[Deck] Super Long

[Smmenen]

As you may know, I have a huge backlog of article topics for SCG.   I thought that talking about a deck that Meandeck has developed for SCG Chicago would be something you might be interested in reading about.   None of my teammates had the balls to play the deck on day one, but their performance (and the deck’s performance) on day two speaks volumes.   Of course, I was going to play GAT no matter what, but I encouraged my teammates to play this deck.   This is the best long variant I have seen since original Long back in 2004.
   
Here is the list that Paul Mastriano posted on our team boards shortly after another teammate, Josh Morford, who came up with the list, posted his list:

Super Long - Mastriano Build 2.5

3 Mox
1 LED
1 Blotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Petal

1 hurkyl's Recall

3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

2 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Force of Will

1 Mind's Desire
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Necro
1 Tinker
1 Jar
1 Bargain
1 Grim Tutor
1 Acall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Yawg Will

1 Warrens
1 Tendrils

1 Demonic
1 Vampiric
1 Mystical
1 I Seal

4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

5 Fetch
4 Sea
1 Volc
1 Island

Paul then played the deck to a top 8 finish, and his decklist can be found here:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=23696

The introduction of cards from Lorwyn have altered the rules of deckbuilding in some fundamental ways.

Paul wondered if Thoughtseize is going to be the straw that breaks the camel's back for Dark Ritual.  This feels a lot like the old Grim Long decks from back in the day - the damage you take from your cards feels a lot like all the damage you used to take from City of Brass, you win when you can make 6 or 7 mana after yawg will, etc.  EXCEPT now you never fear disruption because you always have Duress.  What good are cards like FOW, Stifle, Trickbind etc. against a deck that so easily removes them? 

Against this deck my FOWs are only effective when I throw down a couple Duresses myself.  This deck seems to easily get off in the first 3 turns through all sorts of disruption.  You just Top deck Brainstorm/Ponder and that's that.

This deck is significantly different from TPS lists in several respects.  First, it’s speed.   This deck is uber fast and often tries to win on turn one, something it does a lot more than you’d expect.   Secondly, you actually cut cards that were previously held sacrosanct (moxen) for Ponder, which helps you find the very best bombs that were ever printed.   

[namproduct]

Hi Steve,

Some questions about the deck:

1. What is the reason behind not including Tolarian Academy, which is the most reliable mana source to support Mind's Desire?

2. With only 1 bounce spell and no SSG/ESG, how is the matchup against Shop decks?

3. And yes, Leyline of the Void seems to be a very serious threat to this build. How will you tackle it with no bounce in the main deck?

[nineisnoone]

I'm wondering on the lack of Street Wraith.  You seem to be a big fan of the card, but it didn't make the list.  Looking at the T8 list, I'd think it may be able to slide in for the 2nd MisD, 2nd Thoughtseize, 4th Dark Ritual, and 3rd Ponder.

Sweet List.

[LSD/Cruise]

The deck looks awesome. I especially think that Ponder is the missing card Grim Long needed for stability. Ponder finds you bombs, and if you chain them it can find you your win conditions as well!

I also goldfished this bad boy on mws not too long ago, and let me say this deck is consistent. I've been pulling 1-2 turn wins with 2 disruption cards backed up.

[Harlequin]

Any thoughts about Pact of Negation? 

Force is really good, becaues you can play it before your first turn.  And with the surge of Shops right now, I can see how it would be good to include.  My thinking though, is that If you really plan on winning consistantly on turn 1 or 2 with disruption - then Pact would be stronger than Force.  I would certainly want access to 4 FOW in the deck for when I know I'm on the play.  Something like:

0 Thoughseize
3 Force of Will
3 Pact of Negation
4 Duress

With a 4th Force in the board, and possibly even a 4th Pact.  Any thoughts?

[someone_unimportan]

The main problem with replacing Force of Wills with Pact of Negations is that they are used for two different purposes (or so it looks to me). It seems that FoW is used defensively, rather than offensively, due to the large number of Spheres running around. By contrast, the Duress effects are used offensively after you have resolved a Dark Ritual, or preemptively the turn before you try to go off. Of course, one of the reasons FoW is such a great card is that it can also be used offensively, but it seems that their main purpose is to counter annoying artifacts. Pact obviously does not fill this role, so I think it would be a mistake to sub them for each other like that.

[tomjoad]

If you wanted to add Pact of Negation I think they would be better in the MisD slots (from Mastriano's top 8 list), since MisD's main use is protecting your bombs from counter-magic anyway. Pact is also only really good as combo protection, but it doesn't produce the card disadvantage, with the downside being that you never get to steal an Ancestral or Thoughtseize with it.

[Mr. Type 4]

There's a lot here so I wanted to at least address some of it:

Hi Steve,

Some questions about the deck:

1. What is the reason behind not including Tolarian Academy, which is the most reliable mana source to support Mind's Desire?

2. With only 1 bounce spell and no SSG/ESG, how is the matchup against Shop decks?

3. And yes, Leyline of the Void seems to be a very serious threat to this build. How will you tackle it with no bounce in the main deck?

1. I personally hate Toarian Academy in a deck like this.  Without the full set of Moxen and things like Mana Vault, I've found that Academy doesn't even reliably make more than 1 mana, and often leads to unnecessary mulligans.  I think I'm cutting Desire

2. Shop decks can get their form of the nuts and then they win, but I devoted a lot of sideboard to deal with shops, and the match-up isn't that bad at all.  This IS why we have hurkyl's main deck - Stax is dangerous.  I DID lose to MUD in Top 8, although I made a couple of mistakes.  I didn't expect to face much Stax on Day 2 of Chicago and I was right. 

3. Honestly I wouldn't even side Leyline against this, nor would i bother to remove it.  It actually sucks against this deck.  If you can't beat Leyline then you are too narrow in your focus.  There are lots of ways to build significant against Leyline -ie  Yawgmoth's Bargain, Draw 7's, Hurkyl's Recall etc etc

[LotusHead]

I've been goldfishing this list (great vs no opponent!), and the lack of Tolarian Academy HAS made Mind's Desire kinda dead. I'll switch it for good o' DSC/Plat. FNM tonight so I can test further.

[tomjoad]

(In goldfishing) The Desire's have been great for me so far. Especially in Mastriano's list, which has no Grim, Desire can be a great threat. I have won games strictly off being greedy and going all in on Desire. Again, this is in goldfishing. My MWS is somehow broken, so I can't even test in solo mode right now.

[squeegee]

Your MWS is messed up too?? (sorry off subject).
Mine reverted back to the unregistered version and killed the card lists except for one deck.
Maybe I will contact them.

[SyntheticAngel]

I am going to agree with Paul on the fact that Leyline does not fuck you up as bad as it seems. I was testing this deck VS. my team mate Scotty Limoges. He was playing Goblins with main deck leylines, and I beat him many times with Leyline out, and a lack of bounce for the leyline. As far as desire is concerned I think I would cut it right now because in my testing with this deck it left me with too little mana floating, and too much of a luck factor on what I flipped over. I think I would take it out for a Darksteel Colossus because he seems good in this interesting plethora of playable decks most of which have creatures, but Darksteel trumps pretty much all of them because he is so big.

Brennen

[LotusHead]

I've been goldfishing this list (great vs no opponent!), and the lack of Tolarian Academy HAS made Mind's Desire kinda dead. I'll switch it for good o' DSC/Plat. FNM tonight so I can test further.

Testing shows that I suck at playing Storm Combo, and I have never brought Yawgmoth's Will to a tourney.

Not that I didn't win, but I don't have the mindset to pilot this kind of deck. (2 win conditions as posted, 3 post DSC instead of Mind's Desire)

[ashiXIII]

More than 2 win conditions in a deck like is probably too many, because they start to clutter your hand when you want cards that are actually threats.

[rvs]

After not playing T1 for over a year, this looks like a fun and strong deck to play in the upcoming weekend for me. Thanks for sharing!

[OwenTheEnchanter]

Play more Moxen please, and im not sure how excited I am about Ponder in a storm deck.

Other than that it looks great, nice list / finish keep up the good work!

[wraith985]

More than 2 win conditions in a deck like is probably too many, because they start to clutter your hand when you want cards that are actually threats.

Only in Vintage do 'threats' and 'win conditions' mean such wildly different things   

I'm putting it together now, looks interesting!

[Everrid1234]

Play more Moxen please, and im not sure how excited I am about Ponder in a storm deck.

Other than that it looks great, nice list / finish keep up the good work!

My opinion, too. A Rebuild would be nice since it bounces hate and gives you additional storm next turn.

[ErkBek]

I'm still yet to play this deck, but I could totally see cutting Mind's Desire from it. Without Moxen and Chain of Vapor to ramp storm, getting Desire large enough to consistantly be lethal without a Draw7 seems difficult. Even if you get a Desire for 5 or 6 it seems kinda risky since the deck is a little bomb light for a storm deck (no Grim Tutors and only 1 Tendrils). It looks like you protect your threats pretty heavily with all 6 pitch counters and 6 Duress so Desire's "uncounterablility" isn't as important as it is in other long lists. Finally, there is a lot of stifles floating around. Ramping storm to have a Desire meet a Stifle sucks which is why I board it out a lot against SS-like decks.

I'm still getting used to seeing only on-color moxen in here, but does make more sense the more I think about it. Since this list is a little slower than previous builds, it plays more lands for more mana stability in opening draws, plus it helps you hit all your land drops before playing a draw7 on turn 3ish. Really on turn 1 you're looking to either cast a Duress effect or Brainstorm/Ponder.

I worry about the Shop matchup a lot with this list. From the sounds of it you Meandeckers seem to dodge shops really well while I get paired up against them all the time (my first 3 rounds day 1 and 2 of my first 3 rounds day 2). With only the 1 bounce spell, you basically plan to FoW/Duress their early locks and kill them before anything else develops. Does that really work for you guys?

Another card I'm a little unclear on is the Misdirections. From the looks of your sideboard you board them out for Pyroblasts in the Drain/Scroll matchup. Isn't that the matchup where they are good game 1? Wouldn't it make sense just to maindeck the blasts then?

Last question for you guys. What do you think of Lou's UB list? To me it looks like a solid plan to maindeck Tinker DSC in here since you've got a lot of control pieces which could definitely keep you alive long enough and protect the man until he gets the job done. If you don't splash Red you can have a rock solid manabase and you're only down 1 bomb....is wheel worth it?

[tomjoad]

To me it looks like a solid plan to maindeck Tinker DSC in here since you've got a lot of control pieces which could definitely keep you alive long enough and protect the man until he gets the job done. If you don't splash Red you can have a rock solid manabase and you're only down 1 bomb....is wheel worth it?

I've been testing this deck a lot on MWS lately and have come to two conclusions that you touch on here: The first is that Tinker/DSC is a good plan, and I've been playing it in the main. The second is that, on MWS, a draw 7 will always fill my hand with garbage. Jar, Wheel and Twister have only given me mana (except when I've stacked the deck with a tutor), but no tutors or draw spells. So, if I was to play a MWS-only tourney, I would cut Wheel for sure. IRL, I suspect that Wheel is actually an awesome bomb and Windfall doesn't do enough consistently enough to play that instead.

If you were to cut Wheel, what goes in in it's place? Grim?

[Lou]

Last question for you guys. What do you think of Lou's UB list? To me it looks like a solid plan to maindeck Tinker DSC in here since you've got a lot of control pieces which could definitely keep you alive long enough and protect the man until he gets the job done. If you don't splash Red you can have a rock solid manabase and you're only down 1 bomb....is wheel worth it?

I'm on and off on this one. Wheel is a huge bomb, and adding red also allows you to have EtW in place of DSC. In testing since the event, specifically against GAT, I have found that DSC was bounced fairly easily, where EtW would have given me a much better chance to win the game. In Chicago however, DSC was huge all day, as was my rock solid mana base.

I'm presently leaning towards red, but that sentiment will vary drastically on the meta game.

[ErkBek]

To me it looks like a solid plan to maindeck Tinker DSC in here since you've got a lot of control pieces which could definitely keep you alive long enough and protect the man until he gets the job done. If you don't splash Red you can have a rock solid manabase and you're only down 1 bomb....is wheel worth it?

I've been testing this deck a lot on MWS lately and have come to two conclusions that you touch on here: The first is that Tinker/DSC is a good plan, and I've been playing it in the main. The second is that, on MWS, a draw 7 will always fill my hand with garbage. Jar, Wheel and Twister have only given me mana (except when I've stacked the deck with a tutor), but no tutors or draw spells. So, if I was to play a MWS-only tourney, I would cut Wheel for sure. IRL, I suspect that Wheel is actually an awesome bomb and Windfall doesn't do enough consistently enough to play that instead.

Draw 7's fizzle a lot in real life too. Remember old TPS? While this deck is definitely superior to old TPS, it still plays about the same number of bombs, but 3 additional Ponders.

If you were to cut Wheel, what goes in in it's place? Grim?

I don't know, but I was thinking I'd try a Gifts or Grim Tutor here.

Last question for you guys. What do you think of Lou's UB list? To me it looks like a solid plan to maindeck Tinker DSC in here since you've got a lot of control pieces which could definitely keep you alive long enough and protect the man until he gets the job done. If you don't splash Red you can have a rock solid manabase and you're only down 1 bomb....is wheel worth it?

I'm on and off on this one. Wheel is a huge bomb, and adding red also allows you to have EtW in place of DSC. In testing since the event, specifically against GAT, I have found that DSC was bounced fairly easily, where EtW would have given me a much better chance to win the game. In Chicago however, DSC was huge all day, as was my rock solid mana base.

I'm presently leaning towards red, but that sentiment will vary drastically on the meta game.

The problem here though is Empty the Warrens take work to be a clock. Against Shops if they play a Sphere of Resistance (or Chalice @1) it'd be nice to have a fast out other than "Tutor up Hurkyl's, Bounce, and Kill them" especially since draw7's can fizzle. (obviously I know they might have Welder for your DSC too)

[tomjoad]

Last question for you guys. What do you think of Lou's UB list? To me it looks like a solid plan to maindeck Tinker DSC in here since you've got a lot of control pieces which could definitely keep you alive long enough and protect the man until he gets the job done. If you don't splash Red you can have a rock solid manabase and you're only down 1 bomb....is wheel worth it?

I'm on and off on this one. Wheel is a huge bomb, and adding red also allows you to have EtW in place of DSC. In testing since the event, specifically against GAT, I have found that DSC was bounced fairly easily, where EtW would have given me a much better chance to win the game. In Chicago however, DSC was huge all day, as was my rock solid mana base.

I'm presently leaning towards red, but that sentiment will vary drastically on the meta game.

Most of the Gush lists I've been seeing, and certainly all of the Gush lists in my gauntlet, have Echoing Truth over CoV, so Empty and DCS (in my mind) are answered just as easily as each other.

Considering my continuing failure to draw action cards off draw 7's I am now working on getting Mind's Desire and Grim into my list. This deck just feels like it needs more bombs.

[Lou]

Most of the Gush lists I've been seeing, and certainly all of the Gush lists in my gauntlet, have Echoing Truth over CoV, so Empty and DCS (in my mind) are answered just as easily as each other.

Considering my continuing failure to draw action cards off draw 7's I am now working on getting Mind's Desire and Grim into my list. This deck just feels like it needs more bombs.

I don't think Mind's Desire has a place in this deck. It can be extremely difficult to get 4UU. And as has been said already, the deck doesn't have all the bombs that a Grim Long might have, so your flips off Mind's Desire are probably going to be lacking.

I had Grim Tutor in my list, but I swapped it out for Merchant Scroll, and I have never been disappointed. It gets you just about anything in the deck, and while it may be slow, can get Mystical to get whatever it is that you do want.

[the boogie man]

though echoing truth does handle them the same, aether vial, swords to plowshares, and waterfront bouncer/random control magics are much worse against etw, which may be an important metagame factor.

[ErkBek]

though echoing truth does handle them the same, aether vial, swords to plowshares, and waterfront bouncer/random control magics are much worse against etw, which may be an important metagame factor.

I think Engineered Explosives sees more play than all of those combined.

[desolutionist]

I don't understand why this deck is better than any other TPS-like build that has been attempted recently.  Storm decks just haven't been very good against the Duress-heavy field.  Ponder might help, but I think most of the time you're just drawing a random card. 

Mastriano and the Morfords did well with it in a 16 man tournament.  And in that field there was only a single GAT deck; Super Long not winning the tournament is clear evidence that it isn't "the best long variant since original Long back in 2004".  But sure, Paul made it to top 8 day 2...  R/G Beatz won day 1?     

[hauntedechos]

I have to agree with Dilusionist here,  in the current duress effect meta, Storm Combo is just really hard to play.  Sure you always get a chance to do something, and it also has a bunch to do on die roll and all, but as Phillip said to me a little while back: "if you're going to play combo, why not just play Flash?"

Do I like this deck? absolutly, it's more entertaining to ramp up storm than to just scroll, flash FTW.  The fact that there is 6 Duress effects (I've been trying 7 and no FoW/MisD's) means it's easier to go proactive and hurt the opponent.  I do enjoy the way this deck rolls, and will continue to play it....in casual play.

Again, it's nice to see Meandeck's continuing efforts of tweaking deck archtypes.

As a last thought, what about trying to find the meeting point of Meandeck Tendrils and Long varients?  MDT didn't have draw 7s, but everycard followed a 1:1:1 rule, which gives it it's speed.  Is it possible to find a hybrid of that deck which utilizes proactive solutions to speed this deck up?  I know I'm off topic, but there were thoughts on the seeming lack of draw.

cheers
Mike

[ErkBek]

Ponder might help, but I think most of the time you're just drawing a random card.   

Not at all. Ponder is used to dig for exactly what you are looking for and if it's not in the top 3 you shuffle and cantrip. It functions a lot like Impulse, except it's only 1 mana and can hide cards from Duress.

Mastriano and the Morfords did well with it in a 16 man tournament.  And in that field there was only a single GAT deck; Super Long not winning the tournament is clear evidence that it isn't "the best long variant since original Long back in 2004".

I don't know if it's the best Long variant since original Long, I just took it as Steve just doing some promoting. Maybe that's easier to pull off than saying "The best storm deck since original Long" since that could cause some arguing that could instantly derail the thread. I hardly consider this a "Long Deck" cause it's not heavy Tutor and Threat based storm, it's a slower storm deck with a stable manabase that protects it's threats with FoW's and Duresses, the concept of TPS. The only thing this is lacking that TPS had was multiple bounce spells. Meandeck gave it a name "Super Long" so I guess that'll stick, I kinda think it should be called "The Ponder Storm" or something without Long in the name since Mike Long shouldn't have his name attached to the deck. The only reason to have the name "Long" is to have the psychological advantage so that your opponent mulls into FoW or something.

But sure, Paul made it to top 8 day 2...  R/G Beatz won day 1?     

Interesting......anyone see that deck Zoo deck with 4 Gushes and 4 Dazes? I think it ran Mana Drain on the board too. I would have been totally okay if that won, since it's an aggro deck that plays blue and good cards.

Type 1 isn't all about power, synergy and metagame considerations are more important than brute power.

I have to agree with Dilusionist here,  in the current duress effect meta, Storm Combo is just really hard to play.  Sure you always get a chance to do something, and it also has a bunch to do on die roll and all, but as Phillip said to me a little while back: "if you're going to play combo, why not just play Flash?"

Flash gets hurt by Duress/Thoughseize more than Storm Combo. Flash is faster, but has that whole Leyline problem.

Do I like this deck? absolutly, it's more entertaining to ramp up storm than to just scroll, flash FTW.  The fact that there is 6 Duress effects (I've been trying 7 and no FoW/MisD's) means it's easier to go proactive and hurt the opponent.  I do enjoy the way this deck rolls, and will continue to play it....in casual play.

You play this deck casually? Your poor opponents must hate you.

Again, this deck is actually really solid against Duress effects. Ponder is a lot like Brainstorm in the face of Duress since you can leave the card you're looking for on top of the deck.

[hauntedechos]

@ Kobefan:  You are right the same cards that affect this deck affect Flash.  And you are right that in addition to that fact, they have an issue with LLOTV as well, which this deck, and I suspect most storm based decks, can step around.  I aknowledge that the mana base is solid, in terms of being predominantly u/b with a splash R for the wheel and SB cards.  So in this respect, I see your reasoning as to why one might consider playing this deck over Flash.

Yes, I do indeed play this deck casually, and you are right, they do hate me for it. =)

The only other Storm deck that I've spent a decent amount of time playing/testing was Meandeck Tendrils, thusly I am NOT a terribly great Storm combo player.  One of the things I've realised with THIS deck, is how comfortable you can be with it.  The lines of play, once you've committed to "going off" are as skill intensive as always, but there is a refreshing "breathing room" feeling.  I think comes on the back of the Duress / Thoughtseize package, as they just seem to keep comming. 

Ive added in Burning Wish for added tutorable "answers", as well as a safety mech for the times when a Demonic Consult, has tossed my "win Conditions" out the Window.  How does the community feel about this addition vs, 2 win conditions Main?  Should I just get better with what I name for the Consult, or is this something to be considered?

Considering Ponder.  I do like the card, because it feels  like Brainstorm 5-7.  The fact that Kobefan brought up is very valid.  While Brainstorm can hide a card in your hand at an instant speed, Ponder can do pretty much the same thing for the cards you are looking at.  The thing that I feel justifies Ponders inclusion, is not just the similarity to Brainstorm, but rather the shuffle effect that Kobefan brought up.  With the fetch lands and tutors, the additional 3 shuffle effects are welcomed I feel.

Someone above had mentioned, they feel the deck is "bomb light".  Is this because the pilot is supposed to be disrupting the hand rather than baiting out counters?  or is it just belived that with the disruption package and counters, it's strong enough to make it happen?

Anyways, my two cents and again I'm NOT a terribly great storm combo player

cheers
Mike