[Discussion] Mono R Shop or MUD

[hauntedechos]

Greetings Vintage community.

The current state of Vintage Magic is incredible.  As some others have stated there is tremendous room for both deck creation outright or with beautiful metagame facelifts to existing archtypes.  We've seen the return of both Flash and GAT, Ponder Long, Tropical storm, Oath has been given an incredible new body and with the printing of Thorn, Shop decks have shot into the limelight once more.

Mr. Menendian has already talked about MUD and offered food for thought on this deck.  I thought that we might all talk about MUD and it's counterpart, Mono  aggro Shop.  The point behind all of this is to offer opinions and considerations that might lead a player to select one deck over the other.  Further it is my hope that this thread might decelope into in depth deck breakdowns, possibly including serious lists that have been scrutinized with current placing decks in mind.

MUD is considered to have a tough time with Oath, I would imagen (having not actually played MUD in testing) this is because the Oath player can feel free to drop the Oath and go off.  If this is a gross misunderstanding of the matchup, then please put the correction out there and include some testing and or tournament expirience to back it up.  On the other hand Mono  Shop is considered to have a better match up with TSOath, and I would surmise this is because of  elemental Blasts and the possibility of Moon effects.  I have done some testing with Mono  vs. TSOath, yet I'm not sure it is conclusive due to the fact that it was two fisted testing.  In the testing I've done it seemed to come down to two aspects for Oath.  The first was to have a quick casting of Oath and the other was to counter Chalice at two if it comes down before Oath hits.  In my testing I refrained from casting Welders or Robots, instead waiting for Factories to do the beating.  While I used my strip effects primarily on Orchard, it's certainly not a strong enough play as 1 token will allow the Oath player to go off.  In Shops defence, Chalice at 1 really helped keep the Oath player from digging, while multiple resistors started to stifle the use of Gush effectivly.

I'd like to open the floor to the community and encourage discussion to move towards complete expiriences with playing either MUD or  Shop.  Include some of your current changes to either of these decks, play testing likes and dislikes of each, stengths and weakneses you feel each deck posses (please refrain from the statement "Flux kills you man" and it's ilk because it simply is not so).  Again including a list would be acceptable as long as there is significant thought put behind the changes made, and explanation of these changes are explained and backed up.  I've been examining the sheer explosive starts of MUD versus the recurance and options of  and how either struggles with hate thrown at it.  I would love to know what the comminuty feels about the subject.

So without further delay, let's talk.

-Haunted-

[Thicketman]

After failing miserably with assorted variations of Tendrils, I have decided to build a mono Workshop Aggro deck. This deck is a whole lot more fun and less apathetic than Tendrils. So far my experience with it has only been against GAT, a Tendrils Deck, and some random failed attempts at something new. Mono Workshop schools all of those and I can only imagine it will ruin Oath's day as well. I have absolutely no mana problems and trinisphere, sphere of resistence, and thorn of amethyst slow down almost every deck. I think the previously listed cards will put an end to the Tyrant. Also, Magus of the Moon shuts down a lot of control decks as well. I think the strongest opposition to this deck is  {U}Control. Red Elemental Blast can help out a little against  but against black I have no defense except slowing someone down with spheres and trying to beat them down fast. First turn Tinker Colossus is also a problem if they have no artifacts in the graveyard, but that is a rare occasion. As I am new to this deck and also just returning to magic after about 10 years, I will not only appreciate feedback and help, but I also hope that I have helped as well.

[hauntedechos]

We all have become aware of the difficult matchup vs. TAOath.  It doesn't matter if you are playing MUD or  {R}aggro Shop, it's still a trying matchup.  I was thinking of cards that have potential to combat Oath and I came across Arena.  Of course, SSS Oath is a different story, but for the rest of the builds Arena should be a decent call I would think.

I would love to hear some players thoughts on this card in terms of viability to combat non-sss Oath.  The only drawback that I see is the fact that your opponent chooses the creature which will be effected by Arena.  While this is certainly a limitation of the card in the more aggro based meta, I do not feel that this is terrible.  We would still have the option of tapping arena and seeing how it plays out, then selecting kataki, meddling mage, magus of the moon, which ever goblin in play and remove Trisks counters to do some damage there.  In MUD your trisk may then be gone, in  shop however you may be in a better position if you have an active welder to keep the clearing going.

Once again, Ièd like to hear some thoughts on this card by the community.  Is it just what the doctor ordered or is it a pipe dream of mine where I have missed the point along the way:  Letès discuss.

Haunted.

[Everrid1234]

For me the Welder tricks are more luxury than really necessary. If you want a really fast lockdown i would everytime say "Play MUD", if you want a deck which plays more tricks, abuses Bazaar of Baghdad, play Mono R.

I think there is not a really big difference between both. They have the same problem matchups. Of course a fast Welder scares the MUD player a lot, but a fast Trike played by the MUD player scares Mono R since Welder is useless now and the deck is tuned to abuse Welder. But Welder doesn't help against Aggro, not against Combo....I don't know what his big advantage is in the current meta. Red Blasts can solve the Energy Flux problem, but fast enough? I don't think so. It's too reactive.
I think one great pro for MUD is the ability to fully concentrate on the lockdown and so play 9 Spheres. These help against Oath, slowing down, dropping Tangle Wire, Chalice and Smokestack. A Welder doesn't shine here.

You have to live with the knowledge that Oath and maybe Ichorid matchups are nearly unwinnable´if you are on the draw. So pack Eon Hub in the SB which also hates Energy Flux and Kataki. This one is also played faster in MUD.

[hauntedechos]

@ erverid:   Today I've been two fist testing MUD versus TSOath and I've found a couple of things.  Before I get into them, it's important to note that I have been using an unconventional build that uses 4 Factories and 4 Waste 1 Strip and 3 Crucibles.  Knowing this will leave me open for criticism I'm sure but the following is what I've found.

When abusing the factories as the beaters, I've switched gears from explosive starts via Metal Worker, to use Factories as my beaters.  The positive effects of this while playing against Oath are obvious.  The next fact, increased mana denial, has also helped tremendously.  I realise that it will be looked at as too much focus on it, but when playing against a fast deck like TSOath, I think that it's the way I'm comfortable attacking it.  Resistors and the rest of the traditional package remain intact of course and function as always.

Mid game I've found that I can drop 2 Trisks and know that when my oponent (myself in this case lol) Oaths, I have enough counters on Trisk to remove to kill the first Tidespout.  To be sure, I wouldn't advise dropping a creature untill you have the Oath player sufficiently locked out, otherwise the 2nd Trisk WILL be countered.  With the waste effects and resistors this doesn't take too, too long, yet it's very dicey along the way.  This is all pre board mind you, post..things get out of control and your chances of living drop dramaticly.

Post board I've found that the base principal of dropping Factories and swinging with them is still a solid way to fly under the radar.  Of course you are now looking at flux in the face and this will of course limit how many artifacts you put into play.  Normaly this is an issue as you would want to drop your hand on the table to beat face, but with factories it allows you the chance to NOT put them on the table and drop only disruption pieces that matter against the Oath player.

Are your chances of winning great? not really, especially since game 1 you have no real idea what you are playing against.  In fact your chances are pretty dismal, but they are still there.  MUD reliies on fast hard locks as you've said, which is also it's weakness in the face of Oath and Flux.  I think that if MUD and  shop are going to continue to be contenders, they will have to switch things up a bit.  As you've said Eon Hub from the board helps against Flux, and to a lesser extent Oath activations, but envariably they will be bounced or otherwise destroyed.  There has to be an underlying plan in the Main that gives you a better chance game 1 against these decks and I think that right now it's Factories and the possibility of Arena versus Oath.

I've been testing Jitte in SOFAI's slot and found that it is infinitly more usefull in the aggro match.  That is obvious to all I'm sure, however I've also found it much more usefull to the Oath match as well.  By now we should realize that we cannot race them, so the best thing we can do is control HOW they go off.  I've found in my limited initial testing that a Jitte and a factory on the board has allowed me to control tokens and the ability to activate Oath.  These cards are in the main and do not take into considerations of Powder kegs, eon hubs and other sb options.

The fact that my list is not optimal to Menendian standards (and I'm sure to the world as well), and it's doing alright in early preliminary testing (including sculpting hands for Oath as openers that always include 1 Duress 1 Force with pitch card and 1 Oath and the means to cast it turn 2 the latest) means something to me...MUD needs to give up a little of it's tradition to stand up to the deck that will always be favoured to win.  I would imagen that because of the symetry of GAT and TSOaths engines and light mana bases etc, the game against GAT is even better for you as it was already great to begin.  I don't think the reduction of explosivemess will have a terrible impact on the game.

I'd release the list I'm working on right now, however there are reasons for me not doing so. The first is that I know I'm going to come under heavy fire for what I'm talking about in terms of an archtype that has been proven as such for years.  The second is that the testing stage is very early and I don't think untill there are solid test games played agaisnt a few test partners that it warrents a list being put out.  Suffice to say in terms of the list...I've just made room for 2 more Factories and 1 more Waste than Steve has listed, switched up the swords used and I use 3 Crucibles main.  As it stands I have NO sideboard while I use postboard cards in TSOath every game.  The idea being that I want to make it as hard as possible for me to win with MUD.

With that said, how are the games going?  I've played 10-ish so far and I've lost 3 of them.  In thoes games Oath went first and had Orchard, Oath, Mox and Force with pitch card or with Duress and draw card.  While one game I suffered from Sea, jet duress, duress taking disruption pieces and then a turn 2 Oath hitting play followed by a resolved and unhindered Orchard.  While this shows that the matches are not blowouts, there is still initial testing that shows that there is better hope than we might think.  The matches that were won were by no means a walk in the park, and required carefull consideration of what to drop in.  Keeping a strip effect up and open was paramount in pretty much every game played.

I will certainly post more accurate results as I go and I would certainly encourage anyone to try some new things out and see how they work out for you.  I'm sure I look like an incompetant Oath player, but just try it out and see how you all feel.  Unfortunatly where I live here in Canada, there are the rare Vintage tournaments *sigh* so testing is done with play groups and the odd tournament (which I've not had the chance to play a shop based deck in yet).

Haunted.

[hauntedechos]

*sigh*

After 2 additional matches of MUD vs. Oath I've seen that MUD gets it's rear end handed to it.  To be sure, the Factories extend the games, forcing the Oath player to find Orchard.  If Chalice is set to 1 early on and a factory is online early enough wins can be taken.  However it requires aggressive muligaming and in the end, w/o a full hand the deck cannot keep pace.

I found myself wishing that I was playing mono  during these matches as I've found that they were most usefull casting against the tyrant himself and not flux.  To be sure, the match ups are completely uphill and will require even more testing of other cards that I have in mind.

Haunted.

[meadbert]

I am still playing the same Uba Stax main deck that I have been playing for a while.

4 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountain
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Bazaar of Baghdad

1 BlackLotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
4 Serum Powder
1 Sol Ring

4 Smokestack
4 Uba Mask
4 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice Of The Void

2 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Goblin Welder

New Sideboard:
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Null Rod
4 Powder Keg
4 Leyline of the Void

I have shifted the board to deal with Shop Aggro.  Unfortunately it does not deal well with Oath.
Ever since Metalworker Stax and Shop Aggro showed up, Null Rod has been getting better and better.  While I am unwilling to maindeck it yet, due to its relative weakness against GAT and total uselessness against Ichorid, it is a strong hate card.  Bomberman can be added to the list of decks that hate Null Rod as well.

With Auriok Salvagers, Triskelion, Welder, Heretic and others showing up I was very tempted to add Damping Matrix.  If Matrix shut off Metalworker then I would have done it.  Instead I still believe Null Rod to be better, although the above deck is weak against Heretic.

I also considered REB/Pyroblast since they hit Energy Flux and Tidespout Tyrant while ofcourse being great against GAT.  That right there seems like enough reasons to run Pyroblast.  The problem is that Pyroblast is weak with an Uba Mask out.  When blue based control is playing Welders and you are actually boarding out your Uba Masks then REB and Pyro become good.  This happened during Control Slaver's heyday.
I am not sure that the "REB is bad with Uba Mask" argument is valid since if you can resolve Uba Mask against GAT then you are probably already winning.  In that case what is Pyroblast shutting off?  It is usually countering a counter spell or a draw spell and Uba Mask is already hosing those.  The best use of Pyroblast in that scenario is probably against Rebuild or Energy Flux.  Anyway, Because of Tyrant, Flux, Rebuild, GAT and even Drain Tendrils Pyroblast and REB might be getting really good again.

The other guy that might be really good is Jester's Cap.  Top uses would be against Tyrant Oath, Drain Tendrils and Flash.  All three decks can be somewhat problematic and Cap is vicious against all of them.

Powder Keg is a very good jack of all trades card.  It takes out Pithing Needle which is frequently crucial post board.  It removed Warrens tokens and Bridge tokens and sort of combos with Karn against Ichorid to simultaneously remove Bridge Tokens and Bridge from Below.  Keg also blows up all Dryads/Goyfs in one swing and can remove opposing Welders if those threaten.  Finally Keg even blows up Orchard tokens making it difficult for Oath to activate Oath of Druids.  Keg + Wasteland means Oath must find Orchard #2.
Against Flash if you get the chance to ramp Keg to 1 then you can blow up all Virulent Slivers.

Keg is not amazing in matchups.  Instead it is pretty good in many matchups.  The main reason I do not maindeck Keg is that Pithing Needles do not show up in the main and that is one of its primary purposes.

Leyline of the Void is obvious.  It buys you time against Ichorid and Flash.

The last card is Ensarning Bridge.  This card is a really pain for heavy aggro.  Goyf.dec hates it.  I am not sure if it makes the cut against GAT, but Shop Aggro hates Ensnaring Bridge.  Finally, Ichorid really hates it.
Ensnaring Bridge has really nice synergy with Bazaar of Baghdad and Uba Mask since both tend to make your hand small.  Barbarian Ring recursion allows you to win while your opponent cannot attack.  I played Ensnaring Bridge for a while in Uba Stax and loved it till Ancient Grudge was printed.  Then Oath and Ichorid started running Ancient Grudge in the board and Ensnaring Bridge got much worse.  Now Ichorid is less likely to run Ancieng Grudge.  Ensnaring Bridge basically sucks against Oath since Tyrant allows it to be easily bounced.  Bridge is mostly in there for Shop Aggro, Goyf.dec, Ichorid and even Goblins.

Tyrant Oath is definitely a bad matchup, but it is not terrible.  The last time I played someone on MWS I lose 3-2 in 5 games.  Game 5 actually came down to a Mana Crypt roll.  That is how close it was.  Oath is definitely a bad matchup, but it is not terrible.

Should Jester's Caps or REBs be added to the board?

[Red Irish]

Please see my posting under the "Workshop" thread. There may be a case for merging the two topics, although I want to focus on Aggro Shop rather than become involved in a Shop/MUD selection debate.

Cheers

[hauntedechos]

As I posted on the Workshop thread also in the improvement forums.  A boon to the  shop player in the Oath Match is Greater Gargadon.  Surely x4 should be in the side during this Oath metagame.  Does something like this tip the scales in  shops favour?

Haunted.

[sorcutt]

I've tested Greater Gargadon several times and it's pretty good in the oath matchup.  It's a probably a better option in mono R stax than goblin bombardment, spawning pool, and probably even Eon Hub.  The reason I like Eon Hub, even though it's sometimes problematic to get out due to the high CC, is that it's very useful in other matches (stops Energy Flux, Smokestack, Tanglewire, Powder Keg, BOB, Oath, damage from your own Crypt and a ton of other annoyances).  The problem with Gargadon is that as soon as you get it out it's not terribly good because it's still a 2/3 turn clock which isn't great if your opponent is at more than 9 life.

MUD's most viable option is really to try and win via first turn Metal Worker + 2nd turn Staff or somehow get an Eon Hub out.

Either way, with a shop deck, oath is probably gonna smash your face in no matter what you board.  Have fun boarding in that REB/pyro once your Oath opponent sides in Blazing Archon and pretty much says "GG".  I remember Smemmen once said something about REB/pyroblast in regards to its inclusion in Oath.  It was something to the negative impact on a stax/mono r/staxless stax deck to the nature of 'you're trying to take a proactive deck and trying to turn it into a reactive deck'.  Think about it.  Are you really gonna hold on to a REB instead of utilizing your mana to cast something that agrees more with the theme of your deck like, spheres, chalice, or some other shenanigans?

-sorcutt

[sorcutt]

Given the depth of the responses this thread should probably be moved to development side, right?

[meadbert]

Greater Gargodon is actually very interesting.  He buys a lot of turns against Oath.  The problem is once Oath is able to Oath out Tyrant, Oath should win since they can bounce Gargodon easily enough.  The real advantage is in having a card that keeps Oath from Oathing for several turns.

[hauntedechos]

Greater gargadon has a suspension of 10.  Assuming the Oath player taps for a token on your end step then again after untap, you have 5 turns to sufficiently lock the Oath player out.  Are you going to ract Oath? no that's silly.  I use the Factory base and Jitte over SOFI, which means I beat  for unmolested and hopefully get a jitte in, if not then the rest of the disruption  soaks up counters.  In the mean time 4 Waste and 1 Strip w/ Crucible ties things up pretty well.

Post board is when I would use gargadons or course and this has yet to be tested, as does the use of Arena.  I will be reporting more as it happens.  So far the pre board matches have been 50-50 as long as I walk the line carefully and Oath doesn't have a blow out hand.

Haunted.

[Thicketman]

Also posted in the other Workshop thread. In a Mono    Workshop deck, I was curious if running 4 Badlands and 2 mountains instead of 6 Mountains and throwing in a Demonic Tutor would be a good decision. Also, would it hurt to throw a Mindslaver in there for shits and giggles?

[Thicketman]

I had another idea! How about throwing a fireball in the deck just to throw them off balance LOL!

[Troy_Costisick]

I had another idea! How about throwing a fireball in the deck just to throw them off balance LOL!

Kaervek's Torch

[hauntedechos]

Actually I was thinking of adding wall of dust for good aggro measures.....aaaanyways.

I have actually thought about (last night testing today possibly) of adding in plataues for Seal of cleansing against the mirror and Oath matchs. As well I was going to try and find room for x2 Flooded Strands.

Haunted.

[Thicketman]

Actually I was thinking of adding wall of dust for good aggro measures.....aaaanyways.

I have actually thought about (last night testing today possibly) of adding in plataues for Seal of cleansing against the mirror and Oath matchs. As well I was going to try and find room for x2 Flooded Strands.

Haunted.

Someone else already brought up a good point about the dual land thing. It makes the Solemn Simulacrum less useful and leaves you more open to wasteland.

[sorcutt]

The only absolute auto-lose for Mono Red right now (or just about any shop deck) is Jeff Carpenter's version of Tyrant blue.  There is practically nothing a shop deck can do vs. that monstrosity.  If you sit down in front of that thing prepare for the most savage beating of your life.  The only wins I squeaked out were when they meditated and I got a SOFI out and was able to swing twice when their life total was low.  A shop deck is not a favorite against Oath by any means (probably a 4 to 1 in favor of Oath, and that's being generous for shops).  Against mono-blue Tyrant you're seriously like a 9 to 1 dog.  There just aren't any real options because it pretty much avoids all your threats. 

-They use islands so moon man is crap
-A first turn mystic remora is sometimes better than Ancestral for them
-They run mana drain so your spheres can be negated by 1 clutch drain
-Show and Tell + Tyrant = GG

I just don't see any way to win that match.  Suggestions?

[meadbert]

Red Elemental Blast
Pyroblast
Jester's Cap

[xycsoscyx]

Actually I was thinking of adding wall of dust for good aggro measures.....aaaanyways.

I have actually thought about (last night testing today possibly) of adding in plataues for Seal of cleansing against the mirror and Oath matchs. As well I was going to try and find room for x2 Flooded Strands.

Haunted.

I would consider Taiga over Plateu.  It still lets you run Seal of Primordium (instead of Cleansing), but also lets you run Ancient Grudge, which can give you a better game against other Shop decks, as well.  Green also gives you Tin Street Hooligan if you want to go a more aggro route (against other Shop decks, obviously).  Green also gives you Krosan Grip, when you just have to get rid of a pesky Artifact or Enchantment. 

[sorcutt]

Red Elemental Blast
Pyroblast
Jester's Cap

Have you ever playtested against it? 

reb/pyro/cap pretty much all suck.

[hauntedechos]

Mox junky, we're trying to make this thread a consortium of ideas for thoes that WANT to play  shop regardless of this all encompassing juggernaught you call Tyrant Blue.  As such we are looking for possibilities to aid the games across the board.  If you insist on down playing shop because of this incredible mono  deck, then please do it elsewhere.  Your comments have yet to be constructive and help vintage players in any ways shape of form.

Haunted.

[hauntedechos]

In light of mox junkies enthusiasm towards Tyrant blue, I will post the most recent list they have released and a few quotes from the creators as well.

Here is the list

// Lands
    1  Library of Alexandria
    1  Tolarian Academy
    3  Polluted Delta
    3  Flooded Strand
    6  Island
    2  Tropical Island

// Creatures
    3  Tidespout Tyrant
    1  Darksteel Colossus
    1  Jace Beleren

// Spells
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Black Lotus
    4  Meditate
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Jet
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Misdirection
    4  Force of Will
    3  Mana Drain
    4  Mystic Remora
    1  Mox Emerald
    2  Show and Tell
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Tinker
    1  Mindslaver
    3  Repeal
    1  Brain Freeze

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 3  Oath of Druids
SB: 4  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3  Spell Snare
SB: 1  Thran Foundry
SB: 1  Platinum Angel

And here are a few quotes from them in concerns to thier match ups:

The deck has poor game against ichorid due to a lack of access to black.
Goblins, isn't played heavily in NE. I do not expect to see many of them scurrying about. Even if so, the matchup is not impossible. Simply no favorable.
Shop Aggro is similar to ichorid, but with a far worse game 2 and 3.

Well there we go ladies and gents, let's look at all the tools (not just traditional items) and see how we can deal with both this AND Oath.

To start, Chalice @ 1 looks good.  If we are on the play it would be a sure fire way to soak up a Force of will, and beyond that it's going to draw a counter every time.  Of course, if Drain mana is up, and we have a REB in hand, drawing out a drain might not be bad.  Play Chalice they Drain, pass, they untap and play Show and tell .. now do we REB the show and tell or wait?  my instincts tell me that we wait untill they drop tyrant then blast him.  Of course they will have a chance to bounce something, however I think it's more important that at that point they will have burned 2 or more cards over the whole thing.  What's more, if we have previouslt resolved a welder, then the chalice comes in next turn anyways.

Is this an overly simplified way of looking at the events? sure it can be looked at that way, however in my testing against Oath, that is the sort of play I have made work to my advantage.  REB on the tyrant is the last line of defence you have, if that failes you're not going to be doing so hot.

Now let's look at the mana curve of this deck:

6-14 zero casting cost (if you include the force of wills and Misdirections with alt casting)
13 one casting
4 two casting
11 three casting and up.

It seems pretty fast because of the pitch magic (4 Misdirections don't effect us and will come out game 2-3) and the draw spells.  Chalice at one is a terrible thing if resolved early I would imagen w/o testing.  Meditate draws them 4 cards at the cost of a turn...this time walk for us seems like a key spot to get geared up for.

Think... more than likely they will have counter magic drawn or already in hand.  Given a hand size of 7 you can bet on 2 pieces of counter magic on average and 3 with the nuts.  Thusly we would hope to have 2 threats to drop on the first and timewalk turn.  Given the superior mana base including shops and tombs/traitors we should have a fairly easy time dropping these.

Decks like GAT, TSOath and now Tyrant blue use few mana sources and offset this fact with a lower mana curve, this seems like yet another fact to pay attention to.  Unlike GAT and TSOath, this deck runs 6 basics and keeps us from mangling with Wasteland.  Therefore, playing chalice at 0, keeps the acceleration off the table (null Rod might be another choice) and therefore makes resistor effects even worse for them.  I would suspect that a resistor and chali at zero and one would be pretty tough on them, while being very easy for us to drop.

Lastly let's look at some simple numbers here:

Tyrant has twelve counters and we have nine sphere effects and four chali (12).  While Tyrant can counter our artifacts and then keep drawing, a resolved Welder brings all the threats back un counterable, which essentially is like playing against mini Yawgs Wills...that cannot be countered.

I'm going to conclude (again w/o testing) that this match up is going to be like every other deck that will attempt to abuse Tyrant.  It's going to be a game of wisely using your resources and being leaning on both threat density and timing to gain percentages.  I belive that we are the beatdown in this matchup and should play the role accordingly untill a game state is reached that allows us to play the control.  I'm sure I could be totally wrong.

Haunted.

[Troy_Costisick]

-Show and Tell + Tyrant = GG

I dunno.  You play Show and Tell + Tyrant.  I play Duplicant.  Seems like I'll win that exchange.  GG.

Peace,

-Troy

[hauntedechos]

LoL with troy, good point.

At any rate, has anyone looked into/tested Arena?  Sure it gets wasted, but I would imagen that it would greatly improve the Oath match...or am I missing something about Arena when there is only one creature on the opponents side?

[meadbert]

Red Elemental Blast
Pyroblast
Jester's Cap

Have you ever playtested against it? 

reb/pyro/cap pretty much all suck.

So I had not tested against Tyrant Blue when I made that post.  I was just Brainstorming off the top of my head.  At the time the Tyrant Blue lists I was familiar with ran 3xTyrant and Platz.  Since Platz is a terrible win condition against Uba Stax I figured that Cap would be good.  Jeff Carpenter's list runs DSC instead of Platz and that is much better against Uba Stax.  Perhaps Cap would be worse.

Anyway, I did go ahead and test this matchup.  I only played 4 games all pre-board.  This is not nearly enough to make any sort of sound judgement, but it seems to me that Uba Stax has a very strong matchup against Tyrant Blue pre board.


Uba Mask is total wrecking ball.  It hoses all of the draw spells including Meditate, Brainstorm and Mystic Remora and it largely shuts off Show and Tell since you actually need to get a DSC/Tyrant into your hand to use it.  With Repeal as the only bounce spell (other than Tyrants), removing Uba Mask is very difficult.  Since Tyrant Blue runs nothing in the way of tutors it relies on its draw engine to draw into win conditions.  Uba Mask ruins this whole strategy.  Turn 1 Uba Mask is pretty much good game.  Smokestack and Trinisphere fall into the same category.  Sphere or Resistance really slows the game down in a way that favors Uba Stax.

The large number of basics, fetches and Drains really helps Tyrant Blue.

There are only 3 Drains and no Scrolls to find Drains or Forces

The fact that Tyrant Blue runs 4 Misdirections does not help things.

Anyway I won three of four in my testing.  I lost once to an early Show and Tell that put Tyrant into play.

Meditate is in theory awesome against Stax, but it never did anything in the four games I played.  The problem is Meditate is good once Smokestack is ramping.  The only problem is with few ways to remove Smokey you are basically already losing that game.  You need to draw into Show and Tell / Tyrant and then hope you have enough permanents to cast Show and Tell aftering saccing 2 or more permanents to Stack.

I have not tested post board.

I still have not tested REB, Pyroblast or Jester's Cap.

Four games is only four games so I do not want to read to much into them, but I would hardly characterize this as one of Uba Stax's worst matchups.  I would play Tyrant Blue over Tyrant Oath, Goblins or even Control Slaver any day.

[Thicketman]

I am going to be testing Mono  Shop against a few Oath decks and a creatureless Oath deck. I will be trying all mentioned sideboard options and figure out which is best. I will post my findings once I find them 

[Troy_Costisick]

Hauntedechoes,

Could I get a current list for the deck you are working on in this thread?  I'd appreciate it

Peace,

-Troy

[Harlequin]

I think its about time to chime in...

First of all, I'm fattered  that you think my deck is worthy of consideration in your testing gauntlet.  But really, I think tyrant blue makes up less than 2% of the meta.  So I wouldn't focus too much attention on it.  That being said, Uba Mask is a savage beating for Tyrant Blue.  Of all the cards in red and artifact Uba and possessed portal are probably the biggest problems for Tyrant Blue.  As you correctly identify, it hurts not only the draw engine and control package - but it actually makes show and tell fairly worthless.  And again, its hard to remove with repeal.

I question the power of Uba mask in general though.  Its mediocre against Oath and GAT.  Doesn't help against Ichord.  Creature/tempo decks generally won't care.  It can have game against Metalworker.  And it's hit or miss against Flash.



Here is what remains of "Jaws."  The deck I would describe as a Mono-Red tempo deck with Shop support.  In the spirit of full disclosure, the list below would to TERRIBLY against Tyrant Blue.  Unfortunately, I think the meta is shifting away from this deck...

4 Shops
4 Ancient Tombs
6 Mountains
3 Barbarian Ring

5 Mox
3 Sol, Lotus, Crypt
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Welders
4 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Gorrila Shaman
2 Tareen Mauler

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Orb of Dreams
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Bloon Moon
1 Trinisphere

3 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Spawning Pit
1 Greater Gargidon
3 Jester's Cap
2 Viashino Heratic
2 Shattering Spree
2 Duplicant