a new toy for us red player to play against Quiron Dryad n Goyf *ok. .maybe just dryad*. .
1st turn Ancient Tomb + ruby / SSG 'll make him must be bigger to deal one on one against Dryad. .
But the problem is. .how important he is against the others deck to be reasons to put him MD?
And how we protect him from StP and bounced spell? Chalice @1 should be include to plan. .

[TopSecret]

I could see Mauler having potential in the BR Hellbent versions of TMWA.

The main problem is that he's three mana, and he only beats.
He's also not good in the late game.
Also, his strength depends on the opponent's deck.

He is nuts if you get him down on turn 1 or 2.

In BR TMWA,
Mauler has the potential to be huge if you drop him early against Gro/cantrip decks after initial hand disruption,
since the opponent would have to play more cantrips to recover.
I don't know how much that situation would come up, but it may be worth investigating.

Would he be better than Magus of the Moon in BR TMWA?
Would he be better than Poppet?

Also, just putting it out there, but Mauler can be dropped by Goblin Lackey.
Though not necessarily more broken than other guys dropped off Lackey it's something to consider.
He's not tribal dependent and he doesn't suck without an early Lackey, so perhaps if some other Goblin or Changeling creatures can be found to supplement him,
TMWA with four Lackeys and a few individually powerful "goblins" may be worth considering.

I don't know if anyone else saw Preeminent Captain:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=62352&d=1197954970

With him and Lackey, you could drop both the Mauler and Changeling Titan consistently and uncounterably!
Joten Grunt is also a Soldier, meaning he's got super synergy with the Captain.
In theory, this is potentially a good strategy against both GAT and Stax.

[Troy_Costisick]

Check this beast out, from the upcoming Morningtide set:

Taurean Mauler   
 
Creature - Shapeshifter   
Rare
Changeling (This card is every creature type at all times)
Whenever an opponent plays a spell, you may put a +1/+1 counter on Taurean Mauler.
2/2

Thoughts?

This is another solid add for TMWA.  I like that he starts at a 2/2.  With crearture decks becoming more and more popular, it's good to have someone that starts out almost as big as a Kird Ape.  He has potential, especially in vintage, of outgrowing a 'Goyf, so I definately like him.  But choosing between him and perhaps a 'Goyf in your TMWA deck could be hard.  The Mauler has a real chance to get HUGE, but he doesn't come into play that way.  The 'Goyf comes into play big.  That's nice. 

I really respect wizards for how they are working to make Red more and more relevant in competitive play.  In the last few sets they've given us Magus of the Moon, SSG, Shattering Spree, Ingot Chewer, Sudden Shock, Boom/Bust, Stingscourger, Dead/Gone and new the Mauler.  Things are looking better and better IMO for mono-red non-goblin decks.

How about this for a mono-red creature lineup?:

Atog
Taurean Mauler
Magus of the Moon
Stingscourger
Simian Spirit Guide

Peace,

-Troy

[wiley]

How about this card.  She shuts off gush and bstorm/ponder/portent/ any other draw cards (of which we dont run) and siphens life.  Granted your opponent would get to free tutor first but that can usually be dealt with (reb, pyroblast, pillar, burn, etc.) and the ability to shut off draw cards, even for a limited time, is pretty powerfull.  Plus it gives them one more must answer threat.


With this, the mauler, magus, and the ogre I could see a build that abuses a vial at three.  Vialing in this lady in response to gush or bstorm is pretty strong, especially if its after they drew for the turn.  It could also be turned into a grim tutor for you if vialed eot.

I doubt that it will have a place due to the howling mine curse, but I thought it would be good for discussion.

[TopSecret]

I really like the idea of playing the above card, but there are some problems I can immediately see.

Firstly, as you mentioned, they get to tutor first.
This can be huge depending on the situation, since they can potentially "go off" next turn by searching out Yawgmoth's Will.
Of course, if they're not prepared to "go off" when their card draw is neutered, then this card is not all that dangerous.

The main problem I'm seeing is that the opponent can tutor for an answer to the creature, like bounce or straight creature removal.
If it's just bounce, you can replay Maralen next turn.
Depending on the situation, this can buy the opponent a threatening amount of time.
Against Stax, they can just search out Balance, and some GAT players are currently playing Fire//Ice maindeck*. Of course, Swords is also a popular card.
Given, having them use their draw to deal with your card and losing three life is not a bad deal.
If this card didn't have three toughness, I would say the Pyroclasm and Massacre reck it hardcore, but thankfully 'Clasm will just hit your other 2 or less toughness dudes.

Both of these problems are rather situational, so testing will be required to determine the awesomeness of this card.
Either way, the interactions of this card should make it hella fun to play.

Unfortunately, the Duress effects of a black deck cannot stop the tutors of this card.
I hate to say it, but playing blue for counters may have some synergy with this card, since if you're already ahead on cards,
you can effectively soft lock your opponent with counters, and your opponent can effectively do the same to you, although the life loss does limit it.

What I'm really excited about is the synergy this card has with two powerful aggro-control cards:
Dark Confidant and Aven Mindcensor

Dark Confidant's draw works while this Maralen is in play, which means you have the advantage.
With Mindcensor in play, the opponent only gets to look through the top four, which breaks some of the symmetry.
Coincidentally, Vial on three can drop both Mindcensor and Maralen,
and an end of turn Maralen to get you whatever you want first is really really sick.

Certainly, this card is worth testing, and hopefully the opponent tutoring first (if Maralen isn't Vialed in) will not be enough to offset such an interesting card.

* Having three toughness is amazing.

[wiley]

Again, not sure on how competative it would be but you could use things like mindslicer and bogardan anvil along with her and the ogre to run a tigh control on the opponents hand.  Note that with an empty hand the only thing the opponent will be able to do while you have maralen and anvil out is search for an answer to either maralen or the anvil.

A deck might be feasable with 8 duresses, anvils, maralen, hyms, slicers and ogres.  The only problem would be dealing with strong early card advantage spells (reb maybe?), and answers to maralen (just play another one to keep the lock going) or anvil (they have an empty hand, just took three to the dome, have been damaging themselves throught the game, and you have maralen + other critters and can tutor up another anvil or burn ftw).

I have no clue how reliable you could get the soft lock going, but I would imagine it would spell game 9 times out of 10, especially with 3 damage a turn to the dome.  I like the idea, I just suck at actually building decks :/

:EDIT:
A quickly thrown together list would be (Remember that I created this off the top of my head w/o testing and watching over my shoulder for my boss <.<)

// Lands
        8 Swamp
        4 Badlands
        4 Bloodstained Mire
        2 Polluted Delta
// Creatures
        4 Dark Confidant
        4 Jagged Poppet
        3 Magus of the Moon
        4 Mindslicer
        3 Maralen of the Mornsong
// Spells
        3 Diabolic Edict
        2 Extirpate
        4 Lightning Bolt
        4 Duress
        2 Hymn to Tourach
        2 Thoughtseize
        2 Unmask
// Artifacts
        2 Anvil of Bogardan
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Ruby
// Sideboard
SB:  3 Pithing Needle
SB:  4 Planar Void
SB:  4 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast

[Xyre]

I really like Top Secret's suggestion of Aven Mindcensor + Maralen. Initially, I had my doubts about Maralen because it felt like it only slowed down, rather than stopped, GAT because they can search for bounce. However, I suspect that this isn't that significant a problem.

The problem bounce gives you, of course, is that it gives them one turn to play their nonsense in which they're unrestricted by the "no draw" clause. This may be something that has to be accepted with Maralen. Fortunately, most GAT decks don't play many bounce spells (or just play one out of the board to get with Cunning Wish), making that powerful.

There are two major problems related to Maralen:

1) Maralen makes Flash more troublesome, as they can now skip straight to combo.
2) Maralen + Dark Confidant is a nonbo.

I think the best deck for this is a B/W aggro-control deck. The solution of playing counters doesn't solve for the Flash issue above, because they can play better to their protection (with more counters and the first search). More testing will likely be needed.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Good point.  Flash, Oath, and maybe even Goblins will all be imrpoved with her in play.  She may end up being sideboard tech vs. Gush Decks.  I'm not sure how it interacts with Dredge.  I just can't see allowing your opponent a free tutor every turn being good in Vintage.

Peace,

-Troy

[wiley]

against flash, well you have at least one creature already on the table, that's not in their best interests.

And I'm not sure I follow on the D. Confidant + Maralen being a nonbo.  Confidant's "draw" places the card in hand, so it gets around maralen's restriction.  Unless your talking about the life loss, in which case you should be able to race relatively easily after tutoring up a way to clear the opposing board threats.

Also it completely stops the dredge mechanic, no draws means nothing to replace.

[rkmancer]

I really like the idea of playing the above card, but there are some problems I can immediately see.

and some GAT players are currently playing Fire//Ice maindeck.

What I'm really excited about is the synergy this card has with two powerful aggro-control cards:
Dark Confidant and Aven Mindcensor

Dark Confidant's draw works while this Maralen is in play, which means you have the advantage.
With Mindcensor in play, the opponent only gets to look through the top four, which breaks some of the symmetry.
Coincidentally, Vial on three can drop both Mindcensor and Maralen,
and an end of turn Maralen to get you whatever you want first is really really sick.

Certainly, this card is worth testing, and hopefully the opponent tutoring first (if Maralen isn't Vialed in) will not be enough to offset such an interesting card.

-maybe Fire//Ice won't be a problem. .since her toughness is 3. .

I really impress with your idea about using vial to minimize side effect of 'opponent's 1st tutor'. .
 with enough powerful discard and/or maybe orim's chant. .we can delay tha game until vial get 3 counters and finally make a total lock. .
 Maralen make the possibility to run  TMWA come again. .since we don't have to contain full army of Magus / Mindcensor but
 we can simply search for them which needed soon after we resolve Maralen. .
 Adding  give us Sword there are not only superb opponent's creature removal. .but also self creature in order to gain life in some case. .
 and also Jotun Grunt to recycle what was tutored
 The problem is usual for this kind of deck. .what if vial not there in the opening hand. .

If I have to start a testing. .here's my decklist in raw :

7 Duress / Thoughtseize
1 Hide//Seek
1 Pyroblast
1 Dead//Gone
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Orim's Chant
3 Sword of Plowshare
4 Aether's Vial

3 Marulen of the Mornsong
3 Magus of The Moon
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Stingscourger
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Dark Confidant

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

1 Maze of Ith
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Plain
2 Plateau
2 Badlands
4 Scrubland
3 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained Mire

[madmanmike25]

I got bored and looked at Morningtide spoilers.  I thought this card might have potential here.

From mtgsalvation.com

***************
Countryside Crusher      1RR
Creature - Giant Warrior 
At the beginning of your upkeep, reveal the top card of your library. If it's a land card, put it into your graveyard and repeat this process.
Whenever a land card is put into your graveyard from anywhere, put a +1/+1 counter on Countryside Crusher.
3/3
***************
Since fewer moxen and more land is the trendy thing to do, this guy can potentially start beating for 4-5 next turn.  Also, he increases your card quality by putting lands in your GY.  If you already have the 3 lands in play to cast him(or 2 lands and 1 mox), that should be enough to keep you in the game and let you cast whatever non-card you reveal and put back on top of your library. 

Fetchlands also give him a +1/+1.  So do your Wastelands.

Consider him in conjunction with Dark Confidant.  Turn 2 Confiant followed by a turn 3 Crusher provides both quantity AND quality.   Imagine if you played with Sensei's Divining Top as well. 

Just some thoughts for you non-Workshop and non-blue players.

Good luck,
Mike

P.S.  I think giving your opponent a free tutor first by using Maralen is a bad idea, but prove me wrong.  With vials, you are talking about her coming into play turn 4.  Wheeeeeee. 

EDIT:  Forgot cc

[Jo84]

I like this guy too, but too bad you couldn´t cast him off an Ancient Tomb. Greater Gargadon might also be a card to consider in combination with this guy.