Meadbert Manaless Ichorid Primer

[meadbert]

Razor looks good to me!
Size is not relevant, since I usually win the turn after I Dread Return regardless of the size of my target.  Having a big guy is mostly nice for dodging Echoing Truth on the tokens.

Removing all lands from the game is better than Titan's effect since Titan's effect is dodged by Academy, Fetches, Shop and Rainbow Lands.

This is all speculation since I have never tested Razor, but I know that Titan used to give me fits with folks keeping a fetchland open to limit Titan to destroying 1 or 2 lands.

So if you were just gonna win the following turn, why not get Flamekin and win that turn?  Given the choice between blowing up a few lands or killing your opponent, I would think killing the opponent would be preferable.

So it all comes down to when you are hoping to Dread Return.  If you are going for a turn 2 Dread Return then you are much less likely to be able to win the following turn or win that turn with Zealot.  In that case Titan and Razor are also worse since on turn 2 the most you are doing is removing 1 or 2 lands.  For turn 2 Dread Returns I strongly prefer Sadistic Hypnotist, because your opponent's threats are most likely to still be in their hand, thus forcing them to discard 6 cards is just huge.

If you are going for Dread Return on turn 3 then you probably have enough Bridge tokens to just win with Flame-Kin Zealot so Zealot becomes best.  Titan and Razor also are better since you are removing more lands.  Hypnotist is worse here because threats are likely to have hit play, or there will be enough mana sources in play that Vamp/Mystical for Yawg is a huge threat.

The real sweet spot for Titan or Zealot as I see it if you are looking at Dread Returning on turn 2 about half the time.  In this case Titan and Razor are pretty solid in either spot, while Zealot is rotten if you have a turn 2 Dread Return but not nearly enough creatures to win and Hypnotist is rotten if you are staring down and DSC or Oath of Druids or your opponent has Vamp/Mysticaled for Yawg with enough mana on the board.

Right now, if I were to play Dredge I would probably run Fatestitchers and go the Hypnotist route and just hope that dumping your opponent's hand on turn 2 is good enough.  Do unto others before they do unto you is still the name of the game in type 1, and one or two turns is not a lot of time for folks.

[nineisnoone]

Also running Zealot requires more main deck slots and is much worse post-board.  I really only like Zealot as a rogue deck where I am expecting anti-Ichorid cards at a minimum. Running it main means you pretty much have a useless Dread Return target post board because you need the space for mana/answers and it can be difficult to get the kill threshold when dealing with hate.  I actually like Dread Return post board because its the most efficient spells for the cost, but unless if Zealot wins that turn I find it a bit lack-luster.  Titan/Razer on the other hand are much more self-sufficient.

And as far as speed in killing goes, Razer isn't really all that much slower than Titan would be.  The reason why Zealot is the fast option isn't because of it's size (obviously) it's because it gives global haste.  The biggest temporal barrier to winning for Ichorid is summoning sickness.  It's not really uncommon to have a board post-Dread Return on a Titan (or Troll or whatever) that can deal 20 damage.  Unfortunately due to summoning sickness, you still have to pass the turn. So even though in terms of the single creature, Titan can win in 3 turns which is 2 turns faster than the 5 turns Razer would take, in reality Razer is not all that much slower.  While Titan can clock a deck faster on it's own, the difference between Titan + Zombies + Ichorid and Razer + Zombies + Ichorid is often irrelevant in terms of damage. 

Your board post-Dread Return needs to inflict (assuming 20 life) 20-22 damage for the difference to be relevant.  If Titan would deal 23 damage to be fatal, Razer would also be fatal.  If Titan would do 19 damage, they would both still need to take another turn to win the game.  For Razer to need a 3rd attack step, your board would need to do an astoundingly bad 9 damage. 1 Zombie token and 1 recurring Ichorid is enough to win in two attacks with Razer.  That's a pretty narrow window for Titan's clock superiority. 

[TheOrangePet]

While Titan can clock a deck faster on it's own, the difference between Titan + Zombies + Ichorid and Razer + Zombies + Ichorid is often irrelevant in terms of damage. 

True.

I like the fact that it grabs basics/cheater lands.

And its so much more fun to say. Reallllllllllllm Raaaaaaaaazer!

[PltnmNgl]

I've been out of vintage for a good while and I'm about to revamp my deck. I've got a couple questions:

1) Have any changes been made since the end of Lorwyn?

2) How do you guys feel about the deck that top 8 at World's?

[BruiZar]

I'm not so sure which route to take. Titan gets to keep your opponents duals and basics to a minimum by sacking him on therapy on the way out. Realm Razer's effect is more game breaking especially with a chalice out, but if he's dealt with you've got a problem. Fortunately the lands come back tapped which can matter if for example your opponent topdecks a land/plowshares, this way you'll still win even though he's dealt with. I can imagine the power this card has against fetch or shops, but realistically, the game should be locked with spheres if you play against shops. Have you tested realm razer and to what extend did it seem more satisfying than titan?

[wiley]

Jay Carter, a local Virgina player, has had some success running Realm Razor in his ichorid list (I believe he plays mana ichorid), I would like to here his thoughts if he happens to look in on this thread.  In a deck that can dread return turn 2, Realm Razor and Sadistic Hypnotist are probably the best you can get.  In a manaless version that tries to dread return turn 3 at the earliest most of the time your best creatures are Sundering Titan, Ancestor's Chosen, Angel of Dispair and Woodfall Primus.  In a mana'd version trying to get the same turn 3 dread return is looking at Flame-kin Zealot, Ancestor's Chosen and maybe Angel/Primus.  This is because the mana'd version will see the required mix of bridges and free creatures on turn 3 far more often than manaless because it sees more cards by that turn.

A thought that I had recently, and so have no testing with, would be to run mana'd ichorid with Sharuum the Hegemon and Possessed Portal to combat the oops I win factor of tez decks and still put a hamper on TPS by possibly making an infinite horde, reducing the clock to next turn.  I am unsure how I would design this, and think it would probably go into a new thread dedicated to mana'd ichorid (something that is currently missing here anyway).  Until I get some time to test this (Saturday at the earliest) does anyone have an idea how this would work out or any pros/cons to running it?

[BruiZar]

Sharuum + Portal is cool because you can replace your draw with dredge thus Portal will not effect you, only the opponent.
Portal would negate the draw step, ponder, brainstorm, recall, thirst for knowledge and accumulated knowledge. But it wouldn't do anything against Gifts, Demonic, Seal, Vampiric, Strategic Planning, Merchant Scroll, Mystical Tutor, Fact or Fiction and Confidant so there's alot of cards left that can tutor up an answer or win condition. Also, it needs 2 cards in the graveyard to work. Ancestor's Chosen should already answer TPS but I can see it's use against decks like Oath.

What about playing with Pithing Needle? You could play a first turn Needle naming Delta, Strand or Wasteland in the first match. Pithing Needle would be strong with Unmask.
In the second match you can call Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus. Should you mill one in the grave you can use Sharuum to put it into play naming either Time Vault or Voltaic Key.

I'm not sure if this is the direction this deck needs to move to, but it's definately worth exploring.

(sidenote: I've been brainstorming about a build that uses Grinding Station and Sword of the Meek to help dredge out the deck and potentially mill your opponent. Sharuum could help bring Station into play. Fatestitcher would have an important role as well. I'm not really sure how this should work but I believe there's is a potential to mill your opponent on the spot. Its a shame that Sword of the Meek only affects 1/1's, so only Moebas and Fatestitchers would trigger it.) Myr Servitor is the only other 1/1 creature I know that returns itself to play and can get sacked on grinding station but you need to have 1 in play already. Right now this isn't yet viable but maybe they'll print some enablers in the future

Edit: Sword of the Meek would work better with River Kelpie I think, giving you free dredges when you flip Moeba or put Fatestitcher into play.

[nataz]

  In a deck that can dread return turn 2, Realm Razor and Sadistic Hypnotist are probably the best you can get.  In a manaless version that tries to dread return turn 3 at the earliest most of the time your best creatures are Sundering Titan, Ancestor's Chosen, Angel of Dispair and Woodfall Primus.  In a mana'd version trying to get the same turn 3 dread return is looking at Flame-kin Zealot, Ancestor's Chosen and maybe Angel/Primus.  This is because the mana'd version will see the required mix of bridges and free creatures on turn 3 far more often than manaless because it sees more cards by that turn.

Oh man, if you are runing mana and are looking for a t2 dread target I'd go with e-witness in a heartbeat. Fatesticher + fast mana allows t1 shinanagins like Bazaar FS into gy, lay sapphire, unearth fatesticher, bazaar AGAIN, etc. Same goes for t2 Bazaar activations which will be far more common. More bazaar activations + unearthed fatestichers gets you dreadreturns on t2 more often then any other dredge version. In a deck like this I think you have to to witness as your return target.

Witness -> LED/lotus -> more fatestichers is redic netting you more draws/discards plus more return fodder. a second option can be witness -> stripmine, bazaar, or cephalid collisum. If you are worried about DSC you can run a maze of ith (seems bad), or karakus against oath (seems better). Hmmm, you could also bring something like dark depths into play...I wonder if there is an infinate mana combo we can exploit. Oh, and if you are running it (seems unlikely considering you ar running fatestichers and therefore need a concentration of blue) you can bring back a second creature like dryad arbor or mishras factory.

Really though, witness -> lotus/LED -> fatestichers -> win = the main reason why in mana ichorid witness should be the goto gal.

[BruiZar]

nataz: I've tested LED as well. Occasionally, you get a turn 1 LED + Bazaar. Cracking for UUU, then dredging into fatestitchers gives you the potential to kill T1. Fatestitchers are completely awesome because they help get you a dredge more quickly when you only flipped one narco or returned one ichorid and you don't have any bridges. I've been playing against workshop aggro using Titan and I can tell you that sphere's really knock the wind out of your clock. Luckily, there was only 1 sphere so I could still dread return.
Needless to say, my Titan did nothing and I wish I had a Realm Razer (which is insane with Chalice). Titan is mostly irrelevant because it doesn't grab all the basics, nor fetch, nor academy, nor workshop, nor mirror match's bazaars. Realm Razer just grabs everything.

I don't have a lotus, and LED is a better card in this deck. I wonder if Eternal Witness is still the better choice if you're only running 1 LED. Over all, I stil  think Flame-Kin Zealot is better in game 1 then. After testing with Hypnotist, I think he's just not fast enough. It's a risk to run him then pass the turn only for your opponent to grab demonic and tutor for bounce or crypt.

The reason why I like realm razer is because Workshop decks will be unable to pay for their own spheres why you just recurr creatures for free, but maybe against that matchup hypnotist is better because you can empty their hand to remove threats. Everyone knows workshop decks struggle with draw.

[nataz]

well, with the witness kill you cycle though your deck with fatestichers and LED/Lotus and THEN you use zelot, so its a combo kill still. And as far as workshop decks, most times you aren't even going to dread return anyways in my experience, so why bother going after their lands? Workshops/aggro are why ichorids are still useful.

What deck play academy? And in the mirror I'd much rather be the deck with the t2 goldfish, then the deck with the t2.5 land destruction (razor OR titan).

oh, something else I just realized. Reveillark gets back 2 grave trolls, that has to be worth looking into. that means you only need to dread return with 3 fatestichers/narco/manlands/ichorid-> rev, + dread return again (only needed 2 spare critters) -> zelot getting 2 large trolls in the process that you can now prob win with. Depending on what you have in your GY it may be possible to just rev -> troll and zelot, but that would imply that there was 15 other creatures in the gy.

Seems good as an alt kill method after losing bridges, or just not leaning to hard on them so you can take advantage of fatestichers and not worry about not getting zombies for them.

I can't believe I missed that in the initial testing of it.  So many cools lines of play open up. Dread -> rev -> witness + troll. Witness -> LED/Black Lotus, restart sticher train -> dread -> zelot for the win. Very interesting. Anything else you can abuse with rev? Anything with tokens would work (trisk), or anything with >2 power. I did also try Rev+ body double + sac outlet + mogg fanatic insta-kill but its too many cards needed in the gy. sigh. 

Props to slighguy for the original idea, and slops to me for missing so many plays. 

[BruiZar]

I was brainstorming a bit about siding Gemstone Caverns now that Fatestitcher is printed.

It allows turn 0 emerald charm or chain of vapor and turn 1 dredge through bazaar and emerald charm or bazaar chaining into fatestitchers. You can remove other Gemstone Caverns or Serum Powder from the game without any setback. You shouldn't draw into any other gemstone caverns anyway since you're dredging your deck away anyhow. First turn wasteland isn't a problem because you can still respond to a Leyline and if your opponent is using wasteland on your caverns, that means your Bazaar is going to survive.

I think Gemstone Caverns can speed up the deck second and third match on the draw by quiet a margin. What are your thoughts?

[TheOrangePet]

I'm now playing Manaless w/3x WPrimus + 3x DReturn. Its quite a beating on an opponents board when you're chaining WPrimus' persisting with DReturns on new WPrimus'. It ends with a couple Therapies and a scoop phase.

[nineisnoone]

I was brainstorming a bit about siding Gemstone Caverns now that Fatestitcher is printed.

It allows turn 0 emerald charm or chain of vapor and turn 1 dredge through bazaar and emerald charm or bazaar chaining into fatestitchers. You can remove other Gemstone Caverns or Serum Powder from the game without any setback. You shouldn't draw into any other gemstone caverns anyway since you're dredging your deck away anyhow. First turn wasteland isn't a problem because you can still respond to a Leyline and if your opponent is using wasteland on your caverns, that means your Bazaar is going to survive.

I think Gemstone Caverns can speed up the deck second and third match on the draw by quiet a margin. What are your thoughts?

It seems like it would be a completely useless mana source outside of the first turn. And how many times do you really need a turn 1 Charm/Chain?  Leyline isn't that prominent anymore and it can't cast anything if it's not in your opening hand (barring Riftstone Portal, which can't give you blue). 

I'm speaking from manaless experience, it seems you are talking about a mana'd deck, but I don't think the idea would change that much.

[Elfrago]

Is Angel of Despair still necessary? Originally it was in the deck as a solution to Platiunium Angel, but now the latter sees zero play so I guess that angel may be cut for a better Dread Return target.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I've always liked angel for its versatility. I've definately hit time vault/key/plats/ basic island (which was extremely relivant) all in the same event. In manaless varients I'd always try to run it.

[neverlookback]

I've always liked angel for its versatility. I've definately hit time vault/key/plats/ basic island (which was extremely relivant) all in the same event. In manaless varients I'd always try to run it.

Not playing angel somewhere in your 75 is crazy, almost as crazy as not using mana, what do you do when I turn pithing needle you?

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I've always liked angel for its versatility. I've definately hit time vault/key/plats/ basic island (which was extremely relivant) all in the same event. In manaless varients I'd always try to run it.

Not playing angel somewhere in your 75 is crazy, almost as crazy as not using mana, what do you do when I turn pithing needle you?

Have a very hard time getting the deck on line despite having an angel.

[meadbert]

I've always liked angel for its versatility. I've definately hit time vault/key/plats/ basic island (which was extremely relivant) all in the same event. In manaless varients I'd always try to run it.

Not playing angel somewhere in your 75 is crazy, almost as crazy as not using mana, what do you do when I turn pithing needle you?

There are any number of answers to turn 1 Needle.

First of all the most relevant game is post board where Dredge is on the play.  This is because Dredge usually wins game 1 thus it only needs 1 win post board and on the play is easier.

On the draw Needle is weak for two reasons.  First, Bazaar gets an activation first and if two dredgers are pitched then Dredge is still likely to win by turn 5.
Second, Unmask can mess up Pithing Needle.
Third Chain of Vapor is solid against Pithing Needle.
Emerald Charm and Chain can combine to get you 4 Bazaar activations in 3 turns against a turn 1 Needle.  Basically you take your turn 1Bazaar, then get needled.  EOT on turn 2 you chain Needle and Bazaar a second time.  On turn 3 you activate Bazaar a third time, untap it with Emerald Charm and then take your 4th activation.
Even if Needle is played on the play then if the Dredge player did not mull they can just use their discard phase and Dredge to fill the yard and still win around turn 5-6.

I win through turn 1 Needle all the time.  That is not to say that Needle is not good against Dredge.  It is good, but it is not some super trump card where you can just run 4 of them and win post board easily.  It generally takes 8-9 solid anti-dredge cards in the board to fix maindecks with few answers.  If you run a maindeck Tormod's Crypt or if you have maindeck Wastelands then you need much less hate.

The problem I have with Angel of Despair as an "answer" is that by the time you Dread Return you should already be winning.  Angel is certainly no great answer to Needle since if you can already Dread Return and you already have your target in the yard then why not just Dread Return any fatty and swing for the win.
Angel is best for removing Ensnaring Bridge and possibly Platz although even Platz is not great against Dredge.

The issue with Platz is that it is risky to use her to attack since your opponent can use the "lose flying" ability on Emerald Charm to chump block her with 2 tokens and remove her.  Instead you must sit there and wait for another win condition to come on line.  Tinker is a common way to get Platz out.  With Tinker in the yard you must get win #2 while your hand is being pillaged and Dredge's engine is left totally intact.  Platz is helpful in a Slaver like deck where Welder can get her and bring her back, but Platz is less helpful in decks that rely on Tinker to cast her.
Please note that everything I just said about Platz applies only to the post board game.  Pre board Platz just wins because Dredge likely has no answer.  Pre board Platz is the best possible use I can think of for Angel of Despair, but I do not see preboard Platz much these days.

Basically I see Angel of Despair as being good against Ensnaring Bridge.  Given that I have heard Vault/Key, Needle and now Ensnaring Bridge as the best uses for Angel of Despair, I think Ancient Grudge makes more sense in that slot.

[Elfrago]

As Meadbert has already stated  Platz is nowhere to be found at the moment. The same, at least for my meta, is true for Ensnaring Bridge. So the only troublesome permenents that you can find maindeck are Vault and Key.

In my opinion Angel could be dropped and that slot could be used in a completely different manner. Not running an answer to Vault/Key maindeck is dangerous, but I'm willing to take the risk (and with discard you should be able to prevent the combo often ).

If you still want to run an answer to that, the Ancient Grudge (suggested by Meadbert) or Woodfall Primus seems better. Even child of Alara deserves some consideration.

[chief]

I've been a solid supporter of ancient grudge in dredge for a long time now.  I also have not run angel for a very long time.  I've never missed the angel at all.  Granted, I play mana ichorid, but I stand by those sentiments for manaless builds as well.

[JodahAE]

In a sideboarded game 2 and 3 has anyone tested running 2 Vision charms. If your running Gemstone Mines or City of Brass this would appear to be a way of really creating a solid synergy with the deck.
It lets you start digging your dredgers if you are mulliganing into oblivion, first turn gemstone or city, target the charm to yourself and digg for some therapies and dredgers.
Vise versa you can stop someone from vampiric tutoring for something when it just gets tossed into the graveyard.
It also lets you phase out any slaver or DSC, Crypt, CotV or Sphere that hits the board to soon.
The third effect might only be could against burn or belcher but all in all it seems like a card that could stand some solid play testing.

[sorcutt]

I split first place in TMD day one with Dredge.  The total attendance was 113 people.

Here's the link to the short tournament report and deck discussion:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37625.msg523759#msg523759

If you're too lazy to click the link, here's the decklist:

main (60)
4x Bazaar of Baghdad
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Fatestitcher
2x Sadistic Hypnotist
4x Serum Powder
4x Bridge from Below
2x Dread Return
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Unmask

side
1x Platinum Angel
4x Ingot Chewer
3x Oxidize
3x Pithing Needle
2x Darkblast
2x Contagion

[meadbert]

I am really excited to see this do so well at a tournament.  This is very close to maindeck that I have been testing with.  Basically I maindeck Leylines over Unmasks and then ran only 7 rainbow lands and 3 Fatestitchers but added in a 3rd Dread Return and 3rd Fatestitcher.

Mostly I maindeck Leylines because they are so crucial in the mirror.  I kept the 4 Unmasks in the board which I board in against everyone except Dredge.

Basically the reason that I run 7 rainbow lands, is because long ago I did a study that determined that the ideal number of lands to run in dredge if you want to use 2 is 10 or 11.  I reasoned that the second land is more important now thus I went for 11 total lands.  This left room for only 7 rainbow lands.  12 may be better now since Fatestitcher is so crucial.

I did do computer simulations to determine that running a 3rd Dread Return and 3rd Hypnotist are more important than the 4th Fatestitcher.  This was only measuring the probability of Dread Returning a Hypnotist on turn 2. Ideally I would have had a more sophisticated heuristc to estimate the effectiveness of other lines of play and count those.  Obviously several Therapies and Dread Returning a Grave-Troll would be solid so there is a flaw in what I did.  Also, I was testing with 11 lands.  The 12 lands may make Fatestitchers more important and additional Fatestitchers in the yard still come out to sac to Therapy, Dread Return and Hypnotist which is nice.

Did you consider running Lotus or LED over the 8th land?  Using Lotus/LED to play multiple Fatestitchers seems insane in your build since you already run 4.

[nataz]

I took a top 8 slot day 2 using the LED/sticher combo but I went for a witness -> zelot kill rather then hypnotist.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37636.msg523894#msg523894

In retrospect I think the Zelot is wrong for the slot. I'd rather have witness + something else, although I'm not sure what.

[nineisnoone]

I took a top 8 slot day 2 using the LED/sticher combo but I went for a witness -> zelot kill rather then hypnotist.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37636.msg523894#msg523894

In retrospect I think the Zelot is wrong for the slot. I'd rather have witness + something else, although I'm not sure what.

Love the report.

Have some questions:

1) Cephalid Coliseum - Is this good here?  I've seen it run in Mana'd versions to great effect, but this is really more a hybrid mana-manaless deck.  Being Bazaar reliant, it only works on turn 3 (slow) or if you hit fast mana (rare?).  If you threw in Rainbow lands instead, it would help post-board a lot and also be pretty solid pre-board since it can let you hard cast the occasional Therapy and flashback ancient grudge. 

2) Where exactly would you put Pithing Needle main deck?  I've been flirting with the idea but not sure where the cuts could be made. In your version, you seem even more crammed for space.

3) How good is chrome mox?  I'd imagine not very, but thought to be necessary as the only available fast mana acceleration.  But with only 8 blue it seems kinda super rare to get it (not counting all the other needs required to make it worthwhile).

[sorcutt]

I am really excited to see this do so well at a tournament.  This is very close to maindeck that I have been testing with.  Basically I maindeck Leylines over Unmasks and then ran only 7 rainbow lands and 3 Fatestitchers but added in a 3rd Dread Return and 3rd Fatestitcher.

Mostly I maindeck Leylines because they are so crucial in the mirror.  I kept the 4 Unmasks in the board which I board in against everyone except Dredge.

Basically the reason that I run 7 rainbow lands, is because long ago I did a study that determined that the ideal number of lands to run in dredge if you want to use 2 is 10 or 11.  I reasoned that the second land is more important now thus I went for 11 total lands.  This left room for only 7 rainbow lands.  12 may be better now since Fatestitcher is so crucial.

I did do computer simulations to determine that running a 3rd Dread Return and 3rd Hypnotist are more important than the 4th Fatestitcher.  This was only measuring the probability of Dread Returning a Hypnotist on turn 2. Ideally I would have had a more sophisticated heuristc to estimate the effectiveness of other lines of play and count those.  Obviously several Therapies and Dread Returning a Grave-Troll would be solid so there is a flaw in what I did.  Also, I was testing with 11 lands.  The 12 lands may make Fatestitchers more important and additional Fatestitchers in the yard still come out to sac to Therapy, Dread Return and Hypnotist which is nice.

Did you consider running Lotus or LED over the 8th land?  Using Lotus/LED to play multiple Fatestitchers seems insane in your build since you already run 4.

Thanks, meatbert!

Thank you for posting the statistical data.  While I might not adhere to it, I definitely appreciate its value.

I commented on my results with Hypnotist in the tourney report so I won't repeat myself.

If I were to run the deck again I would side 4x Leyline and still keep the Unmasks in the maindeck.  Leyline doesn't have nearly the impact game 1 that Unmask does against 95% of the field.  People underestimate how powerful Unmask is in conjunction with Therapy.  I've found the proper way to run Unmask is to always activate Bazaar turn 1.  You will either run into Unmask/fodder to pitch to Unmask.

I have several reasons for not incorporating a LED.  One was due to the fact that it is pretty much worthless post board.  The list is insanely tight as it is.  I prefer consistency over the possibility of seeing a singleton once or twice in an opening hand game one during an 7 round tournament.  The card is certainly a gamebreaker, but you have to think, would LED really impact your game in the course of a tournament? The extra land definitely helps you post board and even pre-board.  Turn 2, the extra land helps hardcast Cabal Therapies and avoid stupid things like Daze. 

[wiley]

First off, congratulations for the finish and for the interesting metagame analysis.

Now on to the questions:

g1 - I have the nuts and go off.  Sadistic Hypnotist was clutch in this match.  It discarded 4 of his cards and won me the game where Flame-Kin or Realm Razer/Titan would not.

...

The game would have ended much sooner if I ran the Flame-Kin kill.  Andrew and I exchange laughs over the awesomeness of THA OOOOZZZE. 

...

g1 - I take damage from his fishy dudes but I Unmask/Therapy away the rest of his threats and overrun him with Zombies.  This was another game that would have ended much sooner with the Flame-Kin kill.

...

I opted to cut the Flame-Kin combo kill for Sadistic Hypnotist.  In testing, Flame-Kin was more of an "all-in" combo strategy that did not suit my playstyle.  Hypnotist has three things going for him:
1. Surprise factor - no one knew what his ability was and some opponents did not make correct decisions when they saw him hit the yard.
2. He doesn't need 6 tokens out to be good -  Let's face it, unless you're playing the uber-agressive Chrome Mox/Breakthrough version of the Dredge deck, Flame-Kin is going to suck in a lot of match-ups.  If you have 6 tokens out, chances are your board position is so good there is no reason you should lose the game anyways.  Hypnotist only needs 1 or 2 Zombie tokens/creatures out to dump an opponent's hand (don't forget, you can sac him to his own ability for another 2 card discard).  This strategy is pretty strong against decks like Tez and Combo.  If your Flame-Kin kill fizzles, those decks are most likely going to kill you next turn.  If you can get off 2 Hypnotist activations, in combination with Therapy, you're all set. 
3. He pitches to Unmask - meh, it was relevant in at least 3 games.

In reality, no matter what Dread Return target you chose, albeit Flame-Kin, Titan, Razor, Troll, Angel of Despair, Hypnotist, etc., you will probably have the game locked up anyways had you not D.R.'d anything.  I probably would not run Hypnotist again.

Flame-kin is an all in whose only help in this entire tournament would have been to end a couple of games quicker.  However, if you had run any creature other than hypnotist you would have lost one of your game 1s in a match where you lost game 2 (or this is how I read it, correct me if I am wrong).  Despite this you say that you would not run him again, citing that the dread return would always be superfluous.

What target would you run if you had this to do this again?  Is there another target with higher ev?  It seems to me that this deck is an excellent example if a turn 2 dread return plan, making hypnotist the best choice.

Also, do you really believe that dread return is an unnecessary plan?  I realize that there was a build further back in the list that ran force of wills and eschewed it, but both plans get around the same things, namely echoing truth and other token destroyers.  Dread Returning something not named zombie token and not costing 0 makes those plans significantly less powerful (same with being able to counter them).  I'd certainly be interested to see more viable dredge decks that didn't need a dread return plan at all, freeing up a lot of space.

[meadbert]

I find Dread Return crucial in game 1 for racing combo and even dedicated aggro, but post board I generally drop down to 1 Dread Return and 0 non Grave-Troll targets.
I would always run at least 1 to dodge Extirpate on Bridge from Below.

I continue to find Hypnotist (which Wiley introduced to me) to be the best target pre board because with Fatestitcher we can Dread Return on turn 2 fairly consistently and Flame-Kin is tougher to pull off with less of the library dredged and Titan/Razor may not have many lands to hit, while your opponent's hand is usually still full of goodies on turn 2.

I agree about LED.  Basically it is slightly faster in game 1, but ends up being a win more since even with a mere Gemstone Mine, if you could use a Fatestitcher you should have already been winning.  Post board Gemstone Mine is better so I totally agree with no LED.

[nataz]

Love the report.

Have some questions:

1) Cephalid Coliseum - Is this good here?  I've seen it run in Mana'd versions to great effect, but this is really more a hybrid mana-manaless deck.  Being Bazaar reliant, it only works on turn 3 (slow) or if you hit fast mana (rare?).  If you threw in Rainbow lands instead, it would help post-board a lot and also be pretty solid pre-board since it can let you hard cast the occasional Therapy and flashback ancient grudge. 

2) Where exactly would you put Pithing Needle main deck?  I've been flirting with the idea but not sure where the cuts could be made. In your version, you seem even more crammed for space.

3) How good is chrome mox?  I'd imagine not very, but thought to be necessary as the only available fast mana acceleration.  But with only 8 blue it seems kinda super rare to get it (not counting all the other needs required to make it worthwhile).

1) I like it with the fast mana since it makes for better t2 activations (as opposed to t3 with regular mana), I could see cutting down to 2 or three though in favor of more rainbow lands maindeck. Perhaps I could also cut 2 for another grudge and another portal, but then I worry about my blue mana count.

Another nice thing about it is that it dodges needle after sb, and sometimes will help you after your bazaar gets wasted.

2) needle maindeck? I know I want another grudge, but I'm not sure about needle.

3) Not as rare as you might think. Figure with a full hand you'll see nine cards after a bazaar activations, and I'll imprint narco's all day long. If I have to I imprint a fatesticher if it starts the chain. Post board the 4 chains make it easier. 

[nineisnoone]

Love the report.

Have some questions:

1) Cephalid Coliseum - Is this good here?  I've seen it run in Mana'd versions to great effect, but this is really more a hybrid mana-manaless deck.  Being Bazaar reliant, it only works on turn 3 (slow) or if you hit fast mana (rare?).  If you threw in Rainbow lands instead, it would help post-board a lot and also be pretty solid pre-board since it can let you hard cast the occasional Therapy and flashback ancient grudge. 

2) Where exactly would you put Pithing Needle main deck?  I've been flirting with the idea but not sure where the cuts could be made. In your version, you seem even more crammed for space.

3) How good is chrome mox?  I'd imagine not very, but thought to be necessary as the only available fast mana acceleration.  But with only 8 blue it seems kinda super rare to get it (not counting all the other needs required to make it worthwhile).

1) I like it with the fast mana since it makes for better t2 activations (as opposed to t3 with regular mana), I could see cutting down to 2 or three though in favor of more rainbow lands maindeck. Perhaps I could also cut 2 for another grudge and another portal, but then I worry about my blue mana count.

Another nice thing about it is that it dodges needle after sb, and sometimes will help you after your bazaar gets wasted.

2) needle maindeck? I know I want another grudge, but I'm not sure about needle.

3) Not as rare as you might think. Figure with a full hand you'll see nine cards after a bazaar activations, and I'll imprint narco's all day long. If I have to I imprint a fatesticher if it starts the chain. Post board the 4 chains make it easier. 

interesting.  i'll have to test it out some more.

and as far as 2 goes, i was referring to this statement

Round 1: Dan Yarrington
w/ deck I made suggestions on that morning at Myraid – or – Hey, why don’t you run maindeck Needle? (shoots self in foot)