Uba Stax: The time is now

[madmanmike25]

(I saw this morning that there is a 5c Stax build in the improvement forum started by LotusHead.  I decided to post my Stax build because the 2 decks operate very differently, and feel that this thread won't take away any discussion from his.  I actually think it's a good thing that we now have multiple Workshop threads, something blue based decks have had the monopoly on...)

I think Uba Stax is a viable deck for today's Gush filled meta.  In fact my testing has proven this to me.  Here is my version of UbaStax that was created by Vroman.

Metal: 26
4 Smokestack
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tanglewire
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Uba Mask
2 Thorn of Amethyst(I view these as Spheres 5-6)
1 Trinisphere

Creatures: 4
4 Goblin Welder

Lands: 22
4 Mishras Workshop
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
4 Barbarian Ring
1 Stripmine
1 Tolarian Academy

Acceleration: 8
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

In my first attempt, I tried a 3/3 split of Thorn and Sphere, but basically Sphere>Thorn.  I stand by this even though it was nice to cast the occasional Welder for 1 red.  Aggro decks should probably go the reverse route and have 4 Thorns and 2 Spheres(or more).  The addition of 4 Spheres and 2 Thorns leads to more disruptive first turn plays.

Duplicants as a 2 of were too random for me.  At 3 copies, they clutter your hand.  Great SB cards though.  Spheres mean the Dryad has fewer +1/+1 counters.  Powder Kegs were also tested, and though not bad, I opted for this particular build.

Null Rod can go in the SB for now since everyones seems to be running fewer Moxen.


Why is this deck good against GAT?

1.  GAT runs an ultra-low mana base with a LOT of non-basics.  Wasteland is good when combined with 4 Crucibles in a deck.  Otherwise, Wasteland usually just activates Gush.
2.  GAT uses typically only 5 creatures as its win condition, all of which succumb to Smokestack and Tanglewires.
3.  Chalice of the Void.  Always start with Chalice @ 1, then set it @ 2 for domination.  Chalice @ 0 is a waste unless they are playing a Tendrils based Gush deck.
4.  Uba Mask has always been decent against Brainstorm(unless they have 0 cards in hand) but now with 4 copies of Gush around, Uba's stock just went up.  Don't forget that when Uba is combined with mana-denial that card is gone forever if they cannot cast it.  The Ubalock also exists with 2 Welders or 1 Welder and 2 Ubas.  I found that 3 copies are sufficient.
5.  Seven Spheres makes free spells not so free.



What are the benefits of playing this over 4/5c Stax?

1.  FOUR Goblin Welders.  He is still the best 1cc creature ever printed.  And this deck is always happy to see him, even in multiples.  Combined with 4 Bazaars, a turn one Welder IS a threat.  2 Welders and Uba/Smokestack in play is a beautiful thing.
2.  Four B-Rings to guarantee you win the welder war, which is inevitable.
3.  Chalice.  You actually get the best usage out of Chalice over any other deck.  Chalice @ 1 barely hurts you at all.  Chalice is a hard-lock card.
4.  Spheres hurt them more than you.  You have more cards that can be cranked out with Workshop than they do(read: more artifacts)
5.  Consistency over bombs.  When playing 5c builds, I noticed that unless you tutor for Stripmine, it is difficult to tutor AND cast a bomb.  i.e. It is rare you can DT and Tinker the same turn.
6.  Four copies of Tanglewire are great against a deck that casts the majority of its cards at sorcery speed.  Awesome with Welder recursion.
7.  MORE PERMANENTS.  You have 60.
8.  Wasteland makes it difficult to cast their colored spells.
9.  Ubazaar draw engine helps you come back if you get behind. You run 4 Bazaars, remember.

Honestly, the only card that I am envious/afraid of in 5c builds is Tinker.  That is the best card in the deck imo, it's pretty much always good.  Other than that, the main reason to run 5c is for the Tutors(Stripmine, mainly) and Balance.  This deck fears neither as it runs 4 Crucibles and usually has fewer creatures and cards in hand.

Some matchups:

GAT-Favorable

5c Stax-Slightly favorable.  And I do stress slightly.

Oath-Even.  Orchard tokens are great for you.  You pretty much scoop to Mox, Orchard, Oath on the play.  Then again, most decks do, especially when the Oath deck has counter backup.  Thankfully, Oath decks get worse the more turns go by and they haven't found and resolved Oath.

Gush-based Fish deck-Complete domination.  It wasnt even close.

Ichorid-Hmm, how lightly can I put this?  Here is the gameplan:  Dim the lights, spark up some candles, play some soft music(Kenny G, perhaps?) bend over and get ready to go to your 'special place'.  They won't even buy you dinner.  Go to game 2 and (hopefully) game 3.

If Ichorid is prevalent at your local shop then sub Orb of Dreams in for Uba Mask...or better yet, don't play Stax.  Some SB cards I am toying with are Powder Keg and Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.  They pretty much SB expecting to see Leylines come in, so you gain some edge without the enchantments.

Hopefully this has intrigued some of you to give UbaStax another look.  If ever there was a time for the return of UbaStax, I believe it is now.  I advise you to check out the 9Sphere Stax thread as well.

Thanks for reading,
Mike


EDIT:  Chalice is such a great artifact.  Set @ 2 it stops:
Merchant Scroll
Quirion Dryad
Oath of Druids
Flash
DT
Time Walk

to name a few.  Resolving 2 Chalices(Set @ 1 and 2 respectively) is a major blow against most decks in Vintage.  3 Chalices is gg unless the opponent is also playing with Workshops.  Chalice @ 2 > Sphere/Thorn as well, so don't let that stop you casting it.  Let Bazaar filter away the useless cards.

[squeegee]

I have seen a build very similar to this when I played in Washington St.  It was very good against pretty much everything but storm combo. (This was before flash so I don't know how that matchup is.)

The main difference I see in the decks, is that he ran multiple(don't remember exactly) gambles.  Generally what this did, was either give him strip lock, or find an artifact he needed with welder in play.  "Discard the Duplicant I just fetched?? Sure."

I think his deck varied between more aggro versions, with Juggs and 7/10, to more control oriented like yours.

Either way, as a bomberman player, this had to be one of my worst matchups because he could power out more than I could counter.

[shadowofrpgfreak]

Looks nasty, but I'm concerned about the lack of real win conditions. You have B-Ring recur and Welder beats... if they can knock out those before you get them locked, they just need to sit back and hope you've drawn more cards. And I realize that the only way to do this is either Extirpating both or some combination of LotV and E-Plauge, or some other mass-hoser (at which point you just lay a Smokestack and watch them lose the hate), but it still bothers me... Maybe 1 Trike or 7/10 or some other smasher main, possibly Karn seeing as you have plenty of things to animate, or maybe - I know, this sounds mad - Ring of Ma'ruf with a couple kills in board. Even a man-land like Factory... just something that doesn't rely on Welder or Crucible alone, and can be played easily through your own locks (which Workshops take care of in most cases). And to really establish a lock, Factory can double as a weld target, or even a recurring one with Crucible, though that's a win-more situation about 98% of the time.

Just my view, I don't like having to rely on one of two specific cards to win, at least without some decent instant-speed control. Though it seems people have this funny habit of scooping to a lock, so maybe there isn't a real need for a lot of ways to end a game.

[senpai]

although i get the concept off going for a solid lock and then using the barbarian rings as recursion, i think you definately are in need of more threats. a trike, as mentioned above, would really help add an extra element to the deck. i am a real fan of mishra's factories in stax builds, they just work. perhaps they could be tried here.

[master_p]

Uba stax has always been really low on win conditions. If they want to play it out and let you spend the vast majority of the match killing them then that works out really well for you, especially game 1. You spend 30+ minutes in game one and then all you have to do is wait for the match to go to time in game 2 and you win the match. Smart players scoop to locks becuase they don't want to draw the match or loose because they let you take your sweet time killing them. I remember when smennen top 8'ed gencon with Mono Blue he said in his tournement report that he always sideboarded out all his win conditions agianst 'shop decks if he won a really long game 1. Same kind of strategy here.

[Moxlotus]

Uba stax has always been really low on win conditions. If they want to play it out and let you spend the vast majority of the match killing them then that works out really well for you, especially game 1. You spend 30+ minutes in game one and then all you have to do is wait for the match to go to time in game 2 and you win the match. Smart players scoop to locks becuase they don't want to draw the match or loose because they let you take your sweet time killing them. I remember when smennen top 8'ed gencon with Mono Blue he said in his tournement report that he always sideboarded out all his win conditions agianst 'shop decks if he won a really long game 1. Same kind of strategy here.

The thing is, if you lose game 1 you're kinda screwed then.  They will make you play out game 2 because other decks will have the chance to actually get a kill game 3 while Uba stax typically can't.

[meadbert]

Have you tested Serum Powder?

I run a similar lists, but I run two Karn Silver Golems and 4 Serum Powders.

I have of the new Spheres in the board but none in the main deck.

My personal testing over the past 3 months has indicated that Ichorid and Uba Stax are the two best decks in the format.
Those two decks were WAY on top.  Each deck played 60 matches and Uba Stax and Ichorid were 42-18 and 40-20 repspectably while third place was 33-27.

Serum Powder makes a huge difference in many matchups.

Serum Powder allows you to mulligan into hate or a shop.

Being able to consistently open with turn 1 Smokey or Turn 1 Chalice@2 against Fish is huge.

Almost every matchup is favorable.  This includes Ichorid (I only test against my build)

Against my build of Ichorid Uba Stax is just about its worst matchup.  Basically you board in 2 Spheres so you have 7 Spheres inlucind Trini along with Chalice.  You then Mull to Leyline and open with Leyline and probably a Sphere.  From there Ichorid has a huge problem as they are probably forced to drop Bazaar first to start digging, but Chalice@1 locks them out and addiontal spheres + Wasteland make it very difficult to pay for Leyline removal.

Lists that run Reverent Silence have an easier time since Reverent Silence is not shut off by Chalice@1 and costs 0 rather than 1 mana.  Still, more traditional Ichorid lists only run something like 6 mana producing lands compared to the 11 that I run post board so I imagine it is still pretty easy to mana screw them.

Flash plays out similarly to Ichorid, but you probably want your Uba Mask to make it tough to get Hulk in hand.

As near as I can tell GAT is an insanely good matchup.  Steve claims this is only true if the GAT play is incompetent.  As I am testing two fisted and fairly incompetent as a GAT player I really cannot disagree on my own, but I keep hoping that Steve will write an article on how to beat Stax (Uba Stax in particular) with GAT.  Anyway, till I see that article I am going with my fairly extensive if poor play testing which shows that Uba Stax has a huge advantage in this matchup.

Since Uba has very strong Flash, GAT and Fish matchup and slightly above average Ichorid and Stax matchups then it is one of the strongest decks that can be played right now.

By the way, I think Tangle Wire is pretty bad right now.  It is certainly worse than Uba Mask now Gush is so dominant.

My exact list is:
4 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountain
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Bazaar of Baghdad

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
4 Serum Powder
1 Sol Ring

4 Smokestack
4 Uba Mask
4 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void

2 Karn, Silver Golem

4 Goblin Welder

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Jester's Cap
4 Powder Keg
2 New Sphere
1 Karn Silver Golem

[madmanmike25]

The main difference I see in the decks, is that he ran multiple(don't remember exactly) gambles. 

I experimented with Gamble a while back.  I didn't like it because it was only situationally good.  It was never consistent for me.  1-2 Gambles in a deck is not a bad idea, but I favor consistency.  And yes, I can see Bomberman having a horrible matchup against this as well.

Looks nasty, but I'm concerned about the lack of real win conditions. You have B-Ring recur and Welder beats...

Remember thats EIGHT win conditions.  Four of which add an extremely useful and (almost) neccesary ability, while the other four provide red mana.  It is enough.  Any more focus on win conditions and I would just go ahead and play Shop Aggro, which I honestly feel is inferior to this deck.
 

Uba stax has always been really low on win conditions. You spend 30+ minutes in game one and then all you have to do is wait for the match to go to time in game 2 and you win the match.

QFT, UbaStax is more about locking an opponent down than getting that oh-so-random Titan into play.  30 minutes????  Honestly your decisions aren't really time consuming when you get the hang of this deck.  If your oppenent is stalling....call him on it.  He can either cast a spell or he can't.

Have you tested Serum Powder?

Nope.  This deck is consistent enough(4-of's) to not need the Powder.  I usually have plenty of disruption in my opening 7.  Why would I want to draw into a Powder if I only have a soft-lock going??

I run a similar lists, but I run two Karn Silver Golems and 4 Serum Powders.

I like Karn.  A lot.  But he doesn't immediately lock the game down.  And that is what this deck wants to focus on.  I'm not concerned about making the aggro matchup more tolerable...I have Tanglewires for that.  I also don't want a faster clock, I want a lock.  Focus is key here, as is consistency.  Also, and this is important, Karn costs 5 mana(even more with spheres) while Thorn costs 2.  If being weldable is a counter-argument to that....then why not just play with 4 Titans and 4 Possessed Portals since they are also 'weldable'.

Almost every matchup is favorable.  This includes Ichorid (I only test against my build)

How are 2 Karns and 4 Serums going to give you a favorable matchup against Ichorid??  I assume you mean in Game 2 and 3 correct?  I can see that.  If you can beat Ichorid game one with UbaStax then you are my personal hero.  You can hold out a bit longer it seems, but I don't think you can withstand the swarm.

As near as I can tell GAT is an insanely good matchup.  Steve claims this is only true if the GAT play is incompetent.  As I am testing two fisted and fairly incompetent as a GAT player I really cannot disagree on my own, but I keep hoping that Steve will write an article on how to beat Stax (Uba Stax in particular) with GAT.  Anyway, till I see that article I am going with my fairly extensive if poor play testing which shows that Uba Stax has a huge advantage in this matchup.

I can contest that from my experience GAT is a good matchup for UbaStax.  Maybe Steve is playing against incompetent UbaStax players, eh?

Since Uba has very strong Flash, GAT and Fish matchup and slightly above average Ichorid and Stax matchups then it is one of the strongest decks that can be played right now.

I agree here, that's why I think more people should/will pick it up.  Builds can vary, but I believe mine is solid.  Also note:  I would rather have a Thorn in my hand than Karn game 1 against Flash.

By the way, I think Tangle Wire is pretty bad right now.  It is certainly worse than Uba Mask now Gush is so dominant.

I completely disagree with you on that.  Do you know what happens when they Gush their Islands/Tropicals/U-Seas back to their hand??  They have to tap their win condition, the Dryad.  If they have no Dryad in play?  Then great!  Fewer permanents for them = good for you.  Tanglewire is pretty much my 'answer-all' to a variety of decks out there.  It also gets stupid good with Welder recursion.  Tanglewire is the closest thing to Time Walk that Shop decks will get.  It is also complementary to many cards in the deck.


Your list is interesting.  UbaStax can be customized very easily.  In fact we are mainly 2 cards apart, Thorn and Tangles to your Karn and Serums.

A first turn Karn doesn't lock your opponent at all.  I would rather have something more disruptive.  That's just my preference.  Karn is still a solid creature for Shop aggro, though.

I can't totally knock Serums, but I know I would much rather have Tanglewires as a topdeck any day of the week.

Mishras Factory is another nice card.  As a 1-of, I don't really understand the inclusion though.  I have never had a problem with having an artifact in play to weld out.  I prefer the extra mountain to make it easier to cast Welders in the main, and Shattering Sprees in the SB.

It seems like you have done a fair amout of testing yourself, Meadbert.  I can't really say one list is 'better' than the other, it just comes down to preference.  I can see Karn OWNING Fish decks, but right now Tanglewire does that just fine with a cc of only 3; and I can play it in multiples.

Thank you all for your posts.
Does anyone disagree and feel Uba is a poor choice in today's meta?

Mike

[meadbert]

Mishras Factory is another nice card.  As a 1-of, I don't really understand the inclusion though.  I have never had a problem with having an artifact in play to weld out.  I prefer the extra mountain to make it easier to cast Welders in the main, and Shattering Sprees in the SB.

Factory is a 1-of because it is the 60th best card.  If I were to run a 59 card list I would probably drop Factory.  If I were to run a 62 card list I would add a Factory.

Serum Powder should not be compared to Tanglewire because one is a draw/filter or mana and the other is a lock piece.  How would we go about comparing Trinisphere to Sol Ring?

A more valid comparison is comparing Serum Powder to Mox Sapphire.

Sapphire: 
advantage:  Extra mana source on turn 1.
disadvantage:  Shut off by Chalice@0 eaten by Keg, Explosives, Karn and Gorilla Shaman.  Cannot be animated by Karn.

Serum Powder: Free, uncounterable one sided draw 7 on turn 0.  Not shut off by Chalice@0.  Cannot be easily destroyed by Gorilla Shama, Explosives and Keg.  Animates into a 3/3 creature with Karn.
disadvantage:  Costs 3 so does not provide extra mana on turn 1.

WIth Uba Stax there are several kinds of drawing.
First there are the cards you draw for your oppening hand and mulligans.
Second there are cards that are drawn with Bazaar or atleast with a Bazaar out or in hand.
Third, there are true top decks.

In an opening hand Serum Powder is broken.  I have run simulations that score opening hands and Serum Powder is almost as powerful as an off color mox but not quite as improving opening hands.

With Bazaar out Serum Powder is somewhat weak but you can always pitch it to keep other cards.

Finally, there is the third scenario which is where you top deck Serum Powder.  As a top deck Serum Powder is no worse and quite possibly better than a mox.  This is because it provides the same ability.  Although it costs more, its casting cost allows you do dodge a good deal of hate.

Along with allowing you to mulligan into turn 1 Trini and turn 1 Smokey more often, Powder also can play a role in some broken plays.  As an example consider this start:
Turn 1 Shop, mox, Powder, Resistor.
Turn 2 Land, hardcast Karn.
Turn 3. Land, munch on mox, Animate Powder, swing for 7.

Starts like these may not be broken according to the tradition sense, but they are very good and you are very likely to win against many decks.

EDIT:  Another favorite opening is:
Turn 1 Shop, Mox, Jester's Cap.
Turn 2:  Harcast Powder, activate Cap for the win.  Plays like this become very common when you consider that you can mulligan into Cap very effectively.

[jj2423]

Madmanmike25, I like your idea about using Thorn of Amethyst in addition to Sphere of Resistance. I would like to try to incorporate one or two into my build. I have issues with space. Here is my current list (take into account that in my metagame I come across a lot of rogue builds where I always feel that I am creature less: this is the reason for this creature heavy Uba version):

Lands
        4 Mountain
        2 Barbarian Ring
        4 Bazaar of Baghdad
        2 City of Traitors
        4 Mishra's Workshop
        1 Strip Mine
        3 Wasteland
        1 Tolarian Academy
Creatures
        1 Duplicant
        2 Solemn Simulacrum
        2 Karn, Silver Golem
        4 Goblin Welder
Artifacts
        3 Chalice of the Void
        4 Crucible of Worlds
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mana Vault
        3 Smokestack
        1 Sol Ring
        3 Sphere of Resistance
        4 Tangle Wire
        1 Trinisphere
        3 Uba Mask
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
Sideboard
2 Granite Shard
2 Pyroclasm
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Shattering Spree
1 Sundering Titan
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Triskelion
2 Viashino Heretic

I started out running a similar build to your own, but after I found I started to have a harder time trying to lock them down I slowly began removing some of the lock components. The first thing I went down to three of was Smokestack and replaced this with the first Karn, Silver Golem. When that didn't seem to be enough I went down to 3 Sphere of Resistance and added a second Karn, Silver Golem. I had originally devoted one main board slot to a Triskelion, but after I got beat down by some large Gush deck creatures, such as Quirion Dryad and Psychatog, along with some Oath Deck angels, I decided to replace Triskelion with Duplicant. I had always had in one Solemn Simulacrum to help act as a beater, help fix a mountain less solution for an in hand Goblin Welder, or being a to draw when needed (meaning when the Uba Mask-Bazaar of Baghdad engine isn't in operation). One of the slots I had open up to put in a second Solemn Simulacrum, was -1 Uba Mask (to go down to a 3 of card in the deck).

I would appreciate any feedback on my build and how the Thorn's may be added, if needed and what can be replaced. I also was toying with the idea of:
-1 Mountain
+1 Barbarian Ring

My SB consists of a lot of artifact hate since one old time pro tour member in my metagame likes running an affinity/Isochron Scepter deck, with re-occurring Mana Drains and Boomerangs on the Scepter. Thanks!

[madmanmike25]

Serum Powder should not be compared to Tanglewire because one is a draw/filter or mana and the other is a lock piece.  How would we go about comparing Trinisphere to Sol Ring?

I wasn't comparing so much the abilities of the cards........it's just that your list pretty much took out 4 copies of Tangles and added 4 Serums.  It's more of a card-slot comparision.  Tangles and Serums are like apples and oranges, difficult to compare yet both are still fruit.

A more valid comparison is comparing Serum Powder to Mox Sapphire.

This comparison is shaky at best.  The only real similarities are that both of these cards should improve your first turn.  One lets you power out a bigger artifact, while another may let you see a better hand.  Sapphire is an auto-include, whereas Serum is not.  I do not think these cards are interchangeable nor truly comparable even in the example you have given.  Typically, Stax decks do not need an animated 3/3 over a true mana source.

In an opening hand Serum Powder is broken.  I have run simulations that score opening hands and Serum Powder is almost as powerful as an off color mox but not quite as improving opening hands.

Broken? Really?  Lets cut to the chase here.  The most broken play a Shop deck can have is a resolved Trinisphere on the play.  Let's not get greedy and try to include other artifacts just yet.  There are also times when you cannot cast Trini due to 2 mana hands, it DOES happen.  I do not consider a turn 1 Sphere of Resistance to be broken.  It's a good start, but the game isn't decided yet.   

I would like to see your data on first turn Trini's (or whatever hands you consider "broken")if you are willing to share.  Let's not forget the times when you actually want to keep your hand......and Serum Powder is still in it.  It's almost like you already mulled to 6 in that situation.  My only experience with Serum Powder was in 1-land Belcher and I liked it there because it helped lead to turn 1-2 wins, something Stax decks have difficulty achieving.

Finally, there is the third scenario which is where you top deck Serum Powder.  As a top deck Serum Powder is no worse and quite possibly better than a mox. 

Ah, but the 2 cards are not interchangeable.  Mox Sapphire > Serum Powder in a deck that exists because it can 'cheat' the high cc of artifacts by using Mishras Workshop.  Remember that in your list Serums are in the Tanglewire slot, and do not provide any utility(when cast) towards establishing a lock.  It really is a matter of focus.

EDIT:  Another favorite opening is:
Turn 1 Shop, Mox, Jester's Cap.
Turn 2:  Harcast Powder, activate Cap for the win.  Plays like this become very common when you consider that you can mulligan into Cap very effectively.

I like this example.  The only problem is that it's post SB.  I can see Serums vastly improving the SB cards however, so it does have merit.  Maybe I'm being stubborn, but I feel that UbaStax is consistent enough and Serum Powder, while useful sometimes, just does not seem like an optimal card choice.  It's just my preference I suppose.

take into account that in my metagame I come across a lot of rogue builds where I always feel that I am creature less: this is the reason for this creature heavy Uba version

Could you give me some examples of the rogues builds you face?  That would be important in deciding what cards are superior to others for your maindeck.  If you are up aggainst a lot of aggro, then I bet you can appreciate Tanglewire recursion via Welders.  But in that case, Thorns aren't the best choice for an aggro-filled meta.  You also need to ask yourself:  What is it best to set Chalice at?  If these rogue decks are diverse enough to not be truly harmed by Chalice, then you might want to sub Thorns in.  I would never take Chalice out of a Workshop deck if your goal is to completely lockdown your opponent though.

I started out running a similar build to your own, but after I found I started to have a harder time trying to lock them down I slowly began removing some of the lock components.

That seems a bit counter-productive to me..  Let me ask you:  Would you rather have a soft-lock and more aggro?  Or a deck focused on getting the hard lock?  If you answer that it will help you focus your build.  But I think I already have your answer as you have only 3 Smokestacks and have added Karn.  You might as well cut the Smokestacks entirely, seriously.  You could add in Orb of Dreams, which I might add is great against Gush+Fastbond and takes Haste away from Angels and Ichorids.   If you do, try adding in a third Karn for more beats.

While I don't put much faith in Solemn as a beater, I understand he does add marginal/situational utility.  But, 3 Uba Masks has been plenty for me so it's ok to cut one.  I'm not sure if Solemn is as good as the 4th Sphere though.

How is that lone copy of Dupe working for you?  That card was always iffy for me.  Good when it's good, and bad when it gets RFG'ed by Uba due to the high cc as well as Spheres.  It is my belief that you should either play with 2 (possibly 3) or none of this card.

I also was toying with the idea of:
-1 Mountain
+1 Barbarian Ring

Personally, I love the B-rings and would play with 4.  They pop off Confidants, Kataki, Mages, and more importantly opposing Welders.  I chose to omit mana vault for the 4th Mountain as I wanted more red sources.  You might want to test that out yourself, with B-Ring in your case.

My SB consists of a lot of artifact hate since one old time pro tour member in my metagame likes running an affinity/Isochron Scepter deck, with re-occurring Mana Drains and Boomerangs on the Scepter. Thanks!

Hey, don't forget that Null Rod stops Isochrons and hurts combo decks.  Consider it.  You can weld the Rod back in, unlike countered artifact hate.

Good luck, hopefully some of my suggestions will help.

Mike

[emidln]

In an opening hand Serum Powder is broken.  I have run simulations that score opening hands and Serum Powder is almost as powerful as an off color mox but not quite as improving opening hands.

Broken? Really?  Lets cut to the chase here.  The most broken play a Shop deck can have is a resolved Trinisphere on the play.  Let's not get greedy and try to include other artifacts just yet.  There are also times when you cannot cast Trini due to 2 mana hands, it DOES happen.  I do not consider a turn 1 Sphere of Resistance to be broken.  It's a good start, but the game isn't decided yet.

The most broken play a Shop deck can make depends heavily on the opponent. Against Empty Gifts, the most broken opening is resolving a Jester's Cap and activating it. The same against GrimLong and PitchLong. Against GAT, Trinisphere is the best play. Against Ichorid, Leyline + Chalice @ 1, Trinisphere, or a 2sphere is pretty strong. Against Flash, Oath, and various other decks, Cap is again the best play. Against Fish or the shop mirror, resolving Crucible is huge. It really does depend on the matchup.

On a more constructive note, Ensnaring Bridge is pretty good in this deck. As for Caps being sideboard, I would main them.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I think the the theory behind Serum Powder in Uba Stax ends up being very similar to its use in Belcher (and Ichorid for that matter).  Both decks run many four-ofs and have a lot of surface redundancy that hinges around seeing one of those four-ofs in your opening hand.  In Belcher, you Powder and mulligan until you have a serviceable win condition in your opening hand, then if all goes well you unload on your opponent and win.  In Uba Stax, you Powder and mulligan until you have a first-turn, game affecting play, then if all goes well you lock out your opponent and win.

In my testing of Stax (just 5C Stax recently, but I played Uba Stax in the past), I've noticed there's a huge correlation between having Workshop in your opening hand and winning the game.  Workshop provides so much of the explosive mana that lets Stax come out of the box fighting.  It's not quite as simple as Ichorid mulling to Bazaar, obviously, but it's still worth having a card that lets you look for a hand that starts off like Workshop, Lock1, Lock2, Mana, Mana.  And if you hit a hand that looks equally saucy (Mountain, Welder, Mox, Bazaar, whatever) you can keep that and not look back.  Plus, since the deck is so redundant, removing an initial seven cards won't hurt much in most cases.

The fact that Serum Powder isn't useless as a topdeck in Stax—thanks again to the Workshop, Bazaar, Welder, and Karn it helped you find—just makes it a more viable choice.  Not to mention that it sure does make your especially crippling sideboard cards like Leyline and Cap so much easier to find.

By removing Tangle Wires for Serum Powder, you're taking out a weaker lock piece (and it is weak in a Gush infused format) to make your stronger locks more reliable and consistent.

[madmanmike25]

I think the the theory behind Serum Powder in Uba Stax ends up being very similar to its use in Belcher (and Ichorid for that matter).  Both decks run many four-ofs and have a lot of surface redundancy that hinges around seeing one of those four-ofs in your opening hand.  In Belcher, you Powder and mulligan until you have a serviceable win condition in your opening hand, then if all goes well you unload on your opponent and win.  In Uba Stax, you Powder and mulligan until you have a first-turn, game affecting play, then if all goes well you lock out your opponent and win.

Ichorid mulligans and uses Serum Powder to get one card(Bazaar) in order to win several turns later
Belcher uses Serum Powder to help achieve turn 1-2 WINS.
Stax can use Serum Powder to get more consistent/disruptive hands

Here is what I am saying.  Uba Stax is already consistent.  EVERY DECK MULLIGANS OCCASIONALLY.  This is inevitable.  Period.  Of all the decks I have played, I would say the mulligan rate of UbaStax is exceptionally low.  Since one of the strengths of the deck is it's consistency, you are taking out cards that help lock down an opponent to add a card that helps you find the other cards you use to lockdown your opponent and that just doesn't seem necessary to me.  Have you tried Tanglewires against other decks besides Gush.dec?

By removing Tangle Wires for Serum Powder, you're taking out a weaker lock piece (and it is weak in a Gush infused format) to make your stronger locks more reliable and consistent.

Tanglewire is obviously not the best card vs. Gush.  But I cannot agree that it is weak.

RE: Tanglewire

I completely disagree with you on that.  Do you know what happens when they Gush their Islands/Tropicals/U-Seas back to their hand??  They have to tap their win condition, the Dryad.  If they have no Dryad in play?  Then great!  Fewer permanents for them = good for you.  Tanglewire is pretty much my 'answer-all' to a variety of decks out there.  It also gets stupid good with Welder recursion.  Tanglewire is the closest thing to Time Walk that Shop decks will get.  It is also complementary to many cards in the deck.

I still believe what I wrote is valid.  Don't forget that Merchant Scroll is a sorcery.  And probably even more important, you don't always play against Gush.

If you think Tanglewire is weak, how awesome is casting Serum Powder going to be for you?  Yes, many cards in the deck have massive synergy, but as a stand alone card, do you expect your opponent to be disrupted when you cast Powder?

The fact that Serum Powder isn't useless as a topdeck in Stax—thanks again to the Workshop, Bazaar, Welder, and Karn it helped you find—just makes it a more viable choice. 

 
I disagree.  Cards aren't included in this deck just to be filtered away by Bazaar.  If so, I would add the previously mentioned Titans and Possessed Portal.  I also didn't add Cathodions to my deck, and that is essentially what Powder can turn into.  Sometimes you just keep your hand and don't even need to use Serum Powder.  Running into it after your opening 7 ranges from sub-optimal to horribly useless.  That is just my experience with the card.  I think the ability is ok, but I really don't like Serum Powder as a permanent. 

I do think that Serum Powder can be great in a Metalworker/Staff build since it can win faster that UbaStax.

Not to mention that it sure does make your especially crippling sideboard cards like Leyline and Cap so much easier to find.

This is in my opinion the BEST argument for using Serum Powder.  In fact, I think I will test a few Powders in my SB and see what that does for me.  I will try 3 to start with, the fact that they can come in and improve EVERY SB game interests me...

If nothing else this has forced me to reevaluate my thoughts on Serum Powder, I thank you both for that. 

[meadbert]

Here is what I am saying.  Uba Stax is already consistent.  EVERY DECK MULLIGANS OCCASIONALLY.  This is inevitable.  Period.  Of all the decks I have played, I would say the mulligan rate of UbaStax is exceptionally low.  Since one of the strengths of the deck is it's consistency, you are taking out cards that help lock down an opponent to add a card that helps you find the other cards you use to lockdown your opponent and that just doesn't seem necessary to me.  Have you tried Tanglewires against other decks besides Gush.dec?

EDIT:  Fixed quotes.

I am not sure what consistent means.  If you are not mulligan Uba Stax frequently then you are probably playing in wrong.  The fact that Uba Stax consistently gets pretty good hands is actually what allows you to mulligan more frequently.
Mulliganing to 6 with Uba Stax is not nearly as scary as going down to 6 in other control decks.

If you test Serum Powders, then with your oppening hand you should be asking yourself "Is this broken?"
Turn 1 Resistory.  Turn 3 Crucible Turn 4 Smokestack ... that is not broken.
Broken is multiple hosing lock pieces in the first few turns.  Broken is turn 1 Chalice@2 followed by turn 2 Smokey versus Oath.  Broken is turn 1 Smokey or turn 1 Trini.

Definitely Serum Powder could be a 3 of.  One in your hand is amazing.  Two in your hand basically means you just need to mulligan them away ... but atleast you still get a new hand of 7.  Anyway, I personally think 4 is better than 3 but I cannot really claim that with any sort of certainty.

Post board powder makes an incredible difference.  Against Ichorid you can mulligan into Leyline 94% of the time.  Also, you usually open with a Resistor or Trinisphere if not Wasteland.  Powder is what makes the matchup post board so insanely in your favor.

Also, consider Oath.  Oath is a terrible matchup right?  Not when you have a 80% chance of opening with Turn 1 Cap, Smokey, Chalice@2 or Trini.  Oath actually transforms into a favorable matchup post board.

This is true for most matchups.

In game 1 Serum Powder is not nearly as good.  So you have turn 1 Chalice@2.  Is that good?  It is great against some decks (Fish), but if use that opening against Stax then it sucks.  It is just much harder to know if an opening hand is good when you do not know which deck you are playing.

In tournaments you generally know what decks your opponents are playing in late rounds so Powder becomes very good.

Why is Tangle Wire bad?

The deck with the most top 8s now is GAT.  We have already covered why Tangle Wire is not so good against Gush and decks that want to play Instant speed draw spells.  Gat is happy to play Ancestral, Mystical, Vamp, Brainstorm and Opts during its upkeep till it finds a Dryad.  Then Dryad can be cast off a Gushed land and a sandbagged Mox.  About the only things Tanglewire does well are delay Yawg Will and deley Tog.  Everything else is either instance speed (Cunning Wish) or can be played off a land and a mox.

Consider Ichorid, which is another top deck.  Although Tanglewire taps creatures, that only helps if you are playing the aggro role which you will probably not be playing.  More likely you will want to get out a Leyline and lock them down.  Since nearly all used Leyline removal are instants Tangle Wire does very little.  You would much rather have Resistor, Chalice, Trini or even Uba Mask.

The third most common deck now is probably Stax.  Tangle Wire is okay here if it can tap out their Shop but they can weld it in and out to be an annoyance.  Wire is not a killer lock against Stax and can be a liablity.

Finally you have Flash as a top tier deck.  The fact that Flash can go off with Tangle Wire on the board makes it inneffective against Flash.

The last class of decks are Fish decks.  Against Fish Tangle Wire is great preboard and probably gets better post board.  This is because unlike Combo/Control decks that use Hurkles Recall and Rebuild, Fish is more likely to use Energy Flux and Tanglwire is amazing at keeping Energy Flux off the board.

The deck I posted above has some severe Fish limitations.  I used to run Words of War in the board and a second Factory in the main.  I missed both.  Words of War plays around artifact and graveyard hate nicely and tears up creature based decks.  The 3 non shop mana is much easier to get if you do play Serum Powder.  Factory also helps against Energy Flux and if you can recur him with Crucible he is amazing.

The trouble I run into is after having a pretty good preboard matchup I am not sure how to board.  Generally I was boarding out Resistors to bring in Powder Kegs.  That is great for removing creatures, but once I drop to 0 Tangle Wire and 0 Resistor, Energy Flux starts to become really scary.  I may need to go add a Words of War back in.  Perhaps I will drop to three Jester's Caps.

Anyway, I just wanted to add some comments.  I love your deck, but I suggest you test Serum Powder to determine how good it really is.

[shadowofrpgfreak]

Have to respond about your matchup listings...

First off, against GAT, oh yay they land a Dryad, oh yay it gets to a 12/12... and then it taps. Every upkeep. Fastbond can help them escape that... assuming you've only got 1 Wire. I've tested 5c Stax against a good GAT player quite a bit (until he got sick of me dropping turn 1 & 2 brokenness on him every game and just stopped playing me), and an early Wire was very helpful. What does GAT use frequently? Merchant Scroll. Which is a Sorcery. Yes, they do have lots of instant-speed draw, but some of their most powerful cards are sorcery-speed, and unless they drop that Fastbond and start to Gush before you stop one or the other from ever seeing play (Chalice @1 maybe, or just massive mana denia, will stop Fastbond), then Wire can slow down their mana and/or a slow-gro Dryad enough for you to establish a lock. This is also with 5c Stax, which can go the pressure route, but GAT has more ways of dealing with that than a hard-lock, which UbaStax is far better at getting down. Thus, with Uba, you should have an even easier time than 5c after Wire's slowing them.

Second, Ichorid. Horrid, horrid matchup pre-board. You reference Leyline... a post-board card. Pre-board, you pray for either a bad Ichorid player or numerous mulligans on their part and an awesome hand on your's. THEN you wreck them... taking out numerous cards, including Wire, to do so.

Stax, I'll agree with you on somewhat... but then, many cards against another Stax match do what you've said Wire does, possibly work or possibly cause you problems. It's basically whoever gets down pressure, a lock, or a Welder first... the B-rings solve that by taking down enemy Welders, which is often all that's needed to swing the match in your favor. And if they get out a 7/10? Then Wire may just save you from getting face-smashed. Again, Wire can actually be harmful to you against Stax, but it's got more uses than hindrances here I think. A tapped enemy Welder is far less dangerous, even if they responded by welding something around.

Flash... Wire + B-ring = Sad Flash deck. They try to go off... you shoot the Heart Sliver. Suddenly Wire delays the game by leaps and bounds, long enough to possibly get a Welder or two, and/or another Wire, and lock them down forever. Alone, Wire isn't that impressive... unless they need to Scroll for Flash after untapping. This slows them down turns, again allowing you to establish some control. Plus, even if they go "Flash on your upkeep with Wire on the stack," they still have to tap down... which will include most of their Slivers. Yes, first turn you're hosed if you don't drop something to slow/stop them on the play, but this is standard Flash strategy, go off fast as possible, preferably with counters in hand. Flash can go off around Stack as well, and even Spheres, and a whole mess of other things, because, well, it's Blackjack.

No need to talk about Fish, you've summed that up well... creature-based decks hate Wire.

If some of the things I've said don't make sense, I'll happily try to explain them better... I tend to focus only on what I'm typing and about to type, so I kinda forget what I've been talking about 2 sentences ago. Might make things sound jumpy.

EDIT: One last thing to add... Wire is amazing with Stack. You remove part of their board, then tap what's left, on every upkeep. By the time Wire's gone (probably because of Stack rather than fading) they've lost most of their board while not having mana to do anything at sorcery-speed. And you can sac the same things you've tapped, since you're the one who stacks the triggers. With 4 of both, this synergy can come up fairly often. Just one of the things I like about Wire =P

[diopter]

Have to respond about your matchup listings...

First off, against GAT, oh yay they land a Dryad, oh yay it gets to a 12/12... and then it taps. Every upkeep. Fastbond can help them escape that... assuming you've only got 1 Wire. I've tested 5c Stax against a good GAT player quite a bit (until he got sick of me dropping turn 1 & 2 brokenness on him every game and just stopped playing me), and an early Wire was very helpful. What does GAT use frequently? Merchant Scroll. Which is a Sorcery. Yes, they do have lots of instant-speed draw, but some of their most powerful cards are sorcery-speed, and unless they drop that Fastbond and start to Gush before you stop one or the other from ever seeing play (Chalice @1 maybe, or just massive mana denia, will stop Fastbond), then Wire can slow down their mana and/or a slow-gro Dryad enough for you to establish a lock. This is also with 5c Stax, which can go the pressure route, but GAT has more ways of dealing with that than a hard-lock, which UbaStax is far better at getting down. Thus, with Uba, you should have an even easier time than 5c after Wire's slowing them.

Second, Ichorid. Horrid, horrid matchup pre-board. You reference Leyline... a post-board card. Pre-board, you pray for either a bad Ichorid player or numerous mulligans on their part and an awesome hand on your's. THEN you wreck them... taking out numerous cards, including Wire, to do so.

Stax, I'll agree with you on somewhat... but then, many cards against another Stax match do what you've said Wire does, possibly work or possibly cause you problems. It's basically whoever gets down pressure, a lock, or a Welder first... the B-rings solve that by taking down enemy Welders, which is often all that's needed to swing the match in your favor. And if they get out a 7/10? Then Wire may just save you from getting face-smashed. Again, Wire can actually be harmful to you against Stax, but it's got more uses than hindrances here I think. A tapped enemy Welder is far less dangerous, even if they responded by welding something around.

Flash... Wire + B-ring = Sad Flash deck. They try to go off... you shoot the Heart Sliver. Suddenly Wire delays the game by leaps and bounds, long enough to possibly get a Welder or two, and/or another Wire, and lock them down forever. Alone, Wire isn't that impressive... unless they need to Scroll for Flash after untapping. This slows them down turns, again allowing you to establish some control. Plus, even if they go "Flash on your upkeep with Wire on the stack," they still have to tap down... which will include most of their Slivers. Yes, first turn you're hosed if you don't drop something to slow/stop them on the play, but this is standard Flash strategy, go off fast as possible, preferably with counters in hand. Flash can go off around Stack as well, and even Spheres, and a whole mess of other things, because, well, it's Blackjack.

No need to talk about Fish, you've summed that up well... creature-based decks hate Wire.

If some of the things I've said don't make sense, I'll happily try to explain them better... I tend to focus only on what I'm typing and about to type, so I kinda forget what I've been talking about 2 sentences ago. Might make things sound jumpy.

EDIT: One last thing to add... Wire is amazing with Stack. You remove part of their board, then tap what's left, on every upkeep. By the time Wire's gone (probably because of Stack rather than fading) they've lost most of their board while not having mana to do anything at sorcery-speed. And you can sac the same things you've tapped, since you're the one who stacks the triggers. With 4 of both, this synergy can come up fairly often. Just one of the things I like about Wire =P

Your points are examples of why Wire is bad. Every situation you list combines Wire with Welder or Smokestack or Barbarian Ring... what does Wire actually do by itself? Not enough.

[Moxlotus]

Plus, even if they go "Flash on your upkeep with Wire on the stack," they still have to tap down... which will include most of their Slivers

Only if they are awful.  They simply float the mana to their draw step and then cast Flash.

h... Wire + B-ring = Sad Flash deck

So you expect to have threshold, a barbarian ring in play, and the red mana to activate it by the time flash goes off?????

[shadowofrpgfreak]

Yeah, so some of those are kinda... optimistic ^_^;

But I'm just trying to explain why Wire is nice... it's all about synergy. It combines with so many cards in Stax it's amazing, allowing each to function even more effectively, such as ruining more of their board with Stack, slowing them even further with Sphere, causing cards they draw to be stalled with Uba Mask, or even just holding them off long enough to land a real lock with any number of the other cards Stax uses. It's about tempo advantage, which, considering the current creature-focused meta, and the overall game plan of UbaStax (total lockdown before they become a threat), is rather important.

I like Tangle Wire. In my experience, it's been a great card when I've seen it, though when I haven't I never really missed it. Honestly, Serum Powder just... doesn't impress me. Wire does. Maybe I'm just bad at debating (if that's what to call it), so my arguments are a little... well, bad.

[squeegee]

@Diopter, I see what you mean about Wire being bad by itself.  But none of the lock pieces in a Stax build, Uba or otherwise, are champs by themselves.  That is why you play all of them.  Do you think a deck with nothing but 4 SoR's in it would do well??  Probably not.

Also I very much agree with MoxLotus about Flash.  A competent Flash player really shouldn't have a problem with the first one or two things UbaStax plays.  With the exception of maybe 3 sphere, or if they are play Trike and can power it out turn 1.  Now, if this goes to the late game, Stax will have a better chance.  This is talking game 1 obviously.

[meadbert]

I think the new Spheres really compete with Jester's Cap for space.

Many of decks where I I used to bring in Cap I can now use the new Sphere just as effectively.  Oath of Druids is an exception.

Generally here is what I want to board out:
GAT -2 Crucible
Ichorid -4 Crucible, -4 Smokestack, -4 Uba Mask
Stax -4 Uba Mask -4 Sphere of Resistance -1 Karn Silver Golem -1 Trinisphere -1 Black Lotus
Flash -3 Crucible of Worlds -2 Smokestack -2 Goblin Welder
Fish -4 Sphere of Resistance, -4 Uba Mask (EDIT:  Used to say Serum Powder)
Long -3 Crucible of Worlds -2 Smokestack -1 Goblin Welder

Here are the number of sideboard cards needed for each matchup:
GAT 2
Ichorid 12
Stax 11
Flash 6
Fish 8
Long 6

The first addition to the board is Leyline of the Void.  This obviously comes in against Ichorid and Flash.  I believe it should also come in against Stax because shutting off their Crucible and is so powerful.  I do not think Leyline quite makes the cut against Long which is more than happy to use a mini Warrens rather than a Yawg Will fueled massive Tendrils.

This leaves 11 more board cards:
GAT 2
Ichorid 8
Stax 7
Flash 2
Fish 8
Long 6

The next card I like to bring in is Powder Keg.  It is good against Fish and GAT as creature removal.  It takes care of Warrens tokens against Long and it acts as Welder removal against Stax.  Versus Flash if you can get Keg to 1 before they win, then they must bounce or Needle it.  Incidently Keg is always valuable as Needle removal post board.  This is sort of a jack of all trades card.  I am not sure if I would bring this in against GAT or not as it competes witht he new Spheres.  I think at least 2 Kegs are needed to remove Dryads so I bring it in.  I would appreciate if someone with more experience in this matchup could comment.  Against Ichorid all 4 Kegs come in since they remove Bridge Tokens so well.  I generally want 3 against Stax, 2 against Flash, 4 and Fish and maybe 3 against Long.

This leaves 7 more board cards:
Ichorid 4
Stax 4
Flash 1
Fish 4
Long 3

I also add Karn #3 to my board.  He is so good that I almost always want to see him.  The exceptions are decks with Welders and Combo decks which can win on turn 1 and 2 consistently.  I do bring Karn in against Flash because I will be mulliganing to Leyline so a turn 1 or 2 win is very unlikely.  Against Long he is probably worth it even though he does not stop a fast combo
This leaves 6 more board cards:
Ichorid 3
Stax 4
Fish 3
Long 2

Now it is time to consider new Spheres.  These are really good against Long and Ichorid so I bring in 2 for Ichorid and 2 for Long.
This leaves 4 more board cards:
Ichorid 1
Stax 4
Fish 3

Words of War is great in all 3 of these matchups so bringing in one makes sense.

This leaves 3 more board cards:
Stax 3
Fish 2

Solemn Simulacrum is amazing against Stax and Fish.  Bring in 2.

This leaves 1 board card for Stax.
Viashino Heretic is probably the best Anti Stax card.

Final boarding strategy is:
GAT -2 Crucible of Worlds, +2 Powder Keg
Ichorid -4 Crucible, -4 Smokestack, -4 Uba Mask, +4 Leyline of the Void, +4 Powder Keg, +2 New Sphere, +1 Karn, +1 Words of War
Stax -4 Uba Mask -4 Sphere of Resistance -1 Karn Silver Golem -1 Trinisphere -1 Black Lotus, +4 Leyline of the Void, +3 Powder Keg, +1 Words of War, +2 Solemn Simulacrum, +1 Viashino Heretic
Flash -3 Crucible of Worlds -2 Smokestack -2 Goblin Welder, +4 Leyline of the Void, +2 Powder Keg, +1 Karn
Fish -4 Sphere of Resistance, -4 Uba Mask (Used to say Serum Powder), +4 Powder Keg, +1 Karn, +1 Words of Warn, +2 Solemn Simulacrum
Long -3 Crucible of Worlds -2 Smokestack -1 Goblin Welder, +2 New Sphere, +3 Powder Keg, + 1 Karn

Please let me know of any improvements.

[And11]

Even though I'm not 100% sold on your ideas, good job on the sideboard. That's damn good service for this thread!

[diopter]

Yeah, so some of those are kinda... optimistic ^_^;

But I'm just trying to explain why Wire is nice... it's all about synergy. It combines with so many cards in Stax it's amazing, allowing each to function even more effectively, such as ruining more of their board with Stack, slowing them even further with Sphere, causing cards they draw to be stalled with Uba Mask, or even just holding them off long enough to land a real lock with any number of the other cards Stax uses. It's about tempo advantage, which, considering the current creature-focused meta, and the overall game plan of UbaStax (total lockdown before they become a threat), is rather important.

I like Tangle Wire. In my experience, it's been a great card when I've seen it, though when I haven't I never really missed it. Honestly, Serum Powder just... doesn't impress me. Wire does. Maybe I'm just bad at debating (if that's what to call it), so my arguments are a little... well, bad.

There are other lock pieces that have more relevant effects by themselves that defeat any sort of synergy that Tangle Wire might have. The 9 Spheres and Chalice of the Void have immediate and persistent effects by themselves, shutting out whole classes of cards. The Wire makes your opponent tap 4 permanents, but that effect is not enough to stop Flash, and is rather ineffective against the play of Gush->land (untapped)->play.

Serum Powder is amazing. It becomes so easy to mulligan into a hand that can go Shop into Sphere on turn 1 and then Sphere on turn 2.

[madmanmike25]

I am not sure what consistent means.  If you are not mulligan Uba Stax frequently then you are probably playing in wrong.  The fact that Uba Stax consistently gets pretty good hands is actually what allows you to mulligan more frequently.

I would say that more often than not, the 7 cards I have offer relevant disruption. 
Now I'm confused, if you say that Uba consistently gets good hands.....why would you want to mulligan more frequently???  I translate more consistent hands into fewer mulligans.

Mulliganing to 6 with Uba Stax is not nearly as scary as going down to 6 in other control decks.

Agreed, and hence that is why I believe Serum Powder is not necessary.

Post board powder makes an incredible difference.  Against Ichorid you can mulligan into Leyline 94% of the time.  Also, you usually open with a Resistor or Trinisphere if not Wasteland.  Powder is what makes the matchup post board so insanely in your favor.

  94% is awesome and that's why I will test them as SB cards.

Also, consider Oath.  Oath is a terrible matchup right?  Not when you have a 80% chance of opening with Turn 1 Cap, Smokey, Chalice@2 or Trini.  Oath actually transforms into a favorable matchup post board.

I wouldn't call game 1 terrible unless they cast Oath on turn 1 or 2.  Even then I have managed to comeback by Wastelanding Orchard so I only had one creature to deal with.  Guess what card helped me out?  Tanglewire.


RE:  Why Tangles are good/bad

There are times when you will love it.....and times when you hate it.  Again though, I must bring up that after you have kept your hand, Tangle is so much better than Serum Powder to topdeck.

The deck I posted above has some severe Fish limitations.

Really?  I would think that Karn gives you plenty of creatures game 1 to beat the 2/x creatures Fish has to offer.(not Grunt of course)

Anyway, I just wanted to add some comments.  I love your deck, but I suggest you test Serum Powder to determine how good it really is.

Thanks, and keep the comments coming.  Tomorrow is shot due to football, but I PROMISE I will test Serum Powder as both a maindeck card and a SB card for UbaStax.  This is due only to your informative posts.  I will share my results post haste.

One last thing to add... Wire is amazing with Stack.

What?!?!  I'm not the only one who likes Tanglewire?  I think you did a fine job of explaining why you like Tanglewires.  I have never claimed that Tanglewire was good against Flash though.

But none of the lock pieces in a Stax build, Uba or otherwise, are champs by themselves.  That is why you play all of them.

Well put. 

Also I very much agree with MoxLotus about Flash.  A competent Flash player really shouldn't have a problem with the first one or two things UbaStax plays.

Competence has little to do with it.  A resolved Chalice @ 1 followed by Chalice @ 2?  GG Flash.  Hell, even just Chalice @ 2 is painful enough and Chalice @ 0 hurts acceleration(minor) and Summoners Pact(major).  Spheres and Tangles buy time to allow this scenario to occur.  Therefore Tanglewire, while not optimal, is not a dead card in the Flash matchup.  Rember the old Oath mantra?  "If you are Oathing, you are winning"?  It's pretty much the same for Flash, but it's "If you are Flashing then you win"....(just don't do it around the schoolyard.)  Not many decks survive a resolved Flash so it does little to argue this point.  If you ever allow your opponent to hardcast Hulk, then UbaStax is not the deck for you.

Nice SB analysis meadbert.  I will test Serum Powders.

This leaves 1 board card for Stax.
Viashino Heretic is probably the best Anti Stax card.

I'm usually torn between him and Shattering Spree which is AWESOME in mono-red.  Sometimes the instant destruction is necessary.
 

There are other lock pieces that have more relevant effects by themselves that defeat any sort of synergy that Tangle Wire might have.

Both Spheres and Tanglewires are soft-lock cards.  When using soft-lock cards you better have a damn fast clock....or a good lock.  And that means to keep the soft-locks coming(and reccurring) until you get a hard-lock.

The Wire makes your opponent tap 4 permanents,

That's a good thing.

but that effect is not enough to stop Flash,

You can't stop a resolved flash with most decks, you can only chump for so long, or delay/prevent the casting of Flash.

and is rather ineffective against the play of Gush->land (untapped)->play.

my previous statement:

Do you know what happens when they Gush their Islands/Tropicals/U-Seas back to their hand??  They have to tap their win condition, the Dryad.  If they have no Dryad in play?  Then great!  Fewer permanents for them = good for you.

Would you rather hardcast Serum Powder in that scenario?  GAT decks do not always get Fastbond.
Tanglewires not only offer a soft-lock, but act as an enabler for your other cards to make it into play like Chalice, Spheres, Smokestack, and Welders.  The psuedo 'Time Walk' effect is very helpful.

[Harlequin]

Here is why Serum Powder will only be good in decks like Ichorid:

Ichorid requires one thing - Bazaar.  It doesn't need Bazaar + anything, it just needs bazaar.  So when you fan open 7 non-bazaar cards and then RFG them you're doing yourself a huge favor on drawing the next 7 .... namely, there are now only 49 non-bazaar cards in your deck. 

Now lets break down basically any other deck:  Mana and Non-mana.  Let's say that there are two things you need to make a good, playable, keepable hand.  Some Mana and some Non-mana.  You can't in good stochastic conscience say: "Hrmm i have 6 mana and 1 non-mana, If I RFG these, I'll have a better chance of drawing mana and non-mana."  Your changing the distribution of the deck too dramatically for it to be statistically sound.

[meadbert]

So Ichorid only needs Bazaar and that is why Serum Powder is good.  The important implication here is that with Ichorid you can mulligan down to 4, 3, 2, and 1 and as long as you find Bazaar you still have a fighting chance.  Uba Stax really does not want to go down that low.  Although Uba Stax can have very broken 6 card hands and can do okay with 5 cards, if you must mulligan to 4 you probably lose.  Still, the big question is how important is Mishra's Workshop to Uba Stax?

In the past Vroman suggested to me that the proper strategy with Serum Powder is to mulligan into a hand with 3 mana.  He then used this strategy to justify using Tangle Wire over Sphere of Resistance.  Vroman believe Tangle Wire is (or atleast was) the better card and the main reason to run Resistor is to have a turn 1 play in those games where you do not start with Shop.  I actually believe that Shop makes Resistor better since you can play arond it with Shop out, while Shop can make Tangle Wire worse.  In particular you do not want Tangle Wire to ever tap your own shop.

I totallly agreed with Vromans mulligan to 3 mana strategy at the time.  Since then I have come back and done some more analysis.
What is the difference between opening with Shop versus opening with Wasteland, Mox, Mox?  I would argue that opening with Shop is FAR better.  The reason is that Shop basically serves the same purpose as the second group but leaves two additional cards in your hand.  In a world where your opponent does not play Wasteland, having Workshop in your oppening hand is equivolent to beginning the game by searching for two off color moxen and adding them to your hand.  Shop is that broken.

Several months ago I believe it was Pat Chapin who wrote an article about the Mean Deck Gifts versus Uba Stax matchup.  Basically he found that Stax won 80% or more of games where it opened with Shop or Lotus and only 10% when it opened without either of those two cards.  That is a huge disparity.  That was the day that I started to seriously test Serum Powder in Uba Stax.  If you can mulligan into a hand with Workshop or Lotus and at least 6 cards 85% of the time and win 80% of those games then you should be able to tear up Mean Deck Gifts.  Obviously this information is outdated.  Also Pat's testing was based on something like 20 games.  This is valuable for sure, but the standard deviation in such testing is over two games or over 10%.
In addition I would like to point out that Pat was testing 5 color Stax which is less reliant on Shop because it runs so many broken colored spells.  Uba Stax is more heavily reiant on Shop.

Here is a link to Pat's article:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13158.html

His conclusion was this:
A. Stax had no Workshop and lost.
B. Stax had a Workshop on the play and won.
C. Stax had a Workshop on the draw and Gifts had no Moxes, so Stax won.
D. Stax had a Workshop on the draw and Gifts had a Mox (and a card drawer), so Stax lost.

A totally seperate issue is what is the purpose of the mulligan in Uba Stax?  In most decks you use your mulligan to throw away bad hands and hope for an averagish or only slightly bad hand of six.  In Serum Powder Uba Stax and in Uba Stax in generally truly "bad" hands in the traditional sense are very rare.  When you run 26 mana sources and 4 Bazaars you are going to open with Bazaar + Mana sources or 2x Mana sources the vast majority of the time.  Although Mana Flood is something of a threat, this is mitigated by Wasteland and Strip Mine which can be used as disruption instead and by Bazaar which can filter away extra mana for lock pieces.  Uba Stax rarely needs to mulligan to fix mana flood or mana screw.  The true purpose of the mulligan in Uba Stax is to mulligan an okay hand that will still probably lose into a devestating hand.  Lets consider the following hand:
Bazaar of Baghdad
Mountain
Wasteland
Mox Sapphire
Crucible of Worlds
Uba Mask
Smokestack

Do you keep this hand?  These hands show up all the time in Uba Stax.  You can play turn 2 Crucible and get Waste recursion going by turn 3.  Also you can use Crucible + Bazaar as a draw engine till you get a land and then you can get Uba Bazaar going.  This is not a terrible hand.  It has 3 mana.  It has 3 locks and Wasteland which can be used as a lock.  It has acceleration in Mox Sapphire.  It has draw/filter in Bazaar of Baghdad.  It also has the Crucible/Waste combo, the Crucible/Smokey combo, the Crubile/Bazaar combo and the Uba/Bazaar combo.  I have been going on so long that I almost talked myself into thinking this is actually a good hand.  This is a terrible hand.  You will lose.  There is no relevant disruption till turn 3 when you can activate Wasteland.  This assumes your turn 2 Crucible resolved.  GAT won't care as by turn 3 they can Gush.  Ichorid will have already won.  Flash will have already won.  Long will have already won.  The only matchup where this hand has any prayer is the Stax mirror where Crucible is so important and Wasteland is a Strip Mine.  Even then Uba Mask can be a huge liability with out a Welder without either a Welder or Welder removal using Bazaar is dangerous.  Even against Fish you will let them get two many beaters out too soon.  This hand has "you lose" written all over it.  What is the best strategy with this hand?  Basically we can throw down the Crucible and hope that Waste lock does it.  We can also start Bazaaring in the hopes we find something.  We can also open by Wasting a land in the hopes that mana screw our opponent.  The final strategy is to mulligan this hand.
I believe that mulliganing is the best strategy in today's metagame.
How can this hand be improved?
Obviously adding Shop in for pretty much any other card makes this a keepable hand.
Swapping in Serum Powder makes this hand more mulligan friendly.
Adding Lotus allows for turn 1 Smokey, Turn 1 Uba or turn 1 Crucible Waste lock depending on what gets pulled out.
Welder means you can play turn 1 Welder Bazaar something into the yard on turn 2 to Weld in.
Adding a mox could allow  for turn 1 Crucible and turn 2 Wastelock.
Adding Trinisphere allows for turn 2 Trini and turn 3 Crucible+Waste lock.
Ignoring restircted cards the only cards that improve this hand are Shop, Serum Powder and Welder.

Lets compare adding Mox Ruby to adding Serum Powder if you pull out Smokestack.  Mox Ruby allows for turn 1 Crucible followed by turn 2 Uba Mask or Crucible Wastelock.  Soon after Uba Bazaar can start.  How above average is this hand?  I would argue that hand is about average.
If instead you substitute Ruby for Serum Powder then you mulligan this hand.  You are now more likely to open with Workshop and I believe you can expect an above average hand.  In this case Serum Powder is actually as good as if not better than Mox Ruby!

This is why Serum Powder is so broken.

Lets go back to sphere of Resistance.  Consider the same hand, only swap Bazaar for Resistor.  Now what happens?  Well we can play turn 1 Resistor which is really good against a lot of decks. The problem is that we have now locked ourself out of being able to cast Crucible, Uba and Smokey.  We must wait to top deck another mana source.

Consider any hand with Workshop.  If you do not have any of your accelerates which is rare then you can open with Shop Crucible or Shop Resistory.  If you do hit a mox or Sol Ring as usual then an opening like Shop, Mox, Powder, Resistor is devestating.
The reason is that while your opponent must now wait to draw into enough mana to play their spells, you are able to play any spell in your deck next turn.  You are sitting on 5 mana whichis enough to hardcast anything but Karn and as long as you have another mana source you can even cast Karn.  Opening with turn 1 Shop, Mox, Powder, Resistor and following up with turn Wasteland, Smokestack is devestating.  Even Uba Mask is devestating as your opponent is very likely to top deck something that cannot be played.

I believe that when mulliganing with Uba Stax you are looking for a broken hand.  This means Welder + Mox + Bazaar or Workshop.  In some cases Sol Ring or Black Lotus work fine.  Keeping average hands with Uba Stax is inviting your opponent to beat you.

[yespuhyren]

// Lands
    4  Barbarian Ring
    4  Mountain
    1  Tolarian Academy
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Wasteland

// Creatures
    4  Goblin Welder

// Spells
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    4  Crucible of Worlds
    4  Sphere of Resistance
    4  Thorn of Amethyst
    1  Trinisphere
    4  Tangle Wire
    4  Chalice of the Void
    4  Smokestack

// Sideboard
SB: 4  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4  Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 4  Jester's Cap
SB: 3  Shattering Spree

[Harlequin]

Bazaar of Baghdad
Mountain
Wasteland
Mox Sapphire
Crucible of Worlds
Uba Mask
Smokestack / Powder

I don't think this hand can really explain why Powder is good.  First of all, its a bit contrived.  You set up a hand with the following Criteria:

1) It is balanced, 3 mana, and 4 cards you run in mulitple
2) while the hand has mana, its mana you can't make very good use of
3) you have no duplicate cards

In that situation, Powder is great!  but that's not how its going to work.  My arguement is that Powder hurts you when you have an un-evenly distributed hand.  It also makes the assumption that ~most~ evenly distributed hands are keepable.  You just happen to set up an example where this was not true.

Allow me to make a subsitution:

Bazaar of Baghdad
Mountain
Wasteland
Mox Saphire
Crucible of Worlds
Crucible of Worlds
Smokestack / Powder

Now, you're faced with the decission to remove HALF of your crucibles from the game in order to basically draw 1 card.  (assuming you would mull this hand either with or without the powder).

Lets set up another hand, one with Shop in it and see what we would do:

Workshop
Workshop
Stripmine
Wasteland
Mox Jet
Chalice
Powder

Game 1 against an unknown opponent, on the play.  If you replaced that Powder with a business card (that you would have had to cut in order to play 60 cards) that hand would be keepable.  Now your really in a predicament - do you remove a large chunk of your mana base just to draw one extra card?

How about:

Workshop
Ubamask
Welder
Welder
Chalice
Smokestack
Powder

Keeping this hand is risky.  Interestingly enough you could play the powder on turn one and play either Uba or Stax ... but your really banking on hitting a redmana land drop.  Its a risk.  Also if your opponent runs wasteland or has two counters you are high and dry.  Now Powder is more debatable.  If you are truely only looking to have a workshop in your opponening hand then you can't in good stochastic conscience use powder on this hand, because the one extra card you draw will in no way make up for the loss of 1 workshop from the card pool. 

This is why powder is no good.

[meadbert]

Bazaar of Baghdad
Mountain
Wasteland
Mox Saphire
Crucible of Worlds
Crucible of Worlds
Smokestack / Powder

This hand is not keepable and thus Serum Powder makes the hand much better since you get the extra card while mulliganing.  The fact that your deck is now a 53 card deck that still has 4 Shops but only two Crucibles is fine with me.  I still expect an above average hand after the mulligan.
Lets set up another hand, one with Shop in it and see what we would do:

Workshop
Workshop
Stripmine
Wasteland
Mox Jet
Chalice
Powder

This hand depends on your opponent.  Being able to play turn 1 Chalice@2 hoses Fish.  Having Strip and Waste and being able to hardcast Powder means that almost any top deck is useful.  Note that if you do choose to drop Chalice@0 that top decking a Serum Powder would be better than top decking a Mox as you can still cast Serum Powder.
Against any deck with Wastes this hand could be really good, because you can use your first Shop to bait a wasteland.  Then you can follow up with Strip and Waste to totally mana shaft your opponent. 
The real question here is if you mulligan do you choose to use Serum Powder or not?  I would probably keep this against most opponents but I would not be happy about it.  If I were to mulligan I would probably drop to six because I have no desire to drop to 2 Shops and 1 Strip Mine. 
I would rather have Tangle Wire than Serum Powder in this hand.

Workshop
Ubamask
Welder
Welder
Chalice
Smokestack
Powder

This hand is really good against Fish.
You could just hardcast Powder turn 1 and then start dropping Chalice@2, Smokestack and Uba Mask starting on turn 2.
Against other decks, being able to play turn 1 Chalice@0 and turn 2 Smokestack is still pretty decent.  The real problem with this hand is having two Welders and no red source.  Serum Powder has nothing to do with that (unless you were replacing a mountain with Serum Powder.)  I would argue that Serum Powder is neither especially good not especially bad in this hand.  If it were Tangle Wire would that make this hand better or worse?  It would rule out Chalice@2 or Smokey on turn 2 unless you top deck mana.  If you do drop Tangle Wire that is mostly good, but you are looking at tapping out your Shop the following turn.  Really your only turn 2 play would be a Welder if you happened to top deck a Mountain.

[/quote]

[Harlequin]

The point I'm trying to make is not that these hands would be keepable with a Tangle wire.  My point is, that should you choose to mull the hand using the powder (becuase lets face it, if you don't then why the hell are you running it?), you are hurtting your distributions.  I just can't see how loosing two of any card you run multiples of is worth drawing a single card.