The Mountains Win Again

[Myriad Games]

Morningtide will definitely revitalize and reinvigorate the development and many options of TMWA. I'm looking forward to seeing what lies ahead.

[Troy_Costisick]

Yeah,

Check out the synergy between Magus of the Moon, Countryside Crusher, and Landslide.  All three strong on their own.  All three stronger together.

Peace,

-Troy

[merfolkOTPT]

How does this deck beat Workshop aggro, the seemingly most popular deck right now.  They obviously aren't hurt that much by Magus, since they run it too.  Their dudes are bigger, and usually wearing swords of pro red and blue.  They respond better to resistors, so how does this work?  The only thing that makes sense to me is Kataki, because honestly how often is goblin vandal gonna get through?  I also was considering viashino heretic, as killing a juggernaut and dealing 4 to the face seems good.

Also, how often are people playing glowrider in a deck like this seems good especially if you are playing kataki, admittedly this seems more like the prison version, but I haven't really seen a good thread for that version yet.

[Myriad Games]

Versus Workshop Aggro your best bets are Shattering Spree, Viashino Heretic, and possibly Ingot Chewer.

There are definitely a lot of options within the archetype, but I think that any deck running a significant amount of red should consider these options. Those running white can run Swords to Plowshares and those running black have a host of good removal available that's not negated by Sword of Fire & Ice.

[Troy_Costisick]

How does this deck beat Workshop aggro, the seemingly most popular deck right now.  They obviously aren't hurt that much by Magus, since they run it too. 

Yeah, but when they play it is very important.  If you get your Magus out first followed by some fast disruption and/or agrro threats, this deck type is very successful against Workshop.  Having all your lands suddenly changed to mountains makes playing those spheres less attractive.  Without the spheres in play, WksAgro losses a lot of its punch.  Since Thorn of Amethyst still lets me play my beaters without increasing their cost, the effects of that card are mostly nullified.

Peace,

-Troy

[Myriad Games]

Lany Chabot-Laroche took 1st place at the Quebec Invitational this past Saturday, playing a version of The Mountains Win Again.

His list is available here.

[Wagner]

Lany Chabot-Laroche took 1st place at the Quebec Invitational this past Saturday, playing a version of The Mountains Win Again.

For the last time please, it is not a version of TMWA. It's not because it plays Red/Black disruption that it must be tagged with that deck name.

[hauntedechos]

@ Wagner:  You have to get used to the idea that if you are playing such a deck, it gets dumped into classifications based on history.  It's kinda like how U/W based decks useing utility creatures and disruption are always classified as Fish.

[Myriad Games]

No disrespect intended, Lany.     I tend to include decks in the TMWA family based on the card pool. Since I've used all the cards in your decklist in various builds of TMWA over the last few years, I extend the moniker. This is certainly not meant to downplay your success with the deck nor take anything away from your deck building skills. I'm not trying to take credit for decks similar to TMWA, but instead to highlight the shared aspects of similar decks.

At any rate, congratulations again on your success!

 

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

There was a Type 1 tournament at my local store after the Morningtide release event.  I think there were between 17-20 players.  I split for 1st place another guy playing Tropical Storm in the finals.  My deck list may look a little strange.  My meta is super aggro-heavy.  There's plenty fo goblin decks, elf decks, flash decks, R/G beats, and I used to see a lot of ichorid and figure it will make a comback soon.  Anyway, here is my decklist:

Creatures 
3   Atog   
4   Elvish Spirit Guide   
4   Magus of the Moon   
4   Simian Spirit Guide   
4   Tarmogoyf   

Spells 
3  Dead/Gone

Enchantments 
2   Blood Moon
4   Aether Flash       

Artifacts 
1   Black Lotus   
1   Lotus Petal   
1   Mana Crypt   
1   Mox Emerald   
1   Mox Jet   
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Ruby   
1   Mox Sapphire   
1   Sol Ring   
4   Sphere of Resistance   
4   Thorn of Amethyst   
1   Trinisphere   

Lands 
1   Ancient Tomb   
1   Crystal Vein   
2   Forest   
2   Gemstone Mine   
4   Great Furnace   
4   Taiga   

 
Sideboard     (15 cards) 
4   Ingot Chewer   
1   Dead/Gone   
4   Pithing Needle   
2   Ancient Grudge
2   Red Elemental Blast
2   Pyroblast


Peace,

-Troy

[Myriad Games]

Congratulations on the victory! I've often toyed with the idea of running Aether Flash but it's casting cost always seemed prohibitively high. How did it perform for you?

Also, PM me your address and I'll send you a cool TMWA victory prize!

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Congratulations on the victory! I've often toyed with the idea of running Aether Flash but it's casting cost always seemed prohibitively high. How did it perform for you?

Actually, it's surprising how easy it is to cast it.  I was leary at first because of the double red and it's total 4cc, but I have found that it's not too hard to get it out by turn 2 at the latest.  The way I decided if it was worth trying or not was by looking at the combinations that could get it out on Turn 1.  I figured if I can power it turn one with multiple different card configurations, I'd have little trouble getting out by turn 2.  Here's how I typically cast it:

Gemstone Mine/Great Furnace/Taiga + Mox Ruby/Lotus Petal/SSG + Mana Crypt
Gemstone Mine/Great Furnace/Taiga + SSG + Any Mox + Sol Ring
Gemstone Mine/Great Furnace/Taiga + SSG + Any Mox + ESG
Crystal Vein/Ancient Tomb + SSG + Mox Ruby/Lotus Petal
Black Lotus + Any Land or Mox
Mox Ruby + SSG + Mana Crypt
Mox Ruby + SSG + ESG + Sol Ring

So there's plenty of cards that all can lead directly to casting it turn 1 or 2, but obviously some of those call for pretty heavy card disadvantage.  And really, it's much more common for me to cast Magus of the Moon, Blood Moon, or Trinisphere on the first turn to slow them down followed by Aether Flash on the second turn to lock their creatures out.  Since both Tarmogoyf and Atog can survive the blast from an Aether Flash, I can just hang back until I draw one of them and then with beat down. 

As far as A-Flash's performance goes, it's an auto win game 1 vs. Goblins, Ichorid, and Flash.  Combined with Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon it really puts the hurt on R/G beats.  It's obviously a dead draw vs. any Storm deck with the lone exception of Empty the Warrens.  Against GAT, it *can* prove useful.  It kills Dryad.  However, they can save the Tog.  So it's sort of a toss up there.  Against Stax/MUD, it's not too bad game one.  It kills off Welders and Metalworkers before they have a chance to use their abilities.  It's not something they expect, and can make a difference in the first game.  Tho I usually side board them out Game 2 and 3 for artifact hate.  Against Oath, it stops the token creatures from Forbidden Orchard, but since I win using creature beatdown, it's sort of a wash there.  If I had to pick a weakest matchup, it would be against Oath.  That's the reason I have 3 Dead/Gone main deck and one in the SB.  Oh, and they're also useful vs. DSC.  In my particular meta, aggro is probably close to 40% or more of the decks.  Every time I go I have to face goblins, elves, squirrels, apes, and flash combo.  There used to be a lot of Ichorid as well.  So anyway, in my meta, it can serve just as much as an auto win as Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, and Trinisphere can. 

Peace,

-Troy

[orgcandman]

edit: forget what I wrote. against rules.

[VorpalBunnyDuby]

So i've been working on a mountains win again deck for an upcoming tourney. My meta is pretty diverse but made up most of combo, gat and fish type decks. I've been testing this list against bomberman and dreadnaught decks to get a feel for how it plays out. So far it seems to have the tools but has trouble sealing the deal.
Mountain v.2
4 confidant
4 thoughtseize
2 duress
4 magus of the moon
3 aven mindcensor
3 swords to plowshares
3 jotun grunt
2 kataki, wars wage
1 slaughter pact
1 demonic tutor
1 demonic consult
4 mogg fanatic
1 anceint tomb
1 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 lotus
5 mox
solring
2 badland
2 plateau
2 scrubland
4 mire
2 delta
1 mountain
1 swamp
1 stingscorger
3 jitte
Thoughts on the deck so far:
I'm not sure that kataki in the main deck is a great choice for my meta and in testing alot of times i get stuck with white cards in my hand after resolving a magus of the moon. I have a week or so till the tourney and will be getting some playtesting in this weekend. I'm looking forward to some advice and criticism so feel free to reply

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Well...my first thought is that Magus of the Moon has some wicked bad synergy with your current mix of lands.  You don't even have a basic plains.  And what's with adding in a basic mountain?  If you play the Magus, you're gonna have nothing but mountains in play.

How important is it to you to have 3 colors in your deck?

Peace,

-Troy

[VorpalBunnyDuby]

I've actually been considering dropping the white cards altogether since i can't seem to get the mana base to be completely stable. About the single mountain, i added it due to the fear of wasteland killing off all of my red sources. Perhaps a Red/Black mountain deck would run alittle smoother with Magus out, plus that countryside crusher dude looks pretty good for cardadvantage. If i had to come up a list off the top of my head i would throw together something like this:
4 countryside crusher
4 magus of the moon
4 fanatic
2 stingscourger
4 duress
4 unmask
4 jagged poppet
4 snuff out
4 simian spirit guide
4 chalice of the void
3 jitte// maybe more moxen to accel out 3 drops?
1 lotus
1 jet
1 ruby
4 badlands
4 mire
2 delta
6 swamp
I basicly took the poppet deck from gen-con(might be a different tourny) and added the crusher for some psuedo draw effect, and chalice to help out against moxen and cheap spells. Fanatic can shot confidants and stingscourger can get rid of big artifact men for a turn.

[rkmancer]

Countryside Crusher is horrible for your list especially because it costs double red and you only run 16 lands (6 fetch?). .
In many case this giant won't be a monster, just vanilla creature 3/3 or 4/4. .

[VorpalBunnyDuby]

I'll agree with you on the land count not really bumping him up to any mammoth size. If your already running confidant like the 3 color list i posted than hes by no means great. I was merely suggesting him in a r/b poppet type build with usually plays high cc spells tha makes confidant less good. Getting him on the table means your getting business with every draw.

[Suicideking]

Country side crusher is very good in this deck because once you get a few lands out you dont need to draw them.  Crusher will increase your threats that you will draw, and that ability will almost overshadow the actual counters. 

[Troy_Costisick]

Country side crusher is very good in this deck because once you get a few lands out you dont need to draw them.  Crusher will increase your threats that you will draw, and that ability will almost overshadow the actual counters. 

I don't know.  I've working with Crusher a lot lately.  I'm having a hard time building around him.  At the very least, I think he has to go in a mono-red deck.  The double red in his casting cost makes him difficult to get out if you are splitting colors.  Also, he needs to be in a deck that takes advantage of his "land-goes-to-the-GY" ability.  So I'd suggest throwing in Wasteland, Stripmine, Raze, and maybe even Landslide.  I'm just not sure he's type 1 material just yet.  I know he's got potential, but I'm having a hard time unlocking it.

VorpalBunnyDuby, if you think there may be a lot of GAT at your tourney, you might try the Taurean Mauler.  He can match the Dryad, and if you can power him out turn 1, every Mox your opponent plays pumps him up.  Something to think about.  Also, you might want to look at Diabolic Edict or Cruel Edict for crature removal in your B/R decklist.  I've always liked them.  Also, what happened to Bob in that list?

Peace,

-Troy

[VorpalBunnyDuby]

I just think that in the r/b list bob really hurts you more than helps you. DOnt get me wrong, bob is a savage card for any deck that plays black but taking a look at the average manacost of your threats seems pretty scary. Over half of them cost more than 3 and if you plan on playing snuff outs for the alternative cost than your going to be taking a solid 8 damage if you flip it with bob. Adding top might help that out but do you really want to be spending mana to peek at your top three instead of playing down a threat that turn?
I'm going to be testing both builds out this week, hopefully, so i can get some results on here to further some discussion. I'd also like to thank everyone for their help so far

[VorpalBunnyDuby]

@Troy_Costisick: mauler seems like the anti-dryad card but would probably end up being bounced if he ever got out of control. I dont think that he would be an optimal turn one play since he doesn't really affect anything and his pump ability is alittle weak. I think i'd almost rather play pyrostatic pillar just to score some free damage right off the bat, not to mention its an enchantment and costs mana less. idk, i'll probably end up testing him to see how he works out, thanks for the idea
Speaking of pyro pillar, has anyone had good success with that card? Turboing that thing out turn one seems pretty sweet in vintage.

[Myriad Games]

Through all my testing and playing since GenCon, I have not been able to make a viable three-color build with Magus. I think builds using Magus need to be two color to capitalize on consistency. I concur that Crusher needs to be built around. And yes, Pyrostatic Pillar is good at racking up damage.

[TheDeadMan]

@Troy_Costisick: mauler seems like the anti-dryad card but would probably end up being bounced if he ever got out of control

Ive been trying this card on and off, the problem with him is 2 fold. 1st He is slower than goyf which is the new mainstay of gat 2nd For a 3 drop to be useful in an aggro control deck the card needs to make an immediate game changing impact which he just does not do.

Speaking of pyro pillar, has anyone had good success with that card? Turboing that thing out turn one seems pretty sweet in vintage.

This card has seen play in virtually every red based deck I have run with great success. The only problem with the card though is it requires support disruption, usually in the form of ankh of mishra/black vise.

On the issue of crusher, I feel in vintage it will never have a true impact, given line lasher fell out of favor, and it has an on color card to make it infin big: life from the loom. Right now I believe one of the most brutal cards in the format is price of progress. It works under a magus, and virtually every deck is going to take a minimum  of 4 damage off it. 

[Wagner]

It works under a magus, and virtually every deck is going to take a minimum  of 4 damage off it.

I disagree, with all the Gush going around, Unless you have a Magus out, it is very unlikely you will do more than 4 damage, and 4 non-tartaged damage for a 2 mana spell is far from being on par. It would however be great against Oath/Shop decks, but without any fast damage support, I'm not sure it can make the cut.

[TheDeadMan]

The situation you just described is actually a very common mistake vs a synergistic hate style deck like I play. Also with the afore mentioned cards in my post ankh/vise a play like that usually will cost games given your getting attacked on all fronts. For reference though he is a link to the deck that I am refering to, it is 6th place http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35128.0

[VorpalBunnyDuby]

SO i did some testing last night for about 3 hours with my r/b poppet deck vs my friends combo deck, i'm pretty sure it was super long or something. Here are some observations:
I was usually able to open with an unmask/ thoughtseize and power out a chalice at one. On the play was pretty devastating, but i wouldn't always be able to land a beat stick fast enough due to there being alot of three drops in my deck. SO all he had to do was hurkyls recall me and win
Crusher didn't really do much of anything in the games he showed up, usually though i didn't have anything better in my hand to play. So maybe crusher isn't that great but i think i still need to do some more testing.
Another thing was that everygame would have been harder for my friend if he had to work through something like leyline or pyrostatic pillar. Since alot of my meta is combo and gat type decks perhaps one of the two is required main deck? I could see pillar or leyline being prettty useful against alot of top decks, and like people have said, its good at gettting free damage.
All in all, the deck did nicely, and was about 50/50ish against combo, we didn't play any sideboard games. I might lower the number of crushers and possibly cut stingscourgers from the main for pyropillars or leyline, just something to play around with during the next time i test.

[VorpalBunnyDuby]

Has anyone tried out Rakdos Augermage? He looks pretty sweet acting like a duress effect everturn after he waits a turn and isn't too shabby in combat thanks to his first strike. At worst he pitchs to unmask at best he can help you maintain your hellbent poppets and keep the opposing player's options limited. I might be trying to be too cute including him though, it might make the deck look like an old type 2 rakdos deck 

[feyd]

My red deck seems like it acts a lot like the typical TMWA-style-deck running land destruction, direct damage, creature removal, and of course, beats.  But I digress.  A situation came up recently that my friend and I were arguing about. 

     When magus of the moon is in play it turns all non-basics into mountains but do they still count as non-basics or onyl as mountains?
    Will price of progress deal damage to my oppoenent even when magus of the moon is in play?

[credmond]

From gatherer/oracle  . . .  12/1/2004 Non-basic lands that are turned into Mountains with Blood Moon are still non-basic. Blood Moon does nothing to change the land's Supertype.