Meadbert Manaless Ichorid Primer

[meadbert]

Also, why not Seal/Vamp over Wispermares?  A turn slower, but it gives you the options when you don't need Leyline removal, likely another Bazaar.

Chalice of the Void wiith one counter on it.

One risk of Woodfall Primus is that he messes with your Dragon matchup since they can animate him to remove your Bazaar.  Still, he does seem pretty solid.

[nineisnoone]

It might be better than titan, especially for the fact that it can't be welded out and does more against shop decks in general.  I'll try to test it some and get back to you.  I'm still hoping that that fiend has some kind of evasion :/

Fiend could be interesting.  But I agree with your early analysis about wanting to be able to deal with permanents.  Ichorid is already good at the hand.  I kinda like Sadistic Hypnotist more though since you get free discard if you have Ichorids that you are returning each turn.

Also, why not Seal/Vamp over Wispermares?  A turn slower, but it gives you the options when you don't need Leyline removal, likely another Bazaar.

Chalice of the Void wiith one counter on it.

One risk of Woodfall Primus is that he messes with your Dragon matchup since they can animate him to remove your Bazaar.  Still, he does seem pretty solid.

True about Chalice at 1.  But you can run Primus to deal with that!   

Also, Shop (the only place I'd expect Chalice at 1) doesn't seem like that bad a match-up (particularly if Primus is chosen).  And it's really only relevant when they have both Chalice and Leyline which isn't the highest of probabilities given Shops already tricky mulliganing (imo). 

It also helps in a lot more match-ups by finding anything you might need from Darkblast (Welder) to Strip Mine (Land Screw) to Chalice (Crypt) or Cabal Therapy (Because you can).  You can even put a Nacromeba on top just to mill it into play.  One of the things I really like about Chain and Charm are their utility beyond Leyline answers.  Wispermare just seems out of place.

[wiley]

True about Chalice at 1.  But you can run Primus to deal with that!   

Also, Shop (the only place I'd expect Chalice at 1) doesn't seem like that bad a match-up (particularly if Primus is chosen).  And it's really only relevant when they have both Chalice and Leyline which isn't the highest of probabilities given Shops already tricky mulliganing (imo). 

It also helps in a lot more match-ups by finding anything you might need from Darkblast (Welder) to Strip Mine (Land Screw) to Chalice (Crypt) or Cabal Therapy (Because you can).  You can even put a Nacromeba on top just to mill it into play.  One of the things I really like about Chain and Charm are their utility beyond Leyline answers.  Wispermare just seems out of place.

Oath also likes that play, as do some fish builds.  Wispmare overall has been somewhat lackluster to me, technically only really helping in the shop match up.  I have since gone back to ancient grudge, though ingot chewer is another one I might prefer.  If oath gets the chalice at one the your pretty much screwed anyway because your shut off from therapies (the only way to control your creatures).  If fish gets it then you are in trouble again for the same reason, but not nearly as much.

[Juice]

I was looking at Fatestitcher.

It can untap bazaar for U from graveyard and be sacrificed to cabal therapy (but don't generate bridge tokens )

Do you think it could be a good card for Manless Ichorid ? for Mana Ichorid ?

[meadbert]

Broken!
That is a great find.  I am not sure how best to abuse this guy, but perhaps Mana Dredge with Force of Will even.
Although he does not generate tokens he still provides fodder to flash back Cabal Therapy and Dread Return which is huge!

[nataz]

wow, that is pretty good. thats an excellent find!

btw, has anyone else been working chrome mox into your mana-ichorid lists?

[meadbert]

So it looks like Fatestitcher is going to work best in a Serum Powder version of Ichorid.
The reason is that he is only good with Bazaar in play.  He does not combo with Careful Study or Cephallid Colliseum.

Anyway, you definitely want Bazaar and that means you need Powder to find it.  Also this guy makes Careful Study just bad.  Why run 4 Careful Studies that you must draw into when you can just use this guy as a Careful Study with Flashback.

More mana will need to be run, but I do not think that Careful Study or Breakthrough will make the cut.  Maybe Breakthrough could, but again, while Breakthrough is better than this guy, it is not THAT much better so Breakthrough ends up being redundant.

There are a few implications here.

First, Eternal Witness and Black Lotus suddenly become intersting.  The reason is that you can Dread Return Witness and get Lotus (or LED) and then generate  .  This now allows you to draw 2 and discard 3 an incredible three times.  This makes Cephalid Sage look like some sort of type 2 joke card.

The other implication is that it turns Powder Ichorid into more of a turn 2 deck.  I have built Ichorid around trying to Dread Return on turn 3.  The idea was that Petrified Field was an important card and it does nothing relevant till turn 3.  Therefore I want to drag the game out till turns 3 and 4 and win with control.

Fatestitcher allows for more devestating turn 2s and this could actually open up room for the Baubles and Street Wraith.  Rather than relying on Unmask, Chalice and Leyline to beat combo, you could instead just go balls to the wall for the turn 2 win using Lotus, LED, Witnesses and Zealot as your win.

The other option is to go back to a more controlling list and runs more maindeck mana and use the extra space in the board for either more anti hate or for more hate.  Perhaps space could be found for Thoughtseize or Duress.

Finally, I am not sure how many lands should be run, but if we end up with enough lands a maindeck Crop Rotation may even make sense.

[Juice]

This now allows you to draw 2 and discard 3 an incredible three times.

Just to clarify. Rule text of unearth say : Remove it from the game at end of turn or if it would leave play

So if you want to use the ability 3 times, you need to have 3 Fatestitcher in your graveyard.

[meadbert]

Yes you would need three, but Dredging into the others after you find the first should be fairly easy.

I have done some testing and against Wasteland there is another interesting use.

You can actually return all of these guys at once with just one Permanent  source.  For instance if you have City of Brass in play you can just keep untapping it.

This makes it much easier to get off a Dread Return if your Bazaar is wasted or Needled, but it does not help keep the dredgers coming.  It may mean that running more than 2 Dread Returns make sense.  It also may mean that running creatures that are threatening on their own and without a yard makes sense.  This would make Titan good.

Also, these guys can tap fetchlands which has some synergy with Windfall Primus since you can then either destroy the tapped fetch land or the land they fetched.

[nineisnoone]

Awesome find!
I was a bit skeptical at first, but I'm liking it more and more....

The thing I like best about it is in Manaless post-board where you add more mana, as it basically accelerates you a turn if it gets unearthed.

Pre-Board, my main concern would be in being able to Dread Return it on turn 2.  If you can't really get it off reliably on turn 3, it maybe be better to not shift the deck from its turn 3 focus.  That's for Manaless though.

I think that it still could be good in a Mana Ichorid.  I mean, if you have 2 draw cards, then it still be decent.  And you'll probably need 2 (I think, don't play mana ichorid that much) anyways.  Being able to Careful Study, Dread Return, then Careful Study again is decent I think.

[Elfrago]

The list I'm goldfishing with:



// Lands
    4  Gemstone Mine
    4  City of Brass
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad

// Creatures
    2  Cephalid Sage
    4  Fatestitcher
    1  Flame-Kin Zealot
    4  Narcomoeba
    1  Angel of Despair
    4  Golgari Thug
    4  Stinkweed Imp
    4  Golgari Grave-Troll
    4  Ichorid

// Spells
    4  Bridge from Below
    3  Dread Return
    4  Cabal Therapy
    4  Chalice of the Void
    4  Serum Powder
    1  Black Lotus


Had to cut Leylines to make room for additional lands. Cephalid Sage is needed, too often i find myself unable to win on turn 2. When the deck works it can usually dredge the whole library on turn 2. But too often I miss the second turn land drop (should I cut chalices to make room for more lands?).

The sideboard will probably be something like this:

4 Chain
4 Pithing (vs Wasteland, wich now is a problem for the main deck)
3 Wispmare
4 Contagion

Probably tomorrow I'll test a few games with some friends, I'll post the results here.
The list is probably still far from optimal. Thoughts?

[Juice]

Had to cut Leylines to make room for additional lands. Cephalid Sage is needed, too often i find myself unable to win on turn 2. When the deck works it can usually dredge the whole library on turn 2. But too often I miss the second turn land drop (should I cut chalices to make room for more lands?).

I would leave cephalid. I think that if you can dr a cephalid, the deck is already working. At this moment, if the 2nd land (the blue source) is not there you could just, instead of dr a cephalid :

dr a fatestitcher and untap bazaar
or
dr a witness and find the blue source (and put all fatestitchers in play untaping the blue source and untaping bazaar for the last one)

I made some testing with a list similar to yours but without cephalid/FKZ and with 2 breakthrough and Titan.

I found that I needed to play FKZ (cause this list has an improved engine for turn 2) but that cephalid was not really needed.
Witness is good at finding the blue source and other controlling cards and I would replace Angel with it.

The real problem with manaless ichorid and fatestitchers is that you rely more on bazaar.
Pithing needle should be a solution for wasteland but how you would play it ? Play it naming wasteland and play bazaar turn 2 ?

[Elfrago]

I usually need the Sage after I had already reanimated all the stitchers, untapped, and used bazaar: often I still can't win on the spot .
I can't use Dread Return on Fatestitcher becouse Fatesticher does not have haste.

[policehq]

Gemstone Mine is a terrible land to try and abuse with Fatestitcher, to power out a Dread Return and extra Bridge from Below tokens.

[playkenny]

I would have thought that fatesticher works better in the mana builds. The above list already looses most of manaless's power in the form of less disruption, so why not go for all out speed then? (my stance may change if there a build which can use fatesticher along manaless disruption).

Using Sapphire, Petal and LED, and Witness, along with the usual careful study, breakthrough and colossum, you should be able to goldfish very very consistant turn 2's (or increase the %), since the choke point of the deck's speed is the ability to get dudes on the table for the leathal dread return - fatesticher solves that problem - purely becasue you can get a creature on the table. Untapping bazzar is gravy.

[wiley]

Just to make sure that everyone is clear on this; an unearthed fatestitcher will NEVER activate bridge from below under any circumstances.  Do not count on it producing zombie tokens for fkz.  Yes, you will probably hit some narcs on the way through your library, provided you save up 2-3 blue mana and have bazaar out.  So looking to make him into a turn 2 kill is typically going to be off a lotus or led, or you dredge perfectly and hit the right number of dread returns(1), bridges(2 or 3), narcs(2 or 3) and flame kin zealots(1) you need to eek out your 21 point life swing.  Certainly possible, but not nearly consistent enough for me.

This is what I wrote on team boards:

The problem is the mana. If you want to consistently get an advantage from this guy you have to have that mana in play on a regular basis. Mana'd builds are the only ones that do this, and the best mana builds I have found eschew the dread return plan. For example:
Badalona 30.08.2008
- 90 players

1. Josu Apraiz
playing Fowchorid

Maindeck (60):
Spells (48):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
2 Chain of Vapor
4 Force of Will
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

Lands (12):
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Cephalid Coliseum
3 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine

Sideboard (15):
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Contagion
2 Emerald Charm
3 Extirpate
1 Legacy Weapon
4 Pithing Needle

Indeed, I believe that the dread return portion of the deck is the weakest portion of Ichorid. Unfortunately for the manaless version it is still necessary most of the time. If I were to make changes to the deck it would be to increase the power and resiliency of the bridge plan, hopefully to the point that I can actually drop dread return and targets for considerably stronger cards.

After some testing I have found it even truer now.

[Razvan]

if you take out the dread return package, the fatestitcher becomes rather weak.

also in general it's rather weak. if you have multiple of those, you dredged a lot, which means you are in good shape anyway. you probably hit enough narcomoebas and will have ichorids ready to go next turn.

since unearth bypasses the bridges, this would probably be quite good in a build with no bridges AND with dread return, at which point we go back to the old one.

i really don't see (sadly ) how this makes it stronger. i don't think ichorid's problems will be solved by being slightly faster (it can't hurt... but this isn't it).

[nineisnoone]

Is Unmask really necessary?  I mean, yes, many times it wins games, but it doesn't do anything beyond the first turn usually (I don't run Witness).  And most of the black cards are important and cards you basically don't want to RFG.  Since you are always gambling on the worth of your Unmask, it can also loose you the game if you RFG a card you shouldn't have.  Leyline, Dredgers, Bridges, Therapies, Ichorids, Returns... its always painful to have to RFG one of them. 

Of course, Ichorid can't really get any faster (with it's respective Mana/Manaless variants), and there really aren't many other playable disruption alternatives.

However, something I've been trying out is Golgari Brownscale (I have an irrational love of the thing).  It only Dredges for 2, but it also gains you 2 life each time.  Brownscale thus has a similar effect as to Ancestors Chosen in that it can make it difficult to kill you.  A potential 8 life a turn (if you had 2 Bazaars and all 4 Brownscales) can get things out of reach quickly.

It's not the best Dredger in the world, but it does dredge so it has that advantage in helping opening hands, recovery from Crypts, and freeing up the black Dredgers to be RFG for Ichorids.  Even if those advantages might be small they do exist.

Has anyone else given the card a try?

[saradoc]

Hi I am Josu Apraiz, the one who played Fowchorid at Badalona. I´ve been playing without dread return for the last year and a half, and my experience has been very succesfull. As I said earlier on this post, in my opinion, in the 90% of the situations the dread return kill is a win more. Without it on the maindeck, you have a lot of free space for more disruptio, in my case FoW. Another thing that I have see playing with dread, is that people trend to force the dredging in order to win with the return. This usualy is not a problem, but if you do not find the combo pieces, you have all your deck exposed to a tormod´s cryot or similar graveyard disruption.

Speaking about new cards which could be played on ichorid decks, I am currently testing fatestitcher and it seems ok, but don´t know if he will gain some slots. Another interesting cards coul be     dregscape zombie as aresponse to extirpate. In Spain extirpate reigns in all sides, everybody who plays black has at least 3 of them on their sides. This guy can make the additional damage required after an extirpate on our bridges or ichorids. I know he only hits one time, but he has some advantages compared to ashen ghoul or nether shadow. The first one is obvious, he can reach the table in our main phase, not only in tha upkeep step. He hits for 2, ghoul for 3, and he doesn´t need to have creatures with him in graveyard. Another option could be hardcasting him from hand, in that case he can be realy good, hiting for 2, sacked for therapy, giving us tokens and then coming back for the last hit.The main disadvantage is that he disappears after the turn he comes into play from graveyard.

[wiley]

However, something I've been trying out is Golgari Brownscale (I have an irrational love of the thing).  It only Dredges for 2, but it also gains you 2 life each time.  Brownscale thus has a similar effect as to Ancestors Chosen in that it can make it difficult to kill you.  A potential 8 life a turn (if you had 2 Bazaars and all 4 Brownscales) can get things out of reach quickly.

It's not the best Dredger in the world, but it does dredge so it has that advantage in helping opening hands, recovery from Crypts, and freeing up the black Dredgers to be RFG for Ichorids.  Even if those advantages might be small they do exist.

Has anyone else given the card a try?

The brownscale can't really be compared to chosen, it gains ~10 life over multiple turns whereas chosen gains ~20-40 life immediately.  Chosen buys a lot turns against storm (brownscale might buy 1-2), against tinker->colossus (no on the scale) and against stax (where it can defend against juggs all day long, the scale does little to nothing).  Life gain is only relevant when it is in absurd amounts, chosen fits that definition to a tee.

As for unmask, it has given me the chance to win games that I would have definitely lost too many times for me to cut.

The unearth creatures are interesting, but where is the deck space for them?  You have to remove disruption for them to fit in since you can't really reduce the size of your deck engine any more than you already have.  Would this really be acceptable?  The copious amount of disruption is the dominant reason ichorid is a good deck.  Not to mention that they still get hit by crypt; which is ever prevalent in the states.

[TheOrangePet]

The brownscale can't really be compared to chosen, it gains ~10 life over multiple turns whereas chosen gains ~20-40 life immediately.  Chosen buys a lot turns against storm (brownscale might buy 1-2), against tinker->colossus (no on the scale) and against stax (where it can defend against juggs all day long, the scale does little to nothing).  Life gain is only relevant when it is in absurd amounts, chosen fits that definition to a tee.

As for unmask, it has given me the chance to win games that I would have definitely lost too many times for me to cut.

The unearth creatures are interesting, but where is the deck space for them?  You have to remove disruption for them to fit in since you can't really reduce the size of your deck engine any more than you already have.  Would this really be acceptable?  The copious amount of disruption is the dominant reason ichorid is a good deck.  Not to mention that they still get hit by crypt; which is ever prevalent in the states.

Any additional playtesting of the WaStrip package as a Petrified Field replacement? I've been running it and it feels very good to be honest.

Also, if you have a SB'ing gameplan you could share it would certainly help. Thanks.

[Duncan]

With TPS and Nauseam decks running al over the place, has the win-now effect of FKZ an advantage over win next turn? I know we play Chalice and hand disruption, but they can do some absurd topdecking and we don't always have disruption in our opening hand.

[wiley]

With TPS and Nauseam decks running al over the place, has the win-now effect of FKZ an advantage over win next turn? I know we play Chalice and hand disruption, but they can do some absurd topdecking and we don't always have disruption in our opening hand.

If the win now effect matters in any match up it is only the painter and tez matches, for tendrils decks the best overall card in my experience has been ancestor's chosen.  Even an Ad Nauseam storm deck has trouble getting an extra 20 storm count (though it can win before you get dread return online, making the choice less relevant).  The build I run has a slower dread return plan (turn 4 instead of turn 3) so I wouldn't run it.

However, if you use a build that is designed to use dread return on turn 2-3 then it is a viable choice, as is sadistic hypnotist.  Providing a faster clock can often mean the same thing as providing more disruption, I have simply found that more disruption has performed better for me.

Any additional playtesting of the WaStrip package as a Petrified Field replacement? I've been running it and it feels very good to be honest.

Also, if you have a SB'ing gameplan you could share it would certainly help. Thanks.

The waste and strip package has performed better for me and others than the fields.  However, I believe it should be a meta call.  If your meta has 50% or more decks running wastes then you need the fields (that or run the mana'd version).

As for sideboarding, I typically do it as a best guess.  There will always be some card that isn't as good in games 2-3.  The only rule I never break is to side out dredgers, sine with my list I am already at what I consider the minimum.  Chalice is also a last cut card because of the protection it provides against crypt.  Even if it is a long shot I would rather have the chance to mise it than not.  I don't think I have ever had a game where I pull in all 15 sideboard cards, most of the time it is closer to 8-10.

[meadbert]

Like Wiley, I have been finding that Wastes are better than Fields on average.

I also agree that the three best Dread Return targets right now are Titan, Chosen and Hypnotist.

Titan is best against Tez decks (which are already a favorable matchup)
Chosen is best against Long and Aggro.
Hypnotist is best against Combo.

The standard way that I would board would be to do something like this:
-4 Leyline
-4 Waste
-1 Dread Return
-2 Dread Return targets
-1 Thug/Imp

+4 Gemstone Mine
+4 Chain of Vapor
+4 Emerald Charm

If you have Darkblast in the board then it is okay to bring in Darkblasts for other Dredgers.


If you really want to destroy combo then run this list:

Aresenal Fatestitcher Dredge:

4 City Of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Leyline Of The Void
4 Bridge From Below
3 Sadistic Hypnotist
4 Ichorid
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Fatestitcher
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

sideboard
1 Gemstone Mine
4 Unmask
2 Darkblast
4 Chain Of Vapor
4 Emerald Charm

Basically you have a 75-80% chance of emptying your opponent's hand on turn 2 thanks to Fatestitcher acting a better version of Careful Study that also Flashes back.
Unmask is badly needed post board.
You need 3x Dread Return and Dread Return targets to ensure you have them on turn 2.
Do not forget that if on turn 2 you have 2 Fatestitchers in the yard you can return 1 and untap City and then return a second and untap Bazaar.  In this manner Fatestitcher functions as both a Flashback Careful Study and an Ichorid at the same time.

You win the mirror in game 1 because you have more mana to hardcast creatures and you have more creatures to hardcast.

The weakness is that you are overly reliant on Bazaar thus against any deck that packs Wastelands you will have a much weaker matchup.

[nineisnoone]

I think it was briefly mentioned, but I've been testing out main deck Tormod's Crypt in my Ichorid deck.  It gives you a huge advantage in the mirror, it stops Crypt recursion, is playable for free, and stops all Yawg-Will storm routes which is typically the way in which Long decks can beat you.  Rarely ever has the Chalice @ 0 and Tormod's Crypt dis-synergy ever been relevant.

Crypt also makes me feel better about cutting Dark Blast from the main deck as Crypt will often get you the turn against Welder (recurring Crypt or Slaving you) that you need.

While it doesn't help much post-board, it feels like the strongest piece of disruption you can run for the main board (besides you got to pull something out of the deck for your sideboard cards).  Ichorid, Yawg-Will, and recurring Crypts are all very strong main deck strategies that can cause a game 1 loss. 

Another card I want to mention is Realm Razer.  While it does remove your own Bazaar, being able to remove all lands from play seems like the strongest finishing effect you can find.  Especially when you are running Chalice to cut off their moxen.  It is small, but I rarely find that to be an issue since you can always Return a Troll if you need a body on the board.  It also really works well with Petrified Fields, but it ended up feeling win-more. 

I'm also curious on why the Cities of Brass are in the main deck.  The last 3 sideboard cards outside of Charm/Chain/Caverns usually feel to be situational anyways.  So I just went with a Waste/Strip package.


My list...

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
1 City of Brass
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Unmask
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Cabal Therapy

2 Dread Return
2 Realm Razer

sideboard:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Emerald Charm
3 City of Brass

[LordHomerCat]

Why not just run Sundering Titan over Realm Razor?  He doesn't hit your land, he kills basically all their lands (and if they have more than he can kill, you're doing it wrong), and if he dies, rather than give back their lands, he blows up more of them.  Plus, he's bigger. 

Also, Leyline does everything you want Tormod's Crypt to do and better.  Why run both, when Leyline is already your worst hate card?

[nineisnoone]

Leyline does it better, yes. Though Tormod does have a slight advantage in being playable if you get it in your first Bazaar activation.  But basically, if I could run 8x Leyline I probably would.  Since, I can't Tormod's Crypt seemed like a good fit.  It doesn't do anything against hate, but neither would Leyline and the idea is that it's a mainboard only card that hits most things I care about in Game 1. 

As far as Game 2 and opposing Leylines, Crypt is just going to be cut for answer cards anyways.  And besides, the card that I removed it for was 3 City of Brass and 1 Darkblast.  So the cards that I cut for it (or the ones I consider being cut for it), were not going to answer opposing Leylines anyways.

If I would address this issue (fewer anti-anti-Ichorid cards post board), I would probably change Waste/Strip... which seem kind of excessive with Razer anyways, which I am actually considering changing... though not sure what to. 

I'm thinking either 3x Petrified Forest to grab Bazaar or mana post board (can be excellent with Razer) or Ingot Chewer-Vampiric Tutor-Imperial Seal... the tutors pitch to Unmask and search for whatever post-board... Ingot Chewer is a fine post-board addition and can be good Dread Return target when there are pesky artifacts like Angel, Grindstone, Time Vault, or Chalice @ 1...  or maybe 2x Field + Chewer...

I've had Titan miss a few lands at times.  I actually try to keep a Dread Return target post-board, so that is a factor in it.  If you are fighting through hate and having to find your answers, they can actually get a few more lands.  Plus sometimes you just get crap draws and they just get out 3-4 lands.  Also it hits Fetchlands, Workshops, Tolarian Academy, Orchards, and Bazaars.

It's less that Titan doesn't do the job on average and more Razer or Troll do most of what I want better.  When I want to destroy lands, Razer is better than Titan because it's a guarantee to hit everything.  When I just need a body, Troll is often bigger than Titan.  The big drawback is that Razer can be bounced and all the land return (which I wouldn't mind if they came back untapped, but oh well).  But honestly, if I run creature hate I usually sideboard it out against Ichorid which usually leaves the 1 or 2 bounce spell main deck. 

[Lou]

I don't know about Realm Razor. It only has a 3 ass, has no type of evasion and only beats for 4. What turn are you Returning this guy and how many turns after are you winning? I agree with Jimmy and think Sundering Titan would be better in the capacity of hitting lands and finishing the game.

[meadbert]

Razor looks good to me!
Size is not relevant, since I usually win the turn after I Dread Return regardless of the size of my target.  Having a big guy is mostly nice for dodging Echoing Truth on the tokens.

Removing all lands from the game is better than Titan's effect since Titan's effect is dodged by Academy, Fetches, Shop and Rainbow Lands.

This is all speculation since I have never tested Razor, but I know that Titan used to give me fits with folks keeping a fetchland open to limit Titan to destroying 1 or 2 lands.

[LordHomerCat]

Razor looks good to me!
Size is not relevant, since I usually win the turn after I Dread Return regardless of the size of my target.  Having a big guy is mostly nice for dodging Echoing Truth on the tokens.

Removing all lands from the game is better than Titan's effect since Titan's effect is dodged by Academy, Fetches, Shop and Rainbow Lands.

This is all speculation since I have never tested Razor, but I know that Titan used to give me fits with folks keeping a fetchland open to limit Titan to destroying 1 or 2 lands.

So if you were just gonna win the following turn, why not get Flamekin and win that turn?  Given the choice between blowing up a few lands or killing your opponent, I would think killing the opponent would be preferable.