The Mountains Win Again

[Myriad Games]

Mr. Cheese,
     You could always run Spectral Lynx.   It works well against Dryad, Tarmogoyf, kills any x/2, and lives to tell the tale. It can even stave off Salvagers and Tog!
     Grim Lavamancer does a good job at taking out hordes of little guys and Unearth is an option for cheap recursion of whatever creature is key at present. Of course, if you're running enough white, you can run Silver Knight as well.


Also, congratulations to Lany on making another Top 8 with his version of TMWA!

[Myriad Games]

And another congratulatory Mountains hurrah for who made Top 8 with TMWA in Tokyo!

 

[Namingway]

Man-Prison no henkyaku! ^_^

Interesting Tokyo list. What interests me the most is the fact that the deck contains twelve Sphere effects.

[rkmancer]

Man-Prison no henkyaku! ^_^

Interesting Tokyo list. What interests me the most is the fact that the deck contains twelve Sphere effects.

Actually 13. .his deck obtain 1 Trinisphere itself inside. .it's kinda horror for anydeck but stax. .I'd glad to see his match up 

[mr cheese]

Could someone explain to me how the deck should be played, weak match ups, stropng match ups etc? I have never seen a deck like that before, and from what I have seen it would seem like a rogue deck to my metagame.

[rkmancer]

@Mr Cheese. .that deck adopted as TMWA with man-prison concept is a part of Mr Dan Yarrington's creation *if I'm not wrong* and discussed well in the previous topic of TMWA at page 8 which already closed as linked (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28929.0). .I could say this deck very strong against combo and weak against stax and  oath in my experience. .but with good sideboard (kataki and viashino heretic), I think this deck can make the way. .Mr. Dan's explanation himself can be found at the previous topic. .

*I hope Mr Dan wont mind if I wrote his name here and give some explanation before him. .You are my fave deck builder as well 

[Namingway]

While we're speaking of Goldmeadow Harrier and the like, what about Rathi Trapper in the B/R version? Or would you rather play removal?

[wiley]

In my opinion it would be better to run the removal.  RB has more playable removal than RW and can simply get rid of the problem creatures instead of tying up your mana in a minor combat trick that is itself sucseptible to removal.

Has anyone else been testing thoughtseize plus extirpate mainboard?  I have found so far in my testing that people rarely ever expect extirpate on game one, and it will usually either deal a great amount of damge or pull you out of the fire.

Cases in point are extirpating a tropical island against gat when they had to discard to the poppet.  extirpating wasteland against stax with a crucible on the board.  extirpating platinum angel against stax.  the grave troll and bridges from ichorid.  dark rit and cabal rit from storm decks.


Also any ideas on some top tier decks that i should test against?  Please provide a link to a list I can look at.

[rkmancer]

I've tested maindeck extirpate. .I love its performance cause of it works just like unrespondable tormod's crypt for me. .it works best against Bomberman and Ichorid in my opinion. .the problem when you targeting wasteland is you still lost one of your land which is precious. .sure 2 extirpate in maindeck is just worthed. .at least for my meta. .

Agreed. .removal for black just better. .

[Myriad Games]

I agree that removal is just generally better than a tap creature. The prison deck certainly has a lot of options now that Thorn is around. I played a Red / Green build featuring the ubiquitous Tarmogoyf this past Saturday. I didn't fare very well, in part because I didn't face any of the Shop decks that were there that day. I'm tinkering around with ideas of R/W, Mono Red, W/R, R/B, R/W/B, and pretty much every other configurations that pop into my head. Keep the ideas and feedback coming.

[Roat17]

I see a lot of people asking on TMWA thread how to play these decks.  These decks are actually quite difficult to play.  The first thing you need to do is find a list that seems optimal to you.  Then you have to learn when to use the cards in the deck against certain other decks.  Your main goal with these decks is to slow down your opponent with enough disruption (duress, thorns, removal) while developing your board in order to lock them out.  So for example, you want to Duress them, then follow closely with a Magus of the Moon (Confidant etc...) that both helps you kill your opponent and shuts them out of the game.

Thanks to Myriadgames' success (as well as others) with this deck and similar archetypes (Vromans lavamen), this archetype is generally represented at most every major tournament.  The deck does not have any matchups that are completely 1 sided except for the Oath matchup.  However if you think you'll meet Oath on your way to the top, you might wanna tweak the deck to include multiple hide/seeks and disnechant effects.  If you red tourney reports using these types of decks, most losses the player suffers are due to a play error that provided the opponent an opportunity to run away with the game.  Sometimes, other decks just have more raw power.

To conclude, this is a powerful archetype that is underrepresented because many people give up way too early.  This deck has a high learning curve and allows little room for error in both play and design.  You can't waste slots on a card that is too narrow in function.  I once saw a combo player get a game loss for not including enough SB cards, because he only needed 7 in his opinion.  Such is not the case with Man Prison archetypes.  Every card has to be able to be useful in multiple matchups.  Hence Duress, Confidant, and Lavamancer are some staples as they prove to be useful in multiple matchups. 

[Namingway]

If I can find someone to lend me 4 Thoughtseizes, this is what I'll be playing at a double tourney next weekend:

4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
2 Polluted Delta
7 Swamp

4 Dark Confidant
4 Goblin Vandal
4 Jagged Poppet
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide

1 Blood Moon
4 Duress
3 Extirpate
3 Lightning Axe
1 Lotus Petal
2 Pyroblast
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Thoughtseize

SB: 3 Cruel Edict
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 Shattering Spree
SB: 4 Yixlid Jailer

Lightning Axe has proven to be very good, especially with Confidant and Jagged Poppet, and a lot easier to cast than Terminate.

It's two no-proxy tourneys, so that's why there are no Moxen or Lotus this time.
However, getting ahold of 4 Thoughtseize can be tricky. And it seems like there's no good replacement in this version of the deck either. Do you have any idea what I could replace 4 Thoughtseize with if I don't find anyone who can lend me a playset?

Also, I think that although this deck can be good at abusing Extirpate, the best deck with that card is probably some deck with Wastelands.

[rkmancer]

The deck does not have any matchups that are completely 1 sided except for the Oath matchup.  However if you think you'll meet Oath on your way to the top, you might wanna tweak the deck to include multiple hide/seeks and disnechant effects.  If you red tourney reports using these types of decks, most losses the player suffers are due to a play error that provided the opponent an opportunity to run away with the game.  Sometimes, other decks just have more raw power.

How sad to say that my meta has a lot of oath decks playing. .and I have no idea what can I do and which list I will enter to the next vintage tournament (around NOv 07). .RW TMWA aka Man-Prison and RB TMWA with jagget poppet have their own advantage but too bad they have poor matchup against oath (RB works better because of its hand disruption). .Maybe I'll run the update of old RBW list since I love Hide/Seek so much. .Mr Cheese and Mr Wagner 's list looks worthed to be run. .

*I hope I won't meet many opponent with opening hand : Orchad + Mox + Oath + pitchable FoW just like last tourney. .

[mr cheese]

I have made updates to my list. I'm going to start testing this for the nest little while.

4 Dark Confidant
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Goldmeadow Harrier-awesome card!
2 Calciderm-yeah that's right

4 Duress
2 Pyrokinesis
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Chains of Mestophiles
3 Mana Tithe
1 Enlightnened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Skullclamp
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Sudden Death
1 Null Rod
1 Vampiric Tutor

4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
4 Plains
4 Swamp

Sideboard

1 Sudden Death
2 Pyroclasm
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Leyline of the Void
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Suppression Field

Basically, creatures are becoming harder to kill than controla nd combo, so I changed it up a little.

[rkmancer]

For fill 3 cards slot in  list. .I always think which is better. .3 mana tithe or 3 pyroblast or 3 Orim's Chant. .

[mr cheese]

I like REB/Pyroblast, but I am finding that half the time its a dead draw, and I don't like dead draws. At least I know I can play Mana Tithe versus any deck than just blue decks. Yes, GAT is running wild in the US, but not where I live in Canada. You could say that 40% of our meta is blue, maybe less now with 9sphere.

I have played with Mana Tithe in the past, it has been useful.

[wiley]

personally I would go with the chant.  It either draws out a counter or stops them from going through with their plan on their turn, or allows you to resolve your threats.

How does calciderm work for you?  I wouldn't think it would ever hit the table against a blue deck, though it certianly would be a beast once it did.

Also why run chains main deck?  It seems to be a dead draw with confidants in the deck as well.  If creatures are that big of a problem in your area why not switch it to the side  board for the sudden death?  that usually takes care of their biggest threats early enough (dryad, salvager, opposing grunts, opposing confidants, censors, etc.)

Glad to hear the harrier plan seems to be working.

And a general question to anyone.  When running extirpates main deck has anyone tried to run wastelands?  I have found that the added pressure against gat and other decks tends to make a relevant difference.  And the fact that they become mountains with the magus out hasn't been a huge problem for me.  From my last list I cut 1 extirpate and 2 thoughtseizes for 3 wastelands.

[rkmancer]

1st : many deck run basic land this day, at least 5 islands or 3 plains fetched in their 1st turn
2nd : when you wasted and lost your land, your opponent has done something terrible and then lost his/her land. .ex : thoughseize your hand, drop oath, flash, dryad, or even cruicible 

In our meta *Indonesia*  Artifact and Blue dominate the game, so maybe I would chose mana tithe as well. .
Q : when you have scrubland in play, what should you do?? Cast duress or thoughtseize or waiting for mana tithe's target??

[Myriad Games]

A quick point of advice that came to mind while reviewing these latest comments and lists. Make sure you take into account your local metagame, and keep a sharp focus on the matchups you most expect to run into while maintaining a solid internal synergy for the deck itself. Remember to include multi-purpose cards that function as both threats and answers.

 

[rkmancer]

I've just saw this : [Article] The Whole Nine Cards: Lorwyn in Vintage as a thread in this themanadrain.com. .
And in the same time I found card named Mirror Entity which used by my opponent to give me a total lost in pre-release tournament in my local. .

======================================================
Card type: Creature
Creature type: Shapeshifter
Power/Toughness:1/1
Casting cost: 2
Changeling (This card is every creature type at all times.)
X: Creatures you control become X/X and gain all creature types until end of turn.
======================================================

The reason to use this card in the fish deck (or we can call it hate deck since we are not running blue) as the article writer's thought is so reasonable for me. .as a clock. .as a lifesaver of the others. .especially for TMWA RW version aka man-prison with 13 spheres . .anyone think the same?? and how much is it in the maindeck if it's proved to be worthed??

*Thanks for jank golem to give some good explanation about lorwyn most useful card in vintage 

This's one more. .
===========================================================
Oblivion Ring
Card type: Enchantment
Casting cost: 2
When Oblivion Ring comes into play, remove another target nonland permanent from the game.
When Oblivion Ring leaves play, return the removed card to play under its owner's control.
===========================================================
as long as there's no enchantment destroyer from the opponent. .this card is better from vindicate except its landy ability. .its cost is just fit to the deck. .ancient tomb + white mana and I have answer for Oath (and Akroma) or early Dryad and Goyf. .

*I use the top 8 winner TMWA list from Tokyo for my reference. .

[Namingway]

I played TMWA at the Swedish Vintage Nationals this weekend. Here's my report. Enjoy!

My decklist, for reference:

The Mountains Win Again

4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
2 Polluted Delta
7 Swamp

4 Dark Confidant
4 Goblin Vandal
4 Jagged Poppet
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Duress
3 Extirpate
1 Lotus Petal
2 Pyroblast
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Terminate
4 Thoughtseize

SB: 3 Cruel Edict
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 Shattering Spree
SB: 4 Yixlid Jailer

[rkmancer]

I've just red your match report. .
Q : consider proxies just allowed, so you can add Ruby, Jet, and Lotus which increase your possibility to cast multiple low cc or one big cc (ex : magus of the moon) early turn. .when you play 1st, what should you do with this opening hand :
Bloodstained Mire, Mox Ruby, SSG, Thoughtseize, Duress, Pyroblast, Magus of The Moon

*mulligan is an option too 

[Namingway]

when you play 1st, what should you do with this opening hand :
Bloodstained Mire, Mox Ruby, SSG, Thoughtseize, Duress, Pyroblast, Magus of The Moon

*mulligan is an option too 

That's a really good hand! I'd play it like this:
1st turn - Fetch basic Swamp with Bloodstained Mire, play Duress, then play Mox Ruby (you play the Ruby after playing Duress because you really need Ruby to resolve, so you have three mana next turn). Now you have taken your opponent's best card, and you still have Pyroblast mana up.
2nd turn - Remove SSG for mana, play Magus of the Moon (unless your opponent had double Force of Will). If you drew a land this turn, you could play Thoughtseize first and then Magus.

[rkmancer]

Haha. .why I ask this Q? Just because twice in time I had a testing match up with my friend (to be have fun he don't tell me what deck he used), and I do similar with your thought except I cast Thoughtseize 1st. .My friend counter that with Force of Will and with so stupid I don't counter back with SSG + Pyro. .then he dropped oath and it's a game lost. .2nd case he dropped dark confidant and finally he got more bullet than me and he won the game. .Why I don't use SSG to cast pyro, just because what I have in mind is to cast Magus of the Moon early. .Hope in the real tournament an error like that won't happen. .

[Namingway]

If he Forced the Duress, I would probably use the SSG to cast Pyroblast instead (or play the Ruby before the Duress, since it's relatively unlikely that your opponent will counter a Mox anyway), since he apparently has something very important in hand that he doesn't want to lose. You give up the 2nd-turn Magus (unless you draw another mana source, which is relatively likely, considering that you have 20 of them left in your deck), but you Duress/Thoughtseize away his important bomb card. I chose to cast Duress first mainly because it can't be Misdirected, but that depends on what deck your opponent is playing. If you suspect that your opponent is playing a deck that relies on creatures (like Fish, for example), then Thoughtseize might be the way to go.

[Namingway]

People at SvenskaMagic have suggested playing Phyrexian Negator instead of Jagged Poppet. What do you think about that idea?
Personally I think Negators seem a bit slow without Rituals, but then again, Poppet costs three mana as well.

[wiley]

Personally I believ negator would be a great choice if your not going up against creatures most of the time.  Very few decks play burn so you dont really have to worry too much about that,  However, if the opponent runs creature heavy (fish, tmwa mirror, bomberman etc.) or if they run creatures that are typically bigger or same size (gat, shop aggro etc) then running him can easily become a liability.

With the poppet you have the drawback of discarding cards to him, hopefully your grip has become relatively empty by now forcing their counters and knocking off their A and B plans so the effect isnt too horrible, plus the fact that he negates any card drawing engine that doesn't explode on the opponents turn.

With Negator you get a 5/5 body that comes down at the same time the poppet 3/4 body would, but there will be far more times when the opponent will have creatures out and you are can't attack without losing your board (read all your lock and disruption pieces).

So like almost everything in this deck it depends on your meta.  Low amount of creature decks means run the faster clock (you probably need it against combo), clooged up red zone means run the ogre (he survives most run creatures and provides an excellent disruption package).

Hope that helps

[TopSecret]

Negator beats for five and his draw back is fairly hefty against creature decks.

Poppet beats for two less and his drawback is (debatably) not as bad against creature decks.
However, when he hits while you have hellbent it can end the game.
He also pitches to Pyrokenisis.

I'm leaning towards Poppet,
since he has disruption potential and he can situationally afford to go into combat against creature decks.

I think what you have to ask yourself is whether or not that two damage is super important,
but testing is probably the best way to figure it out.

[Namingway]

Just throwing an idea out there: what are people's opinions on Sinkhole in the deck? Complements Magus of the Moon nicely because it can destroy the opponent's basic lands. I haven't tested it or anything, but anyway.

[rkmancer]

Just throwing an idea out there: what are people's opinions on Sinkhole in the deck? Complements Magus of the Moon nicely because it can destroy the opponent's basic lands. I haven't tested it or anything, but anyway.

Just personal comment :
Problem 1 : Its cc is double black. .it's harder to cast
Problem 2 : Basic land (ex : island), often gives trouble on the turn it comes to play, so I think it's too late to destroy it next turn

I've tested TMWA used Sinkhole as an adoption from BR Sui (legacy deck) and found its performance was not that good because of artifact manabase such a mox. .I'd rather 1st turn Duress, 2nd/3rd turn MagMoon / Confidant instead than Sinkhole. .Yes it's awful to see basic land after you have your MagMoon resolve, but mostly case show me destroying it is not the answer. .You will need extra bullet to war and confidant reload it.