Is Flash Really That Good?

[Thicketman]

Is Flash really as good as it seems? It wins consistantly 1st turn.  There must be a reason why tournaments aren't overrun with Flash decks.

I'm just hoping someone points out something obvious for me. It seems I have to have a deck full of Force of Wills to stop it.

[fury]

Is Flash really as good as it seems? It wins consistantly 1st turn.  There must be a reason why tournaments aren't overrun with Flash decks.

I'm just hoping someone points out something obvious for me. It seems I have to have a deck full of Force of Wills to stop it.

Flash is consistent yes. But to win 1st turn, the player has to begin the game without a Leyline of the Void on the table. Moreover, if the Flash player is disrupted 1st turn, he has difficulties to come back in the game. Indeed, he needs 4 cards to win (excepting the fact he has Black Lotus in hand) : 2 mana sources, one Flash and One Protean Hulk. If some of the combo pieces are disrupted/Trickbinded , as the Flash archetype doesn't draw that much, it is slowed down. And the graveyard hate is very present, as we can see in the metagame sideboards : most of them pack in Leyline of the Void.

[nicofromtokyo]

The problem with Flash is not to know wether it's broken or not. The deck is not the best deck ever.

BUT, you can win games and tournaments only by drawing Flash and Hulk. Anyone can do that, no matter you're good or not at Magic, no matter your opponent has the best deck of the world, no matter whatever. And playing against or with the deck is soo boring and frustrating.

Usually, to kill turn 1, you have to face heavy risks, like being screwed by a counter when you play Belcher, or coping with a puzzle in front of you like SX Tendrils, but Flash just ignores these 2 points : you will always have at least one counter, and the only thing to have to do is casting Flash. You can win without effort and with a lot of back-up.

Remember Legacy? The card was banned not because the deck won every tournaments but because it warped the metagame so heavily : everybody had to play 4 Leyline to hope having a chance against it... So fun...

[TheAlpha]

Is Flash really as good as it seems?

Flash is only good against people who don't know how to mulligan/play.

[nicofromtokyo]

Is Flash really as good as it seems?

Flash is only good against people who don't know how to mulligan/play.

According you don't play FoW (well, it happens), what are you supposed to do when you don't play first?

[hazard]

Flash is good.  It's won tourneys and exhibits typical Vintage brokenness. Sure, there are small nuances that can make you a better pilot, but the deck is very simple to play.  I have played it and played against it.  I don't play it anymore because it is honestly zero fun to play.  You get two turn one kills against your opponent and feel like a pogue.  Did you come to the tournament to win?  Fine - you have a chance with this.  Did you come to the tournament to win and have a good time interacting with some other 'cardslingers'?  Don't bring Flash.

[TheAlpha]

Is Flash really as good as it seems?

Flash is only good against people who don't know how to mulligan/play.

According you don't play FoW (well, it happens), what are you supposed to do when you don't play first?

If you don't play FoW your odds of winnings against Flash deminish quite fast... you're quite likely to lose because most permanents you can play on your first turn don't really matter to the Flash player. Actually your argument applies to a lot of plays. What if your opponent plays Turn1 Necro? Turn1 Ancestral? Turn1 Orchard Mox Oath? Or Shop 3sphere?

I played a Flash deck in multiple tournaments and won a lot of games because people kept hands with general good cards that don't matter in the matchup. For example, a Stax player kept a hand with a tangle wire and welder and no spheres. A GAT player kept a hand on the draw without a counter but with a duress. Obviously my brainstorm made his duress useless and I won.

[Shock Wave]

If you don't play FoW your odds of winnings against Flash deminish quite fast... you're quite likely to lose because most permanents you can play on your first turn don't really matter to the Flash player. Actually your argument applies to a lot of plays. What if your opponent plays Turn1 Necro? Turn1 Ancestral? Turn1 Orchard Mox Oath? Or Shop 3sphere?

Did you notice how most of the cards you've mentioned are restricted, and Flash is not? Also, did you take into consideration that while the cards you've mentioned are powerful spells, that they do not immediately win you the game once they've resolved?

Actually, now that you've mentioned it, what is particularly hilarious is the fact that Necropotence is restricted. Consider: Dark Ritual + Necropotence = 2 card combo that wins you the game on the following turn (most of the time). Flash + Protean Hulk = 2 card combo that wins you the game immediately.

It's time that the DCI reconsider the reasoning that this deck is allowed to exist, beyond "T1 is all about playing with all your cards!". If Trinisphere, Necropotence, and Gifts are restricted (and FoF!), how is it reasonable that this degenerate combo remains unchecked?

[diopter]

If you don't play FoW your odds of winnings against Flash deminish quite fast... you're quite likely to lose because most permanents you can play on your first turn don't really matter to the Flash player. Actually your argument applies to a lot of plays. What if your opponent plays Turn1 Necro? Turn1 Ancestral? Turn1 Orchard Mox Oath? Or Shop 3sphere?

Did you notice how most of the cards you've mentioned are restricted, and Flash is not? Also, did you take into consideration that while the cards you've mentioned are powerful spells, that they do not immediately win you the game once they've resolved?

Actually, now that you've mentioned it, what is particularly hilarious is the fact that Necropotence is restricted. Consider: Dark Ritual + Necropotence = 2 card combo that wins you the game on the following turn (most of the time). Flash + Protean Hulk = 2 card combo that wins you the game immediately.

It's time that the DCI reconsider the reasoning that this deck is allowed to exist, beyond "T1 is all about playing with all your cards!". If Trinisphere, Necropotence, and Gifts are restricted (and FoF!), how is it reasonable that this degenerate combo remains unchecked?

Flash is not dominating in tournament play.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Flash is not dominating in tournament play.

I don't play it anymore because it is honestly zero fun to play.  You get two turn one kills against your opponent and feel like a pogue.  Did you come to the tournament to win?  Fine - you have a chance with this.  Did you come to the tournament to win and have a good time interacting with some other 'cardslingers'?  Don't bring Flash.

I think that's part of the Flash debate.  We don't really know how powerful, degenerate, and "un-fun" Flash is because people don't like to play it.  It's not especially challenging (there's no puzzle aspect, you have tons of counters), and there's enough hate in the format to scare people away.  People don't bring it to tournaments in the numbers they should.  Playing a two-card, two-mana combo that wins the game (now at instant speed!) seems pretty good, even if you do have to fight through a few hate cards.  If Flash ever starts populating tournaments at the levels it probably should, it will likely be short lived.

[fury]

Flash is not dominating in tournament play.

Is it a sufficient argument not to restrict it ?

[diopter]

Flash is not dominating in tournament play.

Is it a sufficient argument not to restrict it ?

It should be. If Flash isn't putting up the kind of numbers GAT was, then the only reasoning to restrict it is "on principle". But on what principle? For the people who are opposed to the idea that your tournament experience is going to be ruined by first turn kills every third round or something, you're already safe from that because Flash is a minor metagame player. Why ruin the party for the people who do like Flash?

[Shock Wave]

Why ruin the party for the people who do like Flash?

Why ruin the party for people who like Dream Halls?
Why ruin the party for people who like Necropotence?
Why ruin the party for people who like Yawgmoth's Bargain?
Why ruin the party for people who like Frantic Search?
Why ruin the party for people who like Voltaic Key?
Why ruin the party for people who like Fact or Fiction?
Why ruin the party for people who like Gifts Ungiven?

Just because there are people who like playing Flash, that does not amount to a compelling reason to allow players to kill their opponent (consistently enough) before they get a chance to even play their cards. Recall that Trinisphere was restricted by this exact same measuring stick.

f Flash isn't putting up the kind of numbers GAT was, then the only reasoning to restrict it is "on principle". But on what principle?

Flash wins tournaments. It has before, it will again. We're not talking about Meandeck SX, which might have graced a few T8s in its entire lifetime. This deck would be neutered along the same line of reasoning that Long was dealt with: It wins the game (ie. the game ends) on the 1st and 2nd turn with unacceptable frequency. Recall that Long was never played in the numbers that Flash is, and it still had to answer the restriction bell.

[diopter]

Why ruin the party for the people who do like Flash?

Why ruin the party for people who like Dream Halls?
Why ruin the party for people who like Necropotence?
Why ruin the party for people who like Yawgmoth's Bargain?
Why ruin the party for people who like Frantic Search?
Why ruin the party for people who like Voltaic Key?
Why ruin the party for people who like Fact or Fiction?
Why ruin the party for people who like Gifts Ungiven?

Just because there are people who like playing Flash, that does not amount to a compelling reason to allow players to kill their opponent (consistently enough) before they get a chance to even play their cards. Recall that Trinisphere was restricted by this exact same measuring stick.

f Flash isn't putting up the kind of numbers GAT was, then the only reasoning to restrict it is "on principle". But on what principle?

Flash wins tournaments. It has before, it will again. We're not talking about Meandeck SX, which might have graced a few T8s in its entire lifetime. This deck would be neutered along the same line of reasoning that Long was dealt with: It wins the game (ie. the game ends) on the 1st and 2nd turn with unacceptable frequency. Recall that Long was never played in the numbers that Flash is, and it still had to answer the restriction bell.

Voltaic Key is unrestricted. If you would like the DCI to unrestrict the other cards to see if they dominate Vintage, I welcome you to it. Necro and Bargain would likely make their way back onto the restricted list in short order.

The Long restriction was a knee-jerk restriction. It's unclear whether Long would have actually dominated, given that Workshop was just getting its modern prison tools. Deckbuilding was also not as refined then - Mana Drain was the end-all-be-all of control decks, and the effective-on-turn-1 Duress was absent from many maindecks.

R/G Beats also wins tournaments. It has before, and it will again.

[Shock Wave]

Voltaic Key is unrestricted.

Pardon me. Voltaic Key is unrestricted, but there was a time when it was restricted. The point being made here is that we cannot restrict or unrestrict cards based on the personal bias of the players. Some players like playing with four Black Lotus in their deck yet that doesn't mean we should unrestrict it. Whether or not it "ruins their party" is not a good benchmark for restriction. What is a good benchmark, and one that the DCI has acknowledged, is considering whether a card or combo that sees play with appreciable frequency in the early game (ie. Trinisphere) wins the game outright or prevents the opponent from playing their cards. We can argue all day about what is fun about playing magic, but nobody can argue that it is "fun" when you haven't had a chance to play.

If you would like the DCI to unrestrict the other cards to see if they dominate Vintage, I welcome you to it. Necro and Bargain would likely make their way back onto the restricted list in short order.

Really? How can you be so sure? Yawgmoth's Bargain costs 6 mana to play. How often does it get into play on Turn 1? If it were playable in multiples, who would play 4!? One thing is mathematically certain: The Flash-Hulk combo will always kill the opponent on Turn 1 with greater frequency than resolving a first turn Bargain.

The Long restriction was a knee-jerk restriction. It's unclear whether Long would have actually dominated, given that Workshop was just getting its modern prison tools. Deckbuilding was also not as refined then - Mana Drain was the end-all-be-all of control decks, and the effective-on-turn-1 Duress was absent from many maindecks.

The Long restriction was certainly warranted. Whether the deck would dominate today is uncertain, but at the time, with the tools that were available, the deck was absolutely obscene.

R/G Beats also wins tournaments. It has before, and it will again.

... but R/G beats won't kill you on its first turn with any frequency and is conducive to an actual game of Magic (ie. one where both players get a turn). N'est-ce pas?

[diopter]

Pardon me. Voltaic Key is unrestricted, but there was a time when it was restricted. The point being made here is that we cannot restrict or unrestrict cards based on the personal bias of the players. Some players like playing with four Black Lotus in their deck yet that doesn't mean we should unrestrict it. Whether or not it "ruins their party" is not a good benchmark for restriction. What is a good benchmark, and one that the DCI has acknowledged, is considering whether a card or combo that sees play with appreciable frequency in the early game (ie. Trinisphere) wins the game outright or prevents the opponent from playing their cards. We can argue all day about what is fun about playing magic, but nobody can argue that it is "fun" when you haven't had a chance to play.

One can argue that because restrictions remove archetypes, that they remove some element of fun from the game for certain players, i.e. the players who liked that archetype. There is no real good criteria for restricting other than trying to maximize fun for all players involved. Flash is in a unique position - it's arguably a problem archetype (like SX), it's not a major metagame force (if you look strictly at the numbers), but there are still some people who enjoy success with it. If you're trying to maximize fun for everybody, then restricting Flash when it's already a minor player is wrong.

Really? How can you be so sure? Yawgmoth's Bargain costs 6 mana to play. How often does it get into play on Turn 1? If it were playable in multiples, who would play 4!? One thing is mathematically certain: The Flash-Hulk combo will always kill the opponent on Turn 1 with greater frequency than resolving a first turn Bargain.

I'm not opposed to unrestricting Bargain, actually - it would probably offend a lot of players' sensibilities on TMD, though.

The Long restriction was certainly warranted. Whether the deck would dominate today is uncertain, but at the time, with the tools that were available, the deck was absolutely obscene.

They didn't give the metagame a chance to acclimate to Long, though. Tendrils came out in Scourge, and they restricted Burning Wish and LED in the middle of Mirrodin block. They didn't wait to see if Mirrodin's new additions would keep combo in check. If you look at this article, you'll see that they based their restriction on goldfishing and public opinion, nothing more. In contrast, it took them over a year of collecting data on tournament turnouts before they did anything about Affinity in the rotating formats.

Also, they mention Chalice of the Void in the same article, but didn't even mention how badly it hosed Long. The DCI policy on Vintage restrictions in 2003 was not very good.

[TheAlpha]

If you don't play FoW your odds of winnings against Flash deminish quite fast... you're quite likely to lose because most permanents you can play on your first turn don't really matter to the Flash player. Actually your argument applies to a lot of plays. What if your opponent plays Turn1 Necro? Turn1 Ancestral? Turn1 Orchard Mox Oath? Or Shop 3sphere?

Did you notice how most of the cards you've mentioned are restricted, and Flash is not? Also, did you take into consideration that while the cards you've mentioned are powerful spells, that they do not immediately win you the game once they've resolved?

The point I was making is in response to nicofromtokyo were I'm trying to explain that against some plays you'll just lose (or you're very likely to lose) the game if you don't play FoW's. I actually agree with the other paragraphs in your post and your other posts regarding this topic. The Flash combo is stupid, quite as stupid as first turn Necro's. To add an argument to your Ritual + Necro = Flash + Hulk, did you consider you can even protect the Flash combo with a Pact of Negation.....

[Shock Wave]

One can argue that because restrictions remove archetypes, that they remove some element of fun from the game for certain players, i.e. the players who liked that archetype. There is no real good criteria for restricting other than trying to maximize fun for all players involved. Flash is in a unique position - it's arguably a problem archetype (like SX), it's not a major metagame force (if you look strictly at the numbers), but there are still some people who enjoy success with it. If you're trying to maximize fun for everybody, then restricting Flash when it's already a minor player is wrong.

If you're trying to maximize fun for everybody, as you seem to suggest is an intelligent approach, then nothing would ever be restricted. We can't argue about what is fun about magic, but if we can conclude that is NOT fun to lose before you get a chance to play your cards, then we can agree that Flash is a problem.

I'm not opposed to unrestricting Bargain, actually - it would probably offend a lot of players' sensibilities on TMD, though.

Well, it would be a lot of water under the bridge, seeing as how enabling a two-card combo that wins the game with high frequency on turn one must have already sent the sensible players into an uproar.

They didn't give the metagame a chance to acclimate to Long, though.

Ah, the old "acclimate to the metagame" argument. When a deck can kill the opponent with appreciable frequency, through Force of Will, has the capacity to win tournaments and has demonstrated these capabilities, there is no reason to try to acclimate to anything.

We could unrestrict Black Lotus and the metagame could "acclimate" by having every deck run Chalice of the Void and Null Rod in the main, or some other ridiculous configuration of cards. How is that a reasonable solution to having an extremely overpowered card allowed in multiples? There comes a time when the consideration of how a metagame will adjust is extraneous. We don't need to unrestrict Ancestral Recall or Black Lotus or other ridiculously powerful cards to understand that regardless of the impact to the metagame, the effect of these cards in multiples is detrimental to the format as a whole.

Also, they mention Chalice of the Void in the same article, but didn't even mention how badly it hosed Long. The DCI policy on Vintage restrictions in 2003 was not very good.

Regardless of whether the policy was good at the time, the decision was still the right one. Action is required when a deck displays the capability, with high frequency, to kill the opponent or render their cards essentially useless, all on the first turn .

[hitman]

I use to say, "Don't restrict a card unless it dominates", but at some point a card should just be restricted on principle.  What I mean by "on principle" is this; if the played archetypes and their variations don't have a reliable way to interact by the time the card in question is cast, it should be restricted.  We're all thinking the same thing when we say "on principle."  We're talking about the inability to play our cards on a regular basis in a match.  By "archetypes and their variations," I'm talking about control, aggro, and combo, along with hybrids like aggro-control and combo-control.  When control decks aren't able to deal with a deck in a reliable fashion, there's imbalance in the format.  Aggro has traditionally been able to overwhelm control in the early game and use their early game advantage to pull out a win.  Combo has traditionally been able to outrace the aggro decks.  Control has traditionally had some game against the aggro decks but were able to keep the combo decks in check.  If control no longer has the ability to regularly keep combo in check, the format will turn into aggro-control and combo.  If the format polarizes to that point, deck design and innovation will be dramatically stymied.  Vintage players are always talking about being able to play with every card but when the standard for playability is so high, you lose the practical ability to actually play with all your cards.  There needs to be balance so more cards are actually able to be played.  People can punt cartain matchups if the format is in balance because they know they will have even/good matchups against the other decks that help keep the format in balance.  I think things are getting so bad that control is just being thrown out the window and decks are becoming aggro-combo.  Even Oath has changed from a control deck to an aggro-combo deck.  Its disruption is there mainly to keep the opponent from stopping them.  Vintage is becoming the format that the outsiders complain it already is.  Why would we encourage the existence of a first/second turn deck that requires little or no skill to win with?  This "debate" is a joke.  

[Shock Wave]

Vintage is becoming the format that the outsiders complain it already is.  Why would we encourage the existence of a first/second turn deck that requires little or no skill to win with?  This "debate" is a joke. 

That's a sad fact. We're back in the Trinisphere says where the format was becoming a joke. Seriously, since the advent of Flash and Ichorid, the relevance of playskill in Vintage took a serious hit. I'm happy that more people are voicing their opinions on this issue. Hopefully, we can draw the attention of the DCI to this problem.

[diopter]

Vintage is becoming the format that the outsiders complain it already is.  Why would we encourage the existence of a first/second turn deck that requires little or no skill to win with?  This "debate" is a joke. 

That's a sad fact. We're back in the Trinisphere says where the format was becoming a joke. Seriously, since the advent of Flash and Ichorid, the relevance of playskill in Vintage took a serious hit. I'm happy that more people are voicing their opinions on this issue. Hopefully, we can draw the attention of the DCI to this problem.

I don't understand your viewpoint at all. Tournaments are being won and Top8'd by Oath, GAT, R/G Beats, Mask, Shop Aggro, and all manner of archetypes that don't win on the first turn and use creatures and interact and are blasts to play, and you have the audacity to call the format a joke? The format is in a Golden Age. Creatures are actually attacking again. Aggro is actually viable in some metagames. Vintage hasn't been this healthy in years.

Even though there are bound to be dissenters, I can't believe someone could call the format a "joke".


@Hitman:
"Control" hasn't existed in Vintage since Keeper. Tog, Control Slaver, Gifts were all combo-control. You might be lamenting the loss of Mana Drain, but rest assured, Drain was no control card - it was an enabler for broken strategies. In its heyday, however, Drain into bomb was the only top-tier broken strategy. Now that Drain is no longer in the driver seat of Vintage, the number of real archetypes and interactions  has actually increased.

[Methuselahn]

I've noticed that a lot of posts in this thread compare Flash to restricted cards like Necro, Ancestral, Trinisphere, Bargain, Fact, Gifts, and even Lotus.  The thing is, none of those cards require a counterpart other than mana to be good cards.  Flash does.  Flash is dead weight without a creature.  Comparing Flash/Creature to Ritual/Necro, is bad because of this. 

Personally, I don't see Flash as needing to be restricted.  From my experience, people can meta against it and the deck can be hated out enough so that the format is not degenerate.

[hitman]

I never said Vintage was a joke.  I said the debate over Flash is a joke.  I don't understand why you're pointing out that control hasn't been around for a long time.  That's my point.  Control is becoming less and less of a factor as time goes on.  Are you arguing that there are more viable strategies now than when Keeper was a factor?  I was saying that a lack of balance between strategies (control, combo, and aggro) causes less of the card pool to actually be playable.  My point was if control was a factor, we'd have more playables.  I never said anything about Mana Drain or blue or any imagination you may have for what I actually meant.

@ Methuselah - I agree Flash can be hated out.  Any deck can.  The point we're trying to make is that it's not good for the format to have an extremely fast, resilient deck that involves little skill to be left unrestricted.  The comparisons to cards like Necro or Bargain weren't functional comparisons.  They were comparisons of power level in relationship to casting cost.  Gifts, Fact or Fiction, Bargain, or whatever require setup, abundance of mana, appropriate knowledge of the stack/gamestate/multiple paths to victory, etc.  If cards that are so mana intensive and require a greater degree of skill to play are restricted, why isn't a two casting cost instant that ends the game upon resolution?

[Caboose]

People seem to think that every game with Flash goes "Mox, land, Flash, Hulk, Pact, Pact, Pact, I win." As a Flash player, I can assure you that that's not true. At the Meandeck Cash Bar tournament, I played about 16 games and had the nuts once. There are several games where I have to shape my hand with Brainstorms and Tutors, while trying to clear their win condition and/or Force of Will out of their hand with Thoughtseize. Flash is so fun to play because sometimes you get the nuts, and it feels like you're cheating, but also there are times you really need to work for the win. Some of my favorite games with Flash had me playing out Virulent Slivers and bashing like I'm playing Time Spiral Sealed. In the last two five-round tournaments I've played in, I've won three matches with hardcasted Slivers. The deck can be very interactive at times, and it's kind of sad that there are so many Chicken Littles crying about Flash when it hasn't been able to win anything relevant since the combo became available almost a year ago. I enjoy playing Flash. It gives me a warm feeling. There's no reason to spoil my fun 

[Thicketman]

I was just wondering if Flash was as good as I thought it was or if it was just me. I guess it's not me.

So apparently Flash is every bit as powerful as I thought and it seems a lot of people have also made this observation.

[Shock Wave]

I don't understand your viewpoint at all.

Likewise. That's why this discussion exists.

Tournaments are being won and Top8'd by Oath, GAT, R/G Beats, Mask, Shop Aggro, and all manner of archetypes that don't win on the first turn and use creatures and interact and are blasts to play, and you have the audacity to call the format a joke? The format is in a Golden Age. Creatures are actually attacking again. Aggro is actually viable in some metagames. Vintage hasn't been this healthy in years.

Yes, all manners of decks are making T8 appearances. The same could have been said when Long was at its peak. Nobody was playing it and the metagame was very diverse. Lots of decks were viable then, and lots of decks have the potential to be viable now. That's not what makes the format less desirable to play in. The problem is the reduction of playskill and competence required to pilot some very powerful archetypes and the mitigation of player interaction when these archetypes are prevalent. The more this game starts to resemble a coin flip, the more juvenile or semblant of a "joke" it becomes.

Never has there been the potential to win on Turn 1 with multiple counter backup. Never could a deck blow out the opponent without any respect for what the opponent is doing or plans to do. Equally disturbing is that awful players are tearing through highly competitive environments on the backs of very broken decks. The dismay you show at my "audacity" does not really concern me, seeing as how many other players echo my sentiments. The dissenters you speak of are in far greater numbers than it appears you are aware of.

I've noticed that a lot of posts in this thread compare Flash to restricted cards like Necro, Ancestral, Trinisphere, Bargain, Fact, Gifts, and even Lotus.  The thing is, none of those cards require a counterpart other than mana to be good cards.  Flash does.  Flash is dead weight without a creature.  Comparing Flash/Creature to Ritual/Necro, is bad because of this.

Comparing Flash/Hulk to Ritual/Necro is not a poor analogy. Both are two card combinations that require mana as enablers. Necropotence is significantly weaker without its "combo" piece because you just won't have the mana to cast it reliably until the third turn. If a card requires three turns to be effective in Vintage by itself, that doesn't scream of brokenness. Also, remember that Necropotence does nothing until you pass the turn. Trust me, I'm not arguing that Necropotence should be unrestricted. I like it fine where it is. My point is that Flash is at least comparable if not stronger and deserves equal attention.

You've stated that none of those cards require a counterpart other than mana. Yawgmoth's Bargain costs six mana. Yes, it is good by itself, after you've invested six mana into casting it. Six mana is what ... at least a few turns, and a few cards. I would consider that a multi card combo that is far more difficult to assemble than Flash and Hulk. Fact or Fiction is good on its own, no doubt. Does it win you the game? Will you survive to even cast it in today's format? We can't assume that just because a card requires another to end the game that we do not have a problem on our hands. Also, the fact that Flash requires another combo piece is almost trivial when there are many ways (and some cost 0 mana!) to find the remaining element.

[nicofromtokyo]

I don't understand your viewpoint at all. Tournaments are being won and Top8'd by Oath, GAT, R/G Beats, Mask, Shop Aggro, and all manner of archetypes that don't win on the first turn and use creatures and interact and are blasts to play, and you have the audacity to call the format a joke? The format is in a Golden Age.

By the way, side-event of the French Cup was won yesterday by Flash piloted by our French Smennen (aka Toad), and the Vintage side-event of the GP Shizuoka put 3 Flash in Top 8 (4 Flash in total, the 4th dropped out after the 1st round).

BUT, the problem is not to know if Flash is the strongest deck or not, neither if it wins all the tournaments of the world or not. Shock Wave quoted it many times : Flash breaks some basic rules of the game, and it must be punished for that.

[kicks_422]

Flash breaks some basic rules of the game, and it must be punished for that.

Don't all Vintage decks do that?

Flash is not wrecking Vintage as it did Legacy. END OF STORY. If this continues, we'll all just be screaming to ban key cards in whatever deck is the best, resulting in Legacy with Power 9.

[Shock Wave]

Don't all Vintage decks do that?

No. Most Vintage decks allow their opponents to play with their cards. Previously, the DCI had agreed that cards or combinations of cards (ie. Shop->3s) that reduce this game to goldfishing should not be allowed to exist. They've changed their tune since Flash entered the metagame, and people are rightfully wondering why.

[Moxlotus]

Don't all Vintage decks do that?

No. Most Vintage decks allow their opponents to play with their cards. Previously, the DCI had agreed that cards or combinations of cards (ie. Shop->3s) that reduce this game to goldfishing should not be allowed to exist. They've changed their tune since Flash entered the metagame, and people are rightfully wondering why.

This.

I was one of the fiercest defenders on why Trinisphere should not be restricted.  I believed that tournament dominance should be the prime reason on why the B&R list is used.  Trinisphere got the axe anyways.  Dominance is clearly not the prime reason for the DCI and I respect that--but I hate inconsistency and don't see any difference between Flash and Trinisphere.  Both are beatable, but both can just be a goldfish win with a high level of consistency and an awful lot of time can take 0 skill.  If Gifts and Trinisphere are restricted for "stupid brokeness" then I have no idea why Flash is not.  Or at the very least--Merchant Scroll.